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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 02, 2004

The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home Page

Enter here to see the players that have been immortalized in the Hall of Merit.

John Murphy was the curator of the Plaque Room and creator (with Ryan Wagman’s help) of the plaques. As of 2011 the creator of the plaques is theorioleway.

David Foss is in charge of the franchise cap standings.

Devin McCullen provides the city and state cap standings.

yest helps us out double-checking the plaques for accuracy.

The whole process is overseen by our commissioner and founder Joe Dimino.

For Hall of Meriters A-F, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters G-L, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters M-R, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters S-Z, please click here.

The current roster (246 total) includes (in alphabetical order for each position):

Pitchers (66): Pete Alexander+, Kevin Brown+, Bert Blyleven+, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown+, Jim Bunning+, Steve Carlton+, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson+, Roger Clemens+**, Stan Coveleski, David Cone, Martín Dihigo+, Don Drysdale+, Dennis Eckersley+, Red Faber+, Bob Feller+, Wes Ferrell, Rollie Fingers, Whitey Ford+, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson+, Rich Gossage+, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove+*, Carl Hubbell+, Walter Johnson+*, Fergie Jenkins, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax+, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Juan Marichal+, Christy Mathewson+**, Joe McGinnity, José Méndez, Hal Newhouser+, Kid Nichols+, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige+, Jim Palmer+, Gaylord Perry+, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Rick Reuschel, Eppa Rixey, Robin Roberts+, Bullet Rogan+, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie+, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Tom Seaver+**, Warren Spahn+, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton+, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh+, Hoyt Wilhelm+, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn and Cy Young+*.

Catchers (20): Johnny Bench+, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra+, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella+, Gary Carter+, Mickey Cochrane+, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing+, Carlton Fisk+, Bill Freehan, Josh Gibson+, Gabby Hartnett+, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza+, Louis Santop+, Ted Simmons+, Joe TorreQuincy Trouppe and Deacon White+.

First Basemen (21): Cap Anson+, Jeff Bagwell+, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers+**, Will Clark+, Roger Connor+, Jimmie Foxx+, Lou Gehrig+*, Hank Greenberg+, Keith Hernandez+, Harmon Killebrew+, Buck Leonard+, Willie McCovey+, Mark McGwire+, Johnny Mize+, Eddie Murray+, Rafael Palmeiro, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, and Bill Terry+.

Second Basemen (22): Roberto Alomar+, Ross Barnes+, Craig Biggio+, Rod Carew+, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer+, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich+, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby+**, Nap Lajoie+, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan+, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson+Ryne Sandberg+, and Lou Whitaker+.

Third Basemen (19): Dick Allen+, Frank Baker+, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs+*, George Brett+**, Ken BoyerJimmy Collins, Darrell Evans+, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Eddie Mathews+, John McGraw, Paul Molitor+, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo+, Mike Schmidt+*, Ezra Sutton, and Jud Wilson.

Shortstops (26): Luke Appling+, Ernie Banks+, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen+, George Davis+, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin+, John Henry Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Pee Wee Reese+, Cal Ripken, Jr.+**, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith+, Alan Trammell+, Arky Vaughan+, Honus Wagner+*, Bobby Wallace, John Ward+, Willie Wells, George Wright and Robin Yount+.

Left Fielders (23): Jesse Burkett, Barry Bonds+*, Fred Clarke+, Ed Delahanty+, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson+*, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial+*, Tim Raines+, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons+, Willie Stargell+, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat+, Billy Williams, Ted Williams+*, and Carl Yastrzemski+.

Center Fielders (26): Richie Ashburn+, Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Willard BrownPete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston+, Ty Cobb+, Andre Dawson, Joe DiMaggio+*, Larry Doby+, George Gore+, Billy Hamilton+Pete Hill+, Paul Hines+ , Mickey Mantle+*, Willie Mays+*, Alejandro Oms, Jim O’Rourke+, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Duke Snider+, Tris Speaker+, Turkey Stearnes+, Cristóbal Torriente and Jimmy Wynn.

Right Fielders (22): Hank Aaron+*, Roberto Clemente+, Sam Crawford**, Dwight Evans+, Elmer Flick, Tony Gwynn+, Harry Heilmann, Joe Jackson, Reggie Jackson+, Al Kaline+, Willie Keeler, King Kelly+, Mel Ott+, Frank Robinson+**, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth+*, Enos Slaughter+, Reggie Smith, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker+, Paul Waner+ and Dave Winfield+.

Designated Hitters (1): Edgar Martinez+

+ first-year candidate honorees (140)

* unanimously first on each voter’s ballot (16)

** placed in “elect me” ballot positions on each voter’s ballot, but not unanimously in first (9)

2012 Franchise Cap Standings
1.   Giants - 19 (Bonds, Bresnahan, WClark, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe,
     Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2.   Cubs - 17 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett,
     BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T.  Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn,
     Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T.  Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson,
     Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
3T.  Yankees - 13 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller,
     Mantle, Nettles, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
6T.  Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick,
     Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
6T.  Athletics - 12 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Henderson, McGwire, Plank,
     ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8.   Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline,
     Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
9T.  Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts,
     Schmidt, Thompson)
9T.  Reds - 10 (Bench, CJones, Groh, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. Dodgers - 10 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, 
     Vance, Wheat)
12T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
12T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
12T.  Red Sox - 9 (Boggs, Clemens, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, RSmith, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
15T. Orioles - 6 (Murray, Palmer, Ripken, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
15T. Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
17.  Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw)
18T. Astros - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, JWynn)
18T. Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
18T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
18T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
18T. Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
18T. Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
18T. Montreal Expos - 3 (GCarter, Dawson, Raines)
18T. Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
26T. Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
26T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
26T. Blue Jays - 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
26T. Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount)
26T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
26T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
26T. Mets - 2 (Cone, Seaver)
26T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
26T. Padres - 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
26T  Rangers - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
26T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
26T. Royals - 2 (Brett, Saberhagen)
38T. Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
38T. Atlantic City Bacharach Giants - 1 (Lundy)
38T. Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
38T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
38T. Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
38T. Cuban Stars East - 1 (Oms)
38T. Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
38T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
38T. Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
38T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
38T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
38T. Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning)
38T. Mariners - 1 (Martinez)
38T. Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
38T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
38T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
38T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
38T  Rockies - 1 (Walker)
38T. Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
2012 Cap Standings by City
1T.  Chicago - 29 (Anson, Appling, Banks, M. Brown, J. Clarkson, 
E. Collins, Dahlen, Faber, B. Foster, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, 
Herman, Hill, Jenkins, Kelly, Lyons, Minoso, Pierce, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, 
Sheckard, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, Bi. Williams)
1T.  New York - 29 (Berra, Bresnahan, Cone, Connor, G. Davis, Dickey, 
DiMaggio, Ewing, Ford, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, 
Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Nettles, Ott, Randolph, Ruffing, 
Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, J. Williams)
3.   Philadelphia - 19 (Alexander, Allen, Ashburn, Baker, Carlton,
Cochrane, Delahanty, R. Foster, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank,
Roberts, Schmidt, A. Simmons, H. Stovey, Thompson, Waddell)
4T.  Cleveland - 18 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, 
Doby, Feller, W. Ferrell, Flick, Glasscock, J. Jackson, Lajoie, Lemon, 
Sewell, Speaker, Trouppe, E. Wynn, Young)
4T.  St. Louis - 18 (Bell, Boyer, Caruthers, Frisch, B. Gibson, 
Hernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, T. Simmons, Sisler, 
Slaughter, Smith, Suttles, Wallace, Wells)
6.   Boston - 17 (Barnes, Boggs, Clemens, J. Collins, Doerr, Dw. Evans, Fisk, 
McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Smith, Spalding, E. Sutton, White, T. Williams, 
G. Wright, Yastrzemski)
7T.  Detroit - 13 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, 
Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes, Trammell, 
Whitaker)
7T.  Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, R. Brown, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, 
J. Gibson, Kiner, B. Leonard, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, Waner)
9T.  Baltimore - 10 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw, 
Murray, Palmer, Ripken, B. Robinson, Wilson)
9T.  Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, G. Johnson, Pearce, Reese, 
J. Robinson, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat)
9T.  Cincinnati - 10 (Bench, Groh, Jones, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, 
F. Robinson, Rose, Roush)
12. San Francisco - 7 (Bonds, Clark, Da. Evans, Marichal, Mays, McCovey, G. Perry)
13. Milwaukee - 6 (Aaron, Mathews, Molitor, Spahn, Torre, Yount)
14T. Kansas City - 5 (Brett, W. Brown, Moore, Rogan, Saberhagen)
14T. Oakland - 5 (Eckersley, Fingers, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGwire)
16. Los Angeles - 4 (Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, D. Sutton)
17T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T. Houston - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, J. Wynn)
17T. Montreal - 3 (Carter, Dawson, Raines)
17T. Minneapolis/St. Paul - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew)
17T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, W. Johnson)
22T. Anaheim* - 2 (Grich, N. Ryan)
22T. Arlington - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
221T. N/A - 2 (F. Grant, Oms)
22T. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
22T. San Diego – 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
22T. Toronto – 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
28T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez)
28T. Atlanta - 1 (Niekro)
28T. Atlantic City – 1 (Lundy)
28T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey)
28T. Denver - 1 (Walker)
28T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo)
28T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston)
28T. Louisville – 1 (Browning)
28T. Newark - 1 (Irvin)
28T. Seattle – 1 (Martinez)

* Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered to be part of another city.

2012 Cap Standings by State, Province, Foreign Country (if there is no 
knowm state or province) or U.S. Capital:
1.   New York (42)
2.   Pennsylvania (33)
3T.  Illinois (28)
3T.  Ohio (28)
5.   Missouri (23)
6.   California (20)
7.   Massachusetts (17)
8.   Michigan (13)
9.   Maryland (10)
10.  Wisconsin (6)
11.  Texas (5)
12T. Minnesota (3)
12T. Quebec (3)
12T. District of Columbia (3)
15T. Cuba (2)
15T. New Jersey (2)
15T. Rhode Island (2)
15T. Georgia (2)
15T. Indiana (2)
15T. Kentucky (2)
15T. Ontario (2)
22T. Colorado (1)
22T. Oregon (1)



Note all mentions of Win Shares on plaques are adjusted to 162 games.

All Negro League awards mentioned on the plaques are from John Holway’s The Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues (Fleet Walker Award = MVP; George Stovey Award = Cy Young Award; Rube Foster Award = Playoff MVP).

Primary positions on the plaques will be distinguished from secondary positions on all plaques by bold type.

Seasons are calculated this way: (Games Played/Team’s Scheduled Games). Each result is added up for each season to get the final number shown on each plaque.

Here are the plaques of the most recent inductees:


Barry Bonds - 2013 - LF
18.8 seasons with Pittsburgh (NL) 1986-1992; San Francisco (NL) 1993-2007
Cap: San Francisco Giants (NL)
Like his godfather Willie Mays, Barry Bonds’ impact on baseball left many in awe. Widely considered as one of the best players of all-time, he was unanimously placed first on every Hall of Merit ballot in his first year of consideration. A great all-around player early in his career who evolved into the most intimidating hitter ever (he has each of the top three and six of the top ten seasons of accumulated intentional walks), Bonds’ name is everywhere in the record books. He led the league in Runs (1992), HR (1993 and 2001, when he established a new single-season record 73), RBI (1993) BB (1992, 1994-1997, 2000-2004, 2006-2007), IBB (1992-1998, 2002-2004, 2006-2007), TB (1993), BA (2002, 2004), OBP (1991-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, 2006-2007, with 2004’s .609 and 2002’s .582 being the top two seasonal OBPs in baseball history) SLG (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004, which includes the MLB record of .863, set in 2001), OPS (1990-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, including the top two marks in history in 2004’s 1.422 and 2002’s 1.381), and OPS+ (1990-1993, 2000-2004, including the top three marks in MLB history, in 2002’s 268, 2004’s 263, and 2001’s 259). His 2004 season was also noteworthy in that he became the first player to have a season with more times on base than at bats (376 vs. 373). Bonds’ individual season dominance added up, as at the time of his induction he ranked in the top ten all-time in PA (9th – 12,606), Runs (3rd – 2,207), TB (4th – 5,796), HR (1st – 762), RBI (4th – 1,996), BB (1st – 2,558), IBB (1st – 688), XBH (2nd – 1,440), AB/HR (3rd – 12.9), times on-base (2nd – 5,599), OBP (6th - .444), SLG (6th - .607), OPS (4th – 1.051), and OPS+ (3rd – 182). Bonds is also the only player in the history of the game to reach the 500 marks in both career HR and career SB. He played on six division winning teams (1990-1992 with Pittsburgh and 1997, 2000, 2003 with San Francisco) and with the wild-card winning Giants in 2002 submitted a World Series performance for the ages, hitting .471/.700/1.294 with 4 HR in a losing effort. He holds the all-time Giants records in BB (1,947), IBB (575) OBP (.447), SLG (.666), OPS (1.143), and OPS+ (199). Fourteen-time All-Star (1990, 1992-1998, 2000-2004, 2007) who won 12 Silver Slugger awards (1990-1994, 1996-1997, 2000-2004), eight Gold Gloves (1990-1994, 1996-1998), and a record seven MVP awards (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004).

Roger Clemens - 2013 - P
Boston (AL) 1984-1996; Toronto (AL) 1997-1998; New York (AL) 1999-2003, 2007; Houston (NL) 2004-2006
Cap: Boston Red Sox (AL)
Known as the Rocket for his fiery temperament and overpowering fastball, Roger Clemens is considered by many as the best post-WWII pitcher—if not the best in all of baseball history. A workhorse pitcher who twice struck out 20 batters in a game, Clemens dominated the pitching landscape during his career. He led the league in wins (1986-1987, 1997-1998), winning percentage (1986, 2001, 2004), CG (1987-1988, 1997), SHO (1987-1988, 1990-1992, 1997), IP (1991, 1997), SO (1988, 1991, 1996-1998), ERA (1986, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2005), WHIP (1986, 1992, 1997), ERA+ (1986, 1990-1992, 1994, 1997-1998, 2005), H/9 (1986, 1994, 1998, 2005), SO/9 (1988, 1996, 1998), and SO/BB (1987-1988, 1990, 1992). Clemens was on two World Series winning teams (1999 and 2000 with the Yankees) along with seven other division winners (1986, 1988, 1990, 1995 with Boston and 2001-2003 with New York) and three wild-card winners (2004-2005 with Houston and 2007 with New York). Clemens’ 199 postseason innings are the fourth most all-time and his 173 strikeouts rank third all-time at the time of his induction. In his eight World Series starts, he went 3-0 with a 2.37 ERA and 49 strikeouts. For his career, Clemens ended up with the 9th most wins (354), 16th most innings pitched (4,916.2), third in strikeouts (4,672), seventh in games started (707), and tenth in ERA+ (143). All-time Red Sox leader in wins (192), SO (2,590), and SHO (38). Eleven-time All-Star (1986, 1988, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2001, 2003-2005) who won seven Cy Young awards (1986-1987, 1991, 1997-1998, 2001, 2004) and an MVP award (1986).

