and it will be weird to be finally voting for some guys I actually SAW play (looks like Curt Flood will be my first opportunity to do so...)

K, you said it.

For me: 1976 Bob Allison and Jimmie Hall. Both tragic figures. Allison the old football player who did everything well. Well, except hit for average I guess. Good power, excellent fielder, could run. Said to be the single most fearsome player at breaking up the double play. Died vey young (50ish) of parkinson's or something like that, a nervous system disorder that put thus hulking man into a wheel chair, unable to speak, etc., the last year or two of his life. When I was in college, I worked nights as a janitor for a while and I cleaned his office at the local Coke bottler.

Hall was an even better baseball player, not as good an athlete, until hit in the face by a pitch. They say he bailed on lefties after that, became a platoon player, traded away. The Twins had a reunion of their 1965 AL champs earlier this summer and everyone still living was there except Hall. Very bitter man, at least toward the Twins.

1977--Pascual, Grant, Chance. As a kid playing pick-up baseball games in the park, all the kids wanted to be "Camilio." Very charismatic player. And it's hard to believe that Mudcat ended up with more career value than Dean Chance. Both were short-timers with the Twins but with very prominent places in the franchise history.

And finally Zoilo, another tragic figure. After his MVP season, his game just collapsed. Reminds me of Christian Guzman in that respect. Then died very very young, in his 40s I would guess.

1978--Don Mincher, a great lefty platoon/pinch hitter.

I wouldn't have remembered that so many of these heroes of the '60s all retired in such rapid succession, most of them with relatively short careers considered how high of peaks they had. Not HoM type peaks, of course, but together the bunch of them (well, with help from Killebrew and Oliva) won a pennant in '65, almost another in '67, and the first two western divisional titles in '69. Not that all of them were on all those teams. A better clutch of talent overall than the '87 and '91 teams I think, the '87 and '91 teams being more of a collection of role players after Kirby and Gaetti and Hrbie.

Oh, 1979--Ron Perranoski who had a couple great years with the Twins, though best remembered as a Dodger.

And speaking of tragic figures, not a Twin of course, but nobody can top Tony C.

Glad to see some appreciation for how I do this. I know that I don't need to list half the guys I do; most are not really HoM candidates. But it's always fun to look down the list, for old favorites or for guys you never heard of. It also gives you a stronger sense of just where we are in time. I don't know, maybe these could even be used by Diamond Mind players to get a quick read on the best of an era.

Because analogies are fun, because I didn't see these guys play (I'm a youngin' at 30), and because SDY2 already suggested Zolio = Guzman...

Don Mincher = Ken Phelps?
Jimmie Hall = Dickie Thon?
Camilio Pascual= El Duque?

A better clutch of talent overall than the '87 and '91 teams I think, the '87 and '91 teams being more of a collection of role players after Kirby and Gaetti and Hrbie.

The '87 team was a cinderella story which was great, but as a Twins fan, the '91 victory was nice because that team had a legitimate claim that year to the best team in baseball.

The 60's Twins were a talented bunch, though. Too bad I wasn't born yet. There's a great book from last year or the year before called "Paths To Glory: How Great Baseball Teams Got That Way" by Armour & Levitt which has an interesting chapter on the failed promise of the 1960s Twins. Several other teams from other eras (90s Braves, 30s Red Sox) were also profiled. Great read.

The iconic team for me is the '67-'68 Cardinals. They're starting to appear:

Dan lists Roger Maris (1974), Curt Flood (1975), Julian Javier (1978) and Orlando Cepeda (1980). Mike Shannon (1976, career truncated by kidney disease) escaped Dan's net.

Of course not everyone on those teams becomes eligible by 1980. Yet to come: Dal Maxvill (1981), Bob Gibson (1981), Joe Hoerner (1982), Lou Brock (1985), Bobby Tolan (1985), Tim McCarver (1986), and Steve Carlton (1994).

In case anyone cares, Dick Hughes, 29-year-old rookie extraordinaire, becomes eligible in 1974 with his lifetime 20-9 record. Also Ray Washburn in 1976 and Larry Jaster in either 1976 or 1978.

Mike Shannon (1976, career truncated by kidney disease) escaped Dan's net.

Actually, he was in the net but I threw him back after looking up the numbers, 78 win shares and 18.6 WARP3.

Yeah, I coulda guessed that.

The iconic team for me is the '67-'68 Cardinals.

Lucky you! For me, it's the '69-'75 Cardinals...

I don't know if I buy "the failed promise" of the '60s Twins. Levitt, though, is a local boy (Twin Cities), so he would know. But seriously, they could hit, but they never really had the pitching. Pascual had broken down by the time of Mudcat, Chance was there briefly, Boswell had but one great yearl. They had pretty good relief pitching though.

Jim Perry is the big mystery. He was a spot starter and mop-up man for years and years before cracking the rotation and having a couple of great years in the early '70s. This was after he had had a great year (or two?) with the Indians. Did the Twins just miss with him, mis-use him, or was there a problem with his pitching somehow?

The other thing about "the failed promise" is the Baltimore Orioles. After the Yankees tanked, the Twins certainly looked good in '65 and were favored in '66 but add F Robby to an already pretty good Orioles club and they (the Twins) probably shouldn't have been (favored). Then in '67 the Orioles are big faves and tank. But then the Red Sox come out of that special nowhere that they were living at the time. The Twins were in first place going into a final weekend 2-game series in Fenway. All they needed was a split. Damn.

Then the Tigers in '68 and they're the ones who are usually tagged with "failed promise," so they got their one year of fame, and then the Orioles again.

Certainly '67 was a missed opp for the Twins but after that it was just some pretty damn tough competition.

Lucky you! For me, it's the '69-'75 Cardinals...

Well, 1974 with Brock's 118 SB was a fun ride even if it fell just short of a playoff berth. And I'm sure you can re-create (in the privacy of your living room) exactly what Al Hrabosky did behind the mound. On the other hand ...

[Steve Carlton, transactions] February 25, 1972: Traded by the St. Louis Cardinals to the Philadelphia Phillies for Rick Wise.

I don't know if I buy "the failed promise" of the '60s Twins.

Unfortunately, those three words were my paraphrase and not the author's. The book's chapter title is "An Unexpected Drop-off: The 1960s Minnesota Twins".

The book does acknowledge that there was probably just a short window between end of the Yankee Dynasty in 1964 and the start of the big Oriole Dynasty in 1969.

But seriously, they could hit, but they never really had the pitching.

Much of this is probably park effects of the old Met. During the 1966-68 period in question, it was the team OPS+ numbers dropped and not the ERA+ numbers. You left out Jim Kaat from above.

At any rate, they do go over most of the roster of the Twins from about 1963-68 or so and discuss various deals and non-deals. Still a good read. :)

Yeah, forgot Kaat! He was pretty steady though ironically his really big year was '66 when all the other wheels fell off. And as for the hitting, there were an unusual number of guys who fell off the cliff--Versalles, Rollins, Hall. Battey was due for his decline right then, but the others really declined young.

From 1965-70, only three AL teams played above .500:


.593 575-394 Baltimore
.572 556-416 Minnesota
.556 540-432 Detroit
.500 486-486 Boston
.491 475-493 New York

From these numbers, what would you expect by way of distribution of 6 pennants, I wonder? Of course, the introduction of divisional play and a league championship playoff series would jumble the calculations considerably, but if you knew, then, that Baltimore and Minnesota played in both of them?

You would probably expect Baltimore to win 2 and a fraction, and that's what they did, just that they rounded off the fraction. And the next three won one apiece.

Not exactly what you'd expect but pretty close.

If but for one weekend in '67, it woulda been 3-2-1-0-0. Now that would be more like it.

It's interesting that the Yankees were that good after their collapse. I guess I'd always assumed they'd had a late-80s/early-90s collapse in the 1960s, but it looks like they weren't THAT bad. I'm sure Cleveland, for instance, was probably substantially worse.

Yankees
1965 77-85 .425 -25 6th place
1966 70-89 .440 -26.5 10th place!
1967 72-90 .444 -20 9th place
1968 83-79 .512 -20 5th place
1969 80-81 .497 -28.5 5th in east
1970 93-69 .574 -15 2nd in east

1965-1969 would be different than 1965-70, though they slumped in 1971-73 with 82, 79 and 80 wins. It was '74 before they were better longer term.

So yes, they were horrible '65-'67, though imagine a dead last 10th place team in a 10 team league with 70 wins. I doubt if that happened very much. In fact here is 10th place throughout the short-lived 10 team era 1960-68 in wins:

58-61-60-56-57-59-NY 70-62-65

It seemed like the Yankees were especially horrible being in last place but they were an unsually good last place team. The real news in '66 was that KC and Washington, one or the other of which finished last every other time, both won more than 70 though only 74 and 71 respectively. That was really unheard of. Boston managed also to finish behind the two of them with 72 wins.

The '66 Yankees were 6th in runs with 611 and 6th in ERA, so they must have serious underperformed phythatg. Their .235 BA was pretty bad but their .374 OBA was actually above league average. Mantle only played 108 games but slugged .538 which would have tied Killebrew for 2nd if he had been eligible. But the Yanks gave a ton of PAs to Maris .233/.382, Tresh .233/.421 and Roy White (age 22) .225/.345. Stottlemeyere (M. not T.), Peterson and Downing were pretty good in the rotation but #3 and 4 were weak: Talbot 4.14 after acquired, Friend 4.80 until moved. Ford 2.47 in 9 starts and Bouton 2.70 in 19 starts both hurt. This actually could have been an outstanding staff but for injuries. Bullpen was also pretty good--Pete Ramos of all people the closer.

Some AL managers in '66--Hank Bauer, Chuck Dressen (died with a 16-10 record in Detroit and was replaced by Bob Swift who died with a32-25 record!), Eddie Stanky, Birdie Tebbetts, Bill Rigney, Al Dark, Gil Hodges, Billy Herman, Johnny Keane/Ralph Houk in New York. The better the playing career, the worse the manager apparently.

How 'bout them Tigers losing not one but two managers, but still finished 3rd 10 games out. The O's scored 36 more runs and gave up maybe 80 less, so the Tigers must have been running on auto-pilot, basically doing what they shoulda done without any consistent managerial leadership. The Twins were 2nd 9 games out. Surprisngly they had a better ERA than the O's though not as good as the White Sox, but the O's outscored the Twins by almost 100 runs.

In '67 the Yankees still had pretty good pitching but the offense really tanked. BA of .225 and SA .317! Ouch.

It's interesting that the Yankees were that good after their collapse. I guess I'd always assumed they'd had a late-80s/early-90s collapse in the 1960s, but it looks like they weren't THAT bad. I'm sure Cleveland, for instance, was probably substantially worse.

Place in the standings from 1965-70 (gap where div play starts):

BAL  3--1--7--2----1-1
MIN  1--2--2--7----1-1
DET  4--3--2--1----2-4
BOS  9--9--1--4----3-3
NYY  6-10--9--5----5-2
CLE  5--5--8--3----6-5
CWS  2--4--4--9----5-6
CAL  7--6--5--8----3-3
K/O 10--7-10--6----2-2
WAS  8--8--6-10----4-6
KCR                4-4
S/M                6-5 

The Yankees hit rock bottom in 1966-67 but bounced back fairly quickly and had a strong team again by 1970 with Munson, Murcer, White and Co.

The Indians' abyssmal 1969 weighs them down.

(This website is a great procrastinating tool!)

