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— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Wednesday, December 27, 2006

Reggie Jackson

Eligible in 1993.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2006 at 03:58 AM | 59 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 27, 2006 at 04:03 AM (#2269123)
His HOF plaque is my pick for the worst at Cooperstown. He looks like Tom House if he were a chipmunk.

The best would be King Kelly's, BTW.
   2. sunnyday2 Posted: December 27, 2006 at 05:24 AM (#2269176)
People always loved to say that Reggie is no Yaz because, of course, his BA is not good enough. Well, Reggie's road BA is better than Yaz.'

Win Shares

Reggie 444/41-33-32-31-30-27-27-26-25-23-23-22-18-18-13-10-10 (12 yrs?20, 17 yrs? 10)
Yaz 488/42-39-36-29-26-24-24-24-21-21-21-21-20-20-19-19-18-13-13-12-10 (14 yrs?20, 21 yrs? 10)

Yaz wins years 1-3, Reggie wins the next 9, Yaz wins out the rest of the way. Yaz' 3 year peak and career edges out-weigh Reggie's prime advantage, I think. But it is hardly a rout.

OPS+

Reggie 140/190-72-71-65-58-52-51-51-45-38-38-36-30-29-16 (15 yrs?100 in ?100 games)
Yaz 128/189-74-68-54-45-39-38-34-24-22-18-18-18-18-15-12-11-10-10-8-3 (21 yrs)

Reggie wins 14 out of the first 15 years, then of course Yaz wins his final 6 years. This one is not close. Obviously Yaz had better in-season durability, which is not nothing.

Pete Rose has 17 years ?100 OPS+ in ?100 games, versus Reggie's 15, and their OPS+ values are not close, as you might imagine. 140 to 117 for career, 171-139 for 3rd best, 158-135 for 5th best, 138-124 for 10th best.

On WS, Reggie leads 106-103 for 3 years and 167-166 for 5, but Rose leads 307-295 for 10 years. At their absolute peaks, Reggie leads 41-37 but it evens out in a hurry. This Rose fella wasn't bad. Not sure Reggie beats him out. I don't like that I have to pick between them in '93.
   3. JPWF13 Posted: December 27, 2006 at 09:09 PM (#2269550)
Jackson away (per BBref): .268 .362 .499
Yaz away: .264 .357 .422

I think BBref's splits are incomplete, and
H/R splits over 1-2 seasons are almost meaningless, but...

Over careers of the length of these two? I think it's pretty inescapable that Reggie was a better offensive player.

Reggie played at just about the worst possible time (post 1920), and parks for a player of his type and was still a no questions asked (ok the dumber mediots asked questions) HOFer- what numbers would he have put up in a typical park in the 1990-2006 era?
   4. Willie Mays Hayes Posted: December 27, 2006 at 09:19 PM (#2269563)
Neutralized Career
G    AB    R    H      2B  3B   HR  RBI   BB   SO   SB   Avg   OBP   SLG   OPS   RC ActG
2875 10361 1872 2930  526  54  635 2056 1552 2645  259  .283  .380  .528  .908 2078 2820

.
.
.
Career played in Coors
G    AB    R    H      2B  3B   HR  RBI   BB   SO   SB   Avg   OBP   SLG   OPS   RC ActG
2875 11073 2645 3642  654  69  788 2908 1928 2645  320  .329  .432  .614 1.046 2939 2820
   5. Howie Menckel Posted: December 27, 2006 at 09:47 PM (#2269599)
Reggie in 11 LCSs - .227/.298/.380, with 6 HR, 20 RBI in 163 AB - or 18 HR, 61 RBI per 500 AB pace.
5 for 33 without a HR in the 1973-74 ALCSs.

He did get the occasional World Series hit, though :)
   6. OCF Posted: December 27, 2006 at 09:48 PM (#2269600)
Yastrzemski seems to me to be a useful comparison point, for different reasons, for both Rose and Jackson. Here's my offense-only comparison:

Jackson 92 67 64 64 52 52 49 42 40 40 38 35 33 22 18 17  6 ---6-13
Yaz     96 82 80 48 41 36 34 33 28 24 21 20 20 19 17 16 11  9  7  7  3  0 
-6
Rose    72 60 58 58 53 48 46 40 36 35 34 32 29 28 22 21 13 10  5  3  2 
--8-16 


Considerations: Jackson played in a DH league; I've applied a mostly 3% correction to the park factors to account for that. (Also to Yaz, where appropriate). This may be overstating Rose a little because of his leadoff-hitter playing time advantage, although the method isn't that sensitive to playing time and is charging him for all the outs. Jackson has a clear, but not huge, advantage on Rose on offense - note that this puts Jackson ahead on 12 of the top 13 years. (Rose did outlast him a little.) Rose has an advantage on Jackson on defense.

