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Monday, February 19, 2007

Ross Barnes

Eligible in 1898.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 19, 2007 at 03:03 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 19, 2007 at 03:10 PM (#2299947)
A member of the Class of '98, he was discussed in these threads:

1898 Ballot Discussion

Second Basemen Positional Thread

If you know of any others, please let me know.
   2. Paul Wendt Posted: June 30, 2007 at 02:16 PM (#2423749)
In "2001 Ballot Discussion"
>>
31. DavidFoss Posted: June 21, 2007 at 09:56 AM (#2411873)
It's the value vs. ability argument. Certain players might be really hurt or really helped by particular parks, and certain voters might want to reward talented players, even if circumstances diminished their value at times during their careers. Or vice versa. I understand the thinking, though it can only be taken so far.

Yeah, I guess I do "understand" it. Thanks. I guess I'm just weighing in that I'm pro-"value" as far as the HOM is concerned. The same with postseason awards. "Ability" certainly is important when doing projections.

32. TomH Posted: June 21, 2007 at 10:20 AM (#2411904)
while I'm more of a mix of 'value' and ability', hence my lukewarm support 100 years ago for Ross 'fair-foul-bunt' Barnes, and current lack of luv for G Cravath.
<<

I wonder whether there were many bunts in his bat.

Barnes led the league in doubles three times (2 1 1 - 5 1), triples once (2 - 2 - - 1); extra base hits three times (2 1 1 - 9 1). In 1871 he was a better extra-base batter than supposed slugger Levi Meyerle.
Barnes: 63 hits, 19 ebh, 28 extra bases (10-9-0)
Meyerle: 64 hits, 16 ebh, 27 extra bases (9-3-4)

I can imagine bunting with so much backspin that the ball rolls under the bench before anyone can field it as well as I can imagine chopping bounders around the bench as well as I can imagine ripping grounders wide of third base, but I doubt that anyone could do it as well.

How commonly were there fans standing in foul ground (certainly not in front of the grandstand)? Were there any ground rule doubles or triples there? Good questions.
   3. Paul Wendt Posted: March 03, 2008 at 07:11 PM (#2704906)
Quoting myself,
I can imagine bunting with so much backspin that the ball rolls under the bench before anyone can field it as well as I can imagine chopping bounders around the bench as well as I can imagine ripping grounders wide of third base, but I doubt that anyone could do it as well.

Maybe others could do it as well as Barnes or Pearce or Force or whoever.
I doubt that anyone could get many doubles and triples by hitting fair-foul bunts. I suppose that fair-foul doubles and triples were usually hard ground balls.

--
Barnes fielded shortstop for the Forest Citys, Rockford IL (at least the 1868-70 seasons, where Marshall Wright provides player records for FC); for half of the 1871 season, evidently very well (George Wright's broken leg); in his 1879 and 1881 NL comebacks under McVey and Harry Wright management.

Regarding 1867, someone may be able to find a boxscore for the famous upset of the Nationals, the only defeat on their western tour. The game that made Al Spalding famous. 1867-07-29. (Chicago Tribune?) I would link that lineup to the 1868-70 team info published by Wright.
Beginning late 1866 the FCs had at least three 1876 NL players, Barnes, Spalding, and Bob Addy.
   4. Paul Wendt Posted: March 04, 2008 at 04:16 AM (#2705335)
Ross Barnes, rank on team, per game rates
Forest City BBC, Rockford IL, 1866-1870
The club was established fall 1865. Barnes and Spalding joined "from the junior Pioneers" sometime during the inaugural 1866 season. [from SABR biographies of Addy and Barnes]

1868
SS
played all 15 games in team records*
Outs: 2.33, 2nd to Spalding
Runs: 5.00, 1st
Runs/Outs: 2nd


1869
amateur, maybe split gate receipts
SS
played 23 of 24 games in team records*
Outs: 2.69, 4th
Runs: 5.82, 3rd
Hits: 4.82, 4th
TBoH: 7.56, 4th

Scott Hasting 2B and Bob Addy C are 1-2 or 2-1 in all four categories. They lead all NABBP players on record in three categories: Hastings 6.39 runs, Addy 5.39 hits, Addy 8.91 total bases on hits.