Trying to get these all back together:

1962 (October 17)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
292 106.3 1936 Bob Feller-P (living)
257 84.8 1947 Jackie Robinson-2B (1972)
231 72.7 1941 Phil Rizzuto-SS (living)
185 50.4 1950 Al Rosen-3B (living)
151 57.6 1941 Howie Pollet-P (1974)
145 53.3 1946 Ellis Kinder-RP/SP (1968)
142 56.0 1944 Andy Seminick-C (2004)
141 50.7 1947 Mel Parnell-P (living)
138 35.7 1947 Dale Mitchell-LF (1987)
110 47.9 1942 Johnny Schmitz-P (living)
130 36.6 1946 Grady Hatton-3B (living)
123 38.0 1942 Hank Thompson-3B (1969)
122 34.3 1946 Hoot Evers-LF/CF (1991)
098 34.3 1940 Monte Irvin-LF (living)
083 29.9 1944 Jim Konstanty-RP (1976)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 45-56 Jackie Robinson-2B/3B (1919) – 0 – 1* 
HF 37-56 Monte Irvin-OF (1919) #3 lf – 1 – 5* 
08% 37-56 Bus Clarkson-SS (1918) – 0 – 1*
04% 43-56 Hank Thompson-2B/OF (1925) – 0 – 2*

1963 (October 31)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
207 73.6 1948 Roy Campanella-C (1993)
229 66.3 1944 George Kell-3B (living)
173 57.9 1941 Walker Cooper-C (1991)
141 48.3 1942 Steve Gromek-P (2002)
127 30.9 1947 Eddie Robinson-1B (living)
110 28.6 1942 Ron Northey-RF (1971)
095 33.6 1948 Wes Westrum-C (2002
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 37-57 Roy Campanella-C (1921) #6 c – 0 – 2* 
16% 44-57 Artie Wilson-SS (1917) – 1 – 3* 
04% 42-58 Piper Davis-2B/1B (1917) – 0 – 4*

1964 (November 14)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
314 95.4 1940 Pee Wee Reese-SS (1999)
232 88.2 1946 Bob Lemon-P (2000)
198 75.1 1942 Virgil Trucks-P (living)
139 48.4 1945 Sal Maglie-P (1992)
108 31.1 1946 Bobby Adams-3B/2B (1997)
088 33.8 1948 Bill Wight-P (living)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 42-54 Bonnie Serrell-2B (1922) xx 2b – 0 – 2* 
00% 46-58 Bob Thurman-OF/P (1917) – 0 – 0*
?????????? Wilmer Fields

1965 (November 28)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
323 97.2 1938 Enos Slaughter-RF (2002)
296 77.6 1939 Mickey Vernon-1B (living)
268 77.3 1942 Larry Doby-CF (2003)
204 85.5 1942 Murray Dickson-P (1989)
220 68.9 1944 Andy Pafko-CF/RF (living)
217 68.7 1946 Carl Furillo-RF (1989)
233 62.1 1946 Del Ennis-LF (1996)
174 52.3 1945 Hank Sauer-LF (2001)
175 50.2 1950 Bobby Avila-2B (2004)
144 41.2 1948 Granny Hamner-SS/2B (1993)
132 40.4 1950 Chico Carrasquel-SS (living)
125 29.8 1949 Gus Zernial-LF (living)
101 38.8 1947 Jim Hearn-P (1998)
109 35.4 1951 Solly Hemus-SS (living)
104 35.9 1949 Stan Lopata-C (living)
105 35.3 1948 Carl Erskine-P (living)
095 37.0 1948 Bob Porterfield-P (1980)
097 36.0 1949 Alex Kellner-P (1996)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
HF 42-59 Larry Doby-OF/2B (1923) – 1 – 2*
00% 40-59 Claude Johnson-P (1922) – 0 – 1*

1966 (December 12)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
555 169.3 1939 Ted Williams-LF (2002) 
226 61.8 1948 Alvin Dark-SS (living) 
205 61.8 1947 Bobby Thomson-CF/LF (living) 
194 59.9 1951 Gil McDougald-2B/3B (living) 
176 65.0 1949 Don Newcombe-P (living) 
173 63.7 1949 Willie Jones-3B (1983) 
152 65.1 1948 Bob Rush-P (living) 
166 45.4 1949 Ray Boone-3B/SS (2004) 
137 49.6 1942 Jim Hegan-C (1984) 
156 40.7 1945 Whitey Lockman-1B/LF (living) 
107 28.8 1950 Irv Noren-CF/LF (living) 
105 27.5 1949 Johnny Groth-CF (living) 
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 44-60 Don Newcombe-P (1926) – 0 – 0* 

1967 (December 26)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
166 75.6 1948 Ned Garver-P (living) 
203 48.1 1948 Ted Kluszewski-1B (1988) 
187 53.2 1950 Jackie Jensen-RF (1982) 
184 53.6 1947 Earl Torgeson-1B (1990) 
187 48.5 1942 Elmer Valo-RF (1998) 
160 57.0 1949 Mike Garcia-P (1986) 
180 47.7 1949 Hank Bauer-RF (living) 
146 60.0 1949 Johnny Antonelli-P (living) 
138 51.8 1947 Gerry Staley-RP (living) 
110 36.3 1945 Del Rice-C (1983) 
099 40.3 1949 Chuck Stobbs-P (living) 
096 35.8 1951 Clem Labine-RP (living) 
107 26.3 1952 Jim Rivera-RF/CF (living) 
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 46-61 Bob Boyd-1B (1926) #9 1b – 0 – 1* 
00% 43-61 Marvin Williams-2B (1923) – 0 – 1*

1968 (January 9)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
329 106.0 1948 Richie Ashburn-CF (1997) 
262 85.6 1945 Red Schoendienst-2B (living) 
267 65.4 1647 Eddie Yost-3B (living) 
228 63.5 1946 Gene Woodling-LF (2001) 
175 46.2 1950 Gus Bell-CF/RF (1995) 
170 42.5 1948 Billy Goodman-2B/1B (1984) 
142 36.2 1947 Dave Philley-RF/CF (living) 
134 35.2 1952 Bob Nieman-LF (1985) 
107 36.0 1950 Danny O'Connell-2B (1969) 
112 29.5 1951 Jim Busby-CF (1996) 

1969 (January 23)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
604 188.1 1942 Stan Musial-LF/1B (living) 
375 119.5 1947 Yogi Berra-C (living) 
309 107.9 1941 Early Wynn-P (1999) 
263 76.6 1947 Gil Hodges-1B (1972) 
209 69.8 1947 Sherm Lollar-C (1977) 
219 57.4 1947 Vic Wertz-RF/1B (1983) 
181 62.8 1951 Johnny Logan-SS (living) 
157 40.7 1952 Johnny Temple-2B (1994) 
132 45.3 1954 Don Hoak-3B (1969) 
118 45.3 1954 Frank Sullivan-P (living) 
116 37.8 1952 Wally Post-RF (1982) 
117 31.8 1951 Charlie Maxwell-LF (living) 
102 28.8 1953 Daryl Spencer-SS/2B (living) 
103 24.0 1954 Jim Lemon-RF/LF (living) 
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 3?-63 Diomedes Olivo-P (1919) – 0 – 0
??????????  Alonzo Perry

1970 (February 6)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
352 103.6 1948 Duke Snider-CF (living) 
283 79.6 1951 Minnie Minoso-LF (living) 
248 88.8 1948 Billy Pierce-P (living) 
216 58.5 1951 Pete Runnels-2B/1B (1991) 
159 64.8 1949 Bobby Shantz-RP (living) 
190 50.9 1953 Bill Bruton-CF (1995) 
194 42.9 1953 Al Smith-RF/LF (2002) 
103 39.8 1955 Sam Jones-P (1971)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 45-64 Minnie Minoso-3B/OF (1922) – 0 – 1* 
00% 44-64 Luis Marquez-CF/IF (1925) – 0 – 0*

1971 (February 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
412 161.8 1946 Warren Spahn-P (2003)
304 83.7 1949 Nellie Fox-2B (1975)
231 60.9 1949 Roy Sievers-1B/LF
153 62.4 1953 Harvey Haddix-P (1994)
175 51.9 1954 Wally Moon-LF/RF
169 49.1 1951 Frank Thomas-LF/3B
157 46.9 1955 Bill Virdon-CF
145 51.0 1954 Ed Bailey-C
141 53.0 1955 Frank Lary-P
152 45.2 1954 Vic Power-1B
127 42.5 1955 Gus Triandos-C
127 42.0 1952 Dick Donovan-P (1997)
120 42.6 1954 Don Mossi-P
131 32.8 1954 Joe Cunningham-1B/RF
120 32.9 1957 Tony Kubek-SS
095 34.8 1953 Don Larsen-P
104 27.9 1958 Albie Pearson-CF
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 46-66 Junior Gilliam-2B (1928) 0 – 0*

1972 (March 6)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
339 134.2 1948 Robin Roberts-P
207 87.4 1951 Bob Friend-P
247 65.6 1953 Jim Gilliam-2B/3B (1978)
236 69.1 1950 Joe Adcock-1B (1999)
223 55.8 1953 Harvey Kuenn-SS/RF (1988)
194 68.9 1955 Sandy Koufax-P
179 70.0 1949 Del Crandall-C
172 64.1 1951 Roy McMillan-SS (1997)
147 57.9 1952 Joe Nuxhall-P
162 50.7 1952 Jim Piersall-CF
147 50.3 1953 Bob Buhl-P (2001)
141 49.6 1954 Frank Bolling-2B
135 42.4 1956 Frank Malzone-3B
122 49.2 1954 Bob Purkey-P
140 37.3 1956 Don Blasingame-2B
137 37.3 1954 Bob Skinner-LF
136 33.1 1955 Hector Lopez-LF/3B
125 33.3 1960 Jim Gentile-1B
105 40.1 1952 Billy Hoeft-P
103 40.7 1953 Ray Herbert-P
105 30.0 1957 Ralph Terry-P
104 29.2 1956 Wes Covington-LF
120 22.3 1957 Bobby Richardson-2B
114 21.1 1958 Dick Stuart-1B (2002)

1973 (March 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
261 89.5 1950 Whitey Ford-P
225 76.6 1952 Dick Groat-SS
210 78.0 1948 Curt Simmons-P
178 67.7 1952 Lew Burdette-P
157 67.9 1950 Vern Law-P
154 61.7 1952 Stu Miller-RP
172 54.3 1951 Smoky Burgess-C/PH (1991)
183 43.2 1954 Bill Skowron-1B
143 54.7 1953 Johnny Podres-P
151 47.2 1957 Jim Landis-CF
142 48.5 1957 Earl Battey-C (2003)
136 42.4 1959 Johnny Romano-C
123 44.8 1957 Billy O’Dell-P
115 43.7 1957 Jack Sanford-P (2000)
114 39.3 1958 Bob Shaw-P
127 34.2 1957 Jerry Lumpe-2B
103 40.7 1950 Johnny Klippstein-RP
122 32.4 1956 Jackie Brandt-CF
108 33.7 1956 Eddie Bressoud-SS
099 33.4 1959 Jim O’Toole-P
103 28.6 1958 Don Demeter-CF

