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Thursday, August 28, 2003

New Eligibles Year by Year

Here we go, if someone can post them for the next 5-10 years, and then maintain this that would be great.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 28, 2003 at 04:20 PM | 959 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   201. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 01:14 AM (#517176)
Everybody has been missing Jimmie Lyons, who I believe should be eligible 1931. DanG, who keeps a more or less official list, said he didn't include Lyons because he's not as highly regarded as Hill or Poles. Granted. But James rates him higher than Home Run Johnson and he turns up in some of the ratings/polls cited on the Negro League threads. He ought to at least be called to everyone's attention and get considered.
   202. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 02:29 AM (#517178)
David, yes, there has been much discussion. My understanding is that:

1. Voters may boycott a candidate for one year based on "character" issues.

2. Voters may discount the player's value as you wish. Some say, "Throw out the entire 1919 season because he rendered it meaningless." Some say, "Throw out 1920, too, because he wasn't there at the finish when his team needed him." (I personally can understand throwing out 1919 though I myself don't plan on it. I can't understand throwing out 1920.)

But others probably have another take on this.
   203. Chris Cobb Posted: April 18, 2004 at 03:05 AM (#517179)
Marc, unless you are working off of different data than I have, some of the Negro-League eligibility dates you've listed are incorrect.

The rule for Negro-Leaguers, as I understand it, is 5 years after retirement or at age 45, whichever comes first, _but_ player must be retired for a year before becoming eligible. Chris J.'s list at #228 leaves out this last wrinkle. To make sure we're in agreement, I thought I'd create a list containing full eligibility data for everyone to check over and check against their records. I've included everyone on Chris J.'s list that he presents as eligible by 1934, everyone from Marc's list at #225 I or Marc see as eligible by 1934, plus some others.

Dan G.'s official listing of eligibility dates for top candidates is above at #208. All but two of the dates I give below match his, and I trust he'll correct me if my corrections are in error.

So . . .

Pete Hill, born 1880, last season 1925, eligible 1927

Bruce Petway, born 1883, last season 1925, elgible 1928 (DanG has 1931, but see d.o.b.)

Spotswood Poles, born 1889, last season 1923, eligible 1929
   204. dan b Posted: April 18, 2004 at 03:43 AM (#517180)
Thanks Chris, I was wondering how Poles could be eligible in 1925. Are you sure about the retired one year wrinkle? Where is it posted?
   205. DanG Posted: April 18, 2004 at 05:07 AM (#517181)
Some responses.

To danb: There is a thread in the archives entitled "Should we change eligibility for Negro Leaguers?" that was started 2/15/04. I think you'll find confirmation there.

To Howie: You can find MLB eligibles for 1927-32 in my favorite format in #178 above. Note that Negro League eligibles have had a few additions since that posting.

To Chris: We differ in our application of the age-45 rule. My thinking is that the player must have had his 45th birthday in the year before the election. DeMoss is a case in point. Born 9/5/89, if he were eligible in 1934, as you say, he would be only 44 years old if he were inducted in August of that year. So I think he should wait until 1935 to be eligible. Likewise, Ben Taylor, born in 1888 turns 45 in 1933, so should on the ballot prepared late in that year and be eligible for election in 1934. And Dick Redding, born in 1891, should be elgible for election in 1937.

As for Bruce Petway, I did miss his birthdate. Born in 1883 he should be eligible in 1929, not 1931 as I had it and not 1928 as you wrote. This would be the only change I would make to the listing I made in #208.
   206. Chris Cobb Posted: April 18, 2004 at 01:42 PM (#517183)
Dan G, your application of the age 45 rule seems more reasonable than mine.
   207. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 02:14 PM (#517184)
Well, I posted some eligibility dates above in #225 and Chris J. posted a correction. I adopted Chris J.'s corrections because frankly I don't give a s**t. WHO IS IN CHARGE, WHAT ARE THE CORRECT DATES?????

Does it matter. Yes, it does. If you look at the cases of Johnson and Grant and White and Monroe, here is the process of evaluating Negro Leaguers. We vote for them (or not) the first year they are eligible, and we say, well, this is just a placeholder, this is subject to change, I hope to learn more in the coming years.

In the coming years, there is discussion, discussion, discussion, and guess what. Nobody changes their mind. Nobody updates their impression. Nobody changes their pecking order. The guy stays exactly where he debuted.

So if Hill and Poles turned out to be eligible in 1925 and nobody said anything because they *thought* he was eligible in 1927 or 1929, then I can read the posts now. I'll debut Hill at #13 and then adjust as I learn a little bit about him. Yeah, right. The guy is dead meat right out of the chute.

So whoever is in charge of Negro League eligibility, please post a list ahead of time. I don't want the first inkling to be, hey, Joe Blow is eligible NOW! Surprise! It's a damn good thing Chris and I posted in INCORRECT list if that's the only way to get a better one. But the question remains, is Chris Cobb's list the gospel or are we going to get an official list that is different "some day" when it is too late to have a decent discussion about these guys?

End of rant.
   208. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 02:26 PM (#517185)
PS. Part of the problem here is this. DanG's "official" list (#208) gives us a total of 11 players to conside. So to say that Dan's is the "official" list, just go by that, well...no. E.g.:

>I purposely omitted Jimmy Lyons, who doesn't get near the raves of the other candidates listed.

DanG, you purposely omitted at least 23 other players, too. Hey everybody, don't vote for any of the bums that Dan idn't want us to consider!

Chris gives us 22. That's better. Is it the "official" list? Gosh, are there any other players worth considering? Who knows?

I counted 34 on my list and Chris responded by listing 25.

So, right now today, there is no official *and useful* list. I'm sorry I got some dates wrong, but at least in my world Tank Carr actually existed and played baseball.
   209. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 02:44 PM (#517186)
PPS. OK, NOW, end of rant.

I apologize, it is just a little frustrating trying to get this right.

Chris, here are my additions. Granted, many of these are borderline, but a few of them are very serious candidates.

Tank Carr 1940
   210. Chris Cobb Posted: April 18, 2004 at 05:57 PM (#517188)
I don't disagree with Marc on the principle of inclusion at all. I didn't remove anybody from his or Chris J.'s list because I didn't think that player worthy of consideration. I looked only at players listed as being eligible by 1934 in order to make my listing project manageable.

However . . .

I was speaking of DanG's list as official in the sense that he is the one of us who has been keeping track of _when_ players become eligible, and we need _someone_ to make a judgment on that.

Since every player _will_ become eligible, Dan's list obviously has no standing about which players can and cannot be considered by the electorate, although it will influence voters' decisions to consider a player seriously or not.

I think keeping 10-15 years ahead of current elections in creating eligibility lists for Negro-League players is necessary to doing the HoM right. I'd volunteer to be PART OF a committee to put those lists together. I would not volunteer to be responsible for the whole thing.
   211. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 06:36 PM (#517189)
It's only fair that the whiner try to contribute to the solution, so I will be happy to do that. I don't have Holway etc. in my book collection but I will roam around the HoM threads and the Web generally to try to come up with names and dates for consideration.

DanG has been posting the "official" lists and he does a good job, I did not mean to be critical of that. If he wants to do that for the Negro Leaguers too, that's great. If he wants to share that responsibility, then I will also be happy to work with Chris, DanG and whomever to keep Negro League candidate lists up to date and posted from time to time.

Thanks everyone for your positive responses.
   212. Marc Posted: April 18, 2004 at 06:50 PM (#517190)
PS. Chris and DanG, the next step, then, would be to continue to add names and to refine the eligibility dates. I will be going in that direction here.

I would propose that we go ahead and develop a list through 1940 or so. The fact is that anybody who is eligible by 1940 is pretty much of a pioneer and most of what are generally regarded as the all-time Negro League all-stars will all come after that date. Besides a lot of that work is already done, I think, and then we can also do this in two chunks rather than more.

Most importantly, since we have so little data to compare Negro Leaguers with major leaguers, I think it is helpful--at least I find it to be so--to compare a fairly large cohort of Negro Leaguers in order to be comfortable how #1 and #2 and #3, etc., on that list compare to my pecking order of major leaguers. The smaller the sample at any given time, the harder it is to make any kind of assumptions or to go by analogy. I need to know as early as possible how Pete Hill compares to other Negro League OF as an analogy to how he might compare with, say, Sherry Magee.
   213. PhillyBooster Posted: April 19, 2004 at 09:19 PM (#517191)
It's been about 5 years since DanG gave us the updated list of eligibles through 1932. As we inch closer to that year, do you think if we all ask real nicely he could provide the remainder of the decade of the 1930s in the patented format that only DanG can provide?
   214. DanG Posted: April 20, 2004 at 03:43 AM (#517192)
Because you asked nicely...

Honestly, I haven't worked at this much in the past couple months. However, I do have 1933-34 in the "patented format". I think we should seriously consider going to a 20-man ballot beginning in 1934.

<b>***1933 (August 22)?elect 2
   215. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 20, 2004 at 06:08 AM (#517193)
Looks like about half my ballot in '34 will be new candidates!
   216. PhillyBooster Posted: April 20, 2004 at 01:07 PM (#517194)
Thanks!

Those names should keep us occupied for a few weeks . . .

Let's just hope that John's post doesn't mean that he's a big fan of Bill Doak.
   217. Chris Cobb Posted: April 20, 2004 at 03:49 PM (#517195)
To return to the subject of determining eligibility for Negro-Leaguers and taking an inclusive approach to evaluating Negro-League players for the HoM:

Unless there is a source of which I am unaware, one of the difficulties that we face in dealing with Negro-League players is that information summaries about them are never organized chronologically. For our project, we have to approach the Negro-Leaguers chronologically and have information about them available in a timely fashion when they become eligible. To make that happen, we will have to build our own chronological listing: we essentially have to look, in at least a cursory fashion, at _all_ of the Negro-League candidates now, in order to put them into chronological order so that we can consider them appropriately as they become eligible.

To that end, I've put together a list of negro-league stars that includes every player who received a "should be in the Hall of Fame" vote in _Cool Papas and Double Duties_, every player listed in the top 10 at his position by Bill James in NBJHBA (for pitchers I've included everyone James lists as best for a season), and all the players I could think of who were good-to-star players from 1905-1920, since that period is underrepresented in both lists. I would add to that list any player any participant in the project wants to have added. I will post that list on the Negro-Leaguers thread momentarily. It contains 169 players.

I propose that those of us who have copies of Riley's _Encyclopedia_ and who are interested in this project work together to go through that list and collect data for all players listed. If there are half a dozen of us, it would be easy to get this done in a week or two. If you are interested in helping out with this, send me e-mail. Once we're in communication, we can decide how to divvy up the work at how to deal with doubtful cases.

Initial data collected would include

positions played
   218. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 20, 2004 at 04:12 PM (#517196)
Let's just hope that John's post doesn't mean that he's a big fan of Bill Doak.

LOL

I am a fan of Spittin' Bill, but he won't be in smelling distance of my ballot.
   219. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: April 20, 2004 at 04:28 PM (#517197)
1) how should minor-league play after the Negro Leagues folded be counted? It seems clear that there were factors other than ability that prevented a number of outstanding Negro-League players from reaching, or staying, in the major leagues even after the color barrier was broken. I think that we should count this play as part of these players' qualifications for election, and that therefore we should calculate their first year of eligibility from the end of the minor league career (or from the year they turn 45), rather than from their last year of play in the Negro Leagues or the majors.

2) how play in Latin America should be counted? Some Negro-Leaguers (American or Latin) continued playing in Latin America after they stopped playing in the U.S. Should we calculate first year of eligibility from the last year of play in the American leagues, or from the last year of play overall? Not knowing much about the quality of play in these leagues, I have no opinion on this issue.