Jackson hit .278/.358/.527 in 77 postseason games, including .357/.457/.755 in 27 WS games. Rose was also good in the postseason: .321/.388/.440 in 67 games, in his case better in LCS than in WS. And Yaz was brilliant, albeit in just 17 games: .369/.447/.600.

For my own ballot, I think I'll have Carlton and Niekro in the 1-2 spots; still thinking about which order to put Rose and Jackson in.
   7. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 28, 2006 at 05:03 PM (#2269992)
Is Reggie's 3-HR series game the most famous multi-homer game in baseball history, among games that are famous for having multiple homers by the same player? (In other words, all of the homers are famous precisely for occuring in the same game).
   8. KJOK Posted: December 28, 2006 at 05:53 PM (#2270051)
I think Ruth's 3 HR's in 1928 Game 4 was pretty famous, given that IIRC 3 HR's had never been hit in a World Series game until then.
   9. DavidFoss Posted: December 28, 2006 at 05:58 PM (#2270055)
Is Reggie's 3-HR series game the most famous multi-homer game in baseball history, among games that are famous for having multiple homers by the same player? (In other words, all of the homers are famous precisely for occuring in the same game).

Hmmm... Ruth hit two homers in the "called-shot" game, but since most people don't know that there were two homers in the game it doesn't really qualify.

Its probably Reggie's clinching performance in Game 6, but there have been a few other games. Yogi notably teed off on Newcombe twice in game 7 of the 1956 series. Schmidt & Kingman both hit multiple homers in that wild 23-22 game in Wrigley. Ok... maybe that's all I have right now.
   10. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: December 28, 2006 at 09:10 PM (#2270281)
Ryne Sandberg hit 2 game tying HRs off Bruce Sutter once.
   11. BDC Posted: December 28, 2006 at 10:36 PM (#2270357)
Fernando Tatis would make the short list.
   12. OCF Posted: December 28, 2006 at 10:57 PM (#2270382)
Schmidt & Kingman both hit multiple homers in that wild 23-22 game in Wrigley.

There was that other wild game in Wrigley, 4/17/76. Schmidt (who was batting 6th in the order!) had this line:

2nd inning - out.

4th inning (Phillies behind 12-1) - leadoff single; erased on force but the baserunner representing him scored to make it 12-2.

5th inning (2 out, Phillies behind 13-2) - 2-run HR to make it 13-4.

7th inning (1 out, Phillies behind 13-6) - solo HR to make it 13-7.

8th inning (2 out, Phillies behind 13-9) - 3-run HR to make it 13-12.

10th inning (none out, runner on first, game tied 15-15) - 2-run HR to make it 17-15 Phillies.

The Phillies won the game 18-16. Would you have thrown Schmidt a pitch he could reach in the 10th inning?
   13. DavidFoss Posted: December 29, 2006 at 12:35 AM (#2270484)
There was that other wild game in Wrigley, 4/17/76.

Yipes! Staying with the 1993 theme, this is not exactly Steve Carlton's finest start.
   14. OCF Posted: December 29, 2006 at 01:22 AM (#2270519)
Yipes! Staying with the 1993 theme, this is not exactly Steve Carlton's finest start.

Not the only time Carlton has been spared a loss by an improbable comeback after he'd left the game. Check out June 9, 1968, first game. (Of course, Red Schoendienst had to go and use Carlton in relief in the second game.)
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: December 29, 2006 at 01:43 AM (#2270535)
Tony Cloninger says hi.
   16. AndrewJ Posted: December 29, 2006 at 02:07 AM (#2270542)
His HOF plaque is my pick for the worst at Cooperstown.

