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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 02, 2004

The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home Page

Enter here to see the players that have been immortalized in the Hall of Merit.

John Murphy was the curator of the Plaque Room and creator (with Ryan Wagman’s help) of the plaques. As of 2011 the creator of the plaques is theorioleway.

David Foss is in charge of the franchise cap standings.

Devin McCullen provides the city and state cap standings.

yest helps us out double-checking the plaques for accuracy.

The whole process is overseen by our commissioner and founder Joe Dimino.

For Hall of Meriters A-F, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters G-L, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters M-R, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters S-Z, please click here.

The current roster (246 total) includes (in alphabetical order for each position):

Pitchers (66): Pete Alexander+, Kevin Brown+, Bert Blyleven+, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown+, Jim Bunning+, Steve Carlton+, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson+, Roger Clemens+**, Stan Coveleski, David Cone, Martín Dihigo+, Don Drysdale+, Dennis Eckersley+, Red Faber+, Bob Feller+, Wes Ferrell, Rollie Fingers, Whitey Ford+, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson+, Rich Gossage+, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove+*, Carl Hubbell+, Walter Johnson+*, Fergie Jenkins, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax+, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Juan Marichal+, Christy Mathewson+**, Joe McGinnity, José Méndez, Hal Newhouser+, Kid Nichols+, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige+, Jim Palmer+, Gaylord Perry+, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Rick Reuschel, Eppa Rixey, Robin Roberts+, Bullet Rogan+, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie+, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Tom Seaver+**, Warren Spahn+, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton+, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh+, Hoyt Wilhelm+, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn and Cy Young+*.

Catchers (20): Johnny Bench+, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra+, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella+, Gary Carter+, Mickey Cochrane+, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing+, Carlton Fisk+, Bill Freehan, Josh Gibson+, Gabby Hartnett+, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza+, Louis Santop+, Ted Simmons+, Joe TorreQuincy Trouppe and Deacon White+.

First Basemen (21): Cap Anson+, Jeff Bagwell+, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers+**, Will Clark+, Roger Connor+, Jimmie Foxx+, Lou Gehrig+*, Hank Greenberg+, Keith Hernandez+, Harmon Killebrew+, Buck Leonard+, Willie McCovey+, Mark McGwire+, Johnny Mize+, Eddie Murray+, Rafael Palmeiro, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, and Bill Terry+.

Second Basemen (22): Roberto Alomar+, Ross Barnes+, Craig Biggio+, Rod Carew+, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer+, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich+, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby+**, Nap Lajoie+, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan+, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson+Ryne Sandberg+, and Lou Whitaker+.

Third Basemen (19): Dick Allen+, Frank Baker+, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs+*, George Brett+**, Ken BoyerJimmy Collins, Darrell Evans+, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Eddie Mathews+, John McGraw, Paul Molitor+, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo+, Mike Schmidt+*, Ezra Sutton, and Jud Wilson.

Shortstops (26): Luke Appling+, Ernie Banks+, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen+, George Davis+, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin+, John Henry Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Pee Wee Reese+, Cal Ripken, Jr.+**, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith+, Alan Trammell+, Arky Vaughan+, Honus Wagner+*, Bobby Wallace, John Ward+, Willie Wells, George Wright and Robin Yount+.

Left Fielders (23): Jesse Burkett, Barry Bonds+*, Fred Clarke+, Ed Delahanty+, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson+*, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial+*, Tim Raines+, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons+, Willie Stargell+, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat+, Billy Williams, Ted Williams+*, and Carl Yastrzemski+.

Center Fielders (26): Richie Ashburn+, Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Willard BrownPete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston+, Ty Cobb+, Andre Dawson, Joe DiMaggio+*, Larry Doby+, George Gore+, Billy Hamilton+Pete Hill+, Paul Hines+ , Mickey Mantle+*, Willie Mays+*, Alejandro Oms, Jim O’Rourke+, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Duke Snider+, Tris Speaker+, Turkey Stearnes+, Cristóbal Torriente and Jimmy Wynn.

Right Fielders (22): Hank Aaron+*, Roberto Clemente+, Sam Crawford**, Dwight Evans+, Elmer Flick, Tony Gwynn+, Harry Heilmann, Joe Jackson, Reggie Jackson+, Al Kaline+, Willie Keeler, King Kelly+, Mel Ott+, Frank Robinson+**, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth+*, Enos Slaughter+, Reggie Smith, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker+, Paul Waner+ and Dave Winfield+.

Designated Hitters (1): Edgar Martinez+

+ first-year candidate honorees (140)

* unanimously first on each voter’s ballot (16)

** placed in “elect me” ballot positions on each voter’s ballot, but not unanimously in first (9)

2012 Franchise Cap Standings
1.   Giants - 19 (Bonds, Bresnahan, WClark, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe,
     Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2.   Cubs - 17 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett,
     BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T.  Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn,
     Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T.  Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson,
     Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
3T.  Yankees - 13 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller,
     Mantle, Nettles, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
6T.  Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick,
     Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
6T.  Athletics - 12 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Henderson, McGwire, Plank,
     ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8.   Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline,
     Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
9T.  Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts,
     Schmidt, Thompson)
9T.  Reds - 10 (Bench, CJones, Groh, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. Dodgers - 10 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, 
     Vance, Wheat)
12T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
12T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
12T.  Red Sox - 9 (Boggs, Clemens, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, RSmith, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
15T. Orioles - 6 (Murray, Palmer, Ripken, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
15T. Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
17.  Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw)
18T. Astros - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, JWynn)
18T. Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
18T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
18T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
18T. Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
18T. Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
18T. Montreal Expos - 3 (GCarter, Dawson, Raines)
18T. Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
26T. Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
26T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
26T. Blue Jays - 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
26T. Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount)
26T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
26T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
26T. Mets - 2 (Cone, Seaver)
26T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
26T. Padres - 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
26T  Rangers - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
26T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
26T. Royals - 2 (Brett, Saberhagen)
38T. Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
38T. Atlantic City Bacharach Giants - 1 (Lundy)
38T. Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
38T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
38T. Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
38T. Cuban Stars East - 1 (Oms)
38T. Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
38T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
38T. Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
38T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
38T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
38T. Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning)
38T. Mariners - 1 (Martinez)
38T. Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
38T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
38T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
38T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
38T  Rockies - 1 (Walker)
38T. Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
2012 Cap Standings by City
1T.  Chicago - 29 (Anson, Appling, Banks, M. Brown, J. Clarkson, 
E. Collins, Dahlen, Faber, B. Foster, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, 
Herman, Hill, Jenkins, Kelly, Lyons, Minoso, Pierce, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, 
Sheckard, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, Bi. Williams)
1T.  New York - 29 (Berra, Bresnahan, Cone, Connor, G. Davis, Dickey, 
DiMaggio, Ewing, Ford, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, 
Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Nettles, Ott, Randolph, Ruffing, 
Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, J. Williams)
3.   Philadelphia - 19 (Alexander, Allen, Ashburn, Baker, Carlton,
Cochrane, Delahanty, R. Foster, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank,
Roberts, Schmidt, A. Simmons, H. Stovey, Thompson, Waddell)
4T.  Cleveland - 18 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, 
Doby, Feller, W. Ferrell, Flick, Glasscock, J. Jackson, Lajoie, Lemon, 
Sewell, Speaker, Trouppe, E. Wynn, Young)
4T.  St. Louis - 18 (Bell, Boyer, Caruthers, Frisch, B. Gibson, 
Hernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, T. Simmons, Sisler, 
Slaughter, Smith, Suttles, Wallace, Wells)
6.   Boston - 17 (Barnes, Boggs, Clemens, J. Collins, Doerr, Dw. Evans, Fisk, 
McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Smith, Spalding, E. Sutton, White, T. Williams, 
G. Wright, Yastrzemski)
7T.  Detroit - 13 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, 
Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes, Trammell, 
Whitaker)
7T.  Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, R. Brown, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, 
J. Gibson, Kiner, B. Leonard, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, Waner)
9T.  Baltimore - 10 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw, 
Murray, Palmer, Ripken, B. Robinson, Wilson)
9T.  Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, G. Johnson, Pearce, Reese, 
J. Robinson, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat)
9T.  Cincinnati - 10 (Bench, Groh, Jones, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, 
F. Robinson, Rose, Roush)
12. San Francisco - 7 (Bonds, Clark, Da. Evans, Marichal, Mays, McCovey, G. Perry)
13. Milwaukee - 6 (Aaron, Mathews, Molitor, Spahn, Torre, Yount)
14T. Kansas City - 5 (Brett, W. Brown, Moore, Rogan, Saberhagen)
14T. Oakland - 5 (Eckersley, Fingers, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGwire)
16. Los Angeles - 4 (Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, D. Sutton)
17T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T. Houston - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, J. Wynn)
17T. Montreal - 3 (Carter, Dawson, Raines)
17T. Minneapolis/St. Paul - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew)
17T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, W. Johnson)
22T. Anaheim* - 2 (Grich, N. Ryan)
22T. Arlington - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
221T. N/A - 2 (F. Grant, Oms)
22T. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
22T. San Diego – 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
22T. Toronto – 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
28T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez)
28T. Atlanta - 1 (Niekro)
28T. Atlantic City – 1 (Lundy)
28T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey)
28T. Denver - 1 (Walker)
28T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo)
28T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston)
28T. Louisville – 1 (Browning)
28T. Newark - 1 (Irvin)
28T. Seattle – 1 (Martinez)

* Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered to be part of another city.

2012 Cap Standings by State, Province, Foreign Country (if there is no 
knowm state or province) or U.S. Capital:
1.   New York (42)
2.   Pennsylvania (33)
3T.  Illinois (28)
3T.  Ohio (28)
5.   Missouri (23)
6.   California (20)
7.   Massachusetts (17)
8.   Michigan (13)
9.   Maryland (10)
10.  Wisconsin (6)
11.  Texas (5)
12T. Minnesota (3)
12T. Quebec (3)
12T. District of Columbia (3)
15T. Cuba (2)
15T. New Jersey (2)
15T. Rhode Island (2)
15T. Georgia (2)
15T. Indiana (2)
15T. Kentucky (2)
15T. Ontario (2)
22T. Colorado (1)
22T. Oregon (1)



Note all mentions of Win Shares on plaques are adjusted to 162 games.

All Negro League awards mentioned on the plaques are from John Holway’s The Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues (Fleet Walker Award = MVP; George Stovey Award = Cy Young Award; Rube Foster Award = Playoff MVP).

Primary positions on the plaques will be distinguished from secondary positions on all plaques by bold type.

Seasons are calculated this way: (Games Played/Team’s Scheduled Games). Each result is added up for each season to get the final number shown on each plaque.

Here are the plaques of the most recent inductees:


Barry Bonds - 2013 - LF
18.8 seasons with Pittsburgh (NL) 1986-1992; San Francisco (NL) 1993-2007
Cap: San Francisco Giants (NL)
Like his godfather Willie Mays, Barry Bonds’ impact on baseball left many in awe. Widely considered as one of the best players of all-time, he was unanimously placed first on every Hall of Merit ballot in his first year of consideration. A great all-around player early in his career who evolved into the most intimidating hitter ever (he has each of the top three and six of the top ten seasons of accumulated intentional walks), Bonds’ name is everywhere in the record books. He led the league in Runs (1992), HR (1993 and 2001, when he established a new single-season record 73), RBI (1993) BB (1992, 1994-1997, 2000-2004, 2006-2007), IBB (1992-1998, 2002-2004, 2006-2007), TB (1993), BA (2002, 2004), OBP (1991-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, 2006-2007, with 2004’s .609 and 2002’s .582 being the top two seasonal OBPs in baseball history) SLG (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004, which includes the MLB record of .863, set in 2001), OPS (1990-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, including the top two marks in history in 2004’s 1.422 and 2002’s 1.381), and OPS+ (1990-1993, 2000-2004, including the top three marks in MLB history, in 2002’s 268, 2004’s 263, and 2001’s 259). His 2004 season was also noteworthy in that he became the first player to have a season with more times on base than at bats (376 vs. 373). Bonds’ individual season dominance added up, as at the time of his induction he ranked in the top ten all-time in PA (9th – 12,606), Runs (3rd – 2,207), TB (4th – 5,796), HR (1st – 762), RBI (4th – 1,996), BB (1st – 2,558), IBB (1st – 688), XBH (2nd – 1,440), AB/HR (3rd – 12.9), times on-base (2nd – 5,599), OBP (6th - .444), SLG (6th - .607), OPS (4th – 1.051), and OPS+ (3rd – 182). Bonds is also the only player in the history of the game to reach the 500 marks in both career HR and career SB. He played on six division winning teams (1990-1992 with Pittsburgh and 1997, 2000, 2003 with San Francisco) and with the wild-card winning Giants in 2002 submitted a World Series performance for the ages, hitting .471/.700/1.294 with 4 HR in a losing effort. He holds the all-time Giants records in BB (1,947), IBB (575) OBP (.447), SLG (.666), OPS (1.143), and OPS+ (199). Fourteen-time All-Star (1990, 1992-1998, 2000-2004, 2007) who won 12 Silver Slugger awards (1990-1994, 1996-1997, 2000-2004), eight Gold Gloves (1990-1994, 1996-1998), and a record seven MVP awards (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004).

Roger Clemens - 2013 - P
Boston (AL) 1984-1996; Toronto (AL) 1997-1998; New York (AL) 1999-2003, 2007; Houston (NL) 2004-2006
Cap: Boston Red Sox (AL)
Known as the Rocket for his fiery temperament and overpowering fastball, Roger Clemens is considered by many as the best post-WWII pitcher—if not the best in all of baseball history. A workhorse pitcher who twice struck out 20 batters in a game, Clemens dominated the pitching landscape during his career. He led the league in wins (1986-1987, 1997-1998), winning percentage (1986, 2001, 2004), CG (1987-1988, 1997), SHO (1987-1988, 1990-1992, 1997), IP (1991, 1997), SO (1988, 1991, 1996-1998), ERA (1986, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2005), WHIP (1986, 1992, 1997), ERA+ (1986, 1990-1992, 1994, 1997-1998, 2005), H/9 (1986, 1994, 1998, 2005), SO/9 (1988, 1996, 1998), and SO/BB (1987-1988, 1990, 1992). Clemens was on two World Series winning teams (1999 and 2000 with the Yankees) along with seven other division winners (1986, 1988, 1990, 1995 with Boston and 2001-2003 with New York) and three wild-card winners (2004-2005 with Houston and 2007 with New York). Clemens’ 199 postseason innings are the fourth most all-time and his 173 strikeouts rank third all-time at the time of his induction. In his eight World Series starts, he went 3-0 with a 2.37 ERA and 49 strikeouts. For his career, Clemens ended up with the 9th most wins (354), 16th most innings pitched (4,916.2), third in strikeouts (4,672), seventh in games started (707), and tenth in ERA+ (143). All-time Red Sox leader in wins (192), SO (2,590), and SHO (38). Eleven-time All-Star (1986, 1988, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2001, 2003-2005) who won seven Cy Young awards (1986-1987, 1991, 1997-1998, 2001, 2004) and an MVP award (1986).

