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Friday, July 11, 2003

Start and McVey

A place to focus the discussion for them.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 11, 2003 at 03:53 PM | 113 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Paul Wendt Posted: February 19, 2008 at 01:12 AM (#2694146)
bump
   102. Paul Wendt Posted: February 19, 2008 at 01:15 AM (#2694148)
Here is the summary version showing Joe Start's rank on his team in those batting/baserunning categories, all per game played.

Joe Start, rank on team 1860-70 (underline '64-68)

3 1 ; 9 3 5 1 1 1 1 1 - : Runs per game

3 1 ; 4 5 2 1 2 1 1 4 - : Outs per game

- - ; - - - - - - 1 1 1 : Hits per game

- - ; - - - - - - 5 1 2 : Total Bases per game

'Outs' is Hands Lost, batting and baserunning outs. Average was close to three per game.
There was a shift in the record-keeping categories. Hyphen (-) is not available.

Enterprise of Brooklyn 1860-61 (separated by ';' ) was a second-tier club.
Atlantic of Brooklyn 1862-70 was already a storied club when Start joined; certainly the strongest team in his time overall and a contender in every season; eclipsed by Eckford '62-63, undefeated '64-65, arguably strongest '66-68 ('64-68 underlined), perhaps 2nd and 5th '69-70
   103. Paul Wendt Posted: February 19, 2008 at 01:16 AM (#2694150)
(the long version is #98 on the preceding page)
   104. Paul Wendt Posted: February 19, 2008 at 04:34 AM (#2694269)
Correction. 1860, 2nd in Outs per game

Here is his team rank in the fractional measure
Runs per Out
3 1 ; 8 4 3 1 1 1 1 2 -


Runs and Outs are not available for 1870.
1869 is second to Lip Pike.
   105. Paul Wendt Posted: March 14, 2008 at 10:04 PM (#2713057)
See Ross Barnes #5 for background on professional and amateur competition in 1869-1870

Joe Start - 1870 record expanded to cover professional games too

Atlantic of Brooklyn, 1862-1870
1870
1B
56 games played; 36 professional games
rank among 9 team members who played 46-58 games (next high listing is 6 games) or 33-36 pro games
Runs - ?
Outs - ?
Hits - 2.88, 1st (all games); 2.75, 1st (pro games)
TBoH - 4.41, 2nd (all games); 4.14, 2nd (pro games)
--

Note that the Atlantics almost fielded a set team against professional rivals. Pitcher George Zettlein worked 33 of 36 games, shortstop Dickey Pearce 34 of 36, everyone else all 36 games.
Four of those others missed 2-4 games against amateurs, Pearce missed one, and Zettlein worked only 13 of the 22 amateur games.

The Atlantic batting statistics surprise to me. (See Ross Barnes #5 for my generalizations or expectations.) The differences between all games and pro games in (batting) hits per game are small with eight in the expected direction and Dickey Pearce in the unexpected direction.

Hits per game, Atlantic 1870
ordered 1B 2B SS 3B LF CF RF C P (Start, Pike, Pearce, . . .
all games: 2.88 2.48 2.35 2.27 2.58 2.03 1.82 2.33 1.87
pro games: 2.75 2.33 2.50 2.03 2.39 1.86 1.69 2.25 1.55

Part of the difference between Forest City, Rockford (Ross Barnes), and Atlantic, Brooklyn, in the different records of their batsmen against all teams and pro teams, may be in the scoring rather than the playing. Perhaps the Forest Citys scored hits and the Atlantics scored errors on similar fielding plays by amateur opponents. On the Brooklyn side that might represent relative generosity to amateur fielders. Or it might represent a dedicated effort to make the Atlantic records a truer measure of the performance of their batsmen. ("Joe Start, first base on error; George Wright would have had it.") Whose effort? The team's official scorer. Or maybe Henry Chadwick scored local games himself and used his own work in the weekly Clipper and the annual Guides.
   106. Paul Wendt Posted: May 10, 2008 at 01:47 AM (#2775347)
Joe Start played one position almost exclusively about as long as anyone in the major leagues.
Luis Aparicio played shortstop exclusively for 18 nearly full seasons; Ozzie Smith for 19 years but fewer games.
Start is one of the near-fixtures and, like Mays and Speaker at a more demanding position, he topped 20 years.