My choice for that honor is Mickey Mantle -- his HOF plaque looks exactly like Gerald Ford. Coincidentally, Mantle's induction took place the Monday following Ford's inauguration...
   17. sunnyday2 Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:15 AM (#2270639)
James has Reggie as the #7 RF of all-time (Gwynn #6). This of course was a few years ago--Sosa was #45, Jaun Gone #52, Larry Walker #55, Tim Salmon #72. You'd have to think they've all moved up.

1. Ruth
2. Aaron
3. F. Robinson
4. Ott--these seem like the right 4 guys though one could quibble about the correct order of #3-4

5. Rose--I don't have him as a RF

6. Gwynn
7. Reggie--I have to say I don't get Gwynn over Reggie at all

8. Clemente
9. Waner
10. Crawford--I think these 3 are exactly backwards, the timeline is just trumping everything else here

11. Kaline
12. Slaughter
13. Winfield
14. Parker
15. Bo. Bonds
16. Heilmann--again, too much timeline for my taste
17. Murcer
18. Singleton
19. Dawson
20. R. Smith

Jackson's best season, 41 WS, is exceeded by exactly ONE, count 'em, one player's best season. He ties Aaron and F. Robby at #2. His second best, 32 WS, is "only" #12 and his third best, 32, is #5. Jackson is 41-32-32, Clemente is 35-30-29.
   18. yest Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:38 AM (#2270657)
these ones are pretty bad <url=http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/waner_paul.htm>P. Waner</url>, <url=http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/goslin_goose.htm>G. Goslin</url>, and <url=http://www.baseballhalloffame.org/hofers_and_honorees/plaques/sisler_george.htm>G. Sisler</url>
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:01 AM (#2270671)
Reggie is glad that his repeated failures in ALCS play may not be held against him. He reasons that small sample sizes are not a reason for or against inclusion in the HOM.
   20. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:10 AM (#2270688)
Reggie Jackson was making a promotional appearance at a New York candy store in 1978. I told my friend to grab the back of my jacket, and I wormed our way through the crowd outside. My friend was a bit husky, as well as a Yankee hater, and that will be important later in the anecdote. The store is admitting people two by two, and we get an audience with #44. Inside, there was a video camera recording this unhistoric moment. After a nanosecond's small talk about the Yankees, Reggie Jackson starts quizzing us about the flavorful chocolatey delight of the Reggie Bar, now available in retail stores everywhere. I told him that I'd been at the Opening Day game where he hit a HR and the fans peppered the field with their promotional giveaway candy bars. He asked me if I threw mine, and I said, "It was too late; I'd already eaten it." Then he turns to my friend (husky, Yankee-hater), and asks him what he thinks about the Reggie Bar. My friend says to Reggie's face, "They don't taste very good." Without missing a beat, Reggie says, word for word, "You don't look like you're too particular about what you eat." This concluded our meeting with Reginald Martinez Jackson. 28 years later, I'd love to see the video.

I trust that this story is certain to tip the HoM election. In which direction, who knows?
   21. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 29, 2006 at 06:45 AM (#2270709)
That's a riot Gonfalon - I consider that story a positive for Reggie :-)
   22. ronw Posted: December 29, 2006 at 04:43 PM (#2270862)
Worst plaque may also be the worst HOFer:

<a >Tommy McCarthy</a>

They used a picture of him as a coach with Brooklyn, instead of something from his playing days. He looks like death warmed over.
   23. DavidFoss Posted: December 29, 2006 at 05:29 PM (#2270876)
They used a picture of him as a coach with Brooklyn, instead of something from his playing days. He looks like death warmed over.

:-) The text isn't much better. "Pioneer in trapping fly balls"? When did "trapping" the ball come to mean "dropping it but making it sorta look like you might have caught it"? :-)

Whoa, there are a lot of ugly plaques. Looks like bronze is not the best medium for preserving someone's likeness. Half the guys look like Han Solo frozen in carbonite. Tony Perez looks positively shocked! Some of the other plaques are notably an older facial likeness while sporting a cap they wore when they were much younger (Seaver, Fisk, Perry). Reggie's is indeed pretty bad. The giant open mouth, the dated eyewear and the bushy air (see also murray, sutton, eckersley). I think bronze is better for shorter hair.
   24. Howie Menckel Posted: December 30, 2006 at 04:36 PM (#2271377)
OPS+ as regular, 100 or better
Reggie 190-72-71-65-58-52-51-51-45-38-38-36-30-29-16
PeRose 158-52-41-38-34-32-30-29-28-27-27-21-19-19-18-16-15-01

Even with positional and durability tweaks, it's still a pretty good blowout with double-digit edge right thru to year 14.
As noted above, Reggie vs Yaz would be the more interesting comparison.