Mike Piazza - 2013 - C
12.2 seasons with Los Angeles (NL) 1992-1998; Florida (NL) 1998; New York (NL) 1998-2005; San Diego (NL) 2006; Oakland (AL) 2007
Cap: Los Angeles Dodgers (NL)
Considered by many to be the best-hitting catcher in Major League history, Mike Piazza hit like a first baseman while playing the most demanding position on the field. A 62nd round draft pick in 1988, Piazza made all the other teams look like fools for not drafting him in 1993 as he won the Rookie of the Year award by hitting .318/.370/.561 (153 OPS+) with 35 HR and 112 RBI. That rookie season announced Piazza as a force to be reckoned with for a long time, as it was his first of ten seasons wherein he would put up an OPS+ of 135 or better, leading the league in both 1995 (172) and 1997 (185). By the time Piazza retired, he held the record for the most HR (427, 396 while playing catcher) and highest slugging percentage (.545) for a catcher. Piazza hit .412/.545/.941 in the NLCS against the St. Louis Cardinals to help the 2000 wild-card winner New York Mets reach the World Series, and was also on two division winners (1995 Dodgers and 2006 Padres) and two other wild-card winners (1996 Dodgers and 1999 Mets). Twelve-time All-Star (1993-2002, 2004-2005) who won ten consecutive Silver Slugger awards (1993-2002). Has the highest career OPS+ in Dodgers history (160) and highest career SLG in Mets history (.542).

Craig Biggio - 2013 - 2B/C/CF
18.0 seasons with Houston (NL) 1988-2007
Cap: Houston Astros (NL)
A gritty player known for doing whatever it took to help the team, from getting hit by pitches (he led the league five times and has the second-most all-time with 285) to changing positions (he moved from C to 2B to CF to LF back to 2B over his long career), Craig Biggio’s impact on the field was undeniable. In 1992 the Astros moved Biggio from C to 2B in an effort to maximize his odds of being able to play every day and the gamble worked out as he quickly became the best 2B in the National League, a position he would hold throughout the 1990s. A sparkplug at the top of the lineup (one of only eight players with both 3,000 hits and 400 stolen bases), Biggio led the league in games played three times (1992, 1996-1997), PA five times (1992, 1995, 1997-1999), Runs twice (1995, 1997), 2B three times (1994, 1998, 1999) and SB once (1994). An integral member of the “Killer Bs” along with long-time teammate Jeff Bagwell, Biggio spent his entire career with the Astros and was part of four division winners (1997-1999, 2001) and two wild-card winners (2004-2005) making the World Series in 2005 (the first Houston team to win a pennant). At his induction, Biggio ranked in the top 25 all-time in G (16th—2,850), PA (10th—12,504), R (15th—1,844), H (21st—3,060), 2B (5th—668) and times on base (18th—4,505). Seven-time All-Star (1991-1992, 1994-1998) who won five Silver Slugger awards (1989, 1994-1995, 1997-1998) and four Gold Gloves (1994-1997). He holds the franchise record for most G, PA, R, H, TB (4,711), 2B, XBH (1,014), HBP, and times on base.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:37 PM | 1460 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 13 of 15 pages ‹ First  < 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 > 
   1201. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 01, 2007 at 01:47 AM (#2386947)
If you made it geographic and took account of the substantial transfer from the 1890s Beaneaters to the 1901 Pilgrims, all those 1870s players would be Red Sox. Makes more sense, since I bet they wouldn't have been able to find Atlanta on a map.


It only makes sense if you want more caps for your favorite team. ;-)
   1202. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 01, 2007 at 03:13 AM (#2387008)
After discussion with John Murphy, Deacon White's cap assignment has been reevaluated and has shifted from the Bisons to the "Braves". This pushes the Braves into a tie for third place with the Indians (the total should read 13 and will be corrected next time).


OK, but Deacon's plaque still says Bisons.
   1203. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 01, 2007 at 01:54 PM (#2387178)
OK, but Deacon's plaque still says Bisons.


Thanks, Ivan. I'll fix that right now.
   1204. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: June 02, 2007 at 08:57 PM (#2389351)
Because somebody's got to do it, here's the cap listings by cities. Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered by some as part of another area. When a player played for a team in more than one city, I chose the one where he had the most value (see notes at end)

1. Chicago - 27 (Anson, Appling, Banks, BrownM, ClarksonJ, CollinsE, Dahlen, Faber, FosterW, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, HermanB, HillP, Jenkins, KellyK, Lyons, Minoso, PierceB, Santo, Sheckard, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, WilliamsBi)
2. New York - 24 (Berra, Connor, DavisG, Dickey, DiMaggioJ, Ewing, FordW, Gehrig, Gordon, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Ruffing, Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, WilliamsSJ)
3. Philadelphia - 19 (Alexander, AllenD, Ashburn, BakerF, Carlton, Cochrane, Delahanty, FosterR, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank, RobertsR, Schmidt, SimmonsA, StoveyH, Thompson, Waddell)
4. Cleveland - 18 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, FerrellW, Flick, Glasscock, JacksonJ, Lajoie, Lemon, SewellJ, Speaker, TrouppeQ, WynnE, YoungC)
5. St. Louis - 17 (BellCP, BoyerK, Caruthers, Frisch, GibsonB, HernandezK, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, SimmonsT, Sisler, Slaughter, Suttles, Wallace, WellsW)
6. Boston - 14 (Barnes, CollinsJ, Doerr, EvansDw, Fisk, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, SuttonE, WhiteD, WilliamsT, WrightD, Yastrzemski)
7. Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, BrownR, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, GibsonJ, Kiner, LeonardB, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, WanerP)
8. Detroit - 11 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes)
9. Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, JohnsonHR, Pearce, Reese, RobinsonJ, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat)
10. Cincinnati - 8 (Bench, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, RobinsonF, Rose, Roush)
11. Baltimore - 7 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, Palmer, RobinsonB, WilsonJ)
12T. Milwaukee - 5 (Aaron, Mathews, Spahn, Torre, Yount)
12T. San Francisco - 5 (EvansDa, Marichal, MaysW, McCovey, PerryG)
14. Kansas City - 4 (Brett, BrownW, MooreD, Rogan)
15T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
15T. Los Angeles - 3 (Drysdale, Koufax, SuttonD)
15T. Minneapolis - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew)
15T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, JohnsonW)
19. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
20T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez)
20T. Anaheim* - 1 (Grich)
20T. Atlanta - 1 (NiekroP)
20T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey)
20T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo)
20T. Houston - 1 (WynnJ)
20T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston)
20T. Montreal - 1 (CarterG)
20T. Newark - 1 (Irvin)
20T. Oakland - 1 (JacksonR)
N/A - 1 (GrantF)

The Cuban Giants don't appear to have had a home for more than a year at a time, so I really didn't feel I could assign them anywhere. Almendares was a suburb of Havana (it is now part of the city). Darby (Hilldale) is a suburb of Philadelphia. Homestead was counted as part of Pittsburgh (but I could possibly be talked out of that).

The decisions between cities were pretty straightforward, with the exception of Joe Torre. He definitely had more value in Milwaukee than Atlanta, but it could be argued that he had more in St. Louis than either. I chose to stick with the Braves.

And now for some silliness

Cities with current major league teams that are unrepresented (by length of team existence): San Diego, Seattle, Toronto, Denver, Miami, Phoenix, Tampa Bay

Cities with prior major league teams that are unrepresented (# of games played by teams in parentheses): Louisville (2439), Columbus (614), Troy (325), Worcester (249), Toledo (236), Syracuse (192), Hartford (126), Rochester (126), Richmond (42), Altoona (25), Wilmington (18), St. Paul (8)

Cities not yet mentioned that had Negro League teams in one of the major Negro Leagues, per b-r.com wiki, including the Negro Southern League for 1932 only. (Number of years teams competed, through 1950, in parentheses): Memphis (21), Birmingham (19), Atlantic City (6), Harrisburg (5), Jacksonville (3), Dayton (2), Nashville (2), New Orleans (2), Monroe (LA) (1), Montgomery (1)

Cities with only NA teams: Elizabeth, Fort Wayne, Keokuk, Middletown, New Haven, Rockford.