Mike Piazza - 2013 - C
12.2 seasons with Los Angeles (NL) 1992-1998; Florida (NL) 1998; New York (NL) 1998-2005; San Diego (NL) 2006; Oakland (AL) 2007
Cap: Los Angeles Dodgers (NL)
Considered by many to be the best-hitting catcher in Major League history, Mike Piazza hit like a first baseman while playing the most demanding position on the field. A 62nd round draft pick in 1988, Piazza made all the other teams look like fools for not drafting him in 1993 as he won the Rookie of the Year award by hitting .318/.370/.561 (153 OPS+) with 35 HR and 112 RBI. That rookie season announced Piazza as a force to be reckoned with for a long time, as it was his first of ten seasons wherein he would put up an OPS+ of 135 or better, leading the league in both 1995 (172) and 1997 (185). By the time Piazza retired, he held the record for the most HR (427, 396 while playing catcher) and highest slugging percentage (.545) for a catcher. Piazza hit .412/.545/.941 in the NLCS against the St. Louis Cardinals to help the 2000 wild-card winner New York Mets reach the World Series, and was also on two division winners (1995 Dodgers and 2006 Padres) and two other wild-card winners (1996 Dodgers and 1999 Mets). Twelve-time All-Star (1993-2002, 2004-2005) who won ten consecutive Silver Slugger awards (1993-2002). Has the highest career OPS+ in Dodgers history (160) and highest career SLG in Mets history (.542).

Craig Biggio - 2013 - 2B/C/CF
18.0 seasons with Houston (NL) 1988-2007
Cap: Houston Astros (NL)
A gritty player known for doing whatever it took to help the team, from getting hit by pitches (he led the league five times and has the second-most all-time with 285) to changing positions (he moved from C to 2B to CF to LF back to 2B over his long career), Craig Biggio’s impact on the field was undeniable. In 1992 the Astros moved Biggio from C to 2B in an effort to maximize his odds of being able to play every day and the gamble worked out as he quickly became the best 2B in the National League, a position he would hold throughout the 1990s. A sparkplug at the top of the lineup (one of only eight players with both 3,000 hits and 400 stolen bases), Biggio led the league in games played three times (1992, 1996-1997), PA five times (1992, 1995, 1997-1999), Runs twice (1995, 1997), 2B three times (1994, 1998, 1999) and SB once (1994). An integral member of the “Killer Bs” along with long-time teammate Jeff Bagwell, Biggio spent his entire career with the Astros and was part of four division winners (1997-1999, 2001) and two wild-card winners (2004-2005) making the World Series in 2005 (the first Houston team to win a pennant). At his induction, Biggio ranked in the top 25 all-time in G (16th—2,850), PA (10th—12,504), R (15th—1,844), H (21st—3,060), 2B (5th—668) and times on base (18th—4,505). Seven-time All-Star (1991-1992, 1994-1998) who won five Silver Slugger awards (1989, 1994-1995, 1997-1998) and four Gold Gloves (1994-1997). He holds the franchise record for most G, PA, R, H, TB (4,711), 2B, XBH (1,014), HBP, and times on base.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:37 PM | 1460 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 2 of 15 pages  < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 >  Last ›
   101. yest Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:17 PM (#772217)
John on Honus Wagner's plaque it says
"The Hall of Merit’s first unanimous selection!"

That would go to Cy Young
   102. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:21 PM (#772223)
That would go to Cy Young

It should have said "The Hall of Merit's first unanimous selection for a position player"

Once again, thanks!
   103. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:37 PM (#772260)
karlmagnus:

What I could do is set up links to certain websites that have the information that you have referenced. I can place it at the top of the page as a "Oh, by the way..." for visitors. I have no idea when I can set that up, but I'll keep it on my "things to research" list.
   104. karlmagnus Posted: August 02, 2004 at 09:54 PM (#772280)
John, sounds good. Once again, a very nice, clean, elegant "Plaque Room!"
   105. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 03, 2004 at 05:19 AM (#772823)
John - great job. Thank you so much.

"The problem that I have with your proposal is that this is supposed to be a tribute for the players. As with the HoF, nothing negative is added to each plaque. There is no mention of the Black Sox with Jackson, for example.

However, your proposal would be beneficial on another thread (maybe a statistical overview page?) Remind me about it after I finish updating this room."

Exactly on the negatives. Although I think with Jackson it may be appropriate to mention the scandal.

***********

We also need to think about re-structuring this somehow - maybe listing the players by position or something, with links to a page with all of the plaques for players at that position? Any other ideas?

I know we discussed this earlier, but it was awhile ago.

It'd be really cool if someone has webspace where we could create a 'page' for that player with a picture, his plaque, etc.. I'm sure we have the webspace with BTF, but I have no idea how we'd get the pages up there, etc.. I haven't used Front Page in about 2 years, etc. . . .
   106. yest Posted: August 03, 2004 at 09:07 AM (#772959)
some of the comments people made got cut off in the move if at all possible can you please bring them back.
   107. yest Posted: August 03, 2004 at 01:16 PM (#773031)
"The problem that I have with your proposal is that this is supposed to be a tribute for the players. As with the HoF, nothing negative is added to each plaque. There is no mention of the Black Sox with Jackson, for example.

on Ross Barnes plaque it says
Injuries and the changing of the fair-foul rule shortened his career (the % of responsibility for each is open to debate)
that sounds negitive to me
   108. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 01:53 PM (#773067)
on Ross Barnes plaque it says
Injuries and the changing of the fair-foul rule shortened his career (the % of responsibility for each is open to debate)
that sounds negitive to me


Somewhat true, but I didn't write that one up to begin with. The comments are not really disparaging him, though I admit it is a grey area.

some of the comments people made got cut off in the move if at all possible can you please bring them back.

If I can, I will.

We also need to think about re-structuring this somehow - maybe listing the players by position or something, with links to a page with all of the plaques for players at that position? Any other ideas?

I can take a look at that, Joe.

Although I think with Jackson it may be appropriate to mention the scandal.

Since I'm not particularly forgiving of Jackson for the Blacksox scandal, it wouldn't bother me in the least mentioning it. However, it does set a precedent that may upset others here. Whatever you decide, Joe, is fine with me.
   109. DavidFoss Posted: August 03, 2004 at 03:10 PM (#773173)
We also need to think about re-structuring this somehow - maybe listing the players by position or something, with links to a page with all of the plaques for players at that position? Any other ideas?


My suggestion back then was to have a alpabetized list of "links" at the top of the page. Something that would replace the "current roster"... something in which all the names would appear on one page. Clicking on a player's link would then send you to that players plaque... which for starters could just point down the same page to the plaque. Each plaque might need a "return to top" link to make navigation a little easier.
   110. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 05:21 PM (#773423)
New plaque viewing.
   111. karlmagnus Posted: August 03, 2004 at 05:37 PM (#773447)
Nice, John. was the Brooklyn Atlantics hat interesting? Crickets of that era or a little earlier played in top hats, which must have had quite an impact on a number of aspects of the game.
   112. karlmagnus Posted: August 03, 2004 at 05:37 PM (#773449)
(try to make sense!) Nice, John. was the Brooklyn Atlantics hat interesting? Cricketers of that era or a little earlier played in top hats, which must have had quite an impact on a number of aspects of the game.
   113. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:08 PM (#773500)
was the Brooklyn Atlantics hat interesting?

I have no idea. I'm assuming it was similar to the Knickerbocker's hat, but that's just a guess on my part.
   114. DavidFoss Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:22 PM (#773519)
What was the Knickerbocker's hat like? MWright's book doesn't have any photos. Nemec has team photos from the early NL... I'll have to check and see if I can find out what Pearce looked like.
   115. PhillyBooster Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:22 PM (#773521)
Great job!