I likely will have Rose 4th, and Carlton just ahead of Niekro. Not sure if Reggie is 1st, 2nd, or 3rd, though. Feel free to lobby me to put Reggie at any of those 3 spots.

I find it interesting that Rose's last half-dozen years help him with some voters (counting stats) and hurt him with others (rate stats). I find them to be utterly irrelevant to his case, no help and no hurt.
   25. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 30, 2006 at 04:44 PM (#2271379)
I got Reggie's autograph when I went to the Mets/Yankees world series in 2000.
   26. sunnyday2 Posted: December 30, 2006 at 05:04 PM (#2271383)
Maybe it's me. I saw Reggie Jackson. And of course, I'm a bit of a peak voter. And I saw Reggie Jackson play. But it's not like I'm an A's or Yankees fan, and in fact I was never much of a Reggie fan. I was more of a Thurman Munson fan. Thurman was the guy who stirred the drink, if you're talkin' about winning games on the field. If you're talking getting your name in the headlines, well, yeah, Reggie stirred that drink.

But, seriously, I saw Reggie play. Every bit as good as Yaz, maybe better. Not a long, sure. He'll be #1 on my ballot. Yes, it's very very close between him and Pete. And, wow, is Niekro ever a better candidate than I thought. And everybody knows about Lefty. There was only one 1972, but for a peak voter, that was one hell of a year.

Great great class, especially with Pete slipping back. It would be a killer group with Grich (1. Reggie, 2. Carlton, 3. Niekro, 4. Grich). But as it is, it's 1. Reggie, 2. Pete, 3. Lefty, 4. Knucksie. I saw Reggie play. Larger than life. No mere rich man's Jim Rice. Awesome. The Mark McGwire of his day, for whatever that's worth (I'll have McGwire #2 on my 2007 HoF ballot, behind Ripken but ahead of Gwynn. I like seeing the ball disappear over the fence.) I am pretty sure Reggie will be elected, and #4 on this ballot is no disgrace--not for any of these 4 guys, and all of them will get their share of #4s--it's just that so far I'm seeing Reggie getting more than his share. You underestimate the player. In the early '70s it was Rodney and Reggie--Reggie and Rodney--in the AL. #1 or maybe #2 in the AL for a whole decade is where I see him. Carlton and Niekro weren't even the #2 pitcher in the NL.
   27. Paul Wendt Posted: December 30, 2006 at 06:00 PM (#2271395)
I saw Reggie play. Larger than life. No mere rich man's Jim Rice. Awesome. The Mark McGwire of his day, for whatever that's worth

In his youth, Reggie was also fast and athletic --more like the youthful Babe Ruth than Mark McGwire, I believe.
   28. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 30, 2006 at 10:47 PM (#2271489)
Howie - I think the fielding position has to come into account with Rose/Reggie - if some of those high end Rose years were while playing 2B (I haven't looked) that could make a difference.

I think they are very close.
   29. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: December 30, 2006 at 10:49 PM (#2271490)
Wasn't Reggie a helluva a RB at Arizona St. too . . . man is it cool when an insanely talented athlete (like Reggie or Elway or Winfield) works his ass off and puts it all together for a Hall of Fame type career instead of just getting by as a 'minor star' on talent alone.
   30. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 01, 2007 at 09:35 PM (#2272115)
Wasn't Reggie a helluva a RB at Arizona St. too

Reggie was a running back in high school, but played safety for Arizona State.
   31. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 01, 2007 at 09:57 PM (#2272123)
In his youth, Reggie was also fast and athletic --more like the youthful Babe Ruth than Mark McGwire, I believe.

I agree, Paul, though his body shape resembled Big Mac's from the late Eighties more than the young George Herman's.
   32. Mark Donelson Posted: January 04, 2007 at 11:43 PM (#2274317)
Carlton and Niekro weren't even the #2 pitcher in the NL.

They weren't? Who was?