IIRC, one of the guys profiled in Blackball Stars went to Mexico to play when he could still have played & started in the Negro Leagues.
   220. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: April 20, 2004 at 04:37 PM (#517198)
Weird. Half of my comment got eaten. In response to the first part, I definitely agree, especially in the case of Ray Dandridge; the most famous victim of being held back by an unofficial team quota.
   221. Marc Posted: April 20, 2004 at 04:39 PM (#517199)
Dumb question, but just to clarify. The general rule for Negro Leaguers is 1) same as for major leaguers, except 2) whenever they reach age 45 if they played beyond their 40th year. Or IOW, whichever comes *first.* Is that correct?
   222. Chris Cobb Posted: April 20, 2004 at 04:43 PM (#517200)
Dumb question, but just to clarify. The general rule for Negro Leaguers is 1) same as for major leaguers, except 2) whenever they reach age 45 if they played beyond their 40th year. Or IOW, whichever comes *first.* Is that correct?

Yes, but if they were still active at age 45, they become eligible after they have been retired for one year. Pop Lloyd's final season was 1932; he was 48. He becomes eligible in 1934, along with most of the rest of the greatest players of all time . . .
   223. DanG Posted: April 24, 2004 at 01:37 AM (#517201)
I took some time and did the newbies for 1935-37. The usual caveats re the Negro Leaguers as not necessarily complete nor accurate.

<b>***1935 (September 19)?elect 2
   224. RobC Posted: April 26, 2004 at 02:34 PM (#517202)
I was doing some calculations for 1927 eligible guys and I noticed (subject to token appearances approval) that Dutch Leonard was eligible. Just want to make sure everyone realizes what I didnt at first. Its not that Dutch Leonard. Its the one who isnt a real candidate for the HoM. My immediate confusion went away when I realized there were 2 Dutch Leonards. The real Dutch Leonard wont be on the ballot until 1959.
   225. Marc Posted: April 26, 2004 at 03:21 PM (#517206)
Thanks DanG. Great stuff. Boy is my ballot ever going to undergo a massive reorg. after '33!
   226. OCF Posted: April 26, 2004 at 06:10 PM (#517208)
I have a question about Hal Chase. Does anyone know if he ever received any votes (BBWAA or committee) for the Hall of Fame? I ask because I don't know the balance of two opposing forces. One is that he was really famous - that he was, while active, extravagently praised as a player. The second is that he was a game-fixing crook, and the voters of the new Hall of Fame in the 30's probably knew that about him. Of course, he was never formally banned from MLB, and even banned players, like Joe Jackson, were eligible for the HOF until they passed the "Pete Rose rule." Jackson wasn't kept out of the HOF by rule but by the voters' revulsion towards him.
   227. PhillyBooster Posted: April 26, 2004 at 06:40 PM (#517209)
Hal Chase received 11 votes (4.87%) in 1936 and 18 votes (8.96%) in 1937.
   228. DanG Posted: April 26, 2004 at 10:20 PM (#517210)
Well, its not going to matter, but H.B. Leonard started 18 games for Detroit in 1925, going 11-4 with a 95 ERA+ at age 33. That sounds a little too much and too young to be called token. He did miss 1922-23.
   229. DanG Posted: April 28, 2004 at 05:22 AM (#517211)
Marc wrote:
   230. Paul Wendt Posted: April 28, 2004 at 06:45 AM (#517212)
Thanks, Dan.
   231. karlmagnus Posted: April 28, 2004 at 01:03 PM (#517215)
I would favor it, since it increases the chances of Caruthers/Pearce/Pike, if not elected in '32, not being forgotten if a gap appears in '75.
   232. PhillyBooster Posted: April 28, 2004 at 01:16 PM (#517216)
Personally, I would have no problem logistically adding five names to my ballot, but I'm not seeing the problem that this would resolve. Perhaps if it were better explained, I could see it. Here is my response to the above posts . . .

A) Seven new names to add to our ballots? How is this any more of a problem in 1934 than it was in 1899 when most of us added 7 new names (O'Rourke, Kelly, Keefe, Stovey, Caruthers, Bennett, and Browning all were added to the Top 15 that year.)

B) Improving consensus? Why is it more important to improve consensus in 1934 when there are a smaller group (as many as 7) of very strong candidates, compared to 1931 when there is a huge group (20? 25?) of moderately strong candidates? It strikes me that weak years -- where there are over a dozen players getting first place votes and no one making every ballot -- are the ones in which to seek greater consensus, not strong years.

C) Large exodus of players from ballots? Sure, if we are adding 7 new people, we will have to remove 5 old ones (and the two previous electees), but who are those 5 old ones? They will be candidates 11 through 15 on our 1932 ballots, players who -- if we elect 5 to 10 members of our backlog by then -- are largely player who are eligible now, but not actually on our ballots! If my current #20 inches onto my ballot in 7 years as #14 or #15, what is the loss when he gets bumped back off the next year?

Basically, I see a future situation -- several years of weak candidates followed by several years of strong candidates -- and don't see a "problem" needing resolution. I.e., how is adding 10 new strong candidates in 1933 and 1934 any different in terms of the 1934 election than adding 2 or 3 strong candidates for each of the previous three years?

Next, I see a proposed solution -- expanding ballots -- and don't see how it would solve the "problem," even if we agreed that it was a problem? I.e., why is bad that we will not then be able to vote for players who we are not now voting for?
   233. jimd Posted: April 28, 2004 at 01:56 PM (#517217)
Well said, PhillyBooster.
   234. PhillyBooster Posted: April 28, 2004 at 02:21 PM (#517219)
My comment above was honestly phrased more as a question -- if there really is a problem that can be explained I would have no problem supporting an expansion. I just don't follow how the current arguments address the issue.

I strongly disagree, however, with karlmagnus's reasoning that expanding ballots is good because it would favor certain candidates. Even though I am currently voting for all 3 players he names, a change in the structure should only be done to resolve procedural problems, not substantive ones.
   235. Al Peterson Posted: April 28, 2004 at 02:41 PM (#517220)
Guess I'd side with Philly on this one. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Not seeing where the 15 person ballot has failed up to this point. If someone differs on the feeling about the current system having flaws then please explain.
   236. PhillyBooster Posted: April 28, 2004 at 02:45 PM (#517221)
Anyone got the time to do a retrospective analysis of the elections to determine how many ballot spots are necessary to replicate say, the top 4 vote getters?

Martin,

Look at the 1916 ballot results. Stovey beat Kelley by 2 votes. Had the ballot only gone 13 players deep, Joe Kelley would have won.
   237. Chris Cobb Posted: April 28, 2004 at 03:18 PM (#517222)
It seems to me that the issue that ballot expansion turns upon is this: do we as an electorate find that there are candidates for whom we would like to register some support but cannot? That is, do you think: "well, even though I see this candidate as the 20th-best player available for election to the Hall of Merit, I think he's got a decent case for election and so I want my ranking of him to give him some credit towards election." Right now, a player gets the same credit for placing 16th in the rankings, placing 20th in the rankings, and placing 35th in the rankings, meaning that if a player is not among your top 15, he's not close enough to earn credit towards election for his performance.

Expanding the ballot would be saying two things:

1) We want to be voting for the players we are ranking 16-20 because a) they have a decent case for eventual election and/or b) we're not especially clear that the guys we are ranking 14 & 15 are substantially better than the guys we've ranked 19-20, so we'd like to be giving election credit to more players in order to further diminish the arbitrariness of the election process
   238. Marc Posted: April 28, 2004 at 03:46 PM (#517223)
I agree that if it ain't broke don't fix it.

I also have a sense which I cannot document that a 20 vote ballot would actually be worse for Pearce and Pike and other players who rely on fewer/higher ballots rather than more/lower. The more/lower candidate (consensus candidate) would be helped by picking up more of the 16-20 rankings than the fewer/higher candidate would do. They (fewer/higher) are already getting most or all of the votes they will ever get.

So yes, Pearce might be 17th on a few ballots and thus not forgotten in 1975, but Beckley might be 19th on a few more and be ahead overall.

Not that that matters because I also agree that we shouldn't be changing our methodology in hopes of getting a different result.
   239. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 28, 2004 at 03:51 PM (#517224)
I agree that if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Ditto.
   240. jimd Posted: April 28, 2004 at 06:02 PM (#517225)
Anyone got the time to do a retrospective analysis of the elections to determine how many ballot spots are necessary to replicate say, the top 4 vote getters?

Slightly different question answered here.

How deep do you have to go before the result is determined?
   241. Paul Wendt Posted: April 28, 2004 at 06:41 PM (#517226)
Time out.

Dan Greenia, et al:

I have posted some info on the BBWAA nominations for "new Veterans" election in 2005, and 2003.
   242. karlmagnus Posted: April 28, 2004 at 08:35 PM (#517228)
Redigressing (#282) they've got Caruthers, but not Pearce, McVey or Start. I think we're better than them, at least at the early stuff!
   243. Marc Posted: April 28, 2004 at 08:35 PM (#517229)
Hypothesis A: In close races between potential electees, the earlier candidates (Start, Pearce, et al) are almost invariably the higher/fewer candidates (making fewer ballots but at a higher average rating) while the later candidate is the lower/more candidate.

The evidence: In 12 cases where the race was close enough that there was an exchange of the lead as shown in jimd's post (#281), the later candidate won 10 of them by "coming from behind," by being named on more/lower ballots. The only exceptions were Spalding over Sutton and Stovey over Kelley.

Hypothesis A is supported.

Hypothesis B: A change to a 20 deep ballot will hurt earlier candidates.
   244. sean gilman Posted: April 28, 2004 at 10:43 PM (#517230)
Re-redigressing (#284), I'm pretty sure the HOF doesn't consider the NA a major league. Aren't all of the NA stars in the HOF enshrined as "Pioneers" instead of Players? I don't believe the current iteration of the VC considers non-major league players, like Negro Leaguers, foriegn players, or pre-National Leaguers.
   245. EricC Posted: April 28, 2004 at 10:45 PM (#517231)
<i> I agree that if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Ditto.
   246. PhillyBooster Posted: May 17, 2004 at 11:20 AM (#631493)
Man. What are the odds that the entire thread would be preserved, except for the substantive contents?
   247. Chris Cobb Posted: May 17, 2004 at 02:05 PM (#631547)
Here's my first effort to provide a more comprehensive and consistent listing for players eligible for the HoM who played in the negro leagues. The listings I plan to post contain all players who received a vote for the Hall of Fame in _Cool Papas and Double Duties_, who were listed as top 10 at their position (or as best pitcher) by Bill James, or were named as all-stars by John Holway in more than one season. The listing of pre-1920 players is also supplemented with other good players who may have been left out because of the spotty representation of pre-1920 players in all of these venues. This post introduces the format. It includes all players from black baseball currently eligible who are still receiving serious consideration or who had their best years after 1900 (thus George Stovey, Bud Fowler, Clarence Williams, etc. are not listed, nor is Home Run Johnson), and provides a few thumbnail estimates of quality.

elig Name d.o.b. Pos career HoF BJ MVP All-Star
1909 Frank Grant 1865 2b 1886-03 64% #6-2b 0 0*

1916 Charlie Grant 1879 2b 1896-1910 0% #7-2b 3 0*

1917 Dangerfield Talbert 1878 3b 1900-11 0% 0 0*

1918 Danny McClellan (born?) p 1903-12* 0% 1 0*

1919 Mike Moore 1875 of 1894-1913 0% 0 1*

1920 Chappie Johnson 1876 c 1896-1914* 0% 0 0*
1920 Bill Monroe 1876 2b/3b 1899-1914 24% #5-2b 3 3*

1922 Jose Munoz (born?) p 1904-16 0% 0 0*

1923 Walter Ball 1877 p 1903-21 0% 3 0*
1923 Rube Foster 1879 p 1902-17* HF 5 1*
1923 "Strike" Gonzales (born?) c 1901-17* 0% 0 1*

1924 Harry Buckner (born?) p 1896-1918 0% 3 0*

1925 Phil Bradley (born?) c/1b 1905-19 0% 0 0*
1925 Jap Payne (born?) of 1902-19 0% 0 2*
1925 Steel Arm Taylor 1879 p 1903-19 0% 0 0*

1926 Bobby Winston 1880 lf 1905-21 0% 0 0*

Key

Elig. = year eligible
Name = Name by which player is most commonly known
d.o.b = date of birth
pos = primary position
career = first and last year at which the player competed either in the top-level negro leagues, a Latin American league, the major leagues, or (in the case of black ballplayers who may not have been given a chance to compete in the majors even after integration) the organized minor leagues. An * after these dates indicates that my listed career date diverges from the dates listed at the top of the player's biographical entry in Riley. All deviations from Riley are compiled and explained in a file I hope to get uploaded to the HoM yahoogroups site.
HoF = % of experts polled in _Cool Papas and Double Duties_ who selected the player for the Hall of Fame. HF in this category indicates that the player has been elected to the Hall of Fame.
BJ = Bill James ranking of the player. Remember that James did not rank Negro-League pitchers, so none of them will have a BJ ranking
MVP = number of times a player was named best player or best pitcher in the negro leagues by Bill James or was selected as MVP (Fleet Walker award) or best pitcher (George Stovey award) by John Holway. James' picks begin at 1900, with players being selected for three-year periods prior to 1920. He selects one player and one pitcher per year. Holway's awards begin in 1910. He generally selects one eastern and one western player, though his practice varies in some seasons. Holway sometimes selects pitchers as MVP.
All-Star = number of seasons player was selected as an all-star at his position by Holway. Holway's all-star picks begin in 1910. He generally selects an eastern team and a western team, although his practice varies. He sometimes includes ut or dh all-star picks in addition to regular positions. He typically selects only 1 or 2 pitchers per team, so they are less well represented by these counts than are position players, generally. (The * after the number gives a visual reminder that these are all-star seasons.)