1870
professional (rank 7, estimate by Paul Wendt)
SS
played all 56 games, all 22 pro games in team records*
Outs: --
Runs: -- (damn progress!)
Hits: all games, 3.16, 5th; pro games, 2.27, 1st
TBoH: all games, 4.34, 4th; pro games, 2.91, 4th

In pro games the four leaders are very close, far above their teammates.
In all games, Barnes is rather far behind the other three (Bob Addy, Joe Simmons, Gat Stires)


What supporting info might be useful?
   5. Paul Wendt Posted: March 14, 2008 at 09:28 PM (#2713042)
This month I have provided data for Ross Barnes and Lip Pike prior to league play, featuring per-game averages and ranks on team for the two to four batting/running statistics that are available at the season level in Marshall Wright, The National Association of Base Ball Players, 1857-1870 (McFarland 2000).

For both Barnes and Pike in 1870, where the two statistics are Hits and Total Bases, I have provided their averages and ranks on team separately for all games and for professional games only.

Here is some supporting information pertaining mainly to the distinction between professionals and amateurs that was introduced for 1869.

Ross Barnes, 1870 ranks on team (Forest City, Rockland)
Hits: all games, 3.16, 5th; pro games, 2.27, 1st
TBoH: all games, 4.34, 4th; pro games, 2.91, 4th


Those two lines report big differences between games against professionals and those against amateurs. The report is true for FC Rockland and for the whole Association.

1869
There were 12 openly professional teams. Eleven of them played 25 to 57 games on record and ten played 18 to 26 games against other professionals. Forest City, Cleveland, played 25 games with only 7 against other pros (1-6) and Irvington NJ played only 9 with 8 against other pros (0-8).

Three of the pro teams were undefeated and untied against amateurs but eleven rolled up huge winning records against them. (All but Irvington, 0-1 with a 15-16 defeat by the Resolutes of Elizabeth NJ.) Probably four amateur teams were as strong as some of the pros and stronger than the weakest 1870 pros.

We have four batting statistics (outs, runs, hits, total bases), which is good.
We have no player records limited to professional games, neither the batting statistics nor playing time and position.

1870
There were 15 openly professional teams, fairly easy to rank, with a clear gap between ten and eleven. The bottom five did not play a single game among themselves, which is only the highlight of a scheduling imbalance that makes all judgments from season records alone unreliable. The ten played 24 to 47 pro games and the five played 4 to 16 pro games. Collectively the bottom five finished 0-31-1 against the top five and 6-14 against the middle five. The middle five finished 16-54-2 against the top five and 17-17 among themselves.

Two amateur teams were as strong as the second five pros and I rank them 9-10 of a clear top twelve. Probably two more amateur teams should rank in the low or mid-teens, above some pros.

We have two batting statistics, hits and total bases, which is bad. :-(
We have player records limited to professional games for some of the teams. Unfortunately, they are not the strongest teams, who also played the most games. Instead we have professional-games player records for teams that rank roughly 2-3-4-5 7 9 12-13-14-15 among the pros and we have only all-games player records for teams that rank roughly 1 6 8 10-11. Those two batting statistics are so limited that the lack doesn't cause me too much pain. Playing time and position data would be more valuable (perhaps not for ranking HOM members) and I miss it. Some of these clubs evidently fielded highly variable teams and I suppose that some of the players involved worked mainly against pros or mainly against amateurs by design.

Any questions?
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 14, 2008 at 10:21 PM (#2713065)
I just wanted to take the time to thank you for all of the information that you have been posting, Paul. It is greatly appreciated.
   7. karlmagnus Posted: March 16, 2008 at 08:08 PM (#2713771)
How did he get christened Roscoe Conkling Barnes? The politician was an obscure 22 year old lawyer when he was born, in a different state (Barnes Chicago, Conkling NY). Were they related?
   8. Paul Wendt Posted: March 18, 2008 at 04:06 AM (#2714495)
That one turned out to be urban legend, I believe. Maybe a fan or lackey of Roscoe Conkling salted the historical evidence, or it was simply somebody's prank.