Though nicknamed “Home Run” for two game-inning clouts against the Giants in the 1911 World Series, the lefty batter also made many more of them during the “Deadball Era.”

Game-ending?
   116. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:54 PM (#773590)
Game-ending?

Yup. I will correct shortly. Thanks!
   117. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 03, 2004 at 06:56 PM (#773596)
Actually, it was "game-winning." The "w" got knocked off for some reason.

Corrected!
   118. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 12:54 AM (#774694)
Updated Cap Standings for 1931:

1. Giants - 8 (Connor, Davis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, Sutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
4T. Phillies - 4 (Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Indians - 3 (Flick, JJackson, Lajoie)
7T. Athletics - 2 (FBaker, Plank)
7T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
7T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 1 (Pearce, Start)
7T. Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, Young)
7T. Pirates - 2 (Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 1 (HRJohnson)
13T.Cardinals - 1 (Caruthers)
13T.Chicago American Giants - 1 - (PHill)
13T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
13T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
13T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
13T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
13T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
13T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
13T.Reds - 1 (McPhee)
13T.Tigers - 1 (Crawford)
13T.White Sox - 1 (Walsh)
   119. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 01:02 AM (#774736)
Oops... the Atlantics are moved up into the right rank, but it should read "2" by their name.
   120. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 02:08 AM (#775108)
I tried doing a search to see what caps looked like in the 1860s. John mentioned the Knickerbocker hat of 1849, which was a straw hat. For the next twenty years though, teams wore a variety of caps. From jockey caps, to pillbox caps, to baseball-like cap.

From what I can see, the non-pillbox baseball-caps were a bit baggier on top with a shorter brim. Perhaps representative of the era is a photo of the 1868 Cincinnati Red Stockings is here. They were the first team to wear knickers, though. The knickers showed off their red stockings.

Trying to find a picture of Pearce somewhere online. Nemec's 19th Century encyclopedia has a lithograph of the 1873 Atlantics. Pearce has a bushy mustache (though not as bushy as others from this era). That's the best I can find right now.
   121. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 04, 2004 at 06:01 AM (#775464)
I've repaired all the old comments up to #89. Beyond that point, I can't find the rest of them on the Internet.
   122. DanG Posted: August 04, 2004 at 02:17 PM (#775610)
Try this link for pictures

http://www.bluecurl.com/ncbbp/index.htm
   123. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 03:15 PM (#775702)
Thanks Dan!

Here are the 1865 Atlantics -- pic

Left to right: Frank Norton, Sid Smith, Dickey Pearce, Joe Start, Pete O'Brien (not in uniform), Charles Smith, Jack Chapman, John Galvin, Fred Crane (above Galvin), Tom Pratt.

Another one :
pic2
   124. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 04, 2004 at 03:30 PM (#775717)
Cool pictures!

Pearce appears thinner there than he does in the SABR 19th century book. Maybe he wasn't always that pudgy.

Start also has much more hair than I have seen him with.

And we now know what the caps for the Atlantics looked like now.
   125. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 03:50 PM (#775732)
And we now know what the caps for the Atlantics looked like now.

:-) We do? Most of the photos were with the caps not in fram unfortunately.

Some more pictures below. The second one was a lithograph made in the early 1900s based on some old photos. The caps look white, but the details are not good. Pearce and Start images are on the Atlantics bench (their faces in the 1900s were taken from old photos).

1866 Atlantics & Athletics

Atlantics batting vs the Mutuals in 1865
   126. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 04, 2004 at 03:58 PM (#775747)
:-) We do? Most of the photos were with the caps not in fram unfortunately.

There were a few on the floor from the first group picture, David.
   127. DavidFoss Posted: August 04, 2004 at 04:04 PM (#775763)
Ah... good eye, thanks... those match the in-game painting. I was looking contemporary photographic verification of that painting.
   128. jhwinfrey Posted: August 04, 2004 at 10:11 PM (#776407)
More pictures... these from the Library of Congress's baseball card collection:
Library of Congress

They cover the years 1887-1914 and include pictures of Cy Young, King Kelly, Deacon White, John Ward, Kid Nichols, and many others.
   129. karlmagnus Posted: August 04, 2004 at 11:07 PM (#776496)
Interesting that they have both pitching and batting cards for Parisian Bob. Monte Ward's the only other case of that I could find, though the collection doesn't include Ruth (for which both, dating from different years, must exist.)
   130. jhwinfrey Posted: August 05, 2004 at 04:20 PM (#778673)
Yes, the card of Caruthers with the bat in his hands is pretty cool. I also like the Willie Keeler cards that show his bunting stance.
   131. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: August 06, 2004 at 05:00 PM (#781223)
I don't recall now which thread it was in, but someone was looking for a picture of Ross Barnes online. There's one at this link

http://www.cycleback.com/1800s/Image423.jpg
   132. yest Posted: August 06, 2004 at 10:19 PM (#781996)
Any other ideas?
how abought a link from a year's ballot discusion thread to the ballot ,results and the previous and next years ballot
   133. Paul Wendt Posted: August 10, 2004 at 02:50 PM (#787661)
Correction: Jimmy Collins didn't play for a Temple Cup winner (1897).

Nit: There were two St Louis NA 1875 clubs, the Browns and Reds or Brown Stockings and Red Stockings. Pud Galvin and Dicky Pearce both played for the Browns.

Interesting: Bob Caruthers was(is?) two-time STATS MVP and two-time Win Shares MVP --in four different seasons!
   134. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 10, 2004 at 02:59 PM (#787678)
Correction: Jimmy Collins didn't play for a Temple Cup winner (1897).

100% correct, Paul. Will correct.

Nit: There were two St Louis NA 1875 clubs, the Browns and Reds or Brown Stockings and Red Stockings. Pud Galvin and Dicky Pearce both played for the Browns.

I'll fix that, too.
   135. PhillyBooster Posted: August 10, 2004 at 03:09 PM (#787691)
Sheckard: The left-handed slugger had impressive power, a remarkable knowledge of the strike zone and was as speedy as the best of them.

I agree that Sheckard walked a lot, but without career strikeout totals, I think "remarkable knowledge" is going a little far. In 1912, Sheckard led the National League in walks, and was second for most strikeouts. Is that indicative of someone with remarkable knowledge of the strike zone, or someone who just doesn't swing at anything anywhere near the corner?

In other words, cover up the "strikeout" totals with one hand, and you might reach the same conclusion about Reggie Jackson!
   136. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 10, 2004 at 03:23 PM (#787712)
In other words, cover up the "strikeout" totals with one hand, and you might reach the same conclusion about Reggie Jackson!

Except Jackson was never the walking machine that Sheckard was for his era, so his plaque wouldn't include that from me.

I agree that Sheckard walked a lot, but without career strikeout totals, I think "remarkable knowledge" is going a little far.

"Remarkable knowledge of the strike zone" is just another way of saying "he walked a lot." Sheckard fit that to a T.

I'm trying not to repeat myself with each plaque. Ain't easy! :-)
   137. DanG Posted: August 10, 2004 at 05:26 PM (#787909)
John:

Suggestions for additional "slash" positions.

Anson 3B
Barnes SS
Ewing 1B
Kelley CF
McVey RF
Wagner RF
Walsh RP
   138. DanG Posted: August 10, 2004 at 05:36 PM (#787926)
A couple more.

Crawford CF
Richardson change OF to LF
Sutton delete 1B
   139. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 10, 2004 at 05:40 PM (#787935)
Suggestions for additional "slash" positions.