I'll be posting a similar list through 1940, with eligibles grouped separately by season in the best DanG fashion. I hope to learn better formatting as I go.
   248. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: May 18, 2004 at 07:32 AM (#632639)
Chris - great job/thanks!

Does anyone want to repost their thoughts pro/con on whether or not we should expand the ballot to 20 players at a certain point? Should I set up a separate thread for that?
   249. sunnyday2 Posted: May 18, 2004 at 01:32 PM (#632666)
Great job, great info, Chris. This list will become extremely important in the future as we juggle the demands of 1) giving consideration to a wide range of Negro League stars, so that we don't miss anybody who was really really good, but at the same time 2) not getting bogged down with a bunch of guys who were not really really good. This list will help us accomplish both of these potentially contradictory goals.

In that spirit, we need to pay our respects to Dangerfield Talbert and Chappie Johnson and Steel Arm Taylor. And we need to refocus on Frank Grant, Monroe and Rube Foster, who are almost surely the cream of this crop.

But I think we also need to see that Charlie Grant, Walter Ball, Harry Buckner and Jap Payne could play a little. With that in mind, here is what I can contribute from my library--i.e. James' comments re. Charlie Grant. Can anybody provide some biographical info on Ball, Bucker or Payne?

Charlie Grant--#7 2B right behind Frank (were they related at all? I don't know.) James says that John McGraw actually signed Charlie in 1901 and planned to pretend that he was an Indian. In fact, his nickname is listed as "Chief Tokahoma." James goes on to say, "Probably had great talent, but career was short, and stats are unavailable."

Well, his career appears to have been only one year shorter than Monroe's. But I would doubt that he was as good as Frank or Monroe, it's just that he perhaps "looked" like an Indian. Otherwise McGraw might have tried to sign Frank or Monroe.

In sum, I might be inclined to rank Charlie somewhere around Sol White, adding to the 2B glut. But he will be behind Frank and Monroe.
   250. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 18, 2004 at 04:14 PM (#632796)
Great job, great info, Chris.

Ditto.
   251. Michael Bass Posted: May 18, 2004 at 04:19 PM (#632809)
Can we get a repost of the new eligibles for the next 5-10 years for reference? They seem to have been swallowed.
   252. DanG Posted: May 20, 2004 at 03:27 PM (#636991)
I'm not counting on this thread to be fixed anytime soon, so here is the repost of new eligibles 1927-35 (four guys deleted due to new space limit):

1927 (June 6)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

287 73.1 1907 Ed Konetchy-1b (1947)
227 52.6 1908 Dode Paskert-CF (1959)
205 50.7 1910 Hippo Vaughn-P (1966)
189 48.4 1908 Slim Sallee-P (1950)
180 42.2 1910 Duffy Lewis-LF (1979)
161 44.9 1911 Ray Caldwell-P (1967)
155 38.0 1909 Dots Miller-1b/2b (1923)
143 37.9 1911 Lefty Tyler-P (1953)
106 28.8 1914 Braggo Roth-RF (1936)
Negro Lg 1904 Pete Hill-LF (1951)
1928 (June 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

301 80.9 1909 Frank Baker-3b (1963)
266 66.1 1907 Clyde Milan-CF (1953)
232 68.0 1909 Donie Bush-SS (1972)
218 57.5 1909 Art Fletcher-SS (1950)
193 55.6 1909 Joe Wood-P/RF (1985)
161 41.9 1911 Burt Shotton-CF/LF (1962)
143 40.9 1909 Jimmy Austin-3B (1965)
137 33.4 1910 Jack Graney-LF (1978)
1929 (July 4)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

164 50.4 1911 Tilly Walker-LF/CF (1959)
140 49.7 1912 George Cutshaw-2b (1973)
171 40.1 1912 Eddie Foster-3b (1937)
139 37.1 1916 Jim Bagby-P (1954)
144 34.2 1911 Fred Toney-P (1953)
124 32.7 1913 Reb Russell-P/RF (1973)
134 30.1 1911 Earl Hamilton-P (1968)
Negro Lg 1906 Bruce Petway-C (1941)
Negro Lg 1909 Spotswood Poles-CF (1962)
1930 (July 18)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

242 79.2 1912 Del Pratt-2b (1977)
258 64.6 1910 Larry Gardner-3b (1976)
263 56.4 1910 Jake Daubert-1b (1924)
174 49.2 1910 Amos Strunk-CF (1979)
178 44.8 1914 Jeff Pfeffer-P (1972)
149 35.5 1910 Shano Collins-RF (1955)
148 25.4 1914 Hy Myers-CF (1965)
113 25.3 1918 Charlie Hollocher-SS (1940)
125 16.5 1911 Ivy Olson-SS (1965)
1931 (August 1)—elect 1
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

321 96.8 1909 Harry Hooper-RF (1974)
265 82.1 1913 Bobby Veach-LF (1945)
290 63.3 1913 George J. Burns-LF (1966)
208 43.6 1909 Rube Marquard-P (1980)
160 46.6 1913 Dutch Leonard-P (1952)
188 30.2 1914 Milt Stock-3b (1977)
159 34.8 1913 Casey Stengel-RF (1975)
142 31.1 1911 Rube Benton-P (1937)
156 25.4 1914 Max Flack-RF (1975)
134 30.2 1912 Howie Shanks-LF/3b (1941)
117 31.1 1913 Nemo Leibold-CF/RF (1977)
118 29.5 1911 Hank Gowdy-C (1966)
134 23.7 1913 Tommy Griffith-RF (1967)
115 27.3 1912 Ivy Wingo-C (1941)
Negro Lg 1918 Dave Brown-P (1925)
1932 (August 15)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

266 61.7 1913 Wilbur Cooper-P (1973)
215 68.5 1913 Hooks Dauss-P (1963)
243 60.0 1909 Babe Adams-P (1968)
227 55.9 1910 Stuffy McInnis-1B (1960)
206 50.1 1918 Ross Youngs-RF (1927)
142 36.4 1914 Everett Scott-SS (1960)
134 33.1 1912 Hank Severeid-C (1968)
157 25.3 1914 Jimmy Johnston-3B/RF (1967)
106 31.2 1914 Bill Wambsganss-2B (1985)
105 27.4 1916 Whitey Witt-CF/SS (1988)
120 23.0 1916 Carson Bigbee-LF (1964)
Negro Lg 1910 Louis Santop-C (1942)
Negro Lg 1908 Jose Mendez-P (1928)
Negro Lg 1920 Dobie Moore-SS ()
1933 (August 29)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

560 192.9 1907 Walter Johnson-P (1946)
380 85.0 1909 Zack Wheat-LF (1972)
272 73.5 1913 Heinie Groh-3B (1968)
239 70.5 1912 Roger Peckinpaugh-SS (1977)
225 72.9 1916 Urban Shocker-P (1928)
223 63.8 1913 Bob Shawkey-P (1980)
231 49.6 1913 Jack Fournier-1B (1973)
191 57.8 1913 Ray Schalk-C (1970)
178 49.2 1915 Baby Doll Jacobson-CF (1977)
191 36.8 1915 Lee Meadows-P (1963)
179 38.9 1914 Jack Tobin-RF (1969)
146 43.7 1912 George Mogridge-P (1962)
151 40.3 1917 Dutch Ruether-P (1970)
156 38.9 1915 Jesse Barnes-P (1961)
137 37.3 1915 Sherry Smith-P (1949)
161 30.5 1918 Irish Meusel-LF (1963)
139 32.1 1914 Frank Snyder-C (1962)
141 30.2 1915 Billy Southworth-RF (1969)
107 27.8 1920 Aaron Ward-2B (1961)
100 29.3 1921 Johnny Bassler-C (1979)
1934 (September 12)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

722 215.5 1905 Ty Cobb-CF (1961)
630 194.0 1908 Tris Speaker-CF (1958)
574 191.6 1908 Eddie Collins-2B (1951)
245 78.3 1916 Stan Coveleski-P (1984)
195 59.7 1913 Joe Bush-P (1974)
203 53.0 1915 Wally Pipp-1B (1965)
170 42.8 1913 Bill Doak-P (1954)
133 44.0 1920 Bucky Harris-2B (1977)
152 39.2 1912 Steve O’Neill-C (1962)
157 34.3 1913 Les Mann-LF/CF (1962)
130 35.3 1917 Joe Harris-1B (1959)
102 21.8 1917 Vic Aldridge-P (1973)
Negro Lg 1905 Pop Lloyd-SS (1964)
Negro Lg 1910 Smokey Joe Williams-P (1946)
Negro Lg 1913 Cristobel Torriente-RF (1938)
Negro Lg 1910 Ben Taylor-1B (1953)
1935 (September 26)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

351 95.3 1911 Max Carey-CF (1976)
256 78.4 1915 Carl Mays-P (1971)
202 59.8 1915 Ken Williams-LF (1959)
200 54.0 1914 George H. Burns-1B (1978)
174 57.5 1916 Howard Ehmke-P (1959)
183 46.4 1915 Art Nehf-P (1960)
128 43.5 1921 Johnny Mostil-CF (1970)
111 31.2 1915 Wally Gerber-SS (1951)
118 29.4 1919 Jack Scott-P (1959)
118 29.3 1916 George Harper-RF (1978)
125 27.0 1916 Jack Smith-CF/RF (1972)
104 24.8 1920 Elam Vangilder-P (1977)
094 21.3 1920 Earl Smith-C (1963)
116 14.5 1917 Joe Dugan-3B (1982)
070 18.3 1922 Joe Hauser-1B (1997)
Negro Lg 1910 Bingo DeMoss-2B (1965)
   253. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 20, 2004 at 04:18 PM (#637080)
As usual, thanks Dan!
   254. Chris Cobb Posted: May 20, 2004 at 06:10 PM (#637238)
To supplement DanG's lists, here are listings for Negro League eligibles, 1927-35. Dan's lists have pretty much all the top candidates already, but there may some additional players here who are ballot-worthy.