1974 (April 3)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
565 154.4 1951 Mickey Mantle-CF (1995)
450 130.5 1952 Eddie Mathews-3B (2001)
273 74.3 1956 Rocky Colavito-RF
225 87.6 1955 Larry Jackson-P (1990)
203 63.8 1955 Elston Howard-C (1980)
223 53.7 1957 Roger Maris-RF (1985)
171 43.2 1956 Norm Siebern-1B
110 41.1 1958 Bill Monbouquette-P
132 30.7 1961 Floyd Robinson-RF
087 30.7 1952 Bill Henry-RP

1975 (April 17)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
279 94.7 1955 Ken Boyer-3B (1982)
258 101.9 1956 Don Drysdale-P (1993)
221 68.4 1958 Curt Flood-CF (1997)
209 62.6 1956 Bill White-1B
139 59.0 1953 Roy Face-RP
153 48.9 1957 Woodie Held-SS/CF
160 42.0 1962 Tom Tresh-LF/SS
155 36.7 1958 Leon Wagner-LF (2004)
124 52.1 1957 Turk Farrell-RP (1977)
123 48.9 1955 Pedro Ramos-P
116 41.1 1958 Gary Bell-P
106 42.6 1953 Al Worthington-RP
108 33.3 1962 Ed Charles-3B
095 35.5 1960 Ken Johnson-P
084 33.9 1962 Dick Radatz-RP (2005)

1976 (May 1)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
203 54.8 1959 Bob Allison-RF/LF (1995)
181 62.1 1958 Johnny Roseboro-C (2002)
165 35.8 1956 Tito Francona-LF/1B
132 54.2 1952 Ron Kline-RP
126 47.0 1960 Earl Wilson-P (2005)
118 46.5 1957 Mike McCormick-P
116 34.9 1958 Jim Davenport-3B
099 38.8 1957 Don Cardwell-P
117 25.5 1963 Pete Ward-3B
098 31.8 1956 Hank Aguirre-RP (1994)
100 23.8 1963 Jimmie Hall-CF/LF

1977 (May 15)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
332 115.0 1954 Ernie Banks-SS/1B
257 90.6 1955 Jim Bunning-P
175 71.3 1954 Camilo Pascual-P
183 51.0 1960 Tony Gonzalez-CF
160 52.9 1955 Clete Boyer-3B
145 49.7 1958 Jim “Mudcat” Grant-P
137 52.0 1960 Jim Maloney-P
148 47.4 1962 Dean Chance-P
134 36.3 1961 Zoilo Versalles-SS (1995)
114 42.0 1958 Stan Williams-P
114 41.8 1960 Dick Ellsworth-P
110 40.8 1955 Dick Hall-RP
123 31.0 1959 Lee Maye-LF/RF (2002)
118 32.1 1961 Chuck Hinton-LF/RF
096 37.4 1960 Clay Dalrymple-C
109 31.3 1962 Mack Jones-CF/LF (2004)
105 24.3 1964 Tony Conigliaro-RF (1990)

1978 (May 29)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
377 122.4 1955 Roberto Clemente-RF (1972)
256 92.4 1952 Hoyt Wilhelm-RP (2002)
219 86.5 1956 Bill Mazeroski-2B
253 71.6 1959 Maury Wills-SS
179 56.5 1962 Tom Haller-C (2004)
194 44.7 1964 Don Buford-LF/2B
148 48.2 1964 Wes Parker-1B
162 41.2 1961 Don Mincher-1B
145 42.9 1960 Ron Hansen-SS
133 47.9 1963 Gary Peters-P
135 43.4 1960 Julian Javier-2B
119 45.1 1962 Joe Horlen-P
136 38.5 1962 Donn Clendenon-1B
108 42.4 1956 Moe Drabowsky-RP
115 34.6 1964 Denny McLain-P
107 37.0 1955 Ted Abernathy-RP
100 35.2 1960 Phil Regan-RP
097 34.7 1964 Bobby Knoop-2B
108 27.6 1965 Curt Blefary-LF (2001)
106 28.3 1965 Jim Lefebvre-2B

1979 (June 12)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
642 208.1 1951 Willie Mays-CF
293 85.0 1956 Luis Aparicio-SS
297 73.9 1960 Frank Howard-LF/RF
241 70.6 1959 Johnny Callison-RF
241 59.2 1958 Felipe Alou-RF/CF
210 71.1 1958 Milt Pappas-P
142 54.1 1960 Chris Short-P (1991)
125 47.1 1961 Ron Perranoski-RP
139 38.5 1966 Tommie Agee-CF (2001)
115 43.1 1964 Gene Alley-SS
139 33.1 1962 Joe Pepitone-1B
103 35.9 1961 Bobby Bolin-P
106 33.1 1960 Eddie Fisher-RP
098 32.2 1963 Ray Culp-P
105 28.2 1965 Rick Reichardt-LF
108 25.7 1967 Mike Andrews-2B

1980 (June 26)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
443 118.4 1954 Al Kaline-RF
324 105.9 1960 Ron Santo-3B
315 95.1 1959 Norm Cash-1B (1986)
310 86.6 1958 Orlando Cepeda-1B
263 92.2 1960 Juan Marichal-P
241 62.0 1961 Dick McAuliffe-2B/SS
177 63.1 1964 Mel Stottlemyre-P
191 47.0 1963 Ron Hunt-2B
176 52.1 1962 Denis Menke-SS
179 47.8 1961 Matty Alou-CF
149 57.5 1961 Johnny Edwards-C
135 51.4 1957 Don McMahon-RP (1987)
148 41.1 1964 Jim Ray Hart-3B
125 42.4 1957 Juan Pizarro-P
124 40.7 1962 Bob Veale-P
117 42.4 1964 Dick Green-2B
116 36.4 1960 Steve Barber-P
108 38.9 1967 Don Wilson-P (1975)
127 30.3 1965 Horace Clarke-2B
096 39.2 1959 Bob Miller-RP (1993)
113 31.8 1962 Jim Hickman-RF/CF
125 26.9 1965 Glenn Beckert-2B
120 24.9 1967 Mike Epstein-1B
102 17.7 1965 Paul Schaal-3B

Interesting. So the Tigers really were the most consistently good team in the AL that period. The O's had that 7th in '67, the Twins slumped to 7th in '68, Boston 9-9-1(!), everybody else at least as low as 8th. The Tigs never below 4th.

1965--4th 13 GB under Dressen 2nd in R, 7th in ERA despite McLain's 16-6, 2.42. Lolich, Wickersham and Aguirre were way below league at #3-5 spots.

1966--3rd 10 GB Dressen died Swift died Skaff 2nd in R, 9th in ERA. McLain won 20 but skyed to 3.92, Lolich 4.76. Earl Wilson 2.60 in 23 starts after being acquired basically for Don Demeter (Wilson also 5 HR, .531 SA in 64 ABs).

1967--2nd tie (with Twins) 1 GB Mayo Smith, 2nd in R, 6th in ERA but within .1 of another 2 teams. Big chance. Basically a 4 man rotation: Wilson 22-11, 3.27, McLain 17-16, 3.79 Lolich 145-13, 3.04 Sparma 16-9, 3.76. Kaline missed 30 games with a broken arm , still led the Tigers in everything, Cash .242/.430 SA.

1968--1st 12 GA Mayo Smith. Too bad they didn't move 2 of those wins to '67. 1st in R, 2nd in ERA. Freehan has big year, everybody but Kaline is better than '67. Oh, except SS: Oyler 111 games .135, Tracewski 90 and .156, Matchick 80 and 203. McLain 31-6, 1.96 didn't hurt, Lolich and Wilson again good, Sparma not so good in basically a 4 man rotation again. 9 pitchers had saves, nobody more than 7.

1969--2nd in east 19 GB Smith. 5th in R, 4th in ERA. Obviously the hitting and pitching just didn't peak at the same time other than that overlap in '68. McLain and Lolich 43-20 and about 3.00 between them, Wilson still OK, Sparma in sharp decline. Dick McAuliffe misses half a year with a knee, and still no SS (Tom Tresh .224/.387 SA).

1970--4th 28 GB Smith, dropping under .500 for the first time since '63. 6th in R, 10th in ERA as Wilson and McLain both flop. Freehan and Horton are injured.

1971--2nd 12 GB Billy Martin 91 wins! Back to 2nd in R, but 8th in ERA, just like the mid-'60s. Lolich's big year and Joe Coleman wins 20, but Hiller is "ILL" and it's chaos throughout the rest of the staff. Horton has more injury trouble but Cash and Freehan come up pretty big.

1972--The last hurrah: 1st in east one-half game ahead of Boston. 5th in R but 1st in ERA! Lolich and Coleman start 80 games. They are Fryman (half the year) and Timmerman all under 3.00 and Slayback at 3.18. Seelbach, Scherman and Hiller (half a year) are stellar out of the bullpen. Kaline is injured, Cash leads the team with 61 RBI in 158 games, Freehan is not injured but catches just 105 games at age 30, the offense does squat. So they lose in the playoffs 3-2, 5-0 and 2-1 (and win 3-0 and 4-3 in 10). Lolich goes 19 IP in 2 games with ERA 1.42 and gets only one decision, a loss.

Anyway, no big surprise. Overall they just didn't jell the pitching, which was only really good for a couple years, with the hitting. Only once did both do well at the same time. There were some timely injuries though, frankly, not much more than you'd expect from a bunch of 30-somethings. If anybody seemed to decline a little bit young, it was Sparma and McLain.

Buyt if the Red Sox were the one team during that period that could be considered to be a fluke, as a Twins fan I forget that the Tigers could just as easily have won in '67 as the Twins. If either one had won it, there'd be none of that "failed expectations" about 'em. Damn Red Sox, anyway. Of course they led the league in R that year but were just 8th in ERA.

Amazing stat 1968, 2nd best ERA: Minnesota 3.14. Best ERA: Chicago 2.45! But almost 200 fewer R than Boston and about 150 less than the Twins and Tiggers.

Those were the days.

Wasn't it a 2.75 ERA for the White Sox in 1968?

Wasn't it a 2.75 ERA for the White Sox in 1968?

Looks like he meant 1967. CWS-67 was the lowest ERA team of that whole late-sixties pitching boom.

