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1. Jorge Colon Delgado Posted: August 31, 2005 at 01:32 AM (#1586050)He's the only player to average .400+ in two positions, shortstop (1938) and first base (1940). And both times, it was against negro pitchers like Raymond Brown, Billy Byrd, Bertrum Hunter, Bud Barbee, Leon Day, Roy Partlow and Impo Barnhill, among others.
Coimbre batted .400+ twice: 1940 (.401) and 1945 (.425). In 1945, all pitchers were puertorricans, negro players didn't participate because of WWII.
Coimbre was great, but Perucho Cepeda was greater.
Francisco "Pancho" Coimbre was born in Coamo, Puerto Rico on January 29, 1909. He was 5'8" and weighed around 165 pounds during his playing days. Coimbre’s family moved to Ponce when he was 13 years old. He was an athlete in high school, competing in the 110 and 200 meter hurdles and the long jump. Coimbre got his first real taste of baseball at 15, when he was invited by “Millito” Navarro (who later went on to play professionally in PR and the negro leagues) to play with a team from Ponce against a team from San Juan in a doubleheader because the Ponce team was short one player. Pancho went 5 for 9 in the doubleheader. By 17 he was already concentrating on baseball.
Pancho’s professional career began in the Dominican Republic when he was 18. He went on to play for Magallanes in Venezuela, with Licey in the Dominican and in the Mexican championship, with the Caguas City team in Puerto Rico and several semi-pro tournaments. This encompasses the period between his professional debut and the creation of the Puerto Rico Professional Baseball League. However, there is not that much documentation for this period.
Negro Leagues YEAR TEAM AGE AVG ----------------- 1940 NYC 31 .320 1941* NYC 32 .353 1943 NYC 33 .438 1944 NYC 34 .357 1946** 36 ================= MEDIAN AVG .367 *Also 2 for 7 in the playoffs **Riley says he was with the NY Cubans in 1946, Holway lists no data. MEXICAN LEAGUE YEAR TM AGE AVG G AB H 2B 3B HR BB K SB ----------------------------------------------- 1945 PUE 35 .346 89 356 123 26 6 5 31 8 10 -EST LG AVG (NO PITCHERS) .292, SLG .408 -4TH IN TB -7TH IN H -8TH IN AVG PUERTO RICAN SUMMER AND WINTER LEAGUES YEAR LG AGE AVG AB H 2B ------------------------------- 1939 PRSL 30 18 1940 PRWL 30 .401 167 67 1941 PRWL 32 .372 17 1945 PRWL 35 .338 114 38 1944 PRWL 34 .425 106 45 1947 PRWL 37 .323 185 55 =============================== 572 205 35 -MEDIAN AVG .372 -AVG FOR AVAILABLE DATA .358This isn't a lot to go on, obviously. It's better than nothing, but it's not much. Just from this you can surmise he's probably a lot like Rod Carew as a hitter: extreme contact hitter, a little pop but mostly in the form of doubles, and a very high average. Tony Gwynn, might be another player who fits this mold. I'm not going to post any systematic translations until I can get my hands on more data (hopefully by end of week).
In addition, we're looking at Coimbre's post-peak and early decline phases. That he's hitting for this kind of average in his 30s suggests a lot about the kind of talent he had. I think it may also suggest he had a touch more speed than shows up in his numbers, assuming that fast players tend to age better than not-fast players.
Finally, in his single Mexican season he walked at about 56% the rate of the league, suggesting that he didn't walk much. However, he struck out about 60% less often than the league, so perhaps it's a bit of a wash given the height of his average.
Were those NeL averages based on full seasons? Were any of them just a couple dozen ABs?
He looks like he could be better than Oms, about whom there is a fair consensus. Wouldn't compare him to Bell since it would depend on whether you have Bell in your top 5 or #50. I think you understate his power a bit. 37 of 123 H are for XB in Mexico in 1945 (age 35), SA .494 versus league .408.
By the way, funny that Coimbre and Cepeda have the same initials.
(I asked the same question on the Cepeda thread!)
; )
I think that the playing time is probably too shallow, I pegged him at around 82% of scheduled games based on trends I saw coming out of his record, but not on anything really tangible.
Then again, with NO NgL xBH data on him, I essentially had to create his TBs from whole cloth, depending on a small sample that included his MxL and a couple PRWL seasons for xBH rates.
The averages should be solid, but playing time will effect the totals line. FWS based on average outfielder.
