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Sunday, April 02, 2006

Roger Maris

Eligible in 1974.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 02, 2006 at 11:34 PM | 30 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 02, 2006 at 11:48 PM (#1931093)
Was Maris plain or peanut?
   2. Ardo Posted: April 03, 2006 at 02:02 AM (#1931649)
Plain - as plain as the Midwest he came from.

His playing record is better than his numerical comps Bob Allison and Jay Buhner, but falls squat in the Hall of Very Good.
   3. OCF Posted: April 03, 2006 at 03:07 AM (#1931775)
The first member of the '67-'68 Cardinals - the team that cemented my fanhood - to become eligible for the HoM. Of course, to be honest: Maris was still useful, but had he not played for those teams, they would have covered the position in some other way (possibly just pushing Bobby Tolan into the lineup more), and not particularly noticed the difference.
   4. sunnyday2 Posted: April 03, 2006 at 10:31 AM (#1932423)
A tragic figure. I admired Maris and still do. I wish I could find a reason to vote for him.
   5. rawagman Posted: April 03, 2006 at 01:14 PM (#1932482)
I think he can earn a prime/peak vote. I would want more info on what cause his career to end so quickly. Any interesting circumstances? I am partially inclined to give extra pus for him on the stress that very few other ballplayers have ever had to deal with and still shining through.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 03, 2006 at 01:25 PM (#1932487)
I would want more info on what cause his career to end so quickly. Any interesting circumstances?

He suffered a hand injury which zapped his power. It doesn't appear that his career was derailed due to stress.
   7. Mike Emeigh Posted: April 03, 2006 at 01:51 PM (#1932511)
He suffered a hand injury which zapped his power. It doesn't appear that his career was derailed due to stress.


He was going to retire after the 1966 season, and told the Yankees as much before he was traded. After he was traded, Gussie Busch promised him a brewery franchise if he'd play for the Cards for a couple of years, which he did.

-- MWE
   8. TomH Posted: April 03, 2006 at 02:22 PM (#1932547)
Won 2 MVPs, deserved neither. Sportwriters luv them RBI.
   9. DavidFoss Posted: April 03, 2006 at 02:57 PM (#1932603)
I think he can earn a prime/peak vote

I don't think so. I mean 1960-61 are nice, but nowhere near historic. (OPS+ of 161 and 167) Ralph Kiner, Chuck Klein, and Hack Wilson were all better for longer. Colavito's best season (1958) is better than either of them and his second best season (1961) is close. Rocky was healthier and was no slouch in the field. Maris has to rank below Rocky, in my opinion.

The 61* in '61 is a great story (and a fun movie) and I'll always be a fan, but Roger is not HOM material.
   10. rawagman Posted: April 03, 2006 at 04:40 PM (#1932796)
let's examine his fielding. I have heard it said that the range factor is very much dictated by the quality of one's OF mates. Yet it seems that the OF trio of Mantle, Maris and Berra (61-63 - don't quote the year) all had good range factors in the OF for the Yanks. Maris seems average to slightly above on the grass.
Now I am not by any means thinking of Maris as a high vote, but am considering the plausability of if/where he fits on my ballot. Essentially, this is his peak factor - the circumstances surrounding his peak were not favorable to him. How much of that is "merit"? I also appreciate his lack of down time. His hitting was almost always above average.
My mind isn't made up about him yet
   11. Mark Donelson Posted: April 03, 2006 at 04:56 PM (#1932826)
Well, in my eyes, he certainly doesn't make it on peak alone. He'll get into my top 50, probably, but I agree with David that he's well behind Colavito, and also behind Cravath among unelected but eligible RFs. That probably makes him at best something like 40th for me (and maybe not even that).

Then again, I'm pretty straight peak, not peak/prime, so I'll have to leave the prime anti-Maris argument to others.
   12. DavidFoss Posted: April 03, 2006 at 05:24 PM (#1932909)
I forgot about Cravath (and he's on my ballot, too). I vote for Charlie Jones as well. I had mentioned Kiner. Plus a bunch of guys I don't vote for: (Keller, Klein, HWilson, KWilliams, JHeath). All these guys had two-season peaks just as good or better than Maris'. That's the anti-peak argument.

I also appreciate his lack of down time. His hitting was almost always above average.

We're not talking about pitchers where there's a lot of value in being near average. This is a corner outfielder. These guys need to rake and rake consistently. Maris's 3rd-to-5th best seasons are decent but not dominant (59,62,64). He had a 6th season where he hit well, but missed significant time (63). Outside of that he was just struggling to stay healthy and non-mediocre. That's the anti-prime argument.

(I'm trying to do my due diligence here. Sorry Rog! :-) Just giving you a thorough look)
   13. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 03, 2006 at 05:44 PM (#1933005)
IMO, Maris should go on your ballot if 1) you ignore the environment that helped create his record in '61, thereby giving additional credit towards it and/or 2) you give his two MVPs a lot of weight.

Since I don't give his record or MVPs much weight, Maris wont be close to my ballot. He needed far more career to boost his HoM case for me.
   14. Chris Fluit Posted: April 03, 2006 at 08:40 PM (#1934640)
I do give Maris' two MVP years of 1960 and 1961 a lot of weight. But as others have noted (particulary David Foss), there are a lot of other corner outfielders with one or two outstanding MVP-caliber seasons that also have more very good years to go along with it. Hack Wilson, Chuck Klein and even fellow new candidate Rocky Colavito are all more deserving than Maris for the Hall of Merit.
   15. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 03, 2006 at 08:54 PM (#1934759)
I do give Maris' two MVP years of 1960 and 1961 a lot of weight.