Continuing from #539 (or #562, if you'd rather). New eligibles 1981-85:

1981 (July 10)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
317 117.9 1959 Bob Gibson-P
371 99.2 1955 Harmon Killebrew-1B/3B
321 79.5 1958 Vada Pinson-CF (1995)
205 78.9 1959 Jim Perry-P
201 76.5 1960 Claude Osteen-P
199 69.4 1960 Leo Cardenas-SS
186 69.4 1956 Lindy McDaniel-RP
166 59.4 1962 Sam McDowell-P
168 56.0 1963 Dave McNally-P (2002)
144 53.4 1964 Sonny Siebert-P
159 42.2 1964 Johnny Briggs-LF
161 40.1 1965 Jim Northrup-RF
133 46.1 1966 Bill Hands-P
118 35.0 1962 Ed Brinkman-SS
110 36.2 1965 Ken Berry-CF
111 25.7 1964 Danny Cater-1B
1982 (July 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
643 199.8 1954 Hank Aaron-RF
519 153.3 1956 Frank Robinson-RF/LF
374 115.8 1961 Billy Williams-LF
322 94.6 1961 Willie Davis-CF
267 78.8 1963 Bill Freehan-C
245 63.9 1964 Tony Oliva-RF
205 66.2 1965 Rico Petrocelli-SS/3B
198 56.8 1958 Tony Taylor-2B
207 52.0 1960 Tommy Davis-LF
173 56.0 1964 Mike Cuellar-P
204 47.5 1963 Tommy Harper-LF/RF
178 40.0 1966 Cesar Tovar-CF/LF (1994)
141 39.9 1966 Cleon Jones-LF
121 45.0 1966 Fritz Peterson-P
130 41.1 1960 Ray Sadecki-P
146 35.5 1961 Deron Johnson-1B (1992)
108 39.0 1961 Jim Brewer-RP (1987)
122 28.6 1964 Alex Johnson-LF
114 30.9 1968 Nate Colbert-1B
1983 (August 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
356 111.1 1957 Brooks Robinson-3B
315 102.5 1961 Joe Torre-C/1B
342 90.0 1964 Dick Allen-1B/3B
305 88.6 1963 Jim Wynn-CF
282 69.4 1962 Boog Powell-1B
166 50.1 1967 Doug Rader-3B
175 46.1 1963 Ken McMullen-3B
133 49.2 1965 Larry Dierker-P
152 41.4 1966 Felix Millan-2B
123 47.8 1965 Clay Carroll-RP
144 38.3 1962 Cookie Rojas-2B
118 45.9 1962 Dave Giusti-RP
125 42.0 1963 Al Downing-P
112 41.2 1967 Pat Dobson-P
123 33.5 1965 Willie Crawford-RF (2004)
114 37.5 1966 Tommy Helms-2B
113 37.6 1967 Gary Nolan-P
112 37.7 1967 Bill Singer-P
103 39.1 1962 Diego Segui-RP
122 31.2 1968 Bill Melton-3B
120 31.7 1969 Carlos May-LF
115 28.2 1966 Bobby Tolan-CF/RF
1984 (August 21)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
269 75.3 1959 Ron Fairly-1B/RF
261 68.5 1962 Jim Fregosi-SS
190 78.0 1963 Wilbur Wood-P
189 55.4 1963 Bob Bailey-3B
171 56.3 1966 Davey Johnson-2B
127 44.6 1964 Jerry Grote-C
132 38.1 1966 Tito Fuentes-2B
122 40.8 1965 Jim Lonborg-P
116 41.4 1965 Nelson Briles-P (2005)
122 32.6 1965 Mickey Stanley-CF
110 31.6 1969 Wayne Garrett-3B
102 32.8 1970 Don Gullett-P
104 24.8 1965 Sandy Alomar-2B
1985 (September 4)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
348 82.4 1962 Lou Brock-LF
263 79.8 1966 Roy White-LF
224 80.3 1963 Mickey Lolich-P
206 77.1 1970 Thurman Munson-C (1979)
206 74.4 1965 Catfish Hunter-P (1999)
216 63.6 1966 George Scott-1B
204 60.3 1961 Tim McCarver-C
209 58.1 1964 Rico Carty-LF/DH
169 57.4 1968 Andy Mesersmith-P
157 56.3 1966 Ken Holtzman-P
159 42.1 1965 Don Kessinger-SS
129 47.5 1967 Joe Coleman-P
130 40.5 1969 Ted Sizemore-2B
121 35.7 1962 Manny Mota-LF/PH
115 37.8 1968 Dock Ellis-P
132 30.3 1963 Ed Kranepool-1B
100 39.3 1966 Darold Knowles-RP
100 37.0 1969 Jim Rooker-P
109 29.8 1969 Merv Rettenmund-RF/LF
111 28.7 1963 Vic Davalillo-CF

At first glance, Kaline, Santo, Marichal, Cepeda, Gibson, Cash, Killebrew,Aaron, F. Robinson, Williams, Freehan, B. Robinson, Torre, Allen, and Wynn all make my ballot between 1980-83; maybe Pinson, too.

Sixteen players on the ballot in four years. Criminy.

And Hank Aaron may not be a unanimous pick.

Wow.

1982 (July 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
643 199.8 1954 Hank Aaron-RF
519 153.3 1956 Frank Robinson-RF/LF
374 115.8 1961 Billy Williams-LF
322 94.6 1961 Willie Davis-CF
267 78.8 1963 Bill Freehan-C

Wow, talk about a tough year for the backlog. Two total NBs. A second-tier HOMer, a long-career HOVG CF, and one of the 15 best catchers ever, plus only an elect-2 year!

... with HOF-VC favorite Tony Oliva after those five.

And Hank Aaron may not be a unanimous pick.

I think, when the time comes, that people will find it pretty hard to make a case for Robinson over Aaron.

At first glance, Kaline, Santo, Marichal, Cepeda, Gibson, Cash, Killebrew,Aaron, F. Robinson, Williams, Freehan, B. Robinson, Torre, Allen, and Wynn all make my ballot between 1980-83; maybe Pinson, too.

Sixteen players on the ballot in four years. Criminy.

And by the end of the 1985 election, we'll have inducted about 12 of them. Here's my prediction.

1980 -- Kaline, Santo, Marichal.
1981 -- Gibson, Killebrew
1982 -- Aaron, F. Robinson
1983 -- Allen, B. Williams
1984 -- B. Robinson, Torre
1985 -- Freehan, Brock ?, +1 other from recent or older backlog

Cepeda, Cash, Wynn, and Pinson will have to contend with the backlog, so that I don't find it possible to predict now whom we'll elect in 1985, but I think the top 12 will all go right in over the backlog, so that we'll be electing some from the backlog again in 1986 and 1987, if not in 1985. Having Elect Three years come around frequently will help to clear out top-candidate jams pretty fast . . .

I wouldn't want to jump to the conclusion that Brooks will go in that quickly. In many ways Freehan has a more compelling case with a more higher and more concentrated peak. Especially for those inclined to bonus catchers, I think Freehan go by Brooksie.

Re Brooks Robinson: Although we argue a lot about long-career, relatively low-peak infielders, we elect them fairly quickly anyway. And Robinson's a position will be even less well-represented than catcher. My guess is that Freehan's relatively low career value, and his competition with Torre for top-dog catching honors, will slow him down a bit.

In my own preliminary rankings of 1960s stars, I have B. Robinson, Freehan, and Torre very close together, in that order, but my predictions were based on my sense of the electorate's usual priorities rather than on my own system.

And Hank Aaron may not be a unanimous pick.

I think, when the time comes, that people will find it pretty hard to make a case for Robinson over Aaron.

Indeed. Frank Robinson was a great, great player. He's in the "of course he's in the HOM, let's elect him as fast as we can" category. And he seems to have drawn the short straw in the fickle memory of history - if you ask a bunch of baseball fans to name several great outfielders, how many would remember and name Clemente but forgot about Robinson? Even though we're likely to have a very strong-looking backlog when he comes onto the ballot (Cash, Cepeda, Marichal, Pinson, Howard, and so on), he'll so tower over that backlog that he's got a shot at unanimous 2nd.

But he is fundamentally the same kind of player as Aaron, playing at the same time, and subject to many of the same influences. It will be unusually simple to make a direct head-to-head comparison of Aaron and Robinson - and as Chris suggests, I don't see any way not to have Aaron come out on top of that.

Robinson to Aaron as Musial to Williams?

Musial was a great, GREAT player, and is still living, even still making public appearnces/speeches, but he's almost completely out of the public BASEBALL consciousness vs. Williams, who's seemingly still constantly referred to.

And Hank Aaron may not be a unanimous pick.

I think, when the time comes, that people will find it pretty hard to make a case for Robinson over Aaron.

When I wrote that first line, I was wondering if an extreme peak voter might make an argument for Robinson.

Well, after checking more carefully, I do think someone could argue that Robinson's two best seasons are slightly better than Aaron's. (82 WS to 79 WS). Any other peak measure that I can think of--three, five, seven, or any consecutive seasons--and Aaron wins, at least by WS. And obviously Aaron trounces Robinson in career, which is really saying something.

Musial was a great, GREAT player, and is still living, even still making public appearnces/speeches, but he's almost completely out of the public BASEBALL consciousness vs. Williams, who's seemingly still constantly referred to.

An interesting possibility regarding the perception of Musial. Suppose that Albert Pujols were to maintain essentially his current playing ability for another five years, and then stay on for a good long career after that, and to play all or nearly all of his career for the Cardinals. Then - and maybe this discussion only happens in St. Louis - the claim that Pujols is the greatest Cardinal of all time will have to be proved by comparing Pujols to Musial, and the details of that comparison will force people to think about how great Musial truly was. Of course, for this conversation to involve a living Musial, he would have to live into or beyond his mid-90's; not very good actuarial odds there.

The interesting thing about F.Robby is that he is in the public baseball conciousness - as a manager, as an ex-league official, and oh, yeah, I guess he was a player back then.

I don't see Torre lapping the backlog so easily either (either in re. Brooksie).

Meanwhile I'm a huge Bill Freehan fan. Playing in the '60s disadvantages him substantially. But I see him as backlog or HoVG.

Finally, does anybody remember Willie Davis as being half the player that his numbers suggest? Nobody has ever said he was in the Torre-Jimmy Wynn-Vada Pinson class but that is what the numbers say. A backlogger at best but deserving of consideration.

I remember Davis being well regarded, especially his baserunning and defense, but his offensive "numbers" were always very depressed by playing in LA.

Davis also seemed to have had more difficulty than most players with the enlarged strike zone from 1963-68. His OPS+ was 115 in 1962 at age 22 and 134 in 1969 at age 29, but he doesn't exhibit the normal progression and peak during the intervening seasons. Davis's strike zone judgment was never particularly good, but it seems to have taken a tumble between 1962 and 1963, never to fully recover.

Finally, does anybody remember Willie Davis as being half the player that his numbers suggest?

A few thoughts:
1) Davis racks up good career numbers due to his longevity. IIRC, only Mays and Speaker played more games in CF.
2) Davis was snowed under by the extraordinary quality among 1960's-70's NL outfielders. Mays, Aaron, Clemente, Robinson, Stargell, Williams, Brock, Pinson, Flood, Callison, Rose, Staub, the Alous, et al.
3) I don't have the stats in front of me, but Davis played two years in Japan in 1977-78 rather than shoot for 3000 hits.

Willie Davis was a respected defender but I think his case depends on his being a GREAT defender. Was he? WS has him as an A which for a CF means somewhere barely north of mediocre.

In the NBJHBA, James translated Davis' career into a 750 runs per year context. He wasn't saying this is what Davis would have hit, but that the numbers represent the same value as Davis' numbers, but in a neutral context as opposed to Dodger Stadium in the 1960s.

Real numbers on top, translated numbers on bottom.

G    AB   Runs Hits 2B  3B  HR  RBI  SB  CS  BB  K   Avg. OBP  SLG
2429 9174 1217 2561 395 138 182 1053 398 131 418 977 .279 .311 .412
2429 9473 1462 2860 447 154 201 1250 457 NA  459 977 .302 .334 .445

The translated years have him with 4 years with 200 hits and 2 more at 196, 197. 2 years over 100
RBI, and 4 more over 90. 8 years hitting over .300, and 4 other over .290.
In a 750-run context, I believe he would have had 3000 hits. The 1976 year (.268 / .295 / .375 / OPS 97) translates to .299 / .328 / .421. The Padres at the time had Randy Jones, Dave Winfield, and Rollie Fingers. They would have kept Davis for another year for a run at 3000 hits. His translated numbers give him an established hits at 159. If I remember the Favorite Toy calculations, it would give him a 97% chance of getting 3000 hits.

Remember, the translated numbers are NOT what James says Davis WOULD hit, but are equivalent in value to Davis' actual production, only in a 750-run context.

Food for thought in 8 months.

