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Thursday, September 23, 2004

Oliver Marcelle

By popular demand, here’s a thread for the “spectral” third baseman…

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 23, 2004 at 03:21 AM | 11 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. Howie Menckel Posted: September 23, 2004 at 12:58 PM (#871312)
highlights from baseballlibrary.com..

"Marcelle was the finest-fielding third baseman in Negro League baseball during the 1920s. A Creole from New Orleans. Nearly complete statistics indicate that Marcelle batted .315 from 1919 to 1930. In 17 exhibition games against major league competition, Marcelle hit .365 (23-for-63).
"Marcelle was known for his uncontrollable temper. Marcelle reputedly once became so enraged that he struck Hall of Famer Oscar Charleston in the head with a bat.
"His temper may have led to his premature retirement. Bill Yancey, a teammate of Marcelle's, said that he and teammate Frank Warfield had a fight in Cuba and Warfield bit his nose off. "He was a proud, handsome guy, you know, and then he used to wear a black patch across his nose and he got so he couldn't play baseball anymore."

there's more in the link, including a comment from Judy Johnson..
   2. Chris Cobb Posted: September 23, 2004 at 01:13 PM (#871318)
Oliver Marcelle Data

Expert Assessments
Selected by 80% of experts polled in _Cool Papas_ for HoF
BJ -- #3 Third Baseman, behind Ray Dandridge and Judy Johnson
Holway -- #3 Third Baseman, behind Jud Wilson and Ray Dandridge; selected as all-star four times by Holway

From Riley

.305 lifetime Negro-League Average
1919, 1921-29 seasonal avgs. .229, .305, .364, .295, .343, .308, .255, .306, .296, .288
.305 lifetime Cuban Winter League average (8 seasons)

From Holway

Negro-League Data
1918 .111 for Bkn Royal Giants
1919 .462 (20-50) for Bkn Royal Giants; Holway all-star
1920 .323 for AC Bacharach Giants; Holway all-star
1921 .299 for AC Bacharach Giants; Holway all-star
6-15, .400 in playoff vs. Hilldale
1922 .265 for AC Bacharach Giants
6 –24, .250 in World Series vs. Chi Am Giants
1923, .306 for NY Lincoln Giants
1924 .316 for NY Lincoln Giants
1925 .321 for AC Bacharach Giants, .174 for NY Lincoln Giants
1926 .288 for AC Bacharach Giants
12-36 in World Series vs. Chi Am Giants
1927 .326 for AC Bacharach Giants; Holway all-star
8-34, .235 in World Series vs. Chi Am Giants
1928 .288 for AC Bacharach Giants
1929 .288 for Balt Black Sox
1930 .308 for Bkn Royal Giants

Career Data
.302, 723-2391

Cuban Data
1923 .393 to lead winter league
1924 .310 (39-126)
1925 .333 (26-78)
1927 .336 (40-119)
1929 .241 (38-158)

Vs. Major League Competition
1920 1-4 vs. Babe Ruth all-stars (Carl Mays and Ruth pitch)
1921 8-19 vs. Phil Athletics
1929 2-13 vs. All-Star squad (Phil A’s pitchers minus Grove plus Balt Orioles of IL)
career 11-36, .306

I9s Projections
5905 ab, 1639 hits, 296 2b, 107 3b, 40 hr, 631 bb, .277 ba, .347 obp, .384 slg, 731 ops
   3. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: September 23, 2004 at 01:45 PM (#871347)
Chris Cobb,

A short-form win shares analysis of Marcelle's i9s projections, assuming that he's an excellent 3B, come out around 210 career WS with the standard 5% reduction. Does this seem about right to you?

In terms of modern players, Marcell reminds me of Ken Oberkfell (97 OPS+: .278/.351/.362/713 OPS), particularly the early portion of KO's career.
   4. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 23, 2004 at 01:54 PM (#871354)
A short-form win shares analysis of Marcelle's i9s projections, assuming that he's an excellent 3B, come out around 210 career WS with the standard 5% reduction. Does this seem about right to you?

If that's the case, that doesn't seem like a HoMer to me (even when you factor in the attrition level for his position). Seems like he'll have to wait behind his contemporaries Groh and Traynor.
   5. Chris Cobb Posted: September 23, 2004 at 06:05 PM (#871864)
A short-form win shares analysis of Marcelle's i9s projections, assuming that he's an excellent 3B, come out around 210 career WS with the standard 5% reduction. Does this seem about right to you?

Yeah, about right. To get a quick estimate myself, I decided to see how many WS Marcell would earn if he were an exactly average hitter and a top (5.5 ws/1000 innings) fielder, using the i9s projected playing time, and I came up with 217 career win shares.

If he were as valuable a defensive third baseman as Jimmy Collins (which might not have been possible for a third baseman during the 1920s), his cws by this formula rise to 235.

If one were to take his i9s batting projections at face value and give him J. Collinsesque fielding value, he'd probably be very close to Bancroft (269 cws) and Sewell (277 cws), but no higher than that, and that's the highest possible projection I can see for him (unless the translation formula I'm using is _way_ off . . . )
   6. Howie Menckel Posted: September 23, 2004 at 06:07 PM (#871876)
Seeing Judy Johnson referenced makes this more relevant..

"Hall of Fame Negro League third baseman Judy Johnson admitted that Marcelle was better than he was defensively, although not offensively."
   7. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: September 27, 2004 at 10:50 PM (#881069)
It seems to me that Marcelle is better than Chacon and DeMoss and more in the Monroe territory among NeL infield contemporaries.

If this is true, then he may make my top 20 next year when he becomes eligible, but it is extremely doubtful he will ever be an HOMer.
   8. KJOK Posted: September 28, 2004 at 08:40 PM (#883145)
1928 Marcelle Stats:

G - 39
AB - 144
H - 40
2B-4
3B-2
HR-1
R-22
BB-8
SH-5
SB-1
Ave - .278 (Negro Leagues Ave .279)
OBP - .316 (Negro Leagues Ave .334)
SLG - .354 (Negro Leagues Ave .384)

Fielding 3B
G - 29
Innings - 233 2/3
Po-35
A-45
E-4
DP-1
Range Factor - 3.00 (Eastern League Ave 2.79)
PCT - .951 (Eastern League Ave .919)
   9. Gary A Posted: December 18, 2004 at 09:24 PM (#1029322)
1921 Oliver Marcelle
NNL associate Bacharach Giants

G-51 (team 52)
AB-203
H-66
D-9
T-1
HR-2
R-35
W-11
HP-1
SH-7
SB-6
AVE-.325 (NeL .263)
OBA-.363 (NeL .324)
SLG-.409 (NeL .361)
   10. KJOK Posted: September 17, 2011 at 07:02 AM (#3927862)
   11. KJOK Posted: September 17, 2011 at 08:41 PM (#3928228)
CORRECTED LINK:

Oliver Marcell's Real Stats

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