Anson 3B
Barnes SS
Ewing 1B
Kelley CF
McVey RF
Wagner RF
Walsh RP


I agree. I've updated a few myself the past week (Sutton and Brown come to mind), but the ones that you pointed out need to be corrected, too. Thanks!
   140. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 10, 2004 at 05:48 PM (#787952)
Crawford CF
Richardson change OF to LF
Sutton delete 1B


I agree with Crawford and Richardson, but Sutton was arguably the best first baseman in 1876 so that should stay, IMO.
   141. DanG Posted: August 10, 2004 at 06:09 PM (#787987)
I agree with Crawford and Richardson, but Sutton was arguably the best first baseman in 1876 so that should stay, IMO.

Well, except he didn't even play half his team's games at the position, only 29 out of 60 that year. And only 3 other games at 1B in the rest of his career.
   142. yest Posted: August 10, 2004 at 08:56 PM (#788206)
maybe you should add CF to George Davis's plaque playing 243 games there and leading the NL in outfield assists in 1890
   143. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 11, 2004 at 12:45 AM (#788709)
maybe you should add CF to George Davis's plaque playing 243 games there and leading the NL in outfield assists in 1890

Good suggestion, yest.

Well, except he didn't even play half his team's games at the position, only 29 out of 60 that year. And only 3 other games at 1B in the rest of his career.

But that's 29 games out of 60 scheduled games for that season, not 29 games out of 162. There was a lot more value then it appears at first glance.

I admit that it's debatable, but I don't think it will hurt anything if I keep it there. But I'll compromise with you: I won't have 1B in bold. How about that?
   144. yest Posted: August 11, 2004 at 02:32 AM (#789180)
some more fielding additions
1B Ed Delahanty played 271 games there
RF/1B Deacon White played 149 games in right and 133 at first
3B Bill Dahlen played 223 games there
RF/3B Buck Ewing played 193 games in right and 127 at third
3B Roger Connor played 111 games there including getting the most DP in 1880
1B/3B Honus Wagner played 248 games at first 209 at third
   145. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:59 AM (#789457)
Cool pictures!

Regarding slashes, I'm not a big fan of them.

I think the player should be listed by the main position he played, unless he played like 25% (guesstimate) of his career there, including some prime years. Cal Ripken isn't a SS/3B, for example.

I don't think Sutton should be listed as a 3B/SS/1B. He was a 3B. He played parts of a couple of years at SS, but that's not what he was if you catch my drift . . . just my $.02.
   146. DanG Posted: August 11, 2004 at 01:04 PM (#789562)
I agree with Joe. If you're going to list Sutton at 1B, that sets a precedent that everyone who played more than a half season at a position should have it listed. IMO, that's unreasonable.

I would modify Joe's guideline to say 25% of his career OR 2.5 full seasons worth of games (e.g., 385 games for players in the 154-game season era) OR list a second position if less then 50% of career was played at one position.
   147. Rick A. Posted: August 11, 2004 at 04:30 PM (#789871)
I also agree with Joe. Slashes makes it look like a player never settled in to a position. Especially if you have a player with 3 or more positions listed.

I would modify Joe's guideline to say 25% of his career OR 2.5 full seasons worth of games

This sounds like a good idea to determine if a player should be a slash.
   148. PhillyBooster Posted: August 11, 2004 at 04:54 PM (#789919)
Except that Joe's sole example was Ripken, who played 675 games at third. If the purpose is to recognize that Ripken WAS a shortstop, then the modification would generally undercut the original intent (Ripken played 77% of his games at short, and still over 4 seasons-worth of games at third.)

My suggestion would be stricter: 1 position if player played 2/3 or more games at that position.

Two positions IF fewer than 2/3 at any single position and player had at least 50% of the games at his first position at his second position (e.g., if Player had 62% of his games at 3B, add a second position only if player also had at least 31% of his games at that second position.)

Exception for outfielders: If a player had more than 2/3 of his games in the outfield, only list the primary outfield position (e.g., if Player had 50% CF, 20% LF, 30% 1B, list only CF, because he had more than 2/3 of his games in the outfield.)
   149. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 11, 2004 at 05:24 PM (#789988)
Why don't we keep the slashes, but keep the secondary positions without the bold type? For example, Ripken would have SS on his plaque, but also 3B. That way, anyone viewing the Plaque Room would know right away which position Ripken had the most value at. If a player's primary position was won by plurality, then there could be multiple positions in bold type (Stovey comes to mind).
   150. PhillyBooster Posted: August 11, 2004 at 05:59 PM (#790058)
That works for me. Plain-type, parentheses, smaller font.

Anything that doesn't make it look like

Mordecai Brown - 1925 - SP/RP

had the same sort of career as

Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.
   151. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:09 PM (#790080)
Anything that doesn't make it look like

Mordecai Brown - 1925 - SP/RP

had the same sort of career as

Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.


Agreed.

BTW, I got the inspiration for the different fonts from Riley's The Biographical Encyclopedia of the Negro Baseball Leagues.
   152. DavidFoss Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:12 PM (#790085)
For what its worth, my two cents. I like the simpler positional labels for the bold part, as Joe suggested.

More information is never bad, though. The full positional percentage split (by season or by game) could be listed in the text of the plaque... or its own line below the hat distinction.
   153. yest Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:39 PM (#790128)
For what its worth, I agree with John on this one

by the way instead of
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - SP/RP.
shouldn't it be
Dennis Eckersley - 2004 - RP/SP.
   154. PhillyBooster Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:50 PM (#790146)
Well, that depends on how you come down on my Hiller/Kaat question on the Discussion thread.

Eckersley pitched 75% of his innings as a starter, but 2/3 of his games in relief.
   155. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 11, 2004 at 06:55 PM (#790158)
Eckersley pitched 75% of his innings as a starter, but 2/3 of his games in relief.

For me, it depends on value. Eck was a very good starter, but a monster closer.

I'm with yest on this one.
   156. jimd Posted: August 12, 2004 at 12:35 AM (#790875)
New WARP-1 split's Eck's value 50/50, 65.3 WARP-1 as a starter, 65.3 WARP-1 as a closer.
   157. PhillyBooster Posted: August 12, 2004 at 04:01 PM (#792272)
Not to pile more random stats onto the already information-laden plaques, but I just noticed that Bob Caruthers appears to be the All-Time leader in World Series Innings Pitched (his 147.0 is one more than "official" leader Whitey Ford).

Thought that might be worth adding.
   158. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 14, 2004 at 02:46 AM (#796659)
Not to pile more random stats onto the already information-laden plaques, but I just noticed that Bob Caruthers appears to be the All-Time leader in World Series Innings Pitched (his 147.0 is one more than "official" leader Whitey Ford).

I have now made mention of that fact for you, Matt, but only that he appeared in more postseason innings than any other pitcher. Performing in a 19th century WS wasn't really the same thing as pitching in a "real" WS, but I agree there should be mention of his performance. Is this OK with everybody?

I also have bold type for primary positions now (as opposed to secondary ones). If there are any problems concerning this, please let me know.
   159. PhillyBooster Posted: August 14, 2004 at 03:38 AM (#796883)
That works for me.
   160. yest Posted: August 15, 2004 at 07:59 AM (#798544)
on Bid McPhee's plaque is says
he retired with many of the career records for second basemen (including the major league records for most putouts for a second baseman (529) in 1886 and the career record for fielding average (.978)).
maybe we should add most career assists (6905), career double plays (1186), and career putouts (6545) a record which he still holds.
by the way can you delete the extra )) one

also maybe we should add to Al Spalding’s plaque that he had the most wins every year from 1871-1876

on Ezra Sutton’s plaque it says
“The greatest third baseman of the 19th Century. “
can you change that to
arguably the greatest third baseman of the 19th Century
some of us feel it was Williamson, or McGraw ext.