He was listed as Roscoe Conkling Barnes when SABR published 19c Stars (1989) but he has been Charles Roscoe for a several years now.
   9. Paul Wendt Posted: April 13, 2008 at 12:23 AM (#2741542)
This pertains to Dickey Pearce, too.
I have previously questioned how many fair-foul hits were bunts.

gleaned from The Baseball Chronology, internet edition at baseballlibrary.com
emphasis mine

1877
8th
Batting champ Ross Barnes goes 2-for-4 in Chicago's opener despite the new rule that makes a ball that goes foul before reaching 1B or 3B a foul ball. The old rule enabled Barnes to hit many safe "fair-foul" balls back past 3B.
   10. Paul Wendt Posted: May 10, 2008 at 01:12 AM (#2775252)
Oops, last month I dropped the middle third of that date. (typed the year, pasted the rest)
1877 May 8
. . . The old rule enabled Barnes to hit many safe "fair-foul" balls back past 3B.


Full Seasons Equivalent games played by Ross Barnes in the major leagues from 1901.
POS seasons
2B 5.53
SS 2.02
3B 0.21
OF 0.050
P 0.015

Barnes was healthy for six league seasons, 1871-76. He played half of 1871 at shortstop while George Wright was out with a broken leg and 5-1/2 seasons at second.
He had been the regular shortstop of the Forest City Club of Rockford IL since 1868 or earlier, nominally amateur before 1870. (Spalding later said they were splitting gate receipts by the end of the decade, which we usually call semi-pro.)

The Forest Citys famously beat the touring Nationals of Washington DC in 1867, but I doubt anyone would call them a major team before 1868. Depending on whether 1868 or 1869 counts, that makes 3 to 5 seasons for Barnes as a major team shortstop.
   11. bjhanke Posted: June 02, 2008 at 04:33 AM (#2802801)
Paul quotes a contemporary source, "The old rule enabled Barnes to hit many safe "fair-foul" balls back past 3B." You know, that sounds more like what we now call "swinging bunt" rather than the type of bunting we do now, deadening the ball. And a swinging bunt going foul past third, that's a double, which would explain some of Barnes' power. - Brock
   12. Paul Wendt Posted: June 02, 2008 at 01:22 PM (#2802871)
Probably this is clear but just in case:
I don't believe they were bunts of any kind.
   13. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 02, 2008 at 01:48 PM (#2802884)
Since Barnes was a great triples hitter, that's a great indication that he had real power prior to his injury.
   14. Paul Wendt Posted: June 02, 2008 at 10:43 PM (#2803344)
Regarding 1867, someone may be able to find a boxscore for the famous upset of the Nationals, the only defeat on their western tour. The game that made Al Spalding famous. 1867-07-29. (Chicago Tribune?) I would link that lineup to the 1868-70 team info published by Wright.
The correct date will help!
Now reading the Chicago Tribune online via ProQuest Historical Newspapers, a subscription available for members of some university and public libraries. 1867-07-25, page 4, "Other 5 - No Title"

The Nationals arrived in Chicago from St Louis yesterday, Wednesday July 24.
"The programme for the tournament which commences today":
(three matches)
Thu 2 pm: match, Nationals and the Forest City Club, of Rockford
Fri 2 pm: exhibition games by the Nationals and other clubs
Sat 2 pm: match, Nationals and Excelsiors (of Chicago)
Sun 10 am and 7:30 pm: clubs will attend church and the YMCA
Mon 2 pm: match, Nationals and Atlantics (of Chicago)

The state convention of base ball clubs begins at 9am Friday. "It is believed that delegates will be present at this convention from all the leading clubs of the State."

1867-07-26, page 4
The Trib provides a story with complete play by play (except some assists and putouts) and box score. The batting and fielding positions of Rockford's future major leaguers.
1, 2b, Addy
4, p, Spaulding (sic)
9, ss, Barnes

Here are two telling statistics, the first two footnotes to the box.
"Passed Balls [catchers] -- Forest City--King, 7; National--Norton, 11; Berthrong, 4; total, 15.
"Balls Called [pitchers] -- Forest City--Spaulding, 6; National--Williams, 33."

They played through one shower and suspended play during two showers.

--
If you have access to the Chicago Tribune via ProQuest, search for
base ball
from 07/24/1867 to 07/31/1867

There is detail coverage of the three matche games with the Nationals and of the State Convention.
Only a blurb 07/24 on yesterday's game in St Louis, terminated at 6 innings for the Nationals to make the train to Chicago (leading 53-26).

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