HF% -- from expert voting in _Cool Papas and Double Duties_
BJ -- Bill James positonal ranking in _NBJHBA_
MVP -- Sum of Bill James' best player and best pitcher awards and John Holway's MVP and best pitcher awards
All-Star -- number of times player designated as seasonal all-star by John Holway


1927 (June 6)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
68% 01-25 Pete Hill-CF/LF (1880) #4 lf - 2 - 5*
08% 09-21 Frank Wickware-P (1888) - 2 - 1*
00% 14-21 Horace Jenkins-OF (??)- 1 - 2*

1928 (June 20)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 07-22 Sam Mongin-3B (1884) - 0 - 1*

1929 (July 4)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
52% 09-23 Spotswood Poles-CF (1889) #4 cf - 3 - 3*
44% 06-25 Bruce Petway-C (1883) #5 c - 1 - 7*
00% 09-23 Zack Pettus-1B/C (1884) - 0 - 2*

1930 (July 18)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
36% 13-24 John Donaldson-P (1892) - 2.5 - 1*
00% 04-26 Candy Jim Taylor-3B (1884) #9 3b - 0 - 5*
00% 10-24 Doc Wiley-C (1892) - 1 - 3*
00% 09-24 Jess Barbour-LF (??) - 0 - 5*
00% 08-24 Tully McAdoo-1B (??) - 0 - 0*

1931 (August 1)—elect 1
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
12% 10-25 Jimmy Lyons-LF(??) #5 cf - 2 - 2*
08% 18-25 Dave Brown-P (1896) - 0- 3*
00% 10-25 George Shively-OF (??) - 2 - 7*
00% 13-25 Blainey Hall-LF (1889) - 0 - 6*
00% 11-25 Leroy Grant-1B (??) - 0 - 5*
00% 15-25 Dick Whitworth-P (??) - 1 - 3*
00% 04-25 Brodie (Billy) Francis-3B (??) - 0 - 0*
00% 10-25 Judy Gans-LF (??) - 0 - 2*
00% 11-25 Dicta Johnson-P (??) - 0 - 0*

1932 (August 15)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
76% 09-26 Louis Santop-C (1890) #2 c - 7 - 7*
72% 08-26 Jose Mendez-P/SS/OF (1887) - 2 - 4*
28% 20-26 Dobie Moore-SS (1893) #4 ss - 1 - 6*
00% 00-26 Luis Padron-P/OF (??) - 0 - 0*
00% 10-26 Bill Pierce-C/1B (??) - 0 - 2*

1933 (August 29)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 21-27 Pablo Mesa-OF (1902) - 0 - 0*
00% 16-27 Bartolo Portuondo-3B (??) - 0 - 3*

1934 (September 12)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 06-32 Pop Lloyd-SS/1B (1884) #1 ss - 8 - 13*
HF 10- 32 Smokey Joe Williams-P - 9.5 - 6*
96% 13-28 Christobal Torriente-OF (1895) #2 cf - 0 - 9*
80% 10-29 Ben Taylor-1B/P (1888) #3 1b - 0 - 8*
00% 08-28 Jules Thomas-CF (??) - 0- 6*
00% 05-28 Big Bill Gatewood-P (??) - 1 - 1*
00% 11-28 Hurley McNair-OF (1888) #10 lf - 0 - 2*
00% 18-28 Valentin Dreke-CF (1898) - 0 - 1*
00% 09-28 Pete Duncan-LF (??) - 0 - 0*

1935 (September 26)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
16% 10-30 Bingo DeMoss-2B (1889) #1 2b - 0 - 4*
04% 15-30 Bernardo Baro-OF (??) - 0 - 1*
00% 17-29 Tank Carr-1B (1895) #5 1b - 0 - 1*
00% 15-29 Charles Blackwell-OF (??) #9 cf - 0 - 2*
00% 09-31 Pelayo Chacon-SS (1889) #11 ss - 0 - 3*
   255. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 20, 2004 at 07:31 PM (#637502)
Kudos to you, Chris!
   256. sunnyday2 Posted: May 20, 2004 at 10:27 PM (#638031)
This is gonna be great. I saidonce before that we have as many qualified Negro League candidates during the drought years as we do major leaguers. Now testing that, I count 21 MLers who are worthy of consideration--by count I mean that I added together their WS and WARP, and if it added up to 300, I counted 'em. So that count could change a bit, but I'll say 20-22 for now.

Among the Negro Leaguers I count 14 that I want to consider. in this case, I counted players who earned any votes at all in the Cool Dudes book balloting AND won at least one hypothetical MVP, OR who won at least two HMVPs.

Now I'm sure that the 14 are not all as good as the 21st MLer. I would guess that the 14th Negro Leaguer is probably only as good as, say, the 42nd MLer. But right now we don't know which is which, so we've got to learn more, and I want to learn about those 14, at a minimum.

My gut tells me that if you rank order the two groups, the right thing to do will be to take approx. 3 MLers for each NLer, but that is just in gross terms. You've also got to consider the individuals involved. But with that as a gross methodology, and considering that we will elect 11 during these years (some of them might--but probably not--be backlog) I come up with a list something like this.

1. Cobb
2. Speaker
3. Johnson--though the Big Train could move up
4. E. Collins
5. Pop Lloyd
6. Baker
7. Torriente
8. Williams
9. Carey
10. Santop
11. Wheat

This off-the-top list, however, is too heavy with ML OFers, so P like Coveleski and IF like Heinie Groh will also be a factor, I think. And among the NLs I didn't even get to Ben Taylor and Jose Mendez. So much to learn, so little time.
   257. DanG Posted: May 27, 2004 at 05:57 PM (#647671)
Thanks to David Foss for the O'Doul and O'Farrell links. Here are the MLB new eligibles for 1936-42.

***1936 (October 10)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

476 135.3 1911 Pete Alexander-P (1950)
356 99.5 1914 Harry Heilmann-RF (1951)
292 76.8 1915 George Sisler-1B (1973)
269 68.5 1915 Dave Bancroft-SS (1972)
235 60.2 1913 Cy Williams-CF (1974)
184 49.6 1920 Bob Meusel-LF/RF (1977)
153 39.5 1921 Curt Walker-RF (1955)
125 41.2 1919 Ira Flagstead-CF (1940)
121 30.3 1917 Hal Carlson-P (1930)
108 24.9 1921 Johnny Morrison-P (1966)
110 24.1 1921 Bubbles Hargrave-C (1969)
***1937 (October 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

314 73.5 1914 Edd Roush-CF (1988)
245 68.3 1913 Wally Schang-C (1965)
177 45.3 1918 Bill Sherdel-P (1968)
148 39.4 1921 Bibb Falk-LF (1989)
136 35.1 1921 Pete Donohue-P (1988)
129 26.5 1921 Earl Sheely-1B (1952)
108 28.6 1921 Rip Collins-P (1968)
088 21.3 1918 Cy Perkins-C (1963)
***1938 (November 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

209 66.6 1920 Eddie Rommel-P (1970)
198 58.7 1921 Lu Blue-1B (1958)
193 44.7 1916 George Kelly-1B (1984)
183 44.9 1916 Charlie Jamieson-LF (1969)
149 35.9 1914 Rube Bressler-LF/P (1966)
133 25.6 1916 Clarence Mitchell-P (1963)
109 26.8 1918 Cliff Heathcote-RF (1939)
107 17.2 1920 Hod Ford-SS/2B (1977)
***1939 (November 21)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

292 90.5 1914 Red Faber-P (1976)
315 83.1 1912 Eppa Rixey-P (1963)
277 87.8 1921 Joe Sewell-SS/3B (1990)
287 81.4 1909 Jack Quinn-P (1946)
302 73.1 1913 Rabbit Maranville-SS (1954)
141 34.1 1924 Ray Kremer-P (1965)
139 33.3 1924 Glenn Wright-SS (1984)
128 31.9 1924 Sam “Dolly” Gray-P (1953)
121 31.2 1924 Taylor Douthit-CF (1986)
110 32.8 1924 Harry Rice-CF/RF (1971)
104 22.6 1920 Bernie Friberg-3B/2B (1958)
100 21.7 1922 Bob Fothergill-LF (1938)
***1940 (December 5)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

327 90.5 1916 Sam Rice-RF (1974)
286 73.7 1917 Burleigh Grimes-P (1985)
270 67.7 1916 Joe Judge-1B (1963)
240 72.2 1912 Herb Pennock-P (1948)
241 71.8 1918 Dolf Luque-P (1957)
231 72.6 1919 George Uhle-P (1985)
224 63.0 1924 Hack Wilson-CF (1948)
202 66.4 1921 Marty McManus-2B/3B (1966)
201 61.6 1923 Willie Kamm-3B (1988)
190 52.7 1921 Riggs Stephenson-LF (1985)
193 49.4 1923 George Grantham-2B/1B (1954)
156 47.3 1919 Muddy Ruel-C (1963)
144 39.1 1923 Lefty O’Doul-LF (1969)
144 35.2 1923 Sparky Adams-2B/3B (1989)
105 30.7 1929 Johnny Frederick-CF (1977)
102 31.3 1924 Milt Gaston-P (1996)
106 28.6 1923 Joe Shaute-P (1970)
128 18.1 1922 Andy High-3B (1981)
***1941 (December 19)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

756 237.5 1915 Babe Ruth-RF/LF (1948)
502 144.1 1916 Rogers Hornsby-2B (1963)
274 69.5 1922 Pie Traynor-3B (1972)
241 78.3 1922 Dazzy Vance-P (1961)
245 69.9 1915 Sad Sam Jones-P (1966)
227 61.1 1925 Earle Combs-CF (1976)
184 64.7 1924 Max Bishop-2B (1962)
161 40.4 1918 Bob O’Farrell-C (1988)
129 37.6 1923 Larry Benton-P (1953)
119 37.0 1927 Lefty Stewart-P (1974)
141 28.6 1924 Hughie Critz-2B (1980)
***1942 (January 2)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

278 86.4 1924 Bill Terry-1B (1989)
205 65.4 1919 Tom Zachary-P (1969)
196 56.0 1921 Bing Miller-RF (1966)
211 48.3 1923 Travis Jackson-SS (1987)
177 52.8 1924 Firpo Marberry-RP (1976)
193 47.2 1924 Fred Lindstrom-3B/CF (1981)
198 36.8 1918 Charlie Grimm-1B (1983)
156 43.7 1926 Alvin “General” Crowder-P (1972)
130 41.5 1927 Watty Clark-P (1972)
122 31.7 1928 George Earnshaw-P (1976)
114 32.5 1928 George Blaeholder-P (1947)
096 26.2 1928 Bill Walker-P (1966)
095 24.3 1930 George Watkins-RF (1970)
103 20.2 1926 Mark Koenig-SS (1993)
   258. PhillyBooster Posted: May 28, 2004 at 01:35 PM (#648715)
Great stuff! Thanks, Dan.

I hadn't had all the stats in front of me before, but this seems like a much weaker group than I had initially assumed. Two or three of those years don't really have a clear first-ballot type guy.
   259. thok Posted: May 30, 2004 at 10:16 PM (#652046)
There's not going to be a lack of candidates though, since 1934 has a lot of good candidates, and there are probably more Negro Leaguers to fill in the gaps.

For example, George Sisler probably will still be on the ballot in 1940 and possibly in 1942.
   260. robc Posted: June 02, 2004 at 02:35 PM (#654950)
DanG,

Its been a long time since the token appearance thread, but shouldnt Donie Bush be 1929? 10 games in the field would be a token appearance following a skipped season, but at the end of a career, wasnt 10 the cutoff for a "real" season if it followed a full season? Thats how my program works apparently, because it pushed Wood to 1929.
   261. PhillyBooster Posted: June 02, 2004 at 08:48 PM (#655557)
For example, George Sisler probably will still be on the ballot in 1940 and possibly in 1942.

If he's still on the ballot because Jake Beckley got elected before him, then that sounds about right.
   262. DanG Posted: June 03, 2004 at 02:08 PM (#657035)
shouldnt Donie Bush be 1929?

Rob, you're absolutely right. Glad you're watching my back. Could you post or email me your list for 1928-42?

I briefly entertained the idea we should change the rule to say "10 games or less", then decided not to push for it. I switched Bush and forgot to put him back.

If we were writing the rule now I would favor the rule to be a combination of games and plate appearances. A sum of, say, 40 or less would be a token season.
   263. DanG Posted: June 12, 2004 at 09:52 PM (#673551)
Chris Cobb gave these dates for NL eligibles in the 1926 Results thread:

Oliver Marcelle 1936
Dick Redding 1937
Chino Smith 1937
Heavy Johnson 1939
Nip Winters 1939
John Beckwith 1940
Bullet Rogan 1940
Andy Cooper 1942
Oscar Charleston 1943
Bill Foster 1943
Judy Johnson 1943
Dick Lundy 1943
Fats Jenkins 1944
Webster McDonald 1946

Lundy has been corrected per the discussion. Then there is the question of exactly how the age-45 rule is to be applied. Depending on whether the cutoff date is January 1 or July 1, Stearns and Suttles are eligible in 1946 or 1947.