Also can you add these positions to Monte Ward’s plaque
2B played 491 games there having the most assists in 1893
CF played 110 games there
RF played 101 games there

and to Jessie Burkett’s plaque
RF played 115 games there

and to Sherry Magee’s plaque
CF played 140 games there
1B played 136 games there
RF played 125 games there

and to Joe Jackson’s plaque
CF played 145 games there

and to Elmer Flick’s plaque
CF played 127 games there

and to Cap Anson’s plaque
C played 105 games there

and to Jim O'Rourke's plaque
3B played 148 games there

and to Paul Hines’s plaque
1B played 194 games there

and to Harry Stovey’s plaque
RF played 251 games there
CF played 176 games there

and to Ed Delahanty’s plaque
CF played 250 games there
2B played 131 games there

and to Billy Hamilton’s plaque
RF played 164 games there

and to Sam Crawford’s plaque
1B played 151 games there
LF played 134 games there

and to Joe Kelley’s plaque
1B played 291 games there

and to Napoleon Lajoie’s plaque
1B played 286 games there

maybe to King Kelly’s plaque
3B played 96 games there
SS played 90 games there

maybe to George Gore ’s plaque
LF played 96 games there

and to Joe McGinnity’s plaque maybe RP
started 381 out of 465 games and 24 saves

and to Eddie Plank’s plaque maybe RP
started 529 out of 623 games and 23 saves

and to Christy Mathewson’s plaque maybe RP
started 551 out of 635 games and 28 saves

and to Kid Nichols’s plaque maybe RP
started 551 out of 635 games and 17 saves

and to Cy Young’s plaque maybe RP
started 815 out of 906 games and 17 saves
   161. karlmagnus Posted: August 15, 2004 at 12:57 PM (#798558)
John, pitching in a 19th century world series was absolutely the same as pitching in a "real" world series, and much more competitive than the 50s yawners Ford participated in, which the Yankees always won (I can barely stay awake thinking about them!) I didn't know that Caruthers record, but it should OF COURSE be on his plaque, particularly as I would think Ford is a pretty marginal HOMer when we get to that point. Caruthers was MUCH better, and would have given Mickey Mantle a close run for his money with the bat, too!
   162. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 15, 2004 at 02:07 PM (#798571)
karlmagnus:

I meant that the "World Series" of the 19th century wasn't exactly the same as the "World Series" that we are familar with. If you read books concerning the 19th century version, players didn't go all out and weren't as motivated as later on. They were somewhat haphazard events. If you can find a baseball historian that would place a 1880s World Series or the Temple Cup championships of the 1890s on the same footing as one earned by the White Elephants, Gashouse Gang or Murderers Row, please let me know.

I did add to his plaque a few days ago that he had the most postseason innings by any 19th century pitcher, so I agree that it should have been mentioned earlier and was an error on my part. Besides, we know it would be an impossibility for Caruthers to have achieved the same amount of innings during the fifties (unless he pitched in every World Series of the fifties) as he did with the Browns.

Since I am not a dictator here (that would be Joe :-), if a majority of our voters want me to add that Caruthers achievement was better than Ford's, I'll do it. But I seriously doubt that will happen.

Caruthers was MUCH better, and would have given Mickey Mantle a close run for his money with the bat, too!

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, karlmagnus. :-) I will say that, if I had to do it over again, Caruthers would have made the bottom of the top ten of my ballot a few "years" ago (instead of #13), so I think I'm in good standing as a FOBC now. :-)

As for Ford, his record appears substantial enough for the HoM, IMO.
   163. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 15, 2004 at 02:10 PM (#798572)
yest:

I'll look over and should implement most, if not all, of your suggestions sometime this week.
   164. DavidFoss Posted: August 15, 2004 at 03:34 PM (#798614)
Bill James' book on baseball managers has some interesting stuff in there on pitcher usage. It was quite common to have pitchers used as "starter-relievers" until WWII. This just meant that top starters would be available for between-starts work in the late innings of close games if necessary. Walsh, McGinnity, Grove, Hubbell, Dean, Hoyt, Nichols & Bender all led the league in saves (probably more, too).

In my opinion, there's a difference between this type of relief pitcher and the modern type. My opinion right now is that its a bit misleading to list Lefty Grove as a SP/RP? Now a guy like Firpo Marbury also started quite a bit, so I'm not sure how to draw the line. GF greater than GS ? GS less than ).5*G?

Anyhow, just thought I'd mention this before we change most post-1893 pitchers from SP to SP/RP.
   165. karlmagnus Posted: August 15, 2004 at 03:34 PM (#798616)
Temple Cup's a bit different -- we know that was largely an exhibition, because of the difficulty of deciding who won overall if the #2 team in the league won the Temple Cup. But there were clear economic resons why both teams would have wanted to win an AA/NL World Series, as its record in the World Series was a great part of what made the AA credible to fans.

Caruthers pitched in the WS of 1885/86/87/89; those appearances are a substantial part of his record (5% of his IP) against (by definition) the strongest NL franchise, at an ERA+, eyeballing it, of about 148 (OK only 7-8, but his teams' record was 15-21, so his .467 beats the teams' .417 handily).

All the niggles about strength of competition must surely fall away; these games are an additional substantial building block in his HOM case. I grant you, his OPS+ batting was only about 90; these were low scoring games (so the ERA+, which compares with his league for the whole year, may be a little inflated and the OPS+ suppressed.) But if you add his WS ERA+ and his WS OPS+ you get 238, only a bit below his lifetime 258, which I would think second in postseason play only to Ruth.

Commissioner's decision is final, but if Caruthers holds the record, shouldn't we say so? It's like Maris in '61 -- by all means put an asterisk, if you must, but the record's still valid.

Ford, incidentally, on second look is probably safely the right side of borderline, although by no means a slam dunk because of his team's strength throughout his career.
   166. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 15, 2004 at 04:32 PM (#798657)
Ford, incidentally, on second look is probably safely the right side of borderline, although by no means a slam dunk because of his team's strength throughout his career.

He did lose a few years to military service, so some compensation, IMO, is in order. He most certainly would have won over 250 games if he had pitched in 1951 and '52. At this time, I have him as the second best pitcher of the fifties, FWIW.

The strength of the Yankees obviously was an advantage that needs to be corrected against him.

Commissioner's decision is final, but if Caruthers holds the record, shouldn't we say so? It's like Maris in '61 -- by all means put an asterisk, if you must, but the record's still valid.

First of all, I don't believe in asterisks.

Second of all, Matt's mention of Caruther's "record" is the first time I have ever heard of it. I think this is less an error of omission from the record books than that the majority of baseball historians don't put too much weight on the series from the 1880s. Is this fair? I'm not a 100% sure. I do know that if I add to Caruther's plaque that he had the most innings of any pitcher during World Series competition, many people visiting the Plaque Room are going to leave scratching their heads.

In my opinion, there's a difference between this type of relief pitcher and the modern type.

I think it would be misleading, David, if the line was SP/Closer or SP/Fireman for a Brown or Walsh. I also agree their are differences in relief pitching and none of the HoM starters pre-Wilhelm should have RP in bold type, but I think an RP without bold type is appropriate. I don't hold strong opinions on this subject, however.
   167. EricC Posted: August 15, 2004 at 07:45 PM (#799028)
I think this is less an error of omission from the record books than that the majority of baseball historians don't put too much weight on the series from the 1880s. Is this fair?