Anyway, I want to emphasize that I worked this up just to get the a baseline for Pancho, and that's exactly how it should be taken, unless we suddenly come upon better, more detailed information. I think he could be somewhat better than this, but I don't think he'd be much worse. That's just one moderately informed guy's opinion.
OK, that said, I don't think it would be unreasonable for someone to mentally project a whole career for him because, as Jorge Delgado above says, Coimbre was playing in many leagues around the Carribean throughout his 20s.
6550 PAs/325/.368/.431/121
Not quite ballot worthy. Nice BA, nice not great OBA, a little weak in the SA department.
Can anybody provide any data from the 1930s? Right now I don't see enough to make my ballot. I have him #15-20 right now and he could move down with this. Not a lot, though, comparable to Oms (#30 on my ballot).
Negro Leagues (from the 8th ed. Baseball Encyclopedia)
YEAR TEAM AGE AVG GP AB H 2B 3B HR
-------------------------------------
1940 NYC 31 .331 28 124 41 2 0 2
1941 NYC 32 .360 30 111 40 5 2 4
1942 NYC 33 .438 34 137 60 11 0 2
1943 NYC 34 .275 22 80 22 3 0 1
The book lists a 1944 batting average of .390. The Negro Leagues Book lists him on the roster of the NY Cubans for 1945 and 1946.
PUERTO RICAN WINTER LEAGUE
Year Team Age AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI BB SO SB Avg
1938-39 Ponce 29 165 22 48 13 2 1 -- -- -- -- .291
1939-40 Ponce 30 219 39 65 18 2 2 41 -- 0 8 .296
1940-41 Ponce 31 167 40 67 11 2 3 31 -- 0 0 .401
1941-42 Ponce 32 164 46 61 17 2 5 34 -- 0 0 .372
1942-43 Ponce 33 114 19 39 9 1 1 18 23 2 10 .342
1943-44 Ponce 34 157 41 59 12 1 1 27 -- 1 -- .376
1944-45 Ponce 35 106 19 45 5 1 1 17 9 1 -- .425
1945-46 Ponce 36 114 28 38 12 2 2 28 21 2 10 .333
1946-47 Ponce 37 189 26 63 10 1 1 33 37 5 -- .333
1947-48 Ponce 38 155 32 50 9 4 4 33 23 4 -- .323
1948-49 Ponce 39 239 45 80 12 3 3 43 58 1 5 .333
1949-50 Ponce 40 107 12 26 7 0 0 15 13 4 -- .243
1950-51 Ponce 41 19 1 5 0 0 0 2 3 0 -- .263
Totals 1915 370 646 135 17 24 322 187 20 33 .337
I figure his PRWL SA at .463.
His NL record in the four seasons listed is 163 H in 452 AB (.361 and then there's the .390 for 1944) with 32 SXBH and a SA of .476.
His seasonal results seem solid. But how long did he play? What was he doing prior to age 30?
Esteban Rivera outlines Coimbre's activities pre-PRWL in post #2, and they suggest that he was playing professionally in Latin-American leagues.
Reposting what Esteban wrote:
Pancho’s professional career began in the Dominican Republic when he was 18. He went on to play for Magallanes in Venezuela, with Licey in the Dominican and in the Mexican championship, with the Caguas City team in Puerto Rico and several semi-pro tournaments. This encompasses the period between his professional debut and the creation of the Puerto Rico Professional Baseball League. However, there is not that much documentation for this period.
The main revelation in those numbers is Coimbre's walk rate, which in the PRWL is much higher than it was in Mexico, and higher again than the NL averages of the time. To be conservative, I've simply pegged his walk rate to the NL average.
Playing time is prorated in the usual manner from his games played divided by the team games or scheduled games.
My main curiousity is why his age 29 and 30 numbers come out so low (aka 1938-1939, the first two years of the PRWL). I wonder if there is some kind of contextual explanation for this, or if this is an adjustment period for Coimbre or what?
The complicating factor, then, is whether his peak was in the usual age 26-27 range (or earlier since he turned pro young) or whether he peaked in his early 30s.
By the way if anyone (Esteban???) has leaguewide batting totals for any PRWL seasons, please share them!!!!
Coimbre was from Ponce and there is actually a small Pancho Coimbre meuseum there. On one of the displays was his first contract with Ponce. If I remember right, Coimbre was paid 5 bucks a week for the 1938-39 season.
Perhaps the saddest thing about Coimbre is how he passed away. His house caught fire and he was trapped inside and burned to death.
When you travel to Puerto Rico, one of the first things you notice is the bars over the windows of private homes. In Coimbre's case, those bars on his windows kept him from getting out.
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