Caps by state:
1. New York (37)
2. Pennsylvania (33)
3. Illinois (27)
4. Ohio (26)
5. Missouri (21)
6. Massachusetts (14)
7. Michigan (11)
8. California (9)
9. Maryland (7)
10. Wisconsin (5)
11. Minnesota, District of Columbia (3)
12. Cuba, Rhode Island (2)
13. Georgia, Indiana, New Jersey, Quebec, Texas (1)
   1205. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 02, 2007 at 09:40 PM (#2389479)
That was great, Devin. Thanks!
   1206. Paul Wendt Posted: June 02, 2007 at 10:46 PM (#2389791)
On the other hand, if we credited cities according to the share of their major league careers that each HOMer played there . . .

For example, with no accounting for multiple clubs in one city one year (that is, denominator is years not club-seasons):

Cap Anson
1/1 Rockford
4/130 Philadelphia
22/134 Chicago

Harry Stovey
3/3 Worcester
7/130 Philadelphia
2+/136 Boston
+ fractions

In other words, *if* you follow a major league season in Rockford or Worcester, your chance of seeing Anson or Stovey is very good!
   1207. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 19, 2007 at 02:12 AM (#2408889)
New plaques are up!

Ryan (not Nolan :-) hasn't had a chance to look over Fingers' and Gossage's plaque, so they might be revised within the week.
   1208. Chris Fluit Posted: June 19, 2007 at 03:27 AM (#2409017)
Thanks for post #1205, Devin. That was fun.
   1209. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 22, 2007 at 12:56 AM (#2412600)
Member of three division leaders (1971, 1975 and 1981) and the World Champions of 1972-74 (in the Fall Classic, he appeared in 16 games, winning two and saving six). AL MVP (1981).

I believe he was also on the 1982 Brewers, although he didn't pitch in the World Series due to injury. Pete Ladd became the closer.
   1210. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 22, 2007 at 01:28 AM (#2412615)
I believe he was also on the 1982 Brewers, although he didn't pitch in the World Series due to injury. Pete Ladd became the closer.


Good point, Ivan. Thanks!
   1211. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 24, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2414825)
and the World Champions of 1972-74 and 1982

I neglected to mention that the Brewers lost the 1982 World Series.
   1212. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 25, 2007 at 01:50 PM (#2416500)
I neglected to mention that the Brewers lost the 1982 World Series.


Heh. I remember that World Series, so that was just my own carelessness.
   1213. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 25, 2007 at 02:07 PM (#2416515)
Member of four division leaders (1971, 1975, 1981-82) and the World Champions of 1972-74

How about this, patterned after the Gossage write-up:

Member of three division leaders (1971, 1975, 1981) and four pennant-winners (1982 and the World Champions of 1972-74)
   1214. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 25, 2007 at 03:05 PM (#2416574)
Yep. I was rushing it again.

Thanks for keeping me honest, Ivan!
   1215. DavidFoss Posted: June 26, 2007 at 03:51 AM (#2417905)
The Angels are the first expansion team to get a second cap thanks to Nolan Ryan, while the two AL franchises with the most championships (the Yankees and the Athletics) each get another cap thanks to Gossage and Fingers.

These franchises have shared many players. Notably, Don Baylor and Bert Campaneris who each played for the three inductees with the team that they got their cap with. Other famous Athletic/Yankee/Angels include Reggie Jackson, Rickey Henderson, Tommy John, Norm Siebern and Dave Kingman.

The three teams each reached the postseason in 2002 which the Angels defeating the Yankees in the ALDS en route to their World Championship. The Yankees beat the Athletics in their only three playoff encounters (1981, 2000, 2001). (The A's and Angels have never met in the postseason, though fans may remember the thrilling 2004 pennant race with the Angels winning the pennant on the final weekend after trailing by 3 with 9 to go.


<u>2000 Franchise Cap Standings</u>
1. Giants - 16 (Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 15 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5T. Cardinals - 11 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter)
5T. Yankees - 11 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Ruffing, Ruth)
7. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
8T. Athletics - 9 (FBaker, Cochrane, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
8T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
8T. Tigers - 9 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser)
8T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
12T.Reds - 8 (Bench, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
14T.Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
14T.Red Sox - 6 (JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
16. Orioles - 4 (Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
30T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
30T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
30T.Brewers - 1 (Yount)
30T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
30T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
30T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
30T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
30T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
30T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
30T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
30T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
30T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
30T.Nationals - 1 (GCarter)
30T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
30T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
30T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
30T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
30T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
30T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1216. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: June 26, 2007 at 06:49 PM (#2418535)
On a related note, it appears that Gossage was a member of the 1989 pennant-winning Giants (from August onward) and the 1992 division-winning Athletics, but did not appear in either post-season. I'm not sure what your policy is on this.
   1217. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 02, 2007 at 12:59 PM (#2426211)
On a related note, it appears that Gossage was a member of the 1989 pennant-winning Giants (from August onward) and the 1992 division-winning Athletics, but did not appear in either post-season. I'm not sure what your policy is on this.


Those are good pickups, Ivan.

What I normally do, unless it's pointed out in a website or book, is to see if the honoree played in the postseason. Obviously, not everyone who played prominent roles during the regular season make it that far.
   1218. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 10, 2007 at 02:05 AM (#2435270)
New plaques are up!
   1219. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 10, 2007 at 02:10 AM (#2435279)
Winfield's 1981 Yankees won the AL pennant, not just the division series, and he was also on the pennant winning 1995 Indians although he didn't play in the World Series, and wasn't very good during the regular season.
   1220. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 10, 2007 at 02:14 AM (#2435289)
Boy, you're on top of things already!

I'll fix it in a jiff. Thanks!
   1221. DavidFoss Posted: July 24, 2007 at 04:57 AM (#2452704)
Padres, Tigers & Yankees each get a cap thanks to Winfield, Whitaker and Randolph. The three players were teammates on the 1987 AL All-Star team (though Whitaker did not play).

Its a Padre theme this year. Winfield gets the Padres their first cap. The Padres have won the NL Pennant twice, losing the World Series once each to the other two cap franchise. They lost to the Tigers (with Whitaker) in 1984 and to the Yankees in 1998.

The Tigers (4) and Yankees (7) won eleven of the twelve AL pennants between 1934 and 1945. They've met in the postseason just once, with the Tigers beating the Yankees in the 2006 ALDS.

<u>2001 Franchise Cap Standings</u>
1. Giants - 16 (Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 15 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5. Yankees - 12 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
6. Cardinals - 11 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter)
7T. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
7T. Tigers - 10 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Whitaker)
9T. Athletics - 9 (FBaker, Cochrane, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
9T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
9T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
9T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
13. Reds - 8 (Bench, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
14T.Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
14T.Red Sox - 6 (JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
16. Orioles - 4 (Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
30T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
30T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
30T.Brewers - 1 (Yount)
30T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
30T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
30T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
30T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
30T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
30T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
30T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
30T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
30T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
30T.Nationals - 1 (GCarter)
30T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
30T.Padres - 1 (Winfield)
30T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
30T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
30T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
30T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
30T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1222. cardsfanboy Posted: July 24, 2007 at 06:47 PM (#2453196)
Are you planning on setting up a 'hallofmerit.com' style website? with more graphics and other tidbits?
   1223. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:05 AM (#2462359)
New plaques are up!
   1224. OCF Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:26 AM (#2462389)
Ozzie didn't do the backflip "before each game." He'd do it on opening day, and not every year.
   1225. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:53 AM (#2462429)
As we discussed Saturday night cardsfanboy, send me an email . . . it was good meeting you.
   1226. Chris Fluit Posted: July 31, 2007 at 02:54 AM (#2462432)
woo-hoo! Blue Jays become 8th expansion team to get a cap.
   1227. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:13 AM (#2462469)
Stieb wasn't just a "Member of three division-champs (1985, 1989 and 1992)." He was a:

Member of three division-champs (1985, 1989 and the 1992 World Series Champions).
   1228. Daryn Posted: July 31, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2462514)
Tony Fernandez had 6 errors in 1989 -- what record did Ozzie set with his 8 errors? (Ripken had 8 in 1989 too).