I should clarify my position better. I give proper weight to those seasons based on the numbers, but I don't give a Maris a boost based on the awards themselves.
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: April 03, 2006 at 09:34 PM (#1934979)
Just to document something that was said above (that Maris didn't deserve his MVPs).

1960

Mantle .275/.399/.558/166 (638 AB + BB)
Maris .283/.371/.581/164 (564)

Not to say these are the only candidates, but even between the two Mantle would apper to have a slight edge.

1961

Mantle .317/.448/.687/210 (640)
Maris .279/.372/.620/170 (657)
Colavito .290/.402/.580/156 (696) included just for fun, not his bestest year

No way Maris here. Again, not that these are the only candidates. A piece of cork was a damn good candidate this year, too.

And just for still more fun, here are some career-best years:

Colavito 1958 .303/.405/.620/183 (573)
Mathews 1954 .290/.423/.603/177 (589)
Mays 1965 .317/.398/.645/184 (634)

I s'pose this should be on the Colavito thread.
   17. sunnyday2 Posted: April 03, 2006 at 09:34 PM (#1934983)
Just to document something that was said above (that Maris didn't deserve his MVPs).

1960

Mantle .275/.399/.558/166 (638 AB + BB)
Maris .283/.371/.581/164 (564)

Not to say these are the only candidates, but even between the two Mantle would apper to have a slight edge.

1961

Mantle .317/.448/.687/210 (640)
Maris .279/.372/.620/170 (657)
Colavito .290/.402/.580/156 (696) included just for fun, not his bestest year

No way Maris here. Again, not that these are the only candidates. A piece of cork was a damn good candidate this year, too.

And just for still more fun, here are some career-best years:

Colavito 1958 .303/.405/.620/183 (573)
Mathews 1954 .290/.423/.603/177 (589)
Mays 1965 .317/.398/.645/184 (634)

I s'pose this should be on the Colavito thread.
   18. Chris Fluit Posted: April 03, 2006 at 09:51 PM (#1935056)
Maris was at least a solid MVP candidate- first in slugging percentage and RBIs for 1960, first for runs, home runs, total bases and RBIs for 1961. Sure, there were other viable candidates and cases to be made for them but even the writers at the time recognized that. Maris had fewer first place votes than Mantle in 1960, while Brooks Robinson, Minnie Minoso and Ron Hansen also received top votes. While Maris did pick up the most first place votes in 1961, he still only beat Mantle by one and Jim Gentile by two. Maris was a worthy candidate for those MVP awards, but not clearly better than the rest of the field, and the voting reflected that.

Getting back to posts 13, 14 and 15: I'm in complete agreement with you, John.
   19. DavidFoss Posted: April 03, 2006 at 09:53 PM (#1935065)
What is your source for stats again, sunny? I appreciate the work you do, but its always a couple of points off of what bb-reference says.
   20. sunnyday2 Posted: April 03, 2006 at 10:17 PM (#1935119)
The Baseball Encyclopedia ed. Palmer and Gillette, 2004 ed.
   21. OCF Posted: April 03, 2006 at 10:20 PM (#1935126)
For 1961 don't forget to include Norm Cash (along with Gentile).

Then flash forward to 1994 and ask this: if you project teammates Matt Williams and Barry Bonds out to the hypothetical full season that never happened, how much would they resember Maris and Mantle?
   22. Chris Fluit Posted: April 03, 2006 at 10:28 PM (#1935149)
OCF, I didn't mention Norm Cash because he only received the one first place vote, and I did mention Gentile. You're right that they were both viable MVP candidates that year (and obviously somebody thought Luis Arroyo was as well because he also picked up a first place vote).
   23. jimd Posted: April 04, 2006 at 12:29 AM (#1935463)
always a couple of points off of what bb-reference says

bb-ref removes the pitcher's hitting. sunnyday's numbers should agree with their numbers in the DHed AL.
   24. DavidFoss Posted: April 04, 2006 at 03:14 AM (#1935983)
The Baseball Encyclopedia ed. Palmer and Gillette, 2004 ed.

OK... thanks... I actually own a copy of that.
   25. yest Posted: April 04, 2006 at 09:27 PM (#1937642)
Won 2 MVPs, deserved neither. Sportwriters luv them RBI.
I have a strange feeling Maris would have won the MVP in 61 even with only 61 RBIs
   26. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 04, 2006 at 10:52 PM (#1937756)
I have a strange feeling Maris would have won the MVP in 61 even with only 61 RBIs

You're probably right, yest, which would transform a questionable choice into a ludicrous one.
   27. Cblau Posted: April 05, 2006 at 02:45 AM (#1938393)
Maris deserved something in 1961. After all, he drove in 142 runs with Bobby Richardson and Tony Kubek hitting in front of him. I think they were only on base 81 times all year. (I could be off a little on that.)
   28. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 05, 2006 at 03:16 PM (#1939162)
I think they were only on base 81 times all year. (I could be off a little on that.)

Just a tad, Cliff. ;-)
   29. DavidFoss Posted: April 05, 2006 at 03:43 PM (#1939204)
Just a tad, Cliff. ;-)

Only a tad, though.

Yankee 1-2 hitters:

1st/.254/.293/.316
2nd/.253/.283/.345

That's with a Yankee Stadium 1961 context of .258/.332/.401

Both Mantle & Maris hit really well with RISP that year.
   30. Daryn Posted: April 05, 2006 at 04:15 PM (#1939298)
I think they were only on base 81 times all year. (I could be off a little on that.)

Just a tad, Cliff. ;-)


It looks like you were off by 311. I only checked because, as a Blue Jay fan, I cannot abide by the sullying of Tony Kubek's name.

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