I guess you could say Perry or Jenkins, but Carlton and Niekro at least have an argument. Seems to me they all kind of alternated, really, as #2 after Seaver.
   33. Catfish326 Posted: January 08, 2007 at 05:53 PM (#2276340)
I saw Reggie play at the end of his career with the A's (1987, his last year). Even then, as the raw talent was waning, boy, could he get the crowd excited. Everyone wanted the great Reggie's attention. People shouting stuff to him at every opportunity. That hulking jog towards the dugout, screamed that this guy was all athlete, and did he ever bring excitement to the ballpark.
   34. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2007 at 06:12 PM (#2276354)
I saw Reggie's entire career, and he was ALWAYS entertaining. If he wasn't hitting a titanic blast he was throwing the ball over Bando's head trying to get the runner at third. Jackson had a strong arm and loved to show it off. Alas, his accuracy left something to be desired.

I didn't think it was a matter of dispute that Reggie was a more productive hitter then Yaz. Just seemed pretty obvious.

One thing about both guys is that they were dedicated to the game. 37 years old and Yaz cranks out a .505 slugging percentage while playing 140 games in the outfield with 16 assists and NO errors. And this was no "Cal Ripken Jr." bullsh*t where the hometown guys always gave Yaz a pass.

Meanwhile, the Angels kept sticking Reggie at DH and the one season where he got to play in the outfield semi-regularly at age 39 Jackson has his last good season. I know he spoke about it and the numbers (if I recall) backed him up, Reggie HATED being a DH. His output was not the same as when he was also in the field.

Like McCovey, put Reggie in 90's baseball and he cranks out some seasons that would make Albert Belle look like a Little Leaguer.
   35. Catfish326 Posted: January 08, 2007 at 06:47 PM (#2276376)
I agree Wallbangers. Reggie in today's game would be amazing. Picture him in his prime, in say Colorado field, in 2007. 80 dingers baby. I don't blame Reggie for getting pissed recently, because the steroid era has really deflated the value of the homerun from days past. Reggie earned every one of his dingers. I wish Aaron would come out and publicly slam Bonds, McGwire, etc.
   36. JC in DC Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:04 PM (#2276383)
Is my memory wrong, or was the Reggie Bar basically like a large "Turtle" candy: chocolate, caramel, and nuts of some kind? I thought it was ok.
   37. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:13 PM (#2276386)
JC:

Correct. And according to Catfish Hunter when you opened the wrapper it told you how good it is. Ha!

Some of the very best lines in baseball lore either came from Reggie or were about Reggie. Just a fun, fun player.
   38. Dizzypaco Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:19 PM (#2276388)
More memorably quotes about Jackson, I believe from Mickey Rivers:

(After hearing Jackson claim that he had an IQ of 150 or something like that): Out of what? 1,000?

Reginald Martinez Jackson: He's got a White man's first name, a Hispanic man's middle name, and a Black man's last name. No wonder he's so screwed up.
   39. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:23 PM (#2276391)
I'd keep him out just for trying to assassinate the Queen of England. Even Mark McGwire didn't do that. Sure he was brainwashed, but its still a blemish on his record. At the very least, he should have an asterisk by his home run tally.
   40. Catfish326 Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:26 PM (#2276393)
That is a great Hunter line. Too funny.

Reading one of the Steinbrenner bio's there was a scene described where Reggie was crying at a bar he was at with other Yankees players. They were trying to console him. Reggie thought that if he had been blessed with the good looks of some player for the royals, Jamie Quirk I think, then he would really get what he deserved from the media, and on advertising/promotional deals. Crying over Quirk's good looks? Would you rather play like Reggie, or look like Quirk???
   41. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:26 PM (#2276394)
I saw Reggie's entire career, and he was ALWAYS entertaining.

One of my favorite stories was that somebody from Topps came by to take Reggie's picture for his baseball card during the game. Supposedly Reggie grounded out three times but every time he did, he looked up like he hit a home run.
   42. OCF Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:27 PM (#2276396)
I don't blame Reggie for getting pissed recently, because the steroid era has really deflated the value of the homerun from days past. Reggie earned every one of his dingers.

See post #61 on the 1993 discussion thread - I wouldn't want to go too far out on a limb about being sure that Jackson was "clean." Of course if the point is that Reggie would have hit more HR under late-90's circumstances, then yes, he would have.
   43. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:43 PM (#2276407)
See post #61 on the 1993 discussion thread - I wouldn't want to go too far out on a limb about being sure that Jackson was "clean." Of course if the point is that Reggie would have hit more HR under late-90's circumstances, then yes, he would have.