And please don't call the Tigers the Bengals.
   1229. Chris Fluit Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:26 AM (#2462566)
I missed it at the time but I didn't realize we put Winfield in with a Padres cap. Back in posts 1068-1070, we had briefly discussed it and we seemed in agreement as to a Yankees cap at that time.
   1230. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 04:08 PM (#2462893)
I would lean Yankees hat for Winfield also. I am biased - what are his WARP and WS numbers with each team? He did have more WARP as a Padre - even after adjusting for 1981.

Is there a replacement level (too low) or peak (big years) issue that could swing his real overall value to being greater in NY? WARP1 underrates DH leagues, does correcting for that flip it to the Yankees?
   1231. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:37 PM (#2463129)
Ozzie didn't do the backflip "before each game." He'd do it on opening day, and not every year.


"Opening Day" was accidentally left off the plaque. Thanks, Old Cardinal Fan! ;-)
   1232. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 06:44 PM (#2463140)
I would lean Yankees hat for Winfield also. I am biased - what are his WARP and WS numbers with each team? He did have more WARP as a Padre - even after adjusting for 1981.


He was clearly better using WS, too.
   1233. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 08:14 PM (#2463387)
Stieb wasn't just a "Member of three division-champs (1985, 1989 and 1992)." He was a:

Member of three division-champs (1985, 1989 and the 1992 World Series Champions).


I added the 1992 mention at the last second, since he didn't show up in the World Series stats, but you're obviously correct, Ivan. Thanks, as always!
   1234. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 31, 2007 at 10:21 PM (#2463629)
Regarding 1233 - WS is also biased against the DH, how close was he?

What about in the Rosenheck numbers, which adjust for this?
   1235. DavidFoss Posted: July 31, 2007 at 10:43 PM (#2463657)
Win Shares with no adjustments has a 172-171 Padre advantage. Adjust for 1981 puts the Yankees ahead. Adjust for DH and its more clearly ahead.

My OPS+ analysis from #1069:
SDP-165-149-135-133-123-116-114
NYY
-159-154-142-138-133-120-118-116 


OPS+ removes pitcher hitting so there should be no DH effect there. Winfield was a better baserunner and hit into fewer DP in San Diego though... plus it was a tougher league.

I guess I'd vote for the Yankees. We've tried to be sticklers on other close-call caps (e.g. Cronin, Speaker, Collins). Winfield may have feuded with Steinbrenner, but the numbers show a slight Yankee edge.
   1236. Jim Sp Posted: July 31, 2007 at 10:51 PM (#2463666)
Dan R's numbers would put him in as a Padre.

Team Sum of WARP2 Sum of PennAdd Sum of Salary
CAL-A 2.9 0.035 2305708
CLE-A -1.2 -0.013 0
MIN-A -1 -0.013 0
NY_-A 30.1 0.393 41560095
SD_-N 31.4 0.42 48686752
TOR-A 2.8 0.035 2861330
65 0.857 95413885
   1237. yest Posted: July 31, 2007 at 10:58 PM (#2463682)
OPS+ removes pitcher hitting so there should be no DH effect there. Winfield was a better baserunner and hit into fewer DP in San Diego though... plus it was a tougher league.

not necciserly since DHs don't have to field you can put in a hitter and not have to worry about them fielding terribly so you can get one more bat in the lineup bringing up the leauge average.
   1238. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 31, 2007 at 11:00 PM (#2463686)
Win Shares with no adjustments has a 172-171 Padre advantage. Adjust for 1981 puts the Yankees ahead. Adjust for DH and its more clearly ahead.


It's not as simple as that, David, since Winfield created his Padre WS in far fewer games. His Padre WS/162 is higher.
   1239. DavidFoss Posted: July 31, 2007 at 11:29 PM (#2463729)
Here's the seasonal totals sorted:

SDP-33-28-25-24-22-20-17-3
NYY-31-26-22-21-20-18-17-16*

The * is 1981 so it should bump up to 23 or so. I dunno how much the DH affects things.
   1240. DavidFoss Posted: July 31, 2007 at 11:38 PM (#2463745)
not necciserly since DHs don't have to field you can put in a hitter and not have to worry about them fielding terribly so you can get one more bat in the lineup bringing up the leauge average.

Yeah. I forgot about that. I think we decided the effect was quite small though. If 11% of the lineup has an OPS+ of 110, that's only a 1% bump in context. Its negligible compared to the effect of including pitchers hitting (as many "needs to balance out" metrics do). 110 is generous, as well. It only happened once in Winfield's Yankee tenure. DH's usually hit around 106 or so (in 1985, DH's hit only 96!).
   1241. OCF Posted: August 01, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2463768)
Here's Winfield in my offensive system:

Winfield SD  69 43 33 30 27 19  8  0
Winfield NY  61 52 28 24 22
*21 15  9
Winfield oth 44 15  8 
--4-12 


Notes: that * is for the strike-shortened 1981, although I may have screwed up calculating that number anyway. I also threw all of 1990 into the "other" pile even though he had a few at bats for the Yankees.

Very hard to say, although he probably had more defensive value in San Diego.
   1242. DavidFoss Posted: August 01, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2464470)
Member of three division-champs (1985, 1989 and the 1992 World Series Champions).

The Jays won the division in 1991 as well. Stieb got hurt in late May. Is that enough to warrant a mention?
   1243. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:03 PM (#2465575)
"OPS+ removes pitcher hitting so there should be no DH effect there."

There is still a DH effect - the DH's drive the league average up. If OPS+ didn't include DH's or pitchers, then there'd be no effect. An AL 1980 OPS+ of 100 is tougher to achieve (assuming equal talent in each league at the 8 positions) than an NL 1980 OPS+. This is not true in 1972.
   1244. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:09 PM (#2465586)
Whoops, note to self, read all posts, don't just skim them, before responding. Sorry for repeating what was already said.
   1245. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 01, 2007 at 04:12 PM (#2465591)
I guess I can see the Padre angle - the career value is extremely close, but Winfield's peak was higher with San Diego; as can be seen by showing his edge in PA and Salary under Dan's system being higher (%-wise) than his edge in actual wins.

It's close, but I guess SD is probably the best choice.
   1246. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 02, 2007 at 03:50 AM (#2467112)
test - says 1250 posts, I only see 1246.
   1247. DavidFoss Posted: August 02, 2007 at 06:05 AM (#2467177)
Tigers, Cardinals and Blue Jays each get caps thanks to Trammell, OSmith & Stieb.

Tiger and Cardinals are the reigning AL and NL champs who have met in the World Series three times with the Cardinals winning in 1934 and 2006 and the Tigers winning in 1968.

The 1977-expansion Blue Jays get their first cap. They have never faced the Tigers or the Cardinals in the playoffs. There was the memorable 1987 pennant race, though where the Tigers swept the Jays in the final three games of the season to win the division by two games. Trammell hit a game-tying HR in the first game and a game-ending RBI single in the bottom of the second game. The Jays blew a 3.5 game lead with 7 to play by losing their final seven games (Stieb losing the game right before the final Tiger series).

Trammell hit .309/.382/.456 in 87 PA against Stieb. Ozzie Smith faced Stieb in four AllStar Games going 0 for 4.

<u>2002 Franchise Cap Standings</u>
1. Giants - 16 (Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 15 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5T. Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
5T. Yankees - 12 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
7. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
8. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
9T. Athletics - 9 (FBaker, Cochrane, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
9T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
9T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
9T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
13. Reds - 8 (Bench, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
14T.Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
14T.Red Sox - 6 (JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
16. Orioles - 4 (Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
30T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
30T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
30T.Blue Jays - 1 (Stieb)
30T.Brewers - 1 (Yount)
30T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
30T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
30T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
30T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
30T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
30T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
30T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
30T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
30T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
30T.Nationals - 1 (GCarter)
30T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
30T.Padres - 1 (Winfield)
30T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
30T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
30T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
30T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
30T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1248. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:22 PM (#2467262)
I guess I can see the Padre angle


Besides, it gives San Diego their first cap, while the Yankees have a boatload of them and more to come (Jeter, Rivera, Williams?).
   1249. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:24 PM (#2467266)
test - says 1250 posts, I only see 1246.