--
Counting the outfield as one, Cal McVey played five positions about as uniformly as anyone in the major leagues.

Full Seasons Equivalent
Cal McVey 1871-1879

POS seasons
C 3.54
1B 2.46
OF 1.68 (rf 1.55)
3B 1.40
P 0.52
SS 0.087
2B 0.086

With the Cincinnati Red Stockings of 1869 and 1870, McVey played almost every game in right field. Over 11 seasons with major teams, 1869-1879, he played about 3.5 seasons at outfield or RF, same as at catcher.

Some would count 1880 in California (between seasons the NL made its reserve agreement and he chose not to return). I understand that he was a team organizer and manager there, in which case I guess he played first base, wherefrom he managed the Cincinnati team in 1879.
   107. Paul Wendt Posted: May 10, 2008 at 01:48 AM (#2775350)
Full Seasons Equivalent
Cal McVey 1871-1879, by fielding position

C_ 3.54
1B 2.46
OF 1.68 (rf 1.55)
3B 1.40
P_ 0.52
   108. Paul Wendt Posted: May 10, 2008 at 03:09 AM (#2775594)
For McVey, the grand sum of FSE by fielding position is greater than greater than 9.00 for 1870-79 and 11.00 for 1869-79 --greater than 1.00 FSE per year-- because he participated in numerous mid-game switches as a pitcher or catcher.

Without that double-counting he played 8.50 FSE during 9 years.
1871-1879 FSE, all fielding positions*
8.89 Deacon White
8.80 Ezra Sutton
8.68 Joe Start
8.63 Tom Carey
8.59 Tom York
8.50 Cal McVey

* no double counting for multiple fielding positions in one game; contrast the sum of FSE by fielding position

One of those guys is there out of the blue in place of Cap Anson!
   109. Paul Wendt Posted: January 17, 2009 at 06:19 PM (#3054319)
87. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 12, 2003 at 10:03 PM (#515422)
> Is there an earthquake that I missed? Or is Brooklyn still connected to Long Island (and Queens, too!)

I could have sworn that I always drove over a drawbridge when I went to my grandmother's house in Brooklyn from Long Island. My father always told me that they were connected at one time, but an area between the two areas was removed to make it easier for boats to navigate the waters.

Queens was still part of Long Island when I left New York in '92, if I recall correctly. :-)


John Murphy,

I suppose that travelled to Grandma Murphy's house "over the canal and through the 'hoods" perhaps by a drawbridge over the Gowanus Canal.

The canal does not encircle Brooklyn or any part of it from Long Island; that would tenselessly be a very western perspective. The wikipedia article seems commendable, maybe you will half-recognize something, more likely a bridge than the idyllic painting Sunset at Gowanus Bay in the Bay New York (1851) by Henry Gritten.
   110. Paul Wendt Posted: January 17, 2009 at 08:35 PM (#3054376)
(Thanks to DanGreenia.)

Much of this page including Chris Cobb's early discussion of Win Shares estimates for the National Association 1871-1875 is available at the Internet Archive (2003-07-23 edition of this thread)
   111. Paul Wendt Posted: January 17, 2009 at 08:42 PM (#3054382)
Useful if that site is troubled, someone has posted
Chris Cobb #27, 2003-07-23 at another location.

(Excuse my hasty reference just above. 2003-08-16 is the edition of this thread at the Internet Archive.)
   112. Paul Wendt Posted: January 17, 2009 at 08:44 PM (#3054384)
ahem,
Chris Cobb #27, 2003-07-23 at another website
   113. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 17, 2009 at 09:01 PM (#3054393)
I suppose that travelled to Grandma Murphy's house "over the canal and through the 'hoods" perhaps by a drawbridge over the Gowanus Canal.


I honestly don't remember, Paul. The only thing that I recall was that the drawbridge was connected to the Belt Parkway.
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