It seems to be conventional wisdom that star players don't become godo managers but right here was have two star players and probable HOMers who have been very good managers. Frank Robinson is obivously a 1st tier guy (if not inner circle) and has had a very good managing career. Oddly enough he has ahd a number of very tough managing jobs and been successful in all of them. Meanwhile Joe Torre should be a lock for a manager's wing of the HOM (should we make one) if only because he coudl handle the Boss.

Though I can think of tons of star players who didn't work out as managers (Trammel, Hornsby, etc.) and many great managers who were mediocre or even dreadful players (La Russa, Mack, Stengel, etc.)

I'm not sure that Trammell didn't work out. His roster left just a little to be desired.

Bill Russell was the first black NBA coach, Frank Robinson the first black MLB manager. Two of a kind.

While they aren't in the LaRussa, Mack, Stengel class (not many are) I thought I'd toss in my two cents on decent players turned decent managers. How about Joe Cronin, John McGraw, Lou Boudreau, Bill Terry, Frankie Frisch, Fred Clarke, Clark Griffith, and while not necassarily HOM material Alou, Piniella, Hargrove, Bucky Harris? Was Hornsby really that bad as a manager? 1 World Series title and 1 League Title. From 1933 on, he really didn't have much to work with. Kind of the same situation as Trammell.

Cronin was said to be pretty terrible in handling pitchers. Terry didn't seem to be too highly thought of.

Hornsby won the Cardinals' first pennant ever in '26 as player-manager, the Cards had been a joke for most of their history. After that I think his ego got in the way.

Clarke was good. Boudreau had one great year but didn't do much otherwise.

McGraw? Where have I heard that name?

Was Hornsby really that bad as a manager? 1 World Series title and 1 League Title. From 1933 on, he really didn't have much to work with. Kind of the same situation as Trammell.

Hornsby might have been a very good manager, but the love of betting on horse races I believe put him in debt much of the time, which always made him a danger that "gambling interests" might pressure him to start throwing games.

Some of this may be in the modern era. Player managers that were stars had themselves on the team. I do know that Jim Rice was a bad hitting coach because he couldn't take those who weren't as good as him, Lenny Dysktra had similar patience as a minor league coach. Plus, it is only convential wisdom, making it highly dubious anyway.

Finally, does anybody remember Willie Davis as being half the player that his numbers suggest?

Yes, but not so good as Bill James says.

The Willie Davis numbers jump incredibly in 1969: fanning down, hitting up (walking steady, having jumped up in 1967). People of a certain age were focusing on the war just then, or on sex, drugs, and rock and roll. So his prime-age 25-28 years dominate, 1965-68 with OPS+ 93 in 2500 appearances!

Nobody has ever said he was in the Torre-Jimmy Wynn-Vada Pinson class but that is what the numbers say. A backlogger at best but deserving of consideration.

and not so good as Marc sdy2 says! :-)

Pinson was over the hill at age 25-28. People my age can find the good Vada only by internet, so Willie Davis looks better by introspection alone. The numbers say, can we believe it, Vada Pinson was better than Willie Davis!

-- Hughie Jennings won three pennants as a manager (after he had stopped playing) and has 1100+ wins
-- Red Schoendienst is in the HOF as a player but probably with an assist by his managing.
-- Davey Johnson was a pretty good hitting 2B-man
-- Al Lopez had a long and decent career as a catcher

Um, Frank Chance or Cap Anson anyone?

Whew,
I feel old with Willie Davis and Vada Pinson baseball cars in my closet..

er, "baseball carDS"

Willie Davis in Japan
from the Official Baseball Guide 1978, 1979

YearClub                  GABHHRBIBA
1977Chunichi Dragons   72288882563.306
1978Crown Lighter Lions1275091491869.293

Year Club        G  AB  H  HR  BI  BA
1977 Chunichi Dragons     72 288 88 25 63 .306
1978 Crown Lighter Lions 127 509 149 18 69 .293

I think we said that Japanese records would be considered for players who have significant ML or at least North American careers, a la Ichiro! I wonder if Willie Davis is the first to need some Japanese MLEs? Anybody want to hazard what his Japanese record is worth in MLEs?

Didn't Doby and/or Easter have some Japan time?

The question for me will be whether or not Davis was done before he went to Japan.

It will be fun to see what W Cromartie and C Fielder's careers look like with their Japanese years added in.

Willie Davis' OPS+ was 104-~100-98-then 70 in 43 games in his last 4 ML seasons. Was he done? Two things--was he hurt in his final year? And was he still playing defense at a high level (was he ever playing defense at a really high level, per #82 above)?

Beyond that, what does a .300 avg and 43 HR in 200 games in Japan translate to in MLEs in the late 1970s? Let's just say for the sake of example that it translates to 20 HR and .275 and he was still an above average CF. Then the translation says he's not done, right? I mean it's not strictly a question of whether he looked done in '79 if his MLE for '80-'81 says otherwise,right?

I don't know the answer, it's sort of a methodological question.

for those looking slightly ahead, this is crbbed from above, and cut to only list the more likely candidates (top 3 MLB listed no matter what):

1967 (December 26)-elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
166 75.6 1948 Ned Garver-P (living)
203 48.1 1948 Ted Kluszewski-1B (1988)
187 53.2 1950 Jackie Jensen-RF (1982)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 46-61 Bob Boyd-1B (1926) #9 1b – 0 – 1*
00% 43-61 Marvin Williams-2B (1923) – 0 – 1*

1968 (January 9)-elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
329 106.0 1948 Richie Ashburn-CF (1997)
262 85.6 1945 Red Schoendienst-2B (living)
267 65.4 1647 Eddie Yost-3B (living)

1969 (January 23)-elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
604 188.1 1942 Stan Musial-LF/1B (living)
375 119.5 1947 Yogi Berra-C (living)
309 107.9 1941 Early Wynn-P (1999)
263 76.6 1947 Gil Hodges-1B (1972)
209 69.8 1947 Sherm Lollar-C (1977)

1970 (February 6)-elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
352 103.6 1948 Duke Snider-CF (living)
283 79.6 1951 Minnie Minoso-LF (living)
248 88.8 1948 Billy Pierce-P (living)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 45-64 Minnie Minoso-3B/OF (1922) – 0 – 1*

1971 (February 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
412 161.8 1946 Warren Spahn-P (2003)
304 83.7 1949 Nellie Fox-2B (1975)
231 60.9 1949 Roy Sievers-1B/LF
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 46-66 Junior Gilliam-2B (1928) 0 – 0*

The obligatory recopying of the eligibles now that the thread has scrolled. All of this is courtesy of DanG.

1967 (December 26)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
166 75.6 1948 Ned Garver-P (living) 
203 48.1 1948 Ted Kluszewski-1B (1988) 
187 53.2 1950 Jackie Jensen-RF (1982) 
184 53.6 1947 Earl Torgeson-1B (1990) 
187 48.5 1942 Elmer Valo-RF (1998) 
160 57.0 1949 Mike Garcia-P (1986) 
180 47.7 1949 Hank Bauer-RF (living) 
146 60.0 1949 Johnny Antonelli-P (living) 
138 51.8 1947 Gerry Staley-RP (living) 
110 36.3 1945 Del Rice-C (1983) 
099 40.3 1949 Chuck Stobbs-P (living) 
096 35.8 1951 Clem Labine-RP (living) 
107 26.3 1952 Jim Rivera-RF/CF (living) 
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 46-61 Bob Boyd-1B (1926) #9 1b – 0 – 1* 
00% 43-61 Marvin Williams-2B (1923) – 0 – 1*

1968 (January 9)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
329 106.0 1948 Richie Ashburn-CF (1997) 
262 85.6 1945 Red Schoendienst-2B (living) 
267 65.4 1647 Eddie Yost-3B (living) 
228 63.5 1946 Gene Woodling-LF (2001) 
175 46.2 1950 Gus Bell-CF/RF (1995) 
170 42.5 1948 Billy Goodman-2B/1B (1984) 
142 36.2 1947 Dave Philley-RF/CF (living) 
134 35.2 1952 Bob Nieman-LF (1985) 
107 36.0 1950 Danny O'Connell-2B (1969) 
112 29.5 1951 Jim Busby-CF (1996) 

1969 (January 23)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
604 188.1 1942 Stan Musial-LF/1B (living) 
375 119.5 1947 Yogi Berra-C (living) 
309 107.9 1941 Early Wynn-P (1999) 
263 76.6 1947 Gil Hodges-1B (1972) 
209 69.8 1947 Sherm Lollar-C (1977) 
219 57.4 1947 Vic Wertz-RF/1B (1983) 
181 62.8 1951 Johnny Logan-SS (living) 
157 40.7 1952 Johnny Temple-2B (1994) 
132 45.3 1954 Don Hoak-3B (1969) 
118 45.3 1954 Frank Sullivan-P (living) 
116 37.8 1952 Wally Post-RF (1982) 
117 31.8 1951 Charlie Maxwell-LF (living) 
102 28.8 1953 Daryl Spencer-SS/2B (living) 
103 24.0 1954 Jim Lemon-RF/LF (living) 
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 3?-63 Diomedes Olivo-P (1919) – 0 – 0
??????????  Alonzo Perry

1970 (February 6)-elect 2 
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
352 103.6 1948 Duke Snider-CF (living) 
283 79.6 1951 Minnie Minoso-LF (living) 
248 88.8 1948 Billy Pierce-P (living) 
216 58.5 1951 Pete Runnels-2B/1B (1991) 
159 64.8 1949 Bobby Shantz-RP (living) 
190 50.9 1953 Bill Bruton-CF (1995) 
194 42.9 1953 Al Smith-RF/LF (2002) 
103 39.8 1955 Sam Jones-P (1971)
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
04% 45-64 Minnie Minoso-3B/OF (1922) – 0 – 1* 
00% 44-64 Luis Marquez-CF/IF (1925) – 0 – 0*

1971 (February 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
412 161.8 1946 Warren Spahn-P (2003)
304 83.7 1949 Nellie Fox-2B (1975)
231 60.9 1949 Roy Sievers-1B/LF
153 62.4 1953 Harvey Haddix-P (1994)
175 51.9 1954 Wally Moon-LF/RF
169 49.1 1951 Frank Thomas-LF/3B
157 46.9 1955 Bill Virdon-CF
145 51.0 1954 Ed Bailey-C
141 53.0 1955 Frank Lary-P
152 45.2 1954 Vic Power-1B
127 42.5 1955 Gus Triandos-C
127 42.0 1952 Dick Donovan-P (1997)
120 42.6 1954 Don Mossi-P
131 32.8 1954 Joe Cunningham-1B/RF
120 32.9 1957 Tony Kubek-SS
095 34.8 1953 Don Larsen-P
104 27.9 1958 Albie Pearson-CF
HF% Career Name-pos (born) BJ – MVP - All-Star
00% 46-66 Junior Gilliam-2B (1928) 0 – 0*