Also, this thread is not being listed in the Hot Topics sidebar, so it's been somewhat overlooked. Maybe this time?
   264. robc Posted: June 13, 2004 at 06:17 PM (#674188)
DanG,

Here are my lists, starting with '29. As from before, I may miss a 1/2 pitcher 1/2 fielder type of player. It happened in 1928. Also, no negro leaguers on my list, its a pull from the Lehman database. A lot more cruft in my list than Dan's.

1929:
TONY BOECKEL,1923
DONIE BUSH,1923
GEORGE CUTSHAW,1923
EDDIE FOSTER,1923
LARRY KOPF,1923
DOC LAVAN,1923,1924 -> 4
MIKE MENOSKY,1923
TILLY WALKER,1923
JIM BAGBY,1923
EARL HAMILTON,1923,1924 -> 3
FRED TONEY,1923

1930:
EDDIE AINSMITH,1924
SHANO COLLINS,1924,1925 -> 2
JAKE DAUBERT,1924
LARRY GARDNER,1924
CHARLIE HOLLOCHER,1924
HY MYERS,1924,1925 -> 4
IVY OLSON,1924
RAY POWELL,1924
DEL PRATT,1924
AMOS STRUNK,1924
GUY MORTON,1924
JEFF PFEFFER,1924

1931:
GEORGE BURNS,1925
MAX FLACK,1925
HANK GOWDY,1925,1929 -> 10,1930 -> 16
TOMMY GRIFFITH,1925
WALTER HOLKE,1925
HARRY HOOPER,1925
ERNIE JOHNSON,1925
BOB JONES,1925
NEMO LEIBOLD,1925
WALTER SCHMIDT,1925
HOWIE SHANKS,1925
ELMER SMITH,1925
CASEY STENGEL,1925
MILT STOCK,1925,1926 -> 3
BOBBY VEACH,1925
IVEY WINGO,1925,1926 -> 7,1929 -> 1
RUBE BENTON,1925
VEAN GREGG,1925
RUBE MARQUARD,1925
JOE OESCHGER,1925
ALLAN RUSSELL,1925

1932:
CARSON BIGBEE,1926
JIMMY JOHNSTON,1926
STUFFY MCINNIS,1926,1927 -> 1
JOHNNY RAWLINGS,1926
EVERETT SCOTT,1926
HANK SEVEREID,1926
BILL WAMBSGANSS,1926
WHITEY WITT,1926
ROSS YOUNGS,1926
BABE ADAMS,1926
WILBUR COOPER,1926
HOOKS DAUSS,1926
ALLEN SOTHORON,1926
   265. robc Posted: June 13, 2004 at 06:25 PM (#674212)
More of my lists. The 1931 George Burns is the NL one, the 1935 is the AL one. Neither was married to Gracie Allen as far as I know.

1933:
JOHNNY BASSLER,1927
JACK FOURNIER,1927
HEINIE GROH,1927
BABY DOLL JACOBSON,1927
IRISH MEUSEL,1927
ROGER PECKINPAUGH,1927
BABE PINELLI,1927
RAY SCHALK,1927,1928 -> 2,1929 -> 5
FRANK SNYDER,1927
BILLY SOUTHWORTH,1927,1929 -> 19
JACK TOBIN,1927
AARON WARD,1927,1928 -> 6
ZACK WHEAT,1927
JESSE BARNES,1927
ELMER JACOBS,1927
WALTER JOHNSON,1927
HUGH MCQUILLAN,1927
LEE MEADOWS,1927,1928 -> 4,1929 -> 1
GEORGE MOGRIDGE,1927
DUTCH RUETHER,1927
BOB SHAWKEY,1927
URBAN SHOCKER,1927,1928 -> 1
SHERRY SMITH,1927

1934:
CLYDE BARNHART,1928
EDDIE BROWN,1928
TY COBB,1928
EDDIE COLLINS,1928,1929 -> 9,1930 -> 3
CHICK GALLOWAY,1928
BUCKY HARRIS,1928,1929 -> 7,1931 -> 4
JOE HARRIS,1928
LES MANN,1928
STEVE O'NEILL,1928
WALLY PIPP,1928
HEINIE SAND,1928
TRIS SPEAKER,1928
RUSS WRIGHTSTONE,1928
VIC ALDRIDGE,1928
JOE BUSH,1928
STAN COVELESKI,1928
BILL DOAK,1928,1929 -> 3
SLIM HARRISS,1928
JIMMY RING,1928

1935:
GEORGE BURNS,1929
MAX CAREY,1929
JOE DUGAN,1929,1931 -> 8
WALLY GERBER,1929
MIKE GONZALEZ,1929,1931 -> 15,1932 -> 17
GEORGE HARPER,1929
JOHNNY MOSTIL,1929
EARL SMITH,1929,1930 -> 8
JACK SMITH,1929
KEN WILLIAMS,1929
HOWARD EHMKE,1929,1930 -> 3
CARL MAYS,1929
ART NEHF,1929
JACK SCOTT,1929
ELAM VANGILDER,1929

1936:
DAVE BANCROFT,1930
IRA FLAGSTEAD,1930
JOHNNY GOOCH,1930,1933 -> 37
SAMMY HALE,1930
BUBBLES HARGRAVE,1930
HARRY HEILMANN,1930,1932 -> 15
BOB MEUSEL,1930
FRANK O'ROURKE,1930,1931 -> 8
GEORGE SISLER,1930
HOMER SUMMA,1930
ZACK TAYLOR,1930,1931 -> 8,1932 -> 21,1933 -> 16,1934 -> 4,1935 -> 26
CURT WALKER,1930
CY WILLIAMS,1930
PETE ALEXANDER,1930
HAL CARLSON,1930
JOE GENEWICH,1930
JOHNNY MORRISON,1930
   266. robc Posted: June 13, 2004 at 06:32 PM (#674236)
1937:
LES BELL,1931
BIBB FALK,1931
CY PERKINS,1931,1934 -> 1
EDD ROUSH,1931
WALLY SCHANG,1931
EARL SHEELY,1931
PHIL TODT,1931
RIP COLLINS,1931
PETE DONOHUE,1931,1932 -> 4

1938:
RAY BLADES,1932
LU BLUE,1932,1933 -> 1
RUBE BRESSLER,1932
HOD FORD,1932,1933 -> 5
CLIFF HEATHCOTE,1932
CHARLIE JAMIESON,1932
GEORGE KELLY,1932
FREDDY LEACH,1932
JAKIE MAY,1932
CLARENCE MITCHELL,1932
EDDIE ROMMEL,1932
BILL SHERDEL,1932

1939:
TAYLOR DOUTHIT,1933
LEW FONSECA,1933
BOB FOTHERGILL,1933
BERNIE FRIBERG,1933
JOHNNY HODAPP,1933
RABBIT MARANVILLE,1933,1935 -> 23
VAL PICINICH,1933
HARRY RICE,1933
JOE SEWELL,1933
GLENN WRIGHT,1933,1935 -> 9
RED FABER,1933
SAM GRAY,1933
RAY KREMER,1933
GEORGE PIPGRAS,1933,1934 -> 2,1935 -> 5
JACK QUINN,1933
EPPA RIXEY,1933
SLOPPY THURSTON,1933

1940:
SPARKY ADAMS,1934
BILL CISSELL,1934,1937 -> 34,1938 -> 38
JOHNNY FREDERICK,1934
GEORGE GRANTHAM,1934
CHARLIE GRIMM,1934,1935 -> 2,1936 -> 39
HARVEY HENDRICK,1934
ANDY HIGH,1934
DON HURST,1934
JOE JUDGE,1934
WILLIE KAMM,1934,1935 -> 6
MARTY MCMANUS,1934
ED MORGAN,1934
LEFTY O'DOUL,1934
SAM RICE,1934
MUDDY RUEL,1934
RIGGS STEPHENSON,1934
HACK WILSON,1934
MILT GASTON,1934
BURLEIGH GRIMES,1934
RAY KOLP,1934
DOLF LUQUE,1934,1935 -> 2
HERB PENNOCK,1934
JOE SHAUTE,1934
GEORGE UHLE,1934,1936 -> 7
   267. robc Posted: June 13, 2004 at 06:37 PM (#674256)
last group for awhile, up thru 44. Let me know Ive any errors and/or omissions. My system tends to miss players who were both a pitcher and a field player, but it caught than Ruth guy, which is good.

1941:
MAX BISHOP,1935
EARLE COMBS,1935
ADAM COMOROSKY,1935
HUGHIE CRITZ,1935
ROGERS HORNSBY,1935,1936 -> 2,1937 -> 20
BOB O'FARRELL,1935
BABE RUTH,1935
AL SPOHRER,1935
PIE TRAYNOR,1935,1937 -> 5
LARRY BENTON,1935
SAM JONES,1935
LEFTY STEWART,1935
DAZZY VANCE,1935

1942:
JACK BURNS,1936
TRAVIS JACKSON,1936
MARK KOENIG,1936
HAL LEE,1936
FREDDY LINDSTROM,1936
BING MILLER,1936
GLENN MYATT,1936
BILL TERRY,1936
BILLY URBANSKI,1936,1937 -> 1
GEORGE WATKINS,1936
RAY BENGE,1936,1938 -> 9
GEORGE BLAEHOLDER,1936
WATTY CLARK,1936,1937 -> 2
ALVIN CROWDER,1936
GEORGE EARNSHAW,1936
FIRPO MARBERRY,1936
FLINT RHEM,1936
TOM ZACHARY,1936

1943:
JIM BOTTOMLEY,1937
MICKEY COCHRANE,1937
FRANKIE FRISCH,1937
CHICK HAFEY,1937
BABE HERMAN,1937,1945 -> 37
SHANTY HOGAN,1937
ROY JOHNSON,1937,1938 -> 7
SKI MELILLO,1937
JOHNNY MOORE,1937,1945 -> 7
JACK ROTHROCK,1937
FRED SCHULTE,1937
JIMMIE WILSON,1937,1938 -> 3,1939 -> 4,1940 -> 16
SHERIFF BLAKE,1937
LLOYD BROWN,1937,1940 -> 18
BEN CANTWELL,1937
JESSE HAINES,1937
PAT MALONE,1937
BOB SMITH,1937
VIC SORRELL,1937
TOMMY THOMAS,1937
RUBE WALBERG,1937

1944:
ETHAN ALLEN,1938
KIKI CUYLER,1938
JIMMY DYKES,1938,1939 -> 2
WOODY ENGLISH,1938
LOU GEHRIG,1938,1939 -> 8
GOOSE GOSLIN,1938
MULE HAAS,1938
BUCK JORDAN,1938
SAM LESLIE,1938
JOHN STONE,1938
JOE STRIPP,1938
TOMMY THEVENOW,1938
ED BRANDT,1938
GUY BUSH,1938,1945 -> 4
WES FERRELL,1938,1939 -> 3,1940 -> 1,1941 -> 4
BILL HALLAHAN,1938
WAITE HOYT,1938
RED LUCAS,1938
   268. DanG Posted: June 14, 2004 at 07:44 PM (#676402)
Thanks very much for the lists, Rob!

Examining differences between Rob’s list and mine.

1929: Reb Russell is on my list. This is one of those instances that Rob mentions, where a pitcher/hitter combo slips through his net.

1931: Dutch Leonard is on my list. Rob’s program likely has him eligible in 1927. After a full year in 1921, Dutch was out of MLB in 1922-23. He came back and pitched 51 IP in 1924 and 126 IP in 1925. IMO, that last year qualifies as semi-regular play and restarts the eligibility clock. Also, he would be only 34 years old for the 1927 election; a bit older than that is preferable.

1931: Vean Gregg is on Rob’s list. We already had him eligible in 1924, age 38. In 1925 he returned at age 40 and pitched 26 G, 74 IP. This amount of play might possibly be considered semi-regular, but we don’t restart the clock after a guy is already on the ballot.