Total attendence for 1884-1890 NL-AA World Series games:

1884: 3800 (3 games)
1885: 13200 (7 games)
1886: 46000 (6 games)
1887: 51455 (15 games)
1888: 42310 (10 games)
1889: 47666 (9 games)
1890: 13910 (7 games)

Make of that what you will. I'd be inclined to accept these as legitimite World Series, as the NL and AA recognized each other as major leagues. The problem with Caruthers' record for most World Series innings pitched, as I see it, is that this includes games 13 and 15 of the 1887 Series, which he pitched after the series champion was already decided. Much like the issue of whether walks in 1887 should be counted as hits, should these count as championship series games or as exhibition games?
   168. DavidFoss Posted: August 15, 2004 at 10:11 PM (#799506)
I don't hold strong opinions on this subject, however.


No strong feelings here either, John. Just a general heads up. A large fraction of starting pitchers from 1893-1940 were actually "starter-relievers". Its just the way pitchers were using during this time span. Unlike today, pitchers were available on their "off-days" if needed.
   169. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 15, 2004 at 11:18 PM (#799611)
Make of that what you will. I'd be inclined to accept these as legitimite World Series, as the NL and AA recognized each other as major leagues.

Okay, I'll buy that. How about the Temple Cup games?

The problem with Caruthers' record for most World Series innings pitched, as I see it, is that this includes games 13 and 15 of the 1887 Series, which he pitched after the series champion was already decided. Much like the issue of whether walks in 1887 should be counted as hits, should these count as championship series games or as exhibition games?

I would say probably exhibition games, but I'd like to get some more feedback on this issue before I make up my mind.

A large fraction of starting pitchers from 1893-1940 were actually "starter-relievers". Its just the way pitchers were using during this time span. Unlike today, pitchers were available on their "off-days" if needed.

I'm leaning toward removing the RP on the plaques, but should there be some type of percentage of relief innings pitched (or some other yardstick) so that a pitcher could receive recognition for their relief work?
   170. karlmagnus Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:12 AM (#799835)
Late season games when the pennant's been decided get counted in people's stats, so why not late games of the 1887 World Series? I agree 15 games is weird, but as I said, the credibility of the AA (or of the NL, if the AA had consistently walloped it) appears to have depended very heavily on these games and their results -- presumably even those played after the series has been decided -- 9-6 is a very different result to 13-2.
   171. Howie Menckel Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:33 AM (#799854)
I'd generally argue against 'RP' pre-1940, for the reasons stated. Not a huge deal, though.
   172. Brent Posted: August 16, 2004 at 02:33 AM (#799855)
FWIW, I like John's wording ("appeared in more postseason innings than any other 19th century pitcher"). When we look at the team records of the Baltimore Orioles, we don't generally mix in the 1890s vintage in with the modern club because we recognize that they were different major league teams. Similarly, the NL-AA series was a legitimate World Series, but it wasn't part of the modern Series that began in 1903, so I'd vote for keeping the records separate. Also, IMO, the Temple Cup is an odd hybrid that is better described as "postseason" than as a World Series.
   173. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 18, 2004 at 02:30 PM (#803910)
The new plaques are ready for viewing.

BTW, I have the Philadelphia Giants for Foster's cap, not the Chicago American Giants. The latter team was obviously more important for Foster as manager and administrator, but the former (I believe) was more important for Foster as a pitcher. Comments?
   174. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 22, 2004 at 07:06 AM (#812217)
"on Ezra Sutton’s plaque it says
“The greatest third baseman of the 19th Century. “
can you change that to
arguably the greatest third baseman of the 19th Century
some of us feel it was Williamson, or McGraw ext."

Yest - we elected Sutton over 20 years ago and Williamson/McGraw haven't sniffed election. I think it's safe to say the group as a whole agrees that Sutton was easily the greatest 3B of the 19th Century.

FWIW - I don't like the slashes, even with Bold/not bold. But if that's what everyone wants, so be it, I can live with it. I feel the plaques are a general summary of the high points of the player's career, not a complete and total resume. They should give a quick overview, they don't need to be all-inclusive.
   175. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 22, 2004 at 07:08 AM (#812218)
On Ford, don't forget he also was held back to pitch a greater proportion of his innings vs. the best teams in the league in any given season. I think that more than offsets any advantage he gets from his teammates. Ford was one of the reasons they dominated, not really a beneficiary of that domination, at first glance anyway.
   176. yest Posted: September 01, 2004 at 12:17 AM (#829915)
John not meaning to be a pest but what a bought my additions
   177. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 01, 2004 at 12:24 AM (#829955)
John not meaning to be a pest but what a bought my additions

It's now on my "to do" list for this week, yest. Sorry about that. I did get some of your earlier ones though.
   178. DavidFoss Posted: September 01, 2004 at 01:13 AM (#830164)
I was away from my files after the last election, so here is a 2 year update:

1933 Cap Standings:

1. Giants - 8 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, Sutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
4T. Phillies - 4 (Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Indians - 3 (Flick, JJackson, Lajoie)
7T. Athletics - 2 (FBaker, Plank)
7T. Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
7T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
7T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
7T. Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, Young)
7T. Pirates - 2 (Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Cardinals - 1 (Caruthers)
14T.Chicago American Giants - 1 - (PHill)
14T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
14T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
14T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
14T.Dodgers - 1 (Wheat)
14T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
14T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
14T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
14T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
14T.Reds - 1 (McPhee)
14T.Tigers - 1 (Crawford)
14T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
14T.White Sox - 1 (Walsh)
   179. DavidFoss Posted: September 01, 2004 at 01:15 AM (#830178)
Brooklyn Royal Giants are the first Negro League team with multiple caps.

1933 inductees are the first caps for Twins & Dodgers. A little preview of the 1965 World Series.
   180. favre Posted: September 01, 2004 at 09:43 PM (#831664)
It's nice to finally indcut someone wearing a Dodger cap. There's already too many damn Giants in the Hall...:]
   181. Rick A. Posted: September 01, 2004 at 10:59 PM (#831752)
It's nice to finally indcut someone wearing a Dodger cap. There's already too many damn Giants in the Hall...:]

Things will probably improve for the Dodgers in from the 50's on, but I doubt they'll ever catch the Giants, who will continue to have some pretty amazing players.
   182. yest Posted: September 01, 2004 at 11:06 PM (#831764)
It's nice to finally indcut someone wearing a Dodger cap. There's already too many damn Giants in the Hall
what a bought the poor yankees with none
   183. Rick A. Posted: September 01, 2004 at 11:17 PM (#831788)
Since it's been brought up, which team do you think will have the most HOMers? The Giants are in a good position, and have plenty of great players coming. (Mays, Bonds, Marichal, McCovey)
Yankees don't have anyone yet, but they are the dominant team coming up. (Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, etc.)
Dodgers have the great 50's and '60's teams (Snider, Campanella, Koufax, J. Robinson). Any other contenders?

I think the Yanks will give the Giants a run for the money, but the Giants hang on for the victory.
   184. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 01, 2004 at 11:36 PM (#831833)
Things will probably improve for the Dodgers in from the 50's on, but I doubt they'll ever catch the Giants, who will continue to have some pretty amazing players.

Let's look at this.

Dodger definites will be: J. Robinson, Roy Campanella, Duke Snider, Sandy Koufax, Mike Piazza, Pee Wee Reese (except for Yest :-)

Giant definites are: Willie Mays, Willie McCovey, Barry Bonds, Juan Marichal, Gaylord Perry, Carl Hubbell, Mel Ott

Is Mize a Card or Giant? If you give him WWII credit, I would have to lean toward the Giants. He's a definite either way.

How about Frisch? He's a definite, too.

Wilhelm? I think he's a definite.