1972 (March 6)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
339 134.2 1948 Robin Roberts-P
207 87.4 1951 Bob Friend-P
247 65.6 1953 Jim Gilliam-2B/3B (1978)
236 69.1 1950 Joe Adcock-1B (1999)
223 55.8 1953 Harvey Kuenn-SS/RF (1988)
194 68.9 1955 Sandy Koufax-P
179 70.0 1949 Del Crandall-C
172 64.1 1951 Roy McMillan-SS (1997)
147 57.9 1952 Joe Nuxhall-P
162 50.7 1952 Jim Piersall-CF
147 50.3 1953 Bob Buhl-P (2001)
141 49.6 1954 Frank Bolling-2B
135 42.4 1956 Frank Malzone-3B
122 49.2 1954 Bob Purkey-P
140 37.3 1956 Don Blasingame-2B
137 37.3 1954 Bob Skinner-LF
136 33.1 1955 Hector Lopez-LF/3B
125 33.3 1960 Jim Gentile-1B
105 40.1 1952 Billy Hoeft-P
103 40.7 1953 Ray Herbert-P
105 30.0 1957 Ralph Terry-P
104 29.2 1956 Wes Covington-LF
120 22.3 1957 Bobby Richardson-2B
114 21.1 1958 Dick Stuart-1B (2002)

1973 (March 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
261 89.5 1950 Whitey Ford-P
225 76.6 1952 Dick Groat-SS
210 78.0 1948 Curt Simmons-P
178 67.7 1952 Lew Burdette-P
157 67.9 1950 Vern Law-P
154 61.7 1952 Stu Miller-RP
172 54.3 1951 Smoky Burgess-C/PH (1991)
183 43.2 1954 Bill Skowron-1B
143 54.7 1953 Johnny Podres-P
151 47.2 1957 Jim Landis-CF
142 48.5 1957 Earl Battey-C (2003)
136 42.4 1959 Johnny Romano-C
123 44.8 1957 Billy O’Dell-P
115 43.7 1957 Jack Sanford-P (2000)
114 39.3 1958 Bob Shaw-P
127 34.2 1957 Jerry Lumpe-2B
103 40.7 1950 Johnny Klippstein-RP
122 32.4 1956 Jackie Brandt-CF
108 33.7 1956 Eddie Bressoud-SS
099 33.4 1959 Jim O’Toole-P
103 28.6 1958 Don Demeter-CF

1974 (April 3)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
565 154.4 1951 Mickey Mantle-CF (1995)
450 130.5 1952 Eddie Mathews-3B (2001)
273 74.3 1956 Rocky Colavito-RF
225 87.6 1955 Larry Jackson-P (1990)
203 63.8 1955 Elston Howard-C (1980)
223 53.7 1957 Roger Maris-RF (1985)
171 43.2 1956 Norm Siebern-1B
110 41.1 1958 Bill Monbouquette-P
132 30.7 1961 Floyd Robinson-RF
087 30.7 1952 Bill Henry-RP

1975 (April 17)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
279 94.7 1955 Ken Boyer-3B (1982)
258 101.9 1956 Don Drysdale-P (1993)
221 68.4 1958 Curt Flood-CF (1997)
209 62.6 1956 Bill White-1B
139 59.0 1953 Roy Face-RP
153 48.9 1957 Woodie Held-SS/CF
160 42.0 1962 Tom Tresh-LF/SS
155 36.7 1958 Leon Wagner-LF (2004)
124 52.1 1957 Turk Farrell-RP (1977)
123 48.9 1955 Pedro Ramos-P
116 41.1 1958 Gary Bell-P
106 42.6 1953 Al Worthington-RP
108 33.3 1962 Ed Charles-3B
095 35.5 1960 Ken Johnson-P
084 33.9 1962 Dick Radatz-RP (2005)

1976 (May 1)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
203 54.8 1959 Bob Allison-RF/LF (1995)
181 62.1 1958 Johnny Roseboro-C (2002)
165 35.8 1956 Tito Francona-LF/1B
132 54.2 1952 Ron Kline-RP
126 47.0 1960 Earl Wilson-P (2005)
118 46.5 1957 Mike McCormick-P
116 34.9 1958 Jim Davenport-3B
099 38.8 1957 Don Cardwell-P
117 25.5 1963 Pete Ward-3B
098 31.8 1956 Hank Aguirre-RP (1994)
100 23.8 1963 Jimmie Hall-CF/LF

1977 (May 15)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
332 115.0 1954 Ernie Banks-SS/1B
257 90.6 1955 Jim Bunning-P
175 71.3 1954 Camilo Pascual-P
183 51.0 1960 Tony Gonzalez-CF
160 52.9 1955 Clete Boyer-3B
145 49.7 1958 Jim “Mudcat” Grant-P
137 52.0 1960 Jim Maloney-P
148 47.4 1962 Dean Chance-P
134 36.3 1961 Zoilo Versalles-SS (1995)
114 42.0 1958 Stan Williams-P
114 41.8 1960 Dick Ellsworth-P
110 40.8 1955 Dick Hall-RP
123 31.0 1959 Lee Maye-LF/RF (2002)
118 32.1 1961 Chuck Hinton-LF/RF
096 37.4 1960 Clay Dalrymple-C
109 31.3 1962 Mack Jones-CF/LF (2004)
105 24.3 1964 Tony Conigliaro-RF (1990)

1978 (May 29)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
377 122.4 1955 Roberto Clemente-RF (1972)
256 92.4 1952 Hoyt Wilhelm-RP (2002)
219 86.5 1956 Bill Mazeroski-2B
253 71.6 1959 Maury Wills-SS
179 56.5 1962 Tom Haller-C (2004)
194 44.7 1964 Don Buford-LF/2B
148 48.2 1964 Wes Parker-1B
162 41.2 1961 Don Mincher-1B
145 42.9 1960 Ron Hansen-SS
133 47.9 1963 Gary Peters-P
135 43.4 1960 Julian Javier-2B
119 45.1 1962 Joe Horlen-P
136 38.5 1962 Donn Clendenon-1B
108 42.4 1956 Moe Drabowsky-RP
115 34.6 1964 Denny McLain-P
107 37.0 1955 Ted Abernathy-RP
100 35.2 1960 Phil Regan-RP
097 34.7 1964 Bobby Knoop-2B
108 27.6 1965 Curt Blefary-LF (2001)
106 28.3 1965 Jim Lefebvre-2B

1979 (June 12)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
642 208.1 1951 Willie Mays-CF
293 85.0 1956 Luis Aparicio-SS
297 73.9 1960 Frank Howard-LF/RF
241 70.6 1959 Johnny Callison-RF
241 59.2 1958 Felipe Alou-RF/CF
210 71.1 1958 Milt Pappas-P
142 54.1 1960 Chris Short-P (1991)
125 47.1 1961 Ron Perranoski-RP
139 38.5 1966 Tommie Agee-CF (2001)
115 43.1 1964 Gene Alley-SS
139 33.1 1962 Joe Pepitone-1B
103 35.9 1961 Bobby Bolin-P
106 33.1 1960 Eddie Fisher-RP
098 32.2 1963 Ray Culp-P
105 28.2 1965 Rick Reichardt-LF
108 25.7 1967 Mike Andrews-2B

1980 (June 26)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
443 118.4 1954 Al Kaline-RF
324 105.9 1960 Ron Santo-3B
315 95.1 1959 Norm Cash-1B (1986)
310 86.6 1958 Orlando Cepeda-1B
263 92.2 1960 Juan Marichal-P
241 62.0 1961 Dick McAuliffe-2B/SS
177 63.1 1964 Mel Stottlemyre-P
191 47.0 1963 Ron Hunt-2B
176 52.1 1962 Denis Menke-SS
179 47.8 1961 Matty Alou-CF
149 57.5 1961 Johnny Edwards-C
135 51.4 1957 Don McMahon-RP (1987)
148 41.1 1964 Jim Ray Hart-3B
125 42.4 1957 Juan Pizarro-P
124 40.7 1962 Bob Veale-P
117 42.4 1964 Dick Green-2B
116 36.4 1960 Steve Barber-P
108 38.9 1967 Don Wilson-P (1975)
127 30.3 1965 Horace Clarke-2B
096 39.2 1959 Bob Miller-RP (1993)
113 31.8 1962 Jim Hickman-RF/CF
125 26.9 1965 Glenn Beckert-2B
120 24.9 1967 Mike Epstein-1B
102 17.7 1965 Paul Schaal-3B

1981 (July 10)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
317 117.9 1959 Bob Gibson-P
371 99.2 1955 Harmon Killebrew-1B/3B
321 79.5 1958 Vada Pinson-CF (1995)
205 78.9 1959 Jim Perry-P
201 76.5 1960 Claude Osteen-P
199 69.4 1960 Leo Cardenas-SS
186 69.4 1956 Lindy McDaniel-RP
166 59.4 1962 Sam McDowell-P
168 56.0 1963 Dave McNally-P (2002)
144 53.4 1964 Sonny Siebert-P
159 42.2 1964 Johnny Briggs-LF
161 40.1 1965 Jim Northrup-RF
133 46.1 1966 Bill Hands-P
118 35.0 1962 Ed Brinkman-SS
110 36.2 1965 Ken Berry-CF
111 25.7 1964 Danny Cater-1B
1982 (July 24)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
643 199.8 1954 Hank Aaron-RF
519 153.3 1956 Frank Robinson-RF/LF
374 115.8 1961 Billy Williams-LF
322 94.6 1961 Willie Davis-CF
267 78.8 1963 Bill Freehan-C
245 63.9 1964 Tony Oliva-RF
205 66.2 1965 Rico Petrocelli-SS/3B
198 56.8 1958 Tony Taylor-2B
207 52.0 1960 Tommy Davis-LF
173 56.0 1964 Mike Cuellar-P
204 47.5 1963 Tommy Harper-LF/RF
178 40.0 1966 Cesar Tovar-CF/LF (1994)
141 39.9 1966 Cleon Jones-LF
121 45.0 1966 Fritz Peterson-P
130 41.1 1960 Ray Sadecki-P
146 35.5 1961 Deron Johnson-1B (1992)
108 39.0 1961 Jim Brewer-RP (1987)
122 28.6 1964 Alex Johnson-LF
114 30.9 1968 Nate Colbert-1B
1983 (August 7)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
356 111.1 1957 Brooks Robinson-3B
315 102.5 1961 Joe Torre-C/1B
342 90.0 1964 Dick Allen-1B/3B
305 88.6 1963 Jim Wynn-CF
282 69.4 1962 Boog Powell-1B
166 50.1 1967 Doug Rader-3B
175 46.1 1963 Ken McMullen-3B
133 49.2 1965 Larry Dierker-P
152 41.4 1966 Felix Millan-2B
123 47.8 1965 Clay Carroll-RP
144 38.3 1962 Cookie Rojas-2B
118 45.9 1962 Dave Giusti-RP
125 42.0 1963 Al Downing-P
112 41.2 1967 Pat Dobson-P
123 33.5 1965 Willie Crawford-RF (2004)
114 37.5 1966 Tommy Helms-2B
113 37.6 1967 Gary Nolan-P
112 37.7 1967 Bill Singer-P
103 39.1 1962 Diego Segui-RP
122 31.2 1968 Bill Melton-3B
120 31.7 1969 Carlos May-LF
115 28.2 1966 Bobby Tolan-CF/RF
1984 (August 21)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
269 75.3 1959 Ron Fairly-1B/RF
261 68.5 1962 Jim Fregosi-SS
190 78.0 1963 Wilbur Wood-P
189 55.4 1963 Bob Bailey-3B
171 56.3 1966 Davey Johnson-2B
127 44.6 1964 Jerry Grote-C
132 38.1 1966 Tito Fuentes-2B
122 40.8 1965 Jim Lonborg-P
116 41.4 1965 Nelson Briles-P (2005)
122 32.6 1965 Mickey Stanley-CF
110 31.6 1969 Wayne Garrett-3B
102 32.8 1970 Don Gullett-P
104 24.8 1965 Sandy Alomar-2B
1985 (September 4)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died) 
348 82.4 1962 Lou Brock-LF
263 79.8 1966 Roy White-LF
224 80.3 1963 Mickey Lolich-P
206 77.1 1970 Thurman Munson-C (1979)
206 74.4 1965 Catfish Hunter-P (1999)
216 63.6 1966 George Scott-1B
204 60.3 1961 Tim McCarver-C
209 58.1 1964 Rico Carty-LF/DH
169 57.4 1968 Andy Mesersmith-P
157 56.3 1966 Ken Holtzman-P
159 42.1 1965 Don Kessinger-SS
129 47.5 1967 Joe Coleman-P
130 40.5 1969 Ted Sizemore-2B
121 35.7 1962 Manny Mota-LF/PH
115 37.8 1968 Dock Ellis-P
132 30.3 1963 Ed Kranepool-1B
100 39.3 1966 Darold Knowles-RP
100 37.0 1969 Jim Rooker-P
109 29.8 1969 Merv Rettenmund-RF/LF
111 28.7 1963 Vic Davalillo-CF 

1971 (February 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
412 161.8 1946 Warren Spahn-P (2003)

All the references that I've looked at say that Spahn was elected to the HoF in 1973, his first year of eligibility. None of them explain why he wasn't eligible until 1973 if he retired in 1965. Anybody know?

