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Monday, July 25, 2005

Sam Jethroe

Sam Jethroe

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2005 at 06:28 PM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 25, 2005 at 06:34 PM (#1496772)
Will the Jet's candidacy take off or will it crash and burn?
   2. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 25, 2005 at 07:03 PM (#1496862)
I don't have my usual sources with me, but I found information posted by a Eric Enders and a Mr. Russell on btf at the time of Jethroe's death. I'm reposting the stats along with the link so everyone can check it out for themselves. Note that Jethroe had surgery to remvoe a stomach problem after his horrid 1952 season and was his usual self thereafter.
TIEE's Article on Jethroe and its responses
Year Lg  Team  G  AB  R   H   2B 3B HR  RBI    BA   SA   TB  SB
1944 NgL Cle  68 275  55  97  14  2          .353 .440  121  18
1945 NgL Cle  56 214  61  84  10 10  3   37  .393 .575  123  21 
1946 NgL Cle  62 226  54  70         6       .310            20 
1947 NgL Cle     306  90 108  35 10  7       .353 .601  184  52  
1948 NgL Cle  47 186  61  55  13  4  5   30  .296 .489   91  29
1948 IL  Mon  76 292  52  94  19 11  1   25  .322 .473  138  18 
1949 IL  Mon 153 635 154 207  34 19 17   83  .326 .520  330  89
1950 NL  Bos 141 582 100 159  28  8 18   58  .273 .442  257  35
1951 NL  Bos 148 572 101 160  29 10 18   65  .280 .460  263  35
1952 NL  Bos 151 608  79 141  23  7 13   58  .232 .357  217  28
1953 IL  Tol 145 543 137 168  32 10 28   74  .309 .560  304  27
1954 IL  Tor 154 593 113 181  36  8 21   84  .305 .499  296  23
1955 IL  Tor 145 485  88 127  16  4 16   66  .262 .410  199  24
1956 IL  Tor 149 567 105 163  25  4 19   68  .287 .446  253  22
1957 IL  Tor 130 451  83 125  16  6 15   39  .277 .439  198  24
1958 IL  Tor  68 184  20  43  11  0  2   18  .234 .326   60   5


I don't know where Mr. Russell got his numbers, but I'll double-check them this evening against Riley. I'll try to post about them and also post up Brown's numbers either tonight or tomorrow.
   3. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2005 at 07:16 PM (#1496905)
Jethroe is believed to have been born in January 1918 so he made his NeL debut at age 26. At the time of his ML debut he claimed to have been vorn in 1922. Some believe he was born before 1918.

So where was he before 1944 and could he possibly have some additional MLEs coming? I don't know the answer to either question.

After 1952 he probably was still a ML player but only for 1953 and '54, I'd guess. I mean he might under different circumstances have been given 1955 as a bench player but not any more.

So that makes maybe 12 years of MLEs unless we can determine something prior to '44.

His HR numbers are certainly interesting, however. One would have to conclude that the white world valued HR more so than the NeLs did, or else he just developed a power stroke real late.
   4. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 25, 2005 at 08:10 PM (#1497037)
OK, super quick and dirty version of Jethroe's MLEs. Using the data posted above, I applied the .90/.82 discount that Chris Cobb uses to Jethroe's NgL and IL seasons (figuring that for this purpose that would be close enough, though I'd like to get closer, so if someone thinks there's a better conversion rate for the 1950s IL, please say so). I redistributed the xBH based on his career xBH/H rates.

Where data was missing I tried to fill in using surrounding seasons or career norms.

Walk rate is based on his MLB walk rate which was roughly a walk for every 10 ABs.