That means four of them have been deleted, Joe.
   1250. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 02, 2007 at 01:25 PM (#2467270)
The Jays won the division in 1991 as well. Stieb got hurt in late May. Is that enough to warrant a mention?


Well, he pitched well in his brief stint (even better than in '92), so I would say yes. Thanks, David!
   1251. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 18, 2007 at 05:39 AM (#2490394)
When was Deacon White's hat changed? I thought he was Buffalo . . .
   1252. OCF Posted: August 18, 2007 at 06:30 AM (#2490409)
I assume Murray gets an Orioles cap, and Sandberg is obvious.
What caps would any of the following get?
Pete Browning? (Louisville Colonels, I guess)
Charley Jones? (Two different "Cincinnati Reds" franchises to choose from?)
Roger Bresnahan? (Giants, presumably)
Hugh Duffy? (Boston Beaneaters?)
Andre Dawson? (Expos, I'd think.)
   1253. Paul Wendt Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:23 PM (#2490503)
Joe, This one could be answered by searching this page.

--
1203. Ivan Grushenko of HK in St Louis Posted: May 31, 2007 at 11:13 PM (#2387008)
>>After discussion with John Murphy, Deacon White's cap assignment has been reevaluated and has shifted from the Bisons to the "Braves". This pushes the Braves into a tie for third place with the Indians (the total should read 13 and will be corrected next time).
<<

OK, but Deacon's plaque still says Bisons.

1204. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 01, 2007 at 09:54 AM (#2387178)

>>OK, but Deacon's plaque still says Bisons.
<<

Thanks, Ivan. I'll fix that right now.
   1254. Paul Wendt Posted: August 18, 2007 at 03:59 PM (#2490528)
It is easy to identify Deacon White or Charley Jones with a single city, Buffalo or Cincinnati. They played for two major league clubs. White retired from baseball to work in Buffalo. Jones played for the Ludlow amateur or semipro club in 1875; he lived, worked outside baseball, and played for some amateur/semipro club in 1881-82.

The Braves' claim to White must rest on the identity of his NA 1873-75 and NL 1877 clubs, the quality of his '75 and '77 seasons (MVP-level), and his fielding the catcher position ('73-75). He was done as a regular catcher and slightly over the hill as a batter in Buffalo.
   1255. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 18, 2007 at 05:26 PM (#2490581)
When was Deacon White's hat changed? I thought he was Buffalo . . .


I had sent you an e-mail about a possible change last year for him, Joe. You said you were going to look into this, but you never had the time, I assume. For consistency's sake, I decided to change his cap months later on my own, though you're still the final arbiter, of course.

The Braves' claim to White must rest on the identity of his NA 1873-75 and NL 1877 clubs, the quality of his '75 and '77 seasons (MVP-level), and his fielding the catcher position ('73-75). He was done as a regular catcher and slightly over the hill as a batter in Buffalo.


Correct, Paul. He clearly was a more dominating figure with that Boston franchise and had more value there than he had in Buffalo. The shorter NA and NL schedules from the 1870s distorts this, of course, for the same reason that White is listed by many as a third baseman instead od a catcher for his career.

Is it possible that the Deacon might have preferred a Buffalo cap for other reasons than quality of his play instead? Sure, but that might be true of half of the inductees. I'd rather reward the franchise worthy of a cap, instead.
   1256. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:05 AM (#2493006)
New plaques are up!
   1257. Evan Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:45 PM (#2493454)
One Sandberg stat I always liked - he was the 3rd player to put up 25 HR/50 SB in a season. The first 2? Cesar Cedeno (twice) and Joe Morgan (also twice).
   1258. Chris Fluit Posted: August 21, 2007 at 07:16 PM (#2493660)
Murray gives the Orioles their fifth cap, creating a clear gap between the 16 franchises of 1901-1960 and everybody else. However, the Orioles are still in last place as far as those franchises are concerned. Even Ripken's arrival won't be enough to pull the Birds out of the basement as it looks like Boggs and Puckett will give boosts to the Red Sox and Twins before Cal is eligible.

Sandberg helps the Cubs tie the Giants for the top spot once again. The Giants will likely reclaim the lead when Will Clark becomes eligible, and could keep it for good depending on the eligibility dates of active players like Sosa, Kent and Bonds.

Jones gives the Reds their 9th cap, pulling them out of last place for National League franchises and into a tie with the Dodgers and the Pirates. With the recent eligibility of "Big Red Machine" players like Bench, Morgan and Rose, it's not surprising that the Reds were able to close the gap but it's really the backloggers like Roush and Jones who have given Cincy the boost they needed. Will Bucky Walters get them even further up the list?
   1259. Chris Fluit Posted: August 21, 2007 at 08:48 PM (#2493784)
My Bucky Walters comment got me thinking about franchise caps for the backlog candidates:

The Giants, tied for the lead with 16, have 6 backloggers: Bresnahan (top C-5th), Van Haltren (CF-17th), Welch (P-30th), Doyle (top 2B-34th), Bonds (OF-35th) and Burns (CF-67th).
The Cubs, tied for the lead with 16, have 5: L. Smith (RP-49th), Williamson (3B-56th), Chance (1B-58th), Ryan (CF-67th) and H. Wilson (CF-92nd). Not a lot of help there.

The Braves, currently with 13, have 6: Duffy (CF-12th), Willis (P-33rd), Murphy (CF-36th), Maranville (SS-70th), Berger (CF-94th) and Bond (P-94th).
The Indians, leading all AL franchises with 13, have just 3: Johnson (top corner OF-8th), Joss (P-51st) and Rosen (3B-69th).

The Yankees, currently with 12, have three catchers (E. Howard, Schang and Munson at 37, 44 and 52), one first baseman (Mattingly at 50), one second baseman (Lazzeri at 92), one third baseman (Nettles at 19), the top shortstop (Rizzuto at 21), no outfielders and four pitchers (Mays, John Gomez and Quinn at 40, 41, 60 and 77) for a grand total of 11 backlog vote-getters. That's pretty good.

The Cardinals, also with 12, have 5: Dean (P-22nd), Brock (OF-25th), Cepeda (1B-31st), Clark (1B-72nd) and Sutter (RP-80th).
The Tigers, currently with 11, have a rather impressive 7: Bridges (P-24th), Cash (1B-32nd), Parrish (C-64th), Veach (CF-79th), Trout (P-88th), Morris (P-94th) and Kell (3B-101st).
The Phillies, currently with 10, have only 3: Cravath (OF-14th), Bancroft (SS-41st) and Klein (OF-44th).

A bunch of franchises currently have 9.
The A's are pinning their hopes on only 3: Bando (3B-52nd), Campaneris (SS-94th) Tenace (C-104th)
The Dodgers are stuffing the ballots for 5: Grimes (P-28th), Newcombe (P-57th), F. Howard (OF-73rd), Cey (3B-74th) and Butler (CF-94th).
The Pirates are spreading the love to 9 more: Leach (top 3B/CF-15th), Elliott (3B-38th), Reuschel (P-46th), Traynor (3B-54th), Cooper (P-62nd), Mazeroski (2B-71st), Parker (OF-84th), Leever (P-90th) and Madlock (a fourth 3B! at 104th)
The Reds are looking for help from 5: Perez (top 1B/3B at 9th), Walters (P-11th), Concepcion (SS-27th), Lombardi (C-64th) and Mullane (P-67th).
The White Sox are fixing to get in 3: Cicotte (P-64th) Aparicio (SS-86th) and F. Jones (CF-90th).