Others are better with historical matters than I, but I think Spahn may have been delayed because his career ended the way Rickey Henderson's is ending. When he couldn't get a job in the majors in 1966, he pitched elsewhere (I think in Mexico, perhaps, or in the minors??). Depending upon how the Hall treated retirements, Spahn might not have officially retired and gotten the eligibility clock started until after the 1967 season.

That's my guess, anyway.

Or maybe they just forgot to put him on until 1973?

I know Spahn pitched for a AAA team in Tulsa in the 1960's. I'm not sure, but I think he was a player-manager.

This is a thowback (as Henderson is a throwback, and also Pat Borders). In an earlier age, it was common for the high minors to be full of former major leaguers, including stars, working their way back down.

Spahn officially retired after he was player-manager for Tulsa in the PCL in 1967. He was a manager-only in 1968 & 69.

We have Spahn as eligible in 1971, which would be right. In the case of Rickey Henderson, I would assume that his 30 G, 84 PA for the Dodgers in 2003 is above token and he becomes eligible in 2009. And Tim Raines's 98 G, 114 PA in 2002 pushes his case to being eligible in 2008.

I have been told by HOF employees that their eligibility rules are as Chris and KJOK explain above. According to Daguerreotypes, Spahn pitched 3 G, 10 IP for the Mexico City Tigers in 1966. Then 3 G and 7 IP for Tulsa in 1967. This delayed his HOF eligibility until 1973.

However, like everything else the Coop does, this rule has been selectively applied. It only seems to apply to the more famous players (sometimes). Most players I find who ended their career in the minors did not have their eligibility delayed.

The most ridiculous example is Harvey Kuenn, who retired in 1966. He should have been eligible for the 1972 election. However, in September 1971, the Brewers activated him as a player, in order to achieve a service milestone for pension purposes. He was released in October, after not playing in any games. The BBWAA then saw fit to delay his eligibility until 1977!!!!

Don't get me started.

Anyway, the eligibility years that OCF has for Henderson and Raines I agree with, and are consistent with precedent. Although, I can see an argument for Raines possibly being eligible in 2005.

Thanks, Dan. Seems like business as usual with the HOF, don't you think?

Exactly, John. You know, I think I'll point y'all to a discussion on another site. I already sent an email to you and a couple others about this, regarding the HOF's forgetting to include Ken Caminiti on the upcoming ballot.

This is the link

Typical Example of the Coop's Blithe Nonchalance

BTW, my alias at Baseball Fever is Freakshow. Enjoy.

Very interesting, DanG.
I actually know Jack O'Connell; he is a wonderful guy, and I am not surprised you got an honest response from him.

One has to realize a few things:
- Jack works fulltime, long and hard, for the Hartford Courant. In effect, the HOF is 'his' leisure-time activity as well. Not even sure if he gets paid for this extra duty.
- At the risk of beinf indelicate, reporters' brains are not like those of HOM voters and similar baseball fans. Few, if any, of them could even generate a database of the sort suggested. I'm probably as close to a 'liaison' as anyone, I suppose, and I can tell you that I am outclassed in database skills by virtually every voter here. On the other hand, few, if any, of you guys could write a column interesting enough to get you a fulltime job in the business (though you could write something with plenty of valuable information, which is not quite the same thing).

Maybe I've just ticked off both reporters and HOM voters; if so, I apologize. My point is that Jack probably does that HOF job as well as any reporter can do.

With all that said, it IS true that it would be better to be more accurate with the voting. A number of past mistakes are noted in the thread, not just the omission of Caminiti. I guess the BBWAA may be entirely run by "BBW"s, or baseball writers.
Ideally, the BBWAA would cross-reference its list with one generated by an independent source. That way, no one falls through the cracks.

Jack's a pretty fair guy; maybe something can be worked out.
But DanG, you will find yourself having to choose between two paths. I know you get frustrated about these errors, but you have to decide if you want to focus more on slapping the BBWAA upside the head, or seeking a real solution for the future. If you seem like a smart-ass to them, the opportunity likely will be lost. That's just human nature.

Hell, I'll even volunteer. You guys give me your list, I send it over to Jack.
Nobel Peace Prize, here I come!

Thanks for fleshing out the situation for us, Howie. I was maybe a little hard on Jack.

But, as the saying goes, "If one person could do it, you wouldn't need AARP." That is, if one brilliant "crackpot" came to the HOF with a cure for cancer, or at least a perfect voting procedure, he would get the polite brushoff, and "BTW, are you subscribed to our newsletter" sort of response. That's basically all I've ever gotten from them.

I work for the Catholic church, so I've had a little experience in dealing with monolithic governing bodies. Change must ultimately come from within. A controversy is often an effective way to persuade these organizations that reform is needed.

That's all a long way of saying I've largely given up the direct approach with the HOF and turned to bringing light to the problems (as I perceive them). So, the spin I go for publicly is towards engendering outrage.

We at the HoM should produce a list of players newly eligible for the 2007 election. We should include important data about each candidate, too. Since the BBWAA screens these candidates in June, we should get it to them in the early spring, after the winter's elections are done.

If a person like yourself can pick up this, along with ideas for reform, and be a bridge between divergent cultures, that is always a great thing.

Besides which, if I understand you, Howie, a BBWAA volunteer basically keeps the books for the idiots in Cooperstown. Well, once again, the fault lies at the heart of the beast, doesn't it. Would it break the bank if the multi-million dollar organization with how many staffers kept their own freakin' books? If it would, then I want to volunteer to handle the freakin' check book.

I really don't know how it works, and don't claim to.

But you do have two very separate entities. The Hall of Fame is the Cooperstown thing. The BBWAA is a collection of baseball writers, who by the way do the voting for the people who get into the Hall of Fame, among other things. Neither one has a hierarchal edge over the other, exactly. It's apples and oranges.
It may be that the Hall leaves it to the BBWAA to keep track of all these things. I suppose they could try to 'order' the BBWAA to do something, but then the BBWAA is not reliant on the Hall to survive. I think both are happy with the current arrangement (although there is a small movement afoot in journalism to stop voting for things like Heisman Trophy, college football top 25, now even MVP awards. The idea is that players' substantial bonuses mean that writers, in effect, could be helping determine the finances of someone they cover - which is not ideal. If that concept starts to spread to the Hall of Fame, changes might be needed someday).

Overall, I think we would agree that they have done a very good job over the years with selections. Nearly every silly HOF member came via Veteran's Committee.

We're just noticing that an extra level of care is needed to round out the details. I would like to see that, too.

I am surprised that the BBWAA is responsible for identifying the formally eligible candidates each year, in addition to the subsquent screening (nominating some, commonly not al, of those formally eligible). Regarding an earlier generation of mistakes, Bill Deane privately observed that NBHOFM VP Bill Guilfoile maintained the list personally, that it was a perk of the office. Maybe the BBWAA won some more power in the last decade. Neither the BBWAA nor the NBHOFM should put together a database here, nor should it welcome a list of new eligibles from the HOM. One of them --the NBHOFM, in my opinion-- should order it from someone who maintains a database.

It's barely possible that the BBWAA has intended that with Elias. Barely because Jack O'Connell pretty clearly takes the blame.

Paul,
I make no claims for what the exact process is.
I think we all agree that it can be improved, and that constructive dialogue is the way to achieve it.

Could we get an early discussion thread for Red Schoendienst? Elected to that OTHER hall in 1989, lots of career Win Shares and WARP and hits and stuff, but I just don't see it at all; can he even stand up next to Gordon or Doerr, who are languishing in our backlog?

bumping for leading 1970s candidates..

1970 (February 6)-elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
352 103.6 1948 Duke Snider-CF (living)
283 79.6 1951 Minnie Minoso-LF (living)
248 88.8 1948 Billy Pierce-P (living)

1971 (February 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
412 161.8 1946 Warren Spahn-P (2003)
304 83.7 1949 Nellie Fox-2B (1975)

1972 (March 6)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
339 134.2 1948 Robin Roberts-P
207 87.4 1951 Bob Friend-P
247 65.6 1953 Jim Gilliam-2B/3B (1978)
194 68.9 1955 Sandy Koufax-P

1973 (March 20)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
261 89.5 1950 Whitey Ford-P
225 76.6 1952 Dick Groat-SS
210 78.0 1948 Curt Simmons-P

1974 (April 3)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
565 154.4 1951 Mickey Mantle-CF (1995)
450 130.5 1952 Eddie Mathews-3B (2001)
273 74.3 1956 Rocky Colavito-RF
225 87.6 1955 Larry Jackson-P (1990)
203 63.8 1955 Elston Howard-C (1980)
223 53.7 1957 Roger Maris-RF (1985)

1975 (April 17)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
279 94.7 1955 Ken Boyer-3B (1982)
258 101.9 1956 Don Drysdale-P (1993)
221 68.4 1958 Curt Flood-CF (1997)
139 59.0 1953 Roy Face-RP

1976 (May 1)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
203 54.8 1959 Bob Allison-RF/LF (1995)
181 62.1 1958 Johnny Roseboro-C (2002)

1977 (May 15)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
332 115.0 1954 Ernie Banks-SS/1B
257 90.6 1955 Jim Bunning-P
175 71.3 1954 Camilo Pascual-P

1978 (May 29)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
377 122.4 1955 Roberto Clemente-RF (1972)
256 92.4 1952 Hoyt Wilhelm-RP (2002)
219 86.5 1956 Bill Mazeroski-2B
253 71.6 1959 Maury Wills-SS

1979 (June 12)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
642 208.1 1951 Willie Mays-CF
293 85.0 1956 Luis Aparicio-SS
297 73.9 1960 Frank Howard-LF/RF
210 71.1 1958 Milt Pappas-P

In post #611 I wrote: We at the HoM should produce a list of players newly eligible for the 2007 election. We should include important data about each candidate, too.