YEAR  AB    H   TB  2B  3B  HR  bb  AVG  obp  SLG
-------------------------------------------------
1944 586  186  212  27   4   4  59 .318 .380 .361
1945 554  196  261  23  23   7  55 .354 .412 .472
1946 529  147  278  13  11  13  53 .279 .345 .526
1947 550  175  271  57  16  11  55 .318 .380 .493
1948 563  158  221  34  16   6  56 .281 .346 .393
1949 635  186  271  31  17  15  64 .293 .358 .426
1950 582  159  257  28   8  18  58 .273 .339 .442
1951 572  160  263  29  10  18  57 .280 .345 .460
1952 608  141  217  23   7  13  61 .232 .302 .357
1953 543  151  249  29   9  25  54 .278 .344 .459
1954 593  163  243  32   7  19  59 .275 .340 .409
1955 485  114  163  14   4  14  49 .236 .305 .336
1956 567  146  207  22   4  17  57 .258 .326 .366
1957 451  112  162  14   5  13  45 .249 .318 .360
1958 184   39   49  10   0   2  18 .211 .282 .267
=================================================
TOT 8003 2235 3275 386 139 196 800 .279 .345 .409


I don't think this is a HOM-level player, however, I'm glad to at least have made sure of it. The only thing that could change my mind is if my Q&D conversion rate for the IL is too low. That might make him look a little better, but unlikely to make him look good enough to jump into the 1958 three-inductee sweepstakes.
   5. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2005 at 08:51 PM (#1497104)
Doc,

>The only thing that could change my mind

Or if he was active at an MLE worthy rate before 1944 (age 26)??? I suspect somebody will tell us eventually.
   6. karlmagnus Posted: July 25, 2005 at 09:23 PM (#1497149)
Dr Chaleeko, is this a conversion into the ACTUAL 1944-45 ML, or into a hypothetical non-war ML? Probably not a HOM-relevant question here, but will be for e.g. Willard Brown.

It would seem likely (but you guys are more expert than me) that about the same proportion of NEL and ML players went into the services, so the factors remain the same, but the MLEs should be given a "Wartime discount" (and conversely those NEL players in the services in 1942-45 should be given credit for those years.)
   7. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2005 at 10:18 PM (#1497226)
is this a conversion into the ACTUAL 1944-45 ML, or into a hypothetical non-war ML?

Several of Chris Cobb's posted MLE's contain data from 1943-45. When calculating OPS+, I use the actual NL data from those years as a context. I have no idea if there is an implied discount that needs to be applied on top of that.
   8. karlmagnus Posted: July 25, 2005 at 10:34 PM (#1497249)
That's what I thought, in which case I think there should be a further discount, unless NEL players were for some reason drafted at wildly different rates from ML players, which would have had the effect of increasing NEL strength relative to ML.
   9. sunnyday2 Posted: July 25, 2005 at 10:45 PM (#1497261)
karl, David didn't say there wasn't a WWII discount in the NeL/MLE calculations for '43-'45, he said he didn't know. Let's wait to find out which it is.
   10. DavidFoss Posted: July 25, 2005 at 11:09 PM (#1497298)
David didn't say there wasn't a WWII discount in the NeL/MLE calculations for '43-'45, he said he didn't know.

Yes. We were just pegging down the context level, not the talent level. For example, SLG numbers were down in the NL from 1941-46. (War years 43-45 are about the same context as 41,42,46) So a .400 translated SLG is worth more in this period than before or after.

Its nowhere near as drastic as the shift that occurred between 1930 and 1931, but little stuff like this can make some noticeable changes in OPS+.

But, yes, Chris does the hard part. I don't know how wartime play is handled in the MLE's.
   11. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 26, 2005 at 02:47 AM (#1498012)
I don't know what Chris does for 1943-1945, but I can tell you that these MLEs are not adjustd at all for the war.

Caveat: these are NOT Chris-Cobb-Certified MLEs, these are Doc's Quick and Dirty MLEs in a Bottle. Like liquid smoke, they are are designed to give you flavor, not authenticity. (As in, "he needs a longer look" or "I'm cool with remanding him deep into the backlog without going too much deeper.")
   12. sunnyday2 Posted: August 13, 2005 at 11:36 PM (#1544314)
bump
   13. KJOK Posted: August 14, 2005 at 06:24 AM (#1544956)
Sam of course gets A+ for speed/stolen bases which helps his case, but with what looks like around a 100 OPS+, he's essentially Cool Papa Bell without the longevity...
   14. KJOK Posted: August 22, 2005 at 11:19 PM (#1564148)
I get a rough estimate of a career 104 OPS+ for Jethroe...

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