How about the trailing franchises?
The Red Sox, currently with 6, have 4: R. Smith (CF-16th), Tiant (P-18th), Pesky (SS-83rd) and J. Rice (OF-84th).
The Twins, also with 6, have another 6 in line: Puckett (CF-7th), Oliva (OF-63rd), Kaat (P-73rd), S. Rice (OF-81st), Vernon (P-94th) and Leonard (P-97th).
The Orioles, who finally got their 5th, are at the bottom again with only 3: Singleton (OF-26th), Stephens (SS-46th) and Shocker (P-59th).

Next up, the expansion franchises:
The Angels already have 2, and they're looking to add 3: Tanana (P-48th), Downing (1B-86th) and Fregosi (SS-94th).
The Mets, with 1 already, looking to add 1 more: Staub (OF-29th).
The Nationals, also with 1, and looking to add 2: Dawson (CF-6th) and Wallach (3B-104th).
The Royals, also with 1, looking to add 1: Quisenberry (RP-104th).
The Astros, Blue Jays, Brewers and Padres each have 1, waiting on none.
The Rangers, with none yet, are looking to add 2: Bell (3B-54th) and Hough (P-101st).
The other expansion franchises are all waiting patiently for upcoming classes of not-yet eligible players.

As for the old franchises:
The old Baltimore Orioles of the NL would love to add a 4th: McGraw (3B-20th).
The Cleveland Blues would love to add a 2nd: Dunlap (2B-81st) though peak voters could push for the St. Louis Maroons to get their first.
The Louisville Colonels would love to get their 1st: Browning (top returnee at any position-4th).

And the Negro Leagues:
Always tricky to determine, however my best guess is that
Redding (P-10th) would add a 3rd to either the Brooklyn Royal Giants or the New York Lincoln Giants,
Oms (CF-13th) would be a first for his native Santa Clara,
Clarkson (3B/SS-23rd) would be a first for the Philadelphia Stars,
Taylor (1B-39th) would add a 2nd to the Indianapolis ABCs,
Monroe (2B-43rd) would be a 3rd for the Brooklyn Royal Giants (or 4th depending on Redding),
Matlock (P-75th) would be a 2nd for the Pittsburgh Crawfords,
Easter (1B-78th) would be a 4th for the Homestead Grays,
Moran (89th) could be a first for Fe (?) or a 2nd for the Habana Reds.
And Lundy (SS-101st) would be a first for the Atlantic City Bacharach Giants.

And I think that's everybody.
   1260. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 09:07 PM (#2493807)
The Cardinals, also with 12, have 5: Dean (P-22nd), Brock (OF-25th), Cepeda (1B-31st), Clark (1B-72nd) and Sutter (RP-80th).

Dean and Brock are Cardinals for sure, but I'm not so sure Cepeda and Clark aren't Giants (and Clark a RF), with Sutter a Cub. Probably moot points anyway.
   1261. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 09:19 PM (#2493820)
Dean and Brock are Cardinals for sure, but I'm not so sure Cepeda and Clark aren't Giants (and Clark a RF), with Sutter a Cub.


Correct, OCF. I also wouldn't classify those three as Cards.
   1262. DL from MN Posted: August 21, 2007 at 10:16 PM (#2493863)
"The Indians, leading all AL franchises with 13, have just 3: Johnson (top corner OF-8th)"

Indian Bob Johnson played for the Athletics. I'm pretty sure Reuschel would be a Cub, not a Pirate.

"The White Sox are fixing to get in 3: Cicotte"

The fix is in!

"The Mets, with 1 already, looking to add 1 more: Staub (OF-29th)"

Is Staub really a Met?
   1263. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: August 21, 2007 at 10:29 PM (#2493872)
Is Staub really a Met?



As a Met fan, it pains me to say that he had the most value as a Colt/Astro.
   1264. Chris Fluit Posted: August 21, 2007 at 10:41 PM (#2493882)
Thanks for the corrections, everyone. Don't know why I would have thought "Indian" Bob Johnson played for Indians. As always, it's the ones you don't look up that trip you up.
   1265. DavidFoss Posted: August 22, 2007 at 06:59 AM (#2494771)
Orioles, Cubs and Reds each get caps thanks to Eddie Murray, Ryne Sandberg and Charley Jones.

The Orioles and Reds met in the 1970 World Series with the Orioles winning in five. The Cubs (NL) and Reds (AA) Franchises each won their respective league titles in 1882, but there was no World Series held that year.

Players who played for all three franchises include Milt Pappas, Lee Smith, Randy Myers, Moe Drabowsky, Mike Morgan and HOM-sibling Jim Delahanty.

<u>2003 Franchise Cap Standings</u>
1T. Cubs - 16 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
1T. Giants - 16 (Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5T. Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
5T. Yankees - 12 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
7. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
8. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
9T. Athletics - 9 (FBaker, Cochrane, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
9T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
9T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
9T. Reds - 9 (Bench, CJones, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
14T.Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
14T.Red Sox - 6 (JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
16. Orioles - 5 (Murray, Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
30T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
30T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
30T.Blue Jays - 1 (Stieb)
30T.Brewers - 1 (Yount)
30T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
30T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
30T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
30T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
30T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
30T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
30T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
30T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
30T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
30T.Nationals - 1 (GCarter)
30T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
30T.Padres - 1 (Winfield)
30T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
30T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
30T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
30T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
30T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1266. McLovin Posted: August 23, 2007 at 03:09 AM (#2496145)
Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)

Deacon White only played 1 season for the Braves. I assume you got your old time Bostons confused; this should be the Boston Red Stockings, as it says on his plaque.
   1267. McLovin Posted: August 23, 2007 at 03:13 AM (#2496148)
Actually, Barnes, McVey, and Spalding all played only for Boston in the Nat'l Association, and never for the NL Braves. Baseball-Reference shows those as separate franchises. Is that incorrect?
   1268. McLovin Posted: August 23, 2007 at 03:21 AM (#2496163)
Looks like there is some discussion about this very topic many posts back....lemme see if I can figure out what it's all about and if my questions should be withdrawn...
   1269. Paul Wendt Posted: August 23, 2007 at 03:45 AM (#2496187)
on Deacon White
> This should be the Boston Red Stockings, as it says on his plaque.

> Actually, Barnes, McVey, and Spalding all played only for Boston in the Nat'l Association, and never for the NL Braves. Baseball-Reference shows those as separate franchises. Is that incorrect?

There weren't any franchises before 1876 but it is a single club from 1871. With outsiders from Louisville and Cincinnati, six of the seven strong NA clubs established the National League. Compare St Louis Brown Stockings in the last line of the table.

The plaque "Caps" use more complete names in the popular, eventually official "city and nickname" format: Hank Aaron, Milwaukee Braves; Cap Anson, Chicago White Stockings.
The Franchise Cap Standings group them by franchise (club).
Someone posted Cap Standings grouped by city once but it isn't maintained.

See also #1255 and 1256
   1270. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: August 23, 2007 at 04:01 AM (#2496205)
Someone posted Cap Standings grouped by city once but it isn't maintained.

Yeah, I didn't think we needed both lists every year. I'll put up an updated version after 2008.
   1271. McLovin Posted: August 26, 2007 at 01:08 AM (#2499778)
There weren't any franchises before 1876 but it is a single club from 1871.

On looking closer at the Braves' franchise page on B-R, I see Forman does note that they "Also played as a National Association Franchise," but he does not show that NA history on their page. He doesn't list any of the NA teams' records as part of their NL counterparts' records. I'm not that informed on this era, so I'm sorry if this has been covered before. What do you mean "there weren't any franchises before 1876"? From reading the B-R wiki, I see that they started the NL because there were problems in the structure of the NA. But I don't understand why the teams are split up on B-R, when he does show continuous histories of the AA teams that moved to the NL. If anyone can give a better summary of what happened in the NA/NL transition, or point me to one, I'd appreciate it.
   1272. Paul Wendt Posted: August 29, 2007 at 06:12 PM (#2503625)
I don't understand why the teams are split up on B-R, when he does show continuous histories of the AA teams that moved to the NL.