I have done this. The complete lists of 37 position players and 23 pitchers are in an Excel file on the Yahoo site. The data was gleaned mostly from BB-Ref.

http://f1.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/oNTsQ98wapLDl_nsqUOVWLl9_M2KQY2KdzRY9PsUyas8mbw5U5qXM07vcDegTHCbPLRKSIdbHHkmzE75RMNEs84Nk62oKw/2007 newbies.xls
2007 BBWAA Newly Eligible

Just off the top of my head, looks like 9 no brainers in those 10 years

(Snider, Spahn, Roberts, Mantle, Matthews, Banks, Clemente, Wilhelm, Mays)

Another 5 or so who have a real good shot (Koufax, Ford, Bunning, Drysdale, Boyer)

And a few who may or may not have a backlogish shot (Pierce, Fox, Aparacio, Maz, Friend, Minoso)

Some may bicker with some of the placements, but with 21 election slots in these 10 years,
looks to me like a minimum of 5, and up to 7 or 8 backloggers are coming in during the 70s.

Overall, I think we would agree that they have done a very good job over the years with selections. Nearly every silly HOF member came via Veteran's Committee.

(Missed this the first time.)

Overall, I tend to agree, but...

HOM not HOF thru 1969 (writer's wing)
1939 Sisler
1948 Pennock
1948 Traynor
1953 Dean
1954 Maranville

Sisler will probably be a HOMer someday.

Diz, Pie, and the Rabbit get votes, and each has an argument (Dean:peak, Traynor:prime, Maranville:career); their election campaigns are on life-support, however.

Pennock? Good thing you said "nearly" ;-)

HOM not HOF thru 1969

Yeah, I know. I got it backwards. Shoot myself in the foot...

no brainer ... Wilhelm

The relief pitcher debate will begin in earnest.
To me there's a lot of Beckley about him.
No question about the career, but is there enough peak/prime?

Speaking as a peak/prime voter, Wilhelm is an NB. If all pitchers were in one bucket you could question his IP. But his effectiveness is off the charts and I like that, too, big IP or no.

Wilhelm no peak? With all due respect, that's cuckoo. He has 5 consecutive
seasons with an era+ over 170. Only Eck, Gossage, Wagner and Rivera can compare and
only Rivera significantly bests his peak.

If only one reliever could make the HoM, Hoyt would be he. Or Rivera.

I agree - Wilhelm had an insane peak - especially when you consider that ERA+ for ace relievers have been rising throughout history. In 2005 the median ERA+ for a closer/relief ace was aroun 150 IIRC. That wasn't the case in Wilhelm's day.

I admit it, computeristically I'm a groundling; the link in #618 is FUBAR.

This should be the link to the Yahoo group where my list of 2007 BBWAA newbies is posted

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HallofMerit/files/HoMer Grid.xls

Oops, wrong list. Try THIS

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HallofMerit/files/2007 newbies.xls

New Eligibles 1986-1990

Notes:
1) As in real life, 1989 stands out as an exceptional year for quality candidates.
2) Since we are no longer dealing with Negro leaguers or war credit, and due also to MLB expansion, I’ve slightly raised the threshold for listing candidates. Some players omitted in this period, who would’ve been listed under previous limits, are Billingham, Norman, Milner, Ra. Jones, G. Jackson, Bi. Robinson, Geronimo, Remy and Bibby.
3) Another addition that I should’ve done long ago, there is an asterisk by players who are eligible earlier than the BBWAA rules, due to ignoring token appearances at the end of their career.
4) It’s also possible I missed a death date or two; due to its increasing rarity I sometimes forget to check it.

1986 (October 2)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
408 101.2 1959 Willie McCovey-1B
233 53.2 1964 Willie Horton-LF
212 57.0 1965 Jose Cardenal-CF/RF
183 58.7 1965 Paul Blair-CF
165 55.3 1970 Dave Cash-2B
157 53.3 1969 Manny Sanguillen-C
146 55.9 1967 John Hiller-RP
141 42.7 1966 Bud Harrelson-SS
142 40.6 1965 Ken Henderson-CF/LF
147 31.7 1970 Ralph Garr-LF
114 46.5 1968 Marty Pattin-P
117 32.9 1970 Bernie Carbo-RF/LF
106 35.6 1973 JR Richard-P

1987 (October 16)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
302 88.1 1968 Bobby Bonds-RF (2003)
283 78.3 1967 Sal Bando-3B
178 68.1 1964 Rick Wise-P*
146 61.7 1967 Mike Marshall-RP
150 48.1 1968 Fred Patek-SS
146 47.3 1969 Larry Hisle-CF/LF*
143 44.3 1972 Bill North-CF
135 35.4 1969 Pat Kelly-RF (2005)
121 46.5 1969 Dick Drago-P
116 44.6 1969 Dave Roberts-P
118 42.2 1971 Rennie Stennett-2B

1988 (October 30)—elect 2
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
370 101.3 1963 Willie Stargell-LF/1B (2001)
325 86.4 1967 Reggie Smith-CF/RF
256 97.1 1964 Luis Tiant-P
277 71.9 1969 Bobby Murcer-RF/CF*
225 56.6 1967 Lee May-1B
161 58.9 1967 Sparky Lyle-RP
199 44.2 1970 John Mayberry-1B
162 55.2 1967 Mark Belanger-SS (1998)
173 43.0 1968 Joe Rudi-LF
130 48.8 1968 Stan Bahnsen-P
138 42.5 1968 Del Unser-CF
125 46.8 1969 Bill Lee-P
139 39.7 1974 Ron LeFlore-CF
141 34.3 1971 Willie Montanez-1B
110 41.6 1973 Doc Medich-P
120 31.2 1969 Jim Spencer-1B (2002)

1989 (November 13)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
488 140.1 1961 Carl Yastrzemski-LF/1B
369 136.3 1963 Gaylord Perry-P
356 128.0 1968 Johnny Bench-C
323 121.4 1966 Fergie Jenkins-P
268 102.3 1960 Jim Kaat-P
280 91.4 1964 Bert Campaneris-SS
231 73.9 1970 Gene Tenace-C/1B
197 62.7 1969 Don Money-3B
178 52.9 1973 Richie Zisk-RF/DH
156 57.9 1972 Jon Matlack-P
141 52.4 1965 Rudy May-P
137 52.2 1971 Ken Forsch-P*
134 49.5 1966 Woodie Fryman-P
131 50.5 1969 Steve Renko-P
123 50.1 1972 Jim Barr-P
130 43.0 1971 Joe Ferguson-C
132 39.0 1974 Bake McBride-RF/CF
115 43.2 1972 Dave Goltz-P
124 37.3 1967 Aurelio Rodriguez-3B (2000)

1990 (November 27)—elect 3
WS W3 Rookie Name-Pos (Died)
512 156.8 1965 Joe Morgan-2B
312 107.4 1965 Jim Palmer-P
302 86.5 1970 Ken Singleton-RF
286 82.6 1969 Amos Otis-CF
258 64.1 1967 Rick Monday-CF
247 59.3 1971 Greg Luzinski-LF
236 60.8 1968 Bob Watson-1B
181 61.0 1968 Ron Reed-RP
185 54.6 1971 Mickey Rivers-CF
159 56.1 1969 Mike Torrez-P
158 56.1 1965 Tug McGraw-RP (2004)
140 52.4 1971 Paul Splittorff-P
164 43.1 1969 Lou Piniella-LF
122 46.6 1972 Mike Caldwell-P
110 44.8 1968 Tom Burgmeier-RP
112 41.1 1971 Milt May-C
113 39.1 1972 Dick Tidrow-RP
116 37.2 1973 Bucky Dent-SS
122 34.5 1977 Gene Richards-LF

The trickle of backlog inductees we've been enjoying of late will become a deluge in the mid-1980s:

Double backlog election in 1984.
*Possible* triple backlog election in 1985 (depending on the evaulation of Brock)
McCovey + single backlog in 1986
Triple backlog election in 1987

Ignoring re-evalations and near ties, everyone in the top ten in 1983 will be inducted by 1987. That's an extremely quick turnover.

Triple backlog election in 1987

Maybe, but Sal Bando should get a verrrrrrrry long look from us before he gets dumped into the backlog. As a 3B, he's a wicked strong candidate. He's a better candidate at 3B than Bobby Bonds in the OF.

Other potentially controversial candidates in this period:
Mike Marshall (1987)
Reggie Smith and Luis Tiant (1988)
Jim Kaat and Gene Tenace (1989)
Ken Singleton (1990)

Fair enough on Bando (he looks a lot like Boyer, a wee bit better with the bat -- could come down to the glove).

And with the newly depleted backlog, we'll be looking at those guys a bit closer than we might think.

But everybody knows that Gene Tenace wasn't a very good offensive player!

Why that Tenace couldn't even keep his batting average over .250!

A question I've always wondered:

Ten-Ah-Chay?
or
Ten-ess?

I've just skimmed through this thread for the first time in a while, so pardon me if someone else has already mentioned this, but I noticed that Jim "Junior" Gilliam is listed as a NeL candidate eligible in 1971 and an MLB candidate in 1972. I think 1972 is correct (right?)...a minor clarification, I know, but it may be worth noting before next "year's" election.

Ten-Ah-Chay?
or
Ten-ess?

I had always heard the latter, but his birth certificate says "Fiore Gino Tennaci" which would imply either Tay-nah-chee or Tay-nah-see. (I'm not entirely familiar with the c/cc rules). Of course, he americanized the spelling and I've seen some americanized pronunciations that would make native speakers cringe.

No question about the career, but is there enough peak/prime?

Everybody's looking at the rate stats here.

Did he pitch enough high-leverage innings to translate those rates into high value?

He has 5 consecutive seasons with an era+ over 170.

Three of those 5 seasons (66-68) he's pitching a modern load of about 80-95 IP. But he only has 30 saves total for the 3 years. High-impact relievers get their value from pitching well in high-leverage innings. If he's not pitching those innings then we're in the McGraw/Chance/Joss situation; very nice rates but not enough total value contributed to the team.

Anyway this is a debate for another year.

I've just skimmed through this thread for the first time in a while, so pardon me if someone else has already mentioned this, but I noticed that Jim "Junior" Gilliam is listed as a NeL candidate eligible in 1971 and an MLB candidate in 1972. I think 1972 is correct (right?)...a minor clarification, I know, but it may be worth noting before next "year's" election.

The 1971 date is in error. That line for him in post #601 is copied from Chris Cobb's post #388, but it was copied to the wrong year. Gilliam is eligible in 1972, no question about it.

Saves do not directly and absolutely translate into leverage do they?

Saves do not directly and absolutely translate into leverage do they?

No, but I would imagine that they would be fairly close. There are "cheap" saves (the three run kind and the three-inning kind). OTOH, high leverage non-save situations would involve pitching in tie ball-games. I would think the latter would tend to result in an unusually high number of decisions for a reliever (eg Roy Face, 18-1 in 93IP in 1959), which would also indicate leverage.

We have retrosheet for the latter half of Wilhelm's career. He was quite old in 1966-68 (he had a few seasons left, but CHW didn't know that). His IP went down and the Sox did have a very deep and excellent bullpen each year.

Wilhelm does have some excellent pre-1966 seasons as well.
Anyhow, we can revisit this with some possible help from '(out of order)' when Wilhelm gets his own thread.

With nobody on base, tie ballgames and one-run leads would have the same leverage. (Similarly, one-run deficits and two-run leads.) However, with men on base, protecting a lead becomes higher leverage because the stakes are essentially doubled. In a tie-game, you can't blow more than half a game (assuming you're 50:50 to win). With a one-run lead, you can blow almost a whole game, turning a near-win into a loss. So Saves are usually higher leverage than relief Wins.