1935: Joe Hauser is on my list. A minor league hero more than anything, he probably didn’t play enough in MLB to hit Rob’s radar. Actually, he was still productive in the minors through 1936 (age 36 January 1935), so a later eligibility date may be better.

1938: Bill Sherdel is on Rob’s list. Since he only pitched and played in 4 games in 1932, he is on my list for 1937.

1940: Charlie Grimm is on Rob’s list; my list has him for 1942. This is a judgment call, for sure. After half time play in 1934, he played only 2 G in 1935. He came back in 1936 with 39 G, 139 PA and 35 G at 1B. IMO, that last year restarts the clock, since he played in >25% of his team’s games, mostly as a starting player. Also, it is not far removed from his full-time years. But, I could see it either way; he’s old enough (age 41) for the 1940 election. And he’s no HoMer in any case.

1942: Bill Walker is on my list. Perhaps his career was too short (<1500 IP) to hit Rob’s radar. But he packed enough value into that time to sneak onto my list.

1944: Ripper Collins is on my list; Rob likely has him for 1947. Like Grimm, a judgment call. After a full year in 1938, he was out of MLB in 1939-40. He came back in 1941 as a bad pinch hitter (65 OPS+, 5 RC). Sure, he played 49 G but had only 70 PA and only 14 G in the field. IMO, that’s not enough to restart the clock and he is nearly 40 years old for the ’44 election. Also, unlike Grimm, there is a gap between that final year and the rest of his career. But I could see it either way, and in any case he’s no HoMer.

I still need to look up the lesser lights on Rob's list to see if I want to add any of those to the "official" list.
   269. robc Posted: June 18, 2004 at 07:54 PM (#685660)
On the Grimm/Collins thing. I think my program uses 40 G for restarting the clock.
   270. DanG Posted: July 28, 2004 at 05:31 PM (#760936)
New eligibles 1932-36 with updated WARP3.

1932 (August 15)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

266 65.1 1913 Wilbur Cooper-P (1973)
215 70.4 1913 Hooks Dauss-P (1963)
243 60.1 1909 Babe Adams-P (1968)
227 51.1 1910 Stuffy McInnis-1B (1960)
206 59.6 1918 Ross Youngs-RF (1927)
142 38.5 1914 Everett Scott-SS (1960)
134 37.0 1912 Hank Severeid-C (1968)
157 32.0 1914 Jimmy Johnston-3B/RF (1967)
106 25.8 1914 Bill Wambsganss-2B (1985)
105 28.2 1916 Whitey Witt-CF/SS (1988)
120 27.2 1916 Carson Bigbee-LF (1964)
Negro Lg 1910 Louis Santop-C (1942)
Negro Lg 1908 Jose Mendez-P (1928)
Negro Lg 1920 Dobie Moore-SS ()
1933 (August 29)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

560 197.9 1907 Walter Johnson-P (1946)
380 95.2 1909 Zack Wheat-LF (1972)
272 83.5 1913 Heinie Groh-3B (1968)
239 69.9 1912 Roger Peckinpaugh-SS (1977)
225 73.6 1916 Urban Shocker-P (1928)
223 65.5 1913 Bob Shawkey-P (1980)
231 50.9 1913 Jack Fournier-1B (1973)
191 62.7 1913 Ray Schalk-C (1970)
178 50.8 1915 Baby Doll Jacobson-CF (1977)
191 46.0 1915 Lee Meadows-P (1963)
179 40.9 1914 Jack Tobin-RF (1969)
146 42.0 1912 George Mogridge-P (1962)
151 34.4 1917 Dutch Ruether-P (1970)
156 36.9 1915 Jesse Barnes-P (1961)
137 36.1 1915 Sherry Smith-P (1949)
161 38.4 1918 Irish Meusel-LF (1963)
139 43.1 1914 Frank Snyder-C (1962)
141 36.5 1915 Billy Southworth-RF (1969)
107 26.6 1920 Aaron Ward-2B (1961)
100 33.2 1921 Johnny Bassler-C (1979)
1934 (September 12)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

722 206.3 1905 Ty Cobb-CF (1961)
630 188.6 1908 Tris Speaker-CF (1958)
574 182.8 1908 Eddie Collins-2B (1951)
245 80.8 1916 Stan Coveleski-P (1984)
195 64.0 1913 Joe Bush-P (1974)
203 48.1 1915 Wally Pipp-1B (1965)
170 45.7 1913 Bill Doak-P (1954)
133 43.0 1920 Bucky Harris-2B (1977)
152 48.5 1912 Steve O’Neill-C (1962)
157 39.1 1913 Les Mann-LF/CF (1962)
130 32.5 1917 Joe Harris-1B (1959)
093 36.2 1920 Slim Harriss-P (1963)
102 22.5 1917 Vic Aldridge-P (1973)
110 23.4 1917 Jimmy Ring-P (1965)
Negro Lg 1905 Pop Lloyd-SS (1964)
Negro Lg 1910 Smokey Joe Williams-P (1946)
Negro Lg 1913 Cristobel Torriente-RF (1938)
Negro Lg 1910 Ben Taylor-1B (1953)
1935 (September 26)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

351 99.0 1911 Max Carey-CF (1976)
256 69.4 1915 Carl Mays-P (1971)
202 58.5 1915 Ken Williams-LF (1959)
200 46.7 1914 George H. Burns-1B (1978)
174 58.2 1916 Howard Ehmke-P (1959)
183 42.3 1915 Art Nehf-P (1960)
128 41.2 1921 Johnny Mostil-CF (1970)
111 30.9 1915 Wally Gerber-SS (1951)
118 30.4 1919 Jack Scott-P (1959)
118 32.2 1916 George Harper-RF (1978)
125 30.7 1916 Jack Smith-CF/RF (1972)
104 28.4 1920 Elam Vangilder-P (1977)
094 27.1 1920 Earl Smith-C (1963)
116 19.3 1917 Joe Dugan-3B (1982)
Negro Lg 1910 Bingo DeMoss-2B (1965)
1936 (October 10)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

476 144.4 1911 Pete Alexander-P (1950)
356 98.1 1914 Harry Heilmann-RF (1951)
292 68.2 1915 George Sisler-1B (1973)
269 76.9 1915 Dave Bancroft-SS (1972)
235 65.6 1913 Cy Williams-CF (1974)
184 50.1 1920 Bob Meusel-LF/RF (1977)
153 42.9 1921 Curt Walker-RF (1955)
125 38.7 1919 Ira Flagstead-CF (1940)
121 36.8 1917 Hal Carlson-P (1930)
108 30.2 1921 Johnny Morrison-P (1966)
110 32.0 1921 Bubbles Hargrave-C (1969)
Negro Lg 1918 Oliver Marcelle-3B (1949)
   271. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 29, 2004 at 04:30 AM (#762675)
Trying to move this to hot topics . . .
   272. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 29, 2004 at 04:35 AM (#762680)
Figured this out - threads older than a month are automatically 'closed'. This precludes them from going to hot topics.

So if you post to a thread and it doesn't go to hot topics, let me know, so that I can reopen the thread.

This new system is not Hall of Merit friendly at all. It is much more condusive to something like Clutch Hits.
   273. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 29, 2004 at 09:49 PM (#763979)
Figured this out - threads older than a month are automatically 'closed'. This precludes them from going to hot topics.

Anyway to override this, Joe?
   274. DavidFoss Posted: July 29, 2004 at 10:03 PM (#763995)
The Plaque Room also needs to be "reopened".
   275. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 29, 2004 at 10:26 PM (#764016)
The Plaque Room also needs to be "reopened".

Still working on that, David. Hopefully this week I'll be the full-time "curator."
   276. DavidFoss Posted: July 29, 2004 at 10:41 PM (#764034)
Oh... yeah... no worries on the updates to the plaques and all, I understand learning to be a BTF-curator is probably not trivial.

I was just noting that posts to the Plaque Room aren't showing up in Hot Topics, either. I suppose we can wait for the grand re-opening for that. :-)
   277. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 05, 2004 at 03:49 AM (#777921)
I was able to reconstruct all the posts up to #112. The rest are gone with the wind.
   278. DanG Posted: August 10, 2004 at 01:34 PM (#787552)
New eligibles 1937-41 with updated WARP3.

1937 (October 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

314 81.4 1914 Edd Roush-CF (1988)
245 76.9 1913 Wally Schang-C (1965)
177 42.8 1918 Bill Sherdel-P (1968)
148 36.2 1921 Bibb Falk-LF (1989)
136 31.0 1921 Pete Donohue-P (1988)
129 25.8 1921 Earl Sheely-1B (1952)
108 26.1 1921 Rip Collins-P (1968)
088 24.9 1918 Cy Perkins-C (1963)
Negro Lg 1911 Dick Redding-P (1940)
Negro Lg 1925 Chino Smith-RF (1932)
1938 (November 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

209 66.5 1920 Eddie Rommel-P (1970)
198 49.7 1921 Lu Blue-1B (1958)
193 47.3 1916 George Kelly-1B (1984)
183 43.8 1916 Charlie Jamieson-LF (1969)
149 36.8 1914 Rube Bressler-LF/P (1966)
133 32.0 1916 Clarence Mitchell-P (1963)
109 30.7 1918 Cliff Heathcote-RF (1939)
092 25.2 1923 Freddy Leach-LF (1981)
107 25.5 1920 Hod Ford-SS/2B (1977)
070 15.0 1922 Joe Hauser-1B (1997)
1939 (November 21)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

302 86.5 1913 Rabbit Maranville-SS (1954)
292 85.4 1914 Red Faber-P (1976)
315 78.5 1912 Eppa Rixey-P (1963)
277 87.8 1921 Joe Sewell-SS/3B (1990)
287 80.1 1909 Jack Quinn-P (1946)
141 36.3 1924 Ray Kremer-P (1965)
139 36.8 1924 Glenn Wright-SS (1984)
128 33.5 1924 Sam “Dolly” Gray-P (1953)
121 34.8 1924 Taylor Douthit-CF (1986)
110 29.2 1924 Harry Rice-CF/RF (1971)
104 26.4 1920 Bernie Friberg-3B/2B (1958)
090 27.3 1923 Sloppy Thurston-P (1973)
100 22.3 1922 Bob Fothergill-LF (1938)
099 21.4 1921 Lew Fonseca-1B/2B (1989)
Negro Lg 1919 Nip Winters-P (1971)
Negro Lg 1922 Heavy Johnson-LF (19??)
1940 (December 5)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

327 86.7 1916 Sam Rice-RF (1974)
286 72.0 1917 Burleigh Grimes-P (1985)
270 60.9 1916 Joe Judge-1B (1963)
241 67.6 1918 Dolf Luque-P (1957)
231 73.9 1919 George Uhle-P (1985)
240 60.3 1912 Herb Pennock-P (1948)
224 63.6 1924 Hack Wilson-CF (1948)
201 67.2 1923 Willie Kamm-3B (1988)
202 61.6 1921 Marty McManus-2B/3B (1966)
190 57.1 1921 Riggs Stephenson-LF (1985)
193 49.4 1923 George Grantham-2B/1B (1954)
156 51.3 1919 Muddy Ruel-C (1963)
144 39.7 1923 Sparky Adams-2B/3B (1989)
144 37.8 1923 Lefty O’Doul-LF (1969)
102 34.7 1924 Milt Gaston-P (1996)
105 31.8 1929 Johnny Frederick-CF (1977)
128 25.9 1922 Andy High-3B (1981)
106 27.3 1923 Joe Shaute-P (1970)
097 22.6 1921 Ray Kolp-P (1967)
Negro Lg 1909 Bullet Joe Rogan-P (1967)
Negro Lg 1921 John Beckwith-SS (1956)
1941 (December 19)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

756 233.0 1915 Babe Ruth-RF/LF (1948)
502 151.1 1916 Rogers Hornsby-2B (1963)
274 80.3 1922 Pie Traynor-3B (1972)
241 81.4 1922 Dazzy Vance-P (1961)
245 62.7 1915 Sad Sam Jones-P (1966)
227 58.9 1925 Earle Combs-CF (1976)
184 57.5 1924 Max Bishop-2B (1962)
161 49.7 1918 Bob O’Farrell-C (1988)
141 33.0 1924 Hughie Critz-2B (1980)
129 32.5 1923 Larry Benton-P (1953)
119 36.8 1927 Lefty Stewart-P (1974)
   279. DanG Posted: August 11, 2004 at 04:46 PM (#789901)
In #305 I raised this question:

Then there is the question of exactly how the age-45 rule is to be applied. Depending on whether the cutoff date is January 1 or July 1, Stearns and Suttles are eligible in 1946 or 1947.