I saw Reggie play often in 1987 when he came back to the A's, and even then, I sort of suspected he might be on something. He was just huge and very muscular. Obviously, it didn't translate into performance, but he looked like a pro wrestler. He also owned a Gold's gym near my hometown. I know these are tenuous scraps of evidence, but Reggie isn't suspicion free in my book, at least not regarding his late career. The big unanswered question about steroids are when did they really start? I don't believe for a second Canseco was the first. I don't mean to sound moralistic about this--I'm not sure what I think about the issue yet, to be honest--but I am skeptical of the mythical pre-1986 world of steroids free baseball, though.

All right, back to lurking. Love the discussions and work you guys do over here!
   44. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 08, 2007 at 07:58 PM (#2276419)
There is a very famous photo from 1969 with Reggie cradling a bat. Obvious "beefcake" shot. Guy looked pretty muscular then. Jackson was regularly referred to as "one of the best athletes in the game" throughout the 70's. One of the reasons Billy Martin had such issue with Jackson's defense being sub-par (in Billy's estimation) was that Jackson was fast with the best arm on the team. Martin figured a guy with Jackson's gifts should be capable of doing more in the field.

But based on recent comments here and elsewhere, I presume then that it is accepted behavior to cast aspersions on a man's career based on innuendo, conjecture, and whatever monkeys one pulls out of one's *ss?
   45. Catfish326 Posted: January 08, 2007 at 08:08 PM (#2276426)
I agree. There does seem to be a lot of fallacious theories thrown around on this site concerning activities of pre-1990s players. All a bunch of hokus pokus if you ask me. Is it coming mostly from the minority that, for whatever reason, are still in love with Bonds, Mcgwire, etc.? The Winfields, and Jacksons were just simply damn good athletes. One could find cracked-up "evidence" that supports an ill-advised theory that Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Aaron, and Mays were "juicing" on certain enhancement products.
   46. DL from MN Posted: January 08, 2007 at 08:32 PM (#2276441)
<cough> Brian Downing <\cough>

People were juicing in the NFL in the 1970s and in the Olympics during the 1960s, why wouldn't it have entered baseball before 1986?
   47. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 08, 2007 at 08:53 PM (#2276455)
<cough> Brian Downing <\cough>

I do remember whispers about him using steroids way before Canseco ever became a professional. Of course, that's just hearsay.
   48. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: January 08, 2007 at 08:54 PM (#2276457)
But based on recent comments here and elsewhere, I presume then that it is accepted behavior to cast aspersions on a man's career based on innuendo, conjecture, and whatever monkeys one pulls out of one's *ss?

Well, sure. I agree with this actually, but Gold's Gyms at the time were well known for their steroids users. I knew a couple personally. Honestly, I can't recall if they went to Reggie's Gold's Gym or not and even if they did, it doesn't tie Reggie to them or to steroid use. The point I'm really trying to make is that the problem is most likely older than we think it is. I really doubt MLB players had some kind of revelation in 1986 that these things might help their performance. I wish that were true, but, more and more, I doubt it. (And yeah, you're right that it's unfair of me to cast these suspicions on Reggie. If I could go back I probably wouldn't have posted.)
   49. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: January 08, 2007 at 09:06 PM (#2276460)
You know, the more I think about it, the stupider my post gets. Just ignore it. I'll make myself run an extra mile tonight as punishment.
   50. Chris Cobb Posted: January 08, 2007 at 09:08 PM (#2276461)
Top 5 seasons by OPS+

Reggie Jackson: 187, 172, 166, 161, 155
Albert Belle: 192, 178, 171, 157, 145

Their performance relative to their league suggests that Jackson's best was not very different from Belle's. Jackson, however, has five more years above a 140 OPS+, while Belle has none. Reggie was a top power hitter for a long time, Belle for only a little while.

Seasons with 150+ adj. (for strikes) games played

Reggie Jackson: 6
Albert Belle: 8

The main reason that I doubt that Reggie would have put up seasonal counting stats that were better than Belle's is not that I think Reggie wasn't as good a hitter as Bad Albert, but because Albert was in the lineup _every_ day and Reggie wasn't.