Borderline Dodgers are: Don Drysdale (looks good in my book), Maury Wills, Dazzy Vance, Don Sutton, Don Newcombe, Orel Hershiser

Borderline Giants are: Orlando Cepeda, Bill Terry, Will Clark, George Van Haltren, Larry Doyle, Darrell Evans, Monte Irvin, Bobby Bonds

I think Rick is right.
   185. OCF Posted: September 01, 2004 at 11:56 PM (#831908)
Borderline Giants are: Orlando Cepeda

I know, that's the team he spent the most time playing for. But to me, Cepeda is always the cleanup hitter for the '67-'68 Cardinals. We've got some good candidates coming up: Honrsby, Musial, Boyer, Gibson, Ted Simmons, Ozzie. Arguments from opposite ends of the peak-career divide for Dean and Brock. Is McGwire's cap A's or Cardinals? Some that I'm not thinking of at the moment.
   186. yest Posted: September 02, 2004 at 12:12 AM (#831957)
Dodger definites will be:
J. Robinson, with out including his Negroe league career his career is to short for me(we are just inluding his playing)with his Negroe League career included i'm not sure
Roy Campanella, I agree here
Duke Snider, I agree here but I'm not to sure everybody else does
Sandy Koufax, I agree here but some might think 6 years is too little
Mike Piazza, I'll wait till he retires my opinion could still move on him
Pee Wee Reese (except for Yest :-) how did you know:,)
Giant definites are:
Willie Mays, I agree
Willie McCovey, I agree
Barry Bonds, I wouldn't put him in but were not talking a bought that just yet:,)
Juan Marichal, I agree
Gaylord Perry, I agree some might hold the spitter against him
Carl Hubbell, I agree
Mel Ott I agree
   187. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 02, 2004 at 12:23 AM (#832013)
Barry Bonds, I wouldn't put him in but were not talking a bought that just yet:,)

But since you piqued our interest...

Mike Piazza, I'll wait till he retires my opinion could still move on him

Aw, jeez!

Is McGwire's cap A's or Cardinals?

There is no way that McGwire should go in the HoM with a Cards cap.

But to me, Cepeda is always the cleanup hitter for the '67-'68 Cardinals.

Understandable, but he's really a Giant.
   188. yest Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:16 AM (#832300)
Barry Bonds, I wouldn't put him in but were not talking a bought that just yet:,)

But since you piqued our interest...


steroids = boycott
   189. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:23 AM (#832342)
steroids = boycott

Need proof before I even think of that. Since you can get that large without them, I don't see what the big deal is anyway.
   190. DavidFoss Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:54 AM (#832506)
J. Robinson, with out including his Negroe league career his career is to short for me(we are just inluding his playing)with his Negroe League career included i'm not sure

Jackie Robinson is very underrated as a player. Not many 2B can top his 1949-54 peak. I'd vote for him if he was white.

The obvious bonus year of 1946 when he had to play in Montreal. The late start (28) due to the color barrier. Being the first to break the color barrier... That stuff pushes him way up the list, but his actual MLB playing numbers are superb.

We'll talk more about it in 1963. :-)
   191. yest Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:56 AM (#832515)
Since I don't want to turn this to another steroid thread (there are too many on what used to be cluch hits)I'll try to be brief. I'm not 100 percent convinced he's on it (but I'm at least 95 percent sure) but since I see the HoM or for that matter the HoF as a honor I wouldn't put a player in unless I'm quite sure they belong. For example if their was a major leaguer who I wasn't quite sure they belong because of their stats I wouldn't put them in so to here. As far as punishing him by kicking him out of baseball I would need proof for that. As far as why I see it as a reason to put kick someone out of baseball for being on steroids I see it as something that destroys the integrity of the game (similer to betting on the game) by destroying the fair play of the game which as far as baseball is conserned is the worst posable thing a player can do. One of the reasons I see this as different from the spitball(which I think should be legal), corked bat, stealing signs ext. because there no risk to a players and a terrible influance on younger fans and players.
   192. Rick A. Posted: September 02, 2004 at 02:32 AM (#832696)
<I think the Yanks will give the Giants a run for the money, but the Giants hang on for the victory.</i>

You know, I wrote this, but thinking about it now, I just can't see the Yanks getting that close to the Giants. With a 8-0 lead already and at least 7 definites (from John's list) for the Giants, I'm having a hard time coming up with enough definites for the Yanks.

Off the top of my head
Definites: Ruth, DiMaggio, Mantle, Gehrig, Berra, Dickey, Ford, Gossage

Maybes: Lazzeri, Hoyt, Ruffing, Rizzuto, Mattingly, Guidry, Nettles

Probably Nots: Maris, Munson

Definites but might go to other teams: Reggie, Winfield
   193. jimd Posted: September 02, 2004 at 02:55 AM (#832728)
Re: Hats.

I would point out that if one did "fractional hats" (splitting the hat proportional to the number of seasons as a regular by the player with that team), the Braves are ahead roughly 6.5 to 6.1 over the Giants. The Braves have lost a number of close calls over the years (White, Clarkson, Hamilton, Collins though they did win O'Rourke).
   194. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: September 02, 2004 at 10:02 AM (#832973)
Interesting tidbit I just noticed: Of the 16 active major league franchises, the Yankees are the only one with a HoMer.

27 other franchises had an all-time great finish his career and get voted in before the Yankees had one. Talk about getting a late start!
   195. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:21 PM (#833017)
Definites but might go to other teams: Reggie, Winfield

They should get an A's and Padres hat respectively, but I know Joe wants a Yank cap on Jackson (he's wrong, of course :-).
   196. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:30 PM (#833021)
because there no risk to a players and a terrible influance on younger fans and players.

This would be the only reason to outlaw steroids. Of course, MLB is more worried about records being destroyed than with health issues.

Again, if I can bulk up without them, except for health concerns, why ban them? It may take a little longer without the 'roids, but I could build myself up to Bond's level. He's no where near Mr. Universe level. Therefore (for HoM purposes), Bonds is in Lip Pike territory when it comes to these whispers. I choose to ignore these whispers until proof rolls in as happened with the Blacksox, Hal Chase, etc.
   197. karlmagnus Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:38 PM (#833027)
If Bonds was marginal, like Pike, one might round down. But he isn't marginal.
   198. PhillyBooster Posted: September 02, 2004 at 01:53 PM (#833035)
How about the "original 16" team with the FEWEST inductees.

So far, the Browns/Orioles look like a early non-favorite to. Only Bobby Wallace is in, and after the obvious (B.Robison, C.Ripken, J.Palmer, E.Murray) and those with ambiguous hats (which of Palmiero, F.Robinson, Hoyt Wilhelm, Mussina would go in as an Oriole?) it's quite a drop to the marginals (Sisler, Singleton?)
   199. OCF Posted: September 02, 2004 at 04:57 PM (#833288)
Does anyone have readily available an updated list of the HOM but not HOF players so far? There's a Veteran's Committee/HOF thread going on Primer right now, and it might be fun if someone were to post that list. (I know, most of ours aren't even on the list the VC has to choose from.)

For Brown/Orioles, how about Ken Williams? Or Harlond Clift? Career's a little short, but a good third baseman isn't easy to find.
   200. DanG Posted: September 02, 2004 at 08:22 PM (#833630)
Hall of Merit members not in Hall of Fame

Deacon White
Paul Hines
George Gore
Ross Barnes
Jack Glasscock
Hardy Richardson
Ezra Sutton
Joe Start
Cal McVey
Bill Dahlen
Harry Stovey
Charlie Bennett
Grant Johnson
Frank Grant
Sherry Magee
Joe Jackson
Pete Hill
Jimmy Sheckard
Bob Caruthers
Dickey Pearce
Louis Santop

21 of the 59 members of the HoM are not in Cooperstown's hall.
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