Joe had told me he prefers the earlier date for eligiblity. This means July 1 is the cutoff date. Stearns and Suttles were both born in the first half of 1901 and their careers were over by 1942 and 1944, respectively. That makes them eligible for the 1946 election, if my data is accurate.

I believe this also brings Fats Jenkins on a year earlier, 1943 rather than 1944.
   280. Chris Cobb Posted: August 11, 2004 at 05:49 PM (#790037)
DanG --

Thanks for bringing this up again. I'm working on expanded Negro-League eligibles lists through 1950 (should post tonight or tomorrow), so I'll try to make sure that they fit the now-official interpretation of the age-45 eligibility rule.
   281. Chris Cobb Posted: August 12, 2004 at 03:59 AM (#791696)
Here's the expanded list of Negro-League Eligibles to 1950. That's a long way off, but posting the list now gives us time to make sure the dates are right. The list includes all Negro League players in the HoF, all players receiving a vote for election to the HoF in _Cool Papas and Double Duties_, all players in positional top 10s or seasonal best pitcher in NBJHBA, all players being named to at least 2 all-star teams by Holway in _Complete Book of Baseball's Negro Leagues_

The following expert data is listed:

HF -- % of vote received in the _CPPD_ Expert poll
BJ -- Bill James Ranking
MVP -- Times the player was named as league MVP or best pitcher by either James or Holway
All-Star -- Times named as all-star by Holway

Without further ado, the lists:

1933 (August 29)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 21-27 Pablo Mesa-OF (1902) - 0 - 0*
00% 16-27 Bartolo Portuondo-3B (??) - 0 - 3*

1934 (September 12)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 06-32 Pop Lloyd-SS/1B (1884) #1 ss - 8 - 13*
HF 10- 32 Smokey Joe Williams-P - 9.5 - 6*
96% 13-28 Christobal Torriente-OF (1895) #2 cf - 0 - 9*
80% 10-29 Ben Taylor-1B/P (1888) #3 1b - 0 - 8*
00% 08-28 Jules Thomas-CF (??) - 0- 6*
00% 05-28 Big Bill Gatewood-P (??) - 1 - 1*
00% 11-28 Hurley McNair-OF (1888) #10 lf - 0 - 2*
00% 18-28 Valentin Dreke-CF (1898) - 0 - 1*
00% 09-28 Pete Duncan-LF (??) - 0 - 0*

1935 (September 26)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
16% 10-30 Bingo DeMoss-2B (1889) #1 2b - 0 - 4*
04% 10-30 Dizzy Dismukes-P (1890) - 1 - 2*
04% 15-30 Bernardo Baro-OF (??) - 0 - 1*
00% 17-29 Tank Carr-1B (1895) #5 1b - 0 - 1*
00% 15-29 Charles Blackwell-OF (??) #9 cf - 0 - 2*
00% 09-31 Pelayo Chacon-SS (1889) #11 ss - 0 - 3*

1936 (October 10)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
80% 18-30 Oliver Marcelle-3B (1897) #3 3b - 0 - 4*
00% 09-30 Bombin Pedroso-P/OF (??) - 0 - 1*
00% 15-30 Plunk Drake-P (1895) - 1 - 0*

1937 (October 24)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
80% 11-32 Dick Redding-P (1891) - 7 - 2*
28% 25-31 Chino Smith-OF (1903) 1903 #6 rf - 3.5 - 2*
16% 18-31 Edgar Wesley 1b (??) xx 1b - 0 - 6*
04% 23-31 Rats Henderson-P(1897)0 - 2*

1938 (November 7)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
4% 15-32 Frank Warfield-2B(1895)#8 2b - 0 - 4*
0% 20-32 Reuben Curry-P (1899) 0.5 - 1*

1939 (November 21)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
20% 20-33 Nip Winters-P (1899) 5.5 - 6*
12% 22-33 Heavy Johnson-OF (1896) #8 lf - 0 - 4*
0% 19-33 Jelly Gardner-RF (1895) #8 rf - 0 - 1*
0% 20-33 Highpockets Hudspeth-1b (??) #7 1b - 0 - 0*

1940 (December 5)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 17-38 Bullet Joe Rogan-P/OF (1889) - 7 - 4*
56% 16-34 John Beckwith-SS/3B/C (1902)#6 3b-2-7*
28% 16-34 David Malarcher-3B (1894) #5 3b - 0 - 1*
16% 17-35 Alejandro Oms-CF(1895) #5 rf - 0- 3
00% 20-34 Dink Mothel-OF/IF (1897) #10 2b - 0 - 0*

1941 (December 19)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ - MVP - All-Star
12% 20-38 Andy Cooper-P (1896)2 - 6*
04% 21-35 Crush Holloway-RF (1896) - 0 - 1*
00% 22-35 Newt Joseph-3B (1899) #7 3b - 0 – 3*

1942 (January 2)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ - MVP - All-Star
04% 21-36 Sam Streeter-P (1900)1 – 0*
00% 20-36 Bill Riggins-SS (??) #5 SS - 0 – 0*
00% 20-38 Clint Thomas-CF (1896) #6 cf - 0 - 3
00% 16-36 Chaney White-OF (??) #7 cf- 0 - 2*
00% 20-36 Ed "Huck" Rile-P/1B (??) #8 1b - 1 - 0*

1943 (January 16)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 15-41 Oscar Charleston-CF/1B (1896) #1 cf - 9.5 - 13
HF 23-37 Bill Foster-P 6 - 5
HF 21-37 Judy Johnson-3B (1900)#2 3b 0 - 5*
96% 16-37 Dick Lundy-SS (1898) #3 ss - 2 - 7*
36% 22-37 Rap Dixon-RF (1902) #9 rf - 0 - 4*
16% 20-40 Fats Jenkins-OF (1898)#8 cf - 1 - 4*
00% 23-37 William Bell-P (??) 1 - 1*
00% 21-37 Paul Stephens-SS (1900) #8 ss - 0 - 0*
00% 25-37 Eddie Dwight-CF (1925-37) #10 cf - 0 - 1*

1944 (January 30)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
16% 32-38 Slim Jones-P(1913) 1 - 0*
00% 31-38 CharlieHughes-2b (??) 0 - 0*

1945 (February 13)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
12% 27-39 George Giles-1B (1909) #6 1b - 0 - 1*
12% 25-40 Webster McDonald-P (1900)0 - 0*
04% 27-39 Ted Trent-P (1903) 4 - 3*
00% 30-39 Harry Kincannon-P (??)0 - 0*

1946 (February 27)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 23-41 Turkey Stearnes-CF (1901) #1 lf - 3 - 12*
88% 23-44 Mule Suttles-1B/LF (1901) #2 lf - 3.5 - 8*
52% 22-44 Newt Allen-2B (1901) #2 2b - 0 - 8*
00% 20-41 Bill Holland-P(1901) 1 - 1*
00% 24-40 Frog Redus-LF (1905) #9 lf - 0 - 2*
00% 24-40 Dewey Creacy-3B (??) #10 3b - 0 - 3*

1947 (March 13)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
80% 22-45 Jud Wilson-3B/1B (1899) #4 3b - 0 - 11*
00% 20-41 Connie Rector-P (??) 1 - 1*

1948 (March 27)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 22-46 Cool Papa Bell-CF (1903) #3 cf - 1.5 - 8*
04% 29-42 Leroy Matlock-P (1907) 3 - 3*
04% 25-42 Bobbie Robinson-3B (??) 0 - 1*
00% 23-46 Nat Rogers-LF/RF(1893) #10 rf - 0 - 3*

1949 (April 10)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
100% 20-47 Biz Mackey-C (1897) #3 c - 2 - 8*
00% 20-47 Frank Duncan-C (1901) #10 c - 1 - 5*

1950 (April 24)—elect 2
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 23-45 Martin Dihigo-All (1905) #1 rf - 0 - 5*
28% 21-48 George Scales-2B (1900) #3 2b - 0 - 9*
20% 23-48 Vic Harris-LF (1905) #6 lf - 0 - 3*
00% 25-47 Dick Seay-2B (1904) #9 2b - 0 - 2*
00% 29-46 Showboat Thomas-1B (1905) #10 1b - 0 - 2*
00% 27-44 Tetelo Vargas-OF (1906) 0 - 2*
   282. andrew siegel Posted: August 12, 2004 at 11:57 AM (#791933)
HoMers: Lloyd, Williams, Torriente, Rogan, Charleston, Foster, Stearns, Suttles, Bell, Mackey, Dihigo.

Need more study: Taylor, DeMoss, Marcelle, Redding,Beckwith, Johnson, Lundy, Allen, Wilson (plus Monroe, Poles, R.Foster, and Mendez).

Already in: Johnson, Grant, Hill, (Santop).

Am I missing anyone the equal of these guys?

That's somewhere between 15 and 28 electees. I was guesstimating 20-22 so that sounds about right.
   283. andrew siegel Posted: August 12, 2004 at 12:56 PM (#791961)
Just realized that the list above doesn't include Negro Leaguers who played into the 1940s--obviously Paige and Gibson go into the top category; Buck Leonard probably goes onto the maybe list; I'm sure there are other guys to list.

Revised conclusion: Some of the "Need More Study" guys should probably get in, but the deck is stacked against them.
   284. DavidFoss Posted: August 12, 2004 at 01:16 PM (#791972)
There is always Monte Irvin. Looks to be eligible around 1962. Had about 3-4 good MLB seasons, but nothing that blows me away. It'll be fun to see how good he was in the 1940s.
   285. DanG Posted: August 12, 2004 at 01:44 PM (#791998)
I'm sure there are other guys to list.

Willie Wells, Ray Dandridge, Leon Day and Hilton Smith (to name four).
   286. Chris Cobb Posted: August 12, 2004 at 01:44 PM (#792000)
If you'd like to see the expanded list for the 1950s and 1960s, I can post it now.

But here's a list of top candidates eligible after 1950 whose case depends signficantly upon Negro-League play.

1952 -- Josh Gibson, Chet Brewer, Sammy T. Hughes
1953 -- Willie Wells, Bill Byrd
1954 -- Hilton Smith
1955 -- Buck Leonard, Ray Brown
1958 -- Willard Brown
1959 -- Satchel Paige, Ray Dandridge, Wild Bill Wright
1960 -- Leon Day
1962 -- Monte Irvin
1963 -- Roy Campanella
1965 -- Larry Doby
1970 -- Minnie Minoso

The last new eligible to have significant Negro-League play as part of his career will be Jim Gilliam, eligible 1972.

I'd guess that by the time we reach 1975, we'll have elected 25-30 Negro League stars. Total depends in part on how you count folks like Campanella and Doby.
   287. andrew siegel Posted: August 12, 2004 at 01:58 PM (#792017)
I'm not going to count Irvin, Campanella, Doby, and Minoso as Negro Leaguers for purposes of my count, but that's obviously a judgment call.

From memory, Wells is a clear HoMer (along with Gibson and Paige), while Byrd, Smith, Leonard, Dandridge, and Day have serious arguments.

So, there are 18 guys who are either already in or likely to slide in without much argument. I've listed another 18 guys to seriously consider and I'm sure I'm forgetting another half dozen. Moral of the story #1: we are going to elect a lot more than 20. Moral of the story #2: be careful with the Rube Fosters of the world or there might well be a backlash against more deserving candidates when we get to the 1940s and 1950s.
   288. DanG Posted: August 12, 2004 at 02:02 PM (#792023)
Chris:

First impression of that list, and realizing it's not a comprehensive listing, I have to ask, are Luke Easter and Sam Jethroe on your radar as top candidates? Don Newcombe?
   289. ronw Posted: August 12, 2004 at 04:03 PM (#792274)
Am I missing anyone the equal of these guys?