I don't mean to run down Reggie. He was one of the best players in the game for a decade plus. He was a first-ballot HoMer, and we should elect him near-unanimously to the HoM when we vote. But that he would have made Albert Belle look like a little-leaguer if he had played in the 1990s? I'm doubtful.
   51. Boogie Nights Powell Posted: January 09, 2007 at 07:24 AM (#2276693)
My favorite Catfish quote about Reggie:

"Reggie would give you the shirt off his back. Of course, he'd have to call a press conference to announce it."
   52. rawagman Posted: January 12, 2007 at 04:04 PM (#2279341)
Re: post 35- If Roger Kahn is to be believed, Reggie Jackson loved batting cleanup and hated playing as the DH. I am currently reading October Men and it provides a very colourful picture of Reggie Jackson as a human being. Billy Martin, George Steinbrenner, Goose Gossage, Sparky Lyle, etc... as well. I think what drove Reggie was his pictured sense of self.
   53. DavidFoss Posted: January 12, 2007 at 06:01 PM (#2279473)
It seems like lots of guys "hate playing DH", but when you have an aging veteran on an AL roster, its often the most logical place to put them (even if the player could techinically play still play in the field if they wanted to).

Twins fans can recall cases in the past two seasons where Shannon Stewart or Rondell White was put in LF while some backup CF like Jason Tyner or Lew Ford was put at DH because the veteran didn't like being a DH. I seem to recall some similar issues with Jason Giambi in recent years with the Yankees.

I understand the point of bringing up the "hated to play DH and hit better when playing in the field argument" is meant to boost a guy like Reggie Jackson so that we aren't tempted to penalize him for his DH time when comparing him to the other corner greats of the day... But from a pure roster construction standpoint, it makes sense that after you decide on a 1B/DH or LF/DH pair that you should put your best glove in the field.
   54. sunnyday2 Posted: January 12, 2007 at 07:33 PM (#2279548)
I guess Rondell White hit about 50 points or maybe even 75 points higher when playing LF than when playing DH. So indeed they put him out there. And hope like hell he doesn't humiliate himself and cost his team too many runs, which doesn't always work out.

I would have to ask 1) whether we're talking about too small of a sample and 2) whether the manager should really give a #### if Rondell White doesn't like to DH.
   55. Shooty Is Disappointed With His Midstream Urine Posted: January 12, 2007 at 07:46 PM (#2279557)
I would have to ask 1) whether we're talking about too small of a sample and 2) whether the manager should really give a #### if Rondell White doesn't like to DH.

This really cost the Giants in the WS when Dusty let Lofton play CF instead of the much better Shinjo because Kenny "didn't feel right" if he had to DH. Boo, Dusty. Boo!
   56. _ Posted: January 12, 2007 at 08:09 PM (#2279587)
The bit about McCarthy trapping the ball is somewhat misleading. What he really did was pretend to be ready to catch a flyball, then let it drop at the last instant and throw the lead runner out. He'd disguise it so the runner couldn't be sure whether he caught it or not. Of course, I don't know how he wouldn't simultaneouly fool the umpire as well. . . I think he had as many as 60 assists from the OF in some years. He's also said to have invented the hit-and-run.
   57. rawagman Posted: January 13, 2007 at 02:26 PM (#2280014)
Speaking from personal experience for a moment: As a slap-hitting left fielder who frequently misjudges flyballs, but has a pretty quick release back to the infield (if I must say so myself) and a fairly accurate throw, I hate playing DH.
It's quite difficult to sit in an exposed dugout huddling against the breeze for 45-75 minutes, then suddely have to get up, take a few practice cuts and face some live pitching.
I am able to hit much better if I'm in the outfield. Even if the other team never gets the ball out of the infield, I am much more focused.
   58. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 13, 2007 at 04:03 PM (#2280056)
Regarding my earlier Jackson to Belle comment:

I was thinking in terms of how the 90's environment favored a hitter like Jackson. Power hitter, took his share of walks, and typical platoon advantage. In the American League of the 90's these traits would have been accentuated with the ballparks, smaller strike zone, and limited quality lefty starter pitching.

I believe given these conditions Jackson would have had even BETTER years then what we would see given standard techniques that adjust for context.

I should explained that more clearly.

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