Well, the controversial Judy Johnson (who looks at least as good as Bingo DeMoss).

Plus, George Scales seems to jump out for a second look, as an even better candidate than DeMoss. (Nothing against Bingo, he just seems like the weakest candidate from Andrew's list, and Andrew asked for comps.)

28% 21-48 George Scales-2B (1900) #3 2b - 0 - 9*

I would also add Nip Winters to the consideration set. Andy Cooper, Frank Duncan, and Jules Thomas might also deserve consideration from some, but they won't make my set.

Adding these names to Andrew's consideration set gives a consideration set of 30-33 Negro Leaguers after electing Santop this year.

Adding Chris and DanG's names gives us at least 21 more names to consider, although some of those names had significant major league service.

That's 51-54 names, and I'm sure we forgot some. Andrew is right, we will elect more than 20, and we should be very careful so as not to shut out later deserving candidates.
   290. Paul Wendt Posted: August 12, 2004 at 04:46 PM (#792392)
Posted by John (Don't Call Me Grandma) Murphy on August 04, 2004 at 11:49 PM (#777921)
I was able to reconstruct all the posts up to #112. The rest are gone with the wind.


To DanG and his archivists:
Do you have 1921-1926 in the patented format (was #128)?

Did I somewhere else post a skimpy comparison of Spring and Summer WARP3 for 1932-1937?
   291. DanG Posted: August 12, 2004 at 04:56 PM (#792424)
Paul:

Here is 1921-26. This is the old (Spring) WARP3. I don't think anyone has shown a systematic comparison of Spring vs Summer W3.

***1921 (March 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

328 74.8 1899 Tommy Leach-CF/3b (1969)
258 65.6 1902 Joe Tinker-SS (1948)
255 56.4 1902 George Mullin-P (1944)
231 53.7 1901 Roger Bresnahan-C (1944)
163 39.1 1904 Hooks Wiltse-P (1959)
151 37.8 1904 Frank Smith-P (1952)
149 34.8 1904 Jim Delahanty-2b (1953)
138 34.1 1906 Frank LaPorte-2b (1939)
140 31.7 1906 Red Murray-RF (1958)
138 30.3 1905 Al Bridwell-SS (1969)
125 33.9 1910 Russ Ford-P (1960)
118 31.0 1902 Germany Schaefer-2b (1919)
126 25.1 1909 Steve Evans-RF (1943)
111 25.4 1904 George Stovall-1b (1951)
(Negro). 1895 Grant “Home Run” Johnson-SS/2b (1964)
***1922 (March 21) —elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

496 176.4 1896 Nap Lajoie-2b (1959)
426 128.8 1901 Christy Mathewson-P (1925)
296 70.3 1903 Mordecai Brown-P (1948)
222 70.8 1904 Miller Huggins-2b (1929)
177 54.3 1907 Nap Rucker-P (1970)
158 30.9 1905 Solly Hofman-CF (1956)
138 34.6 1908 Chief Wilson-RF (1954)
120 31.9 1907 Otto Knabe-2b (1961)
135 28.8 1908 Doc Crandall-P (1951)
114 30.2 1906 Roy Hartzell-RF/3b (1961)
091 14.4 1902 Red Dooin-C (1952)
***1923 (April 4) —elect 1
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

655 180.1 1897 Honus Wagner-SS (1955)
446 115.2 1899 Sam Crawford-RF (1968)
361 100.1 1901 Ed Plank-P (1926)
268 70.8 1903 Johnny Evers-2b (1947)
231 58.6 1903 Chief Bender-P (1954)
206 48.3 1905 Ed Reulbach-P (1961)
157 28.7 1906 Hans Lobert-3b (1968)
124 35.0 1909 Jim Scott-P (1957)
129 32.9 1909 Chief Meyers-C (1971)
139 25.1 1907 Mike Mowrey-3b (1947)
137 23.4 1907 Bobby Byrne-3b (1964)
128 26.8 1903 Cy Falkenberg-P (1961)
113 26.0 1905 George Gibson-C (1967)
Negro Lg 1901 Rube Foster-P (1930)
***1924 (April 18) –elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

239 49.3 1905 Frank “Wildfire” Schulte-RF (1949)
161 37.6 1905 Mickey Doolan-SS (1951)
160 37.1 1906 Jack Coombs-P (1957)
154 32.7 1908 Bob Bescher-LF (1942)
149 31.5 1908 Dick Hoblitzel-1b (1962)
140 29.9 1906 Rube Oldring-CF (1961)
119 34.3 1912 Jeff Tesreau-P (1946)
110 28.2 1906 Bill Hinchman-RF/LF (1963)
103 25.5 1911 Vean Gregg-P (1964)
***1925 (May 2)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

354 77.5 1904 Sherry Magee-LF (1929)
231 43.0 1905 Hal Chase-1b (1947)
214 42.1 1908 Heinie Zimmerman-3b (1969)
171 50.7 1904 Terry Turner-SS/3b (1960)
198 41.9 1904 Red Ames-P (1936)
161 31.8 1911 Red Smith-3b (1966)
132 34.5 1908 Jack Barry-SS (1961)
130 32.2 1910 Chick Gandil-1b (1970)
132 30.6 1905 Lefty Leifield-P (1970)
125 26.6 1912 Larry Cheney-P (1969)
104 27.6 1912 Lee Magee-CF/2b (1966)
110 24.0 1911 Vic Saier-1b (1967)
***1926 (May 23)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)

294 80.3 1910 Joe Jackson-LF/RF (1951)
247 73.1 1908 Eddie Cicotte-P (1969)
289 59.0 1907 Larry Doyle-2b (1974)
202 51.8 1908 Gavvy Cravath-RF (1963)
148 51.6 1912 Ray Chapman-SS (1920)
174 43.1 1911 Claude Hendrix-P (1944)
171 43.1 1908 Buck Herzog-2b/3b/SS (1953)
191 35.7 1908 Fred Merkle-1b (1956)
175 36.6 1914 Benny Kauff-CF (1961)
127 46.5 1905 George McBride-SS (1973)
160 34.4 1910 Fred Luderus-1b (1961)
152 33.4 1912 Buck Weaver-SS/3b (1956)
129 35.8 1913 Dick Rudolph-P (1949)
123 36.4 1915 Happy Felsch-CF (1964)
089 19.5 1910 Bill Rariden-C (1942)
   292. Chris Cobb Posted: August 12, 2004 at 05:11 PM (#792478)
First impression of that list, and realizing it's not a comprehensive listing, I have to ask, are Luke Easter and Sam Jethroe on your radar as top candidates? Don Newcombe?

Easter and Jethroe are on the expanded listing; I didn't see either as a top candidate, but both have a case.

Newcombe was left off, like Jackie Robinson, because he only had one full season of Negro League play in 1945 before entering the minors, so I don't see that as making a significant contribution to his HoM case. More significant in Newcombe's case is his minor-league play from 1946-1948. It looks pretty clear to me that he was more than good enough to pitch in the majors in 1948 and probably sooner, but there was no way for him to get there until Jackie had cleared the way.
   293. Paul Wendt Posted: August 14, 2004 at 08:02 PM (#797652)
Thanks, Dan.
Now I have WARP3 for new eligibles beginning 1904, thus:

2003 edition - 1904-32 (1921-32, top candidates only)
Winter/Spring - 1918-42
Summer 2004 - 1932-41

To be continued.

(BTW, Clay Davenport does not have a convenient source for the 2003 edition, all players.)
   294. yest Posted: August 15, 2004 at 05:20 AM (#798516)
if someone has a list of players who were first avialabe in 1907 and 1908 can they please post it
   295. Esteban Rivera Posted: August 16, 2004 at 01:33 AM (#799779)
Other possible Negro League candidates:
Pedro Cepeda
Francisco Coimbre
Luis Marquez
Bob Thurman
Bernardo Baro
Silvio Garcia
Julian Castillo
Eustaquio Pedroso
Luis Padron
Diomedes Olivo
   296. Chris Cobb Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:38 AM (#799858)
Thanks, Esteban, for these additional candidates. Some I already have in my full listings: I will add the others. I hope, if you see any of these players as strong candidates, you'll tell us about them!

Here's a list of when the players are eligible, with the tiny bit of info I already knew or have just learned:

Julian Castillo -- 1919
Cuban slugger from the deadball era. Played for the Cuban teams that toured North America for several years in the aughts.

Luis Padron -- 1932
Also a Cuban star, as a pitcher and as an outfielder.

Bernardo Baro -- 1936
Slugging Cuban outfielder. Played in the U.S. in the teens and twenties. Received some votes for election in _Cool Papas_.

Eustaquio "Bombin" Pedroso -- 1936
Cuban pitching star. Best known for throwing a no-hitter against the Detroit Tigers in 1909.

Pedro Cepeda -- 1952
Puerto Rican Star at shortstop and first base. Never played in the U.S. Father of Orlando Cepeda. Nickname was "The Bull," which explains Cepeda the younger's nickname. Riley's bio says the father was thought by many to be the superior player of the two.

Francisco Coimbre -- 1954
Puerto Rican Star outfielder. Played in the Negro Leagues for a few seasons in the 1940s, but played mostly in Puerto Rico. Clemente was often compared to him.

Silvio Garcia -- 1958
Cuban star; began his career as pitcher but switched to shortstop after an arm injury. Played in the Negro Leagues for a few seasons in the 1940s, played in Mexico during the 1940s also closed his career with three minor league seasons.

Bob Thurman -- 1964
Had a career sort of like Luke Easter's. A great slugger whose career started late. Born in 1917, he was "discovered" as a ballplayer while playing baseball in the army during WWII. Played in the Negro Leagues after the war, in the minors for a number of years, and finally reached the majors at the age of 38 in 1955.

Diomedes Olivo -- 1969
Dominican pitching star. Never played in the Negro Leagues, so I know virtually nothing about him, except that he reached the major leagues as a 40-year-old rookie in 1960, and also pitched in the majors in 1962 and 1963.

Luis Marquez -- 1970 ??
Puerto Rican star who excelled as a centerfielder and middle infielder. Played in the Negro Leagues for a few years after WWII, in the minors from 1949-1961, and had two brief stints in the majors in the 1950s. Played in Mexico in the early 1960s, and played winters in Puerto Rico until 1964. Based on major-league play, he'd be eligible in 1960; based on minor-league play, in 1967, based on all play, in 1970.
   297. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 16, 2004 at 03:06 AM (#799894)
Hey, where's Charlie Pride's name? :-)
   298. PhillyBooster Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:09 PM (#800217)
He'd be on my ballot right after Curtis Pride. Or maybe Loretta Lynn.
   299. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:14 PM (#800222)
He'd be on my ballot right after Curtis Pride. Or maybe Loretta Lynn.

LOL
   300. DanG Posted: August 20, 2004 at 01:18 PM (#808914)
Back now from da UP. Per yest's request:

if someone has a list of players who were first avialabe in 1907 and 1908 can they please post it

***1907 (August 17)—elect 1
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
337 92.3 1888 Billy Hamilton-CF (1940)
295 81.0 1888 Hugh Duffy-CF/LF (1954)
238 73.7 1890 Cupid Childs-2b (1912)
285 52.4 1886 Elmer Smith-LF/P (1945)
204 41.7 1892 Pink Hawley-P (1938)
193 32.7 1892 Nig Cuppy-P (1922)
120 20.1 1884 Joe Quinn-2b (1940)
080 14.1 1895 Bill Everitt-1b/3b (1938)
074 16.6 1888 Pop Schriver-C (1932)
082 07.4 1891 Tommy Dowd-RF (1933)
***1908 (August 31)-- elect 1
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
214 62.2 1891 Hughie Jennings-SS (1928)
254 58.4 1888 Dummy Hoy-CF (1961)
170 58.4 1890 Steve Brodie-CF (1935)
157 38.1 1894 Win Mercer-P (1903)
110 25.4 1890 Bones Ely-SS (1952)
116 25.0 1886 Wilbert Robinson-C (1934)
099 23.2 1894 Charlie Irwin-3b (1925)
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