I believe this is a judgment about meeting the demand, that is matching the most common interests of visitors to the website.

Why may visitors be more interested in seeing Saint Louis AA 1882-1891 and NL 1892-date grouped together than in seeing NA 1875 and NL 1876-1877 grouped together? One plausible reason is that MLB recognizes the AA but not the NA as a major league, so the baseball-reference "franchise" pages cover the entire officially-major league histories.

This isn't a great reason because it would be easy to serve both by listing the entire club history on one page with a horizontal line or color change to demarcate 1875/76.

Retrosheet includes the NA histories of the six 1875 clubs that established the NL.
Chicago Cubs at Retrosheet

Some people here, at least KJOK and I, have advised Retrosheet and Baseball-reference on this matter.

--
Why not "franchises" before 1876?

Only beginning in 1876 the member clubs enjoy rights in their leagues, routinely retained from year to year and transferable to a successor (albeit subject to approval by at least a majority of the members). First and foremost, the clubs are exclusive league members in their own cities plus some neighboring territory; since a few years after 1876 they are exclusive participants in organized baseball with a veto of local competition all the way down to the lowest minor league. Second, the clubs are jointly exclusive league members regardless of location. Their number increases only by majority or super-majority vote to expand; thus from 1876 to 1961 each of eight member clubs effectively owned 1/8 of the National League. On these two grounds a club in the National League is valuable for its franchise even if it is a sure money loser in its baseball operations. It is chiefly the franchise (membership) that Montreal owners recently sold to the NL and indirectly to a new group in Washington.

In the franchise epoch, designation of a club by its home city generally works. On the contrary there were three NA clubs in Philadelphia for the 1875 season; two in Brooklyn '72, Washington '72, Baltimore '73, Philadelphia '73-74, and St Louis '75.
NA 1872 at baseball-reference
   1273. yest Posted: September 06, 2007 at 01:14 PM (#2513812)
Eddie Murray

1, 917 runs
1,917 runs

record for 1B career (1865) assists

560 doubles

record for most consecutive years with 75 RBIs (20)

record for most career (128) sacrifice flies

record 11 switch hit HRs

led majors in BA 1990
   1274. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2007 at 07:00 PM (#2514200)
You finally made it back here after a sabbatical, yest!

1, 917 runs
1,917 runs

record for 1B career (1865) assists

560 doubles

led majors in BA 1990


I added or corrected all of them.

record for most career (128) sacrifice flies


It was already on the plaque.

record for most consecutive years with 75 RBIs (20)

record 11 switch hit HRs


Interesting, but I'm going to have to say no.

Thanks!
   1275. yest Posted: September 06, 2007 at 10:27 PM (#2514440)
John are there any specific plaques that I should do first
   1276. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 06, 2007 at 10:57 PM (#2514464)
John are there any specific plaques that I should do first


Not really, yest, as long they're not ones that we have gone over a while ago.
   1277. Paul Wendt Posted: September 07, 2007 at 03:24 PM (#2515105)
A week ago I noted the banners hanging down the outer wall of Fenway Park behind right center field (Van Ness Street, beginning at Van Ness and Ipswich). The Red Sox have retired only five numbers but they honor thirteen players with "firstname lastname" vertical banners. Unlike numbers, the names cover the entire history of the club (although no honoree played during 1921-32). Ten of the thirteen are now in the Hall of Merit and they compose a regular eight plus two pitchers.

Williams Speaker Yaz
Collins Cronin Doerr Foxx
Young Grove
Fisk

Yaz handles the larger and Williams the smaller outfield.
Boggs will be the DH.

Hooper and Ferrell are the others honored. They fit in easily, a genuine Fenway Park right fielder and a second catcher.
Clemens, maybe next in line for a banner, will give them a good three-man pitching staff.
   1278. Paul Wendt Posted: September 07, 2007 at 03:38 PM (#2515125)
Last Saturday, perfect evening weather. I walked around the outside of the ballpark before the game, my first tour since the multiple renovations of the 20-aughts. (my first since the Ts and Vs - Thomas, Tartabull, Ventura, Vaughn, and Valentin - hit nine home runs, 4 T and 5 V)

So I was at the ballpark both before and after a no-hitter and I watched the game in the brew pub across the street, Boston Beer Works. I will be very lucky to get closer to a no-hitter than that, unless seeing 7 or 8 no-hit innings from inside the ballpark is closer in another dimension.
   1279. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 11, 2007 at 02:08 AM (#2519338)
New plaques are up!
   1280. Paul Wendt Posted: September 11, 2007 at 05:05 AM (#2519460)
Molitor
Member of one division series winner (1981) and two pennant-winners (1983 and the World Champions of 1993);

mini-pennant winner and division series loser 1981
pennant winner 1982
   1281. DavidFoss Posted: September 11, 2007 at 05:20 AM (#2519470)
Brewers, Athletics and Giants get caps thanks to Molitor, Eckersley and Bresnahan. This puts the Giants in the cap lead again with 17 and the Brewers join the ANgels as expansion teams with multiple caps.

The Brewers have made the postseason twice and never faced the A's or the Giants. The A's and the Giants have met in the World Series four times. Eckersley's A's won the Bay Series in 1989, but the franchise also met three times when they were stationed in Philly & NY (1905, 1911, 1913). The 1905 Series is remembered for Mathewson's three shutouts, but Bresnahan was the top batter for the Giants in that series. A few years later, Mack's A's beat the McGraw's Giants in two series with Frank Baker earning his nickname by hitting two home runs in 1911 and another in 1913.

Molitor faced Eckersley 43 times batting .310/.310/.714 with 4 HR and 10 RBI.

Far and away, the most famous person to play for all three franchises was Felipe Alou. The others were Ollie Brown, Brad Komminsk, Ernest "Don't Call Me Ernie" Riles and Lary "Don't Call me Larry" Sorenson.

<u>2004 Franchise Cap Standings</u>

1. Giants - 17 (Bresnahan, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 16 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5T. Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
5T. Yankees - 12 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
7. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
8T. Athletics - 10 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8T. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
9T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
9T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
9T. Reds - 9 (Bench, CJones, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
14T.Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
14T.Red Sox - 6 (JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
16. Orioles - 5 (Murray, Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
30T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
30T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
30T.Blue Jays - 1 (Stieb)
30T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
30T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
30T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
30T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
30T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
30T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
30T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
30T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
30T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
30T.Nationals - 1 (GCarter)
30T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
30T.Padres - 1 (Winfield)
30T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
30T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
30T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
30T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
30T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1282. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 11, 2007 at 11:07 AM (#2519534)
mini-pennant winner and division series loser 1981
pennant winner 1982


When I was looking over Molitor's postseason record, I forgot that '81 was the strike season.

As for the year of the Brewers' pennant, I just made a typo.

Thanks, Paul!
   1283. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 11, 2007 at 11:23 AM (#2519540)
Thanks for the update, David!
   1284. yest Posted: September 11, 2007 at 07:14 PM (#2520131)
Paul Molitor – 2004 – 3B/DH/2B/1B
thank you John
   1285. Brent Posted: September 24, 2007 at 02:46 AM (#2539585)
On Molitor's plaque, Minnesota should read 1996-98.
   1286. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 24, 2007 at 01:24 PM (#2539798)
Thanks, Brent!
   1287. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 02, 2007 at 02:48 AM (#2554399)
New plaques are up!
   1288. DavidFoss Posted: October 02, 2007 at 05:55 AM (#2555749)
Red Sox, Colonels and Nationals get caps thanks to Boggs, Browning and Dawson.

Usually at this point I put down the times these franchises have met in the postseason, as well as interesting links between the Franchise. This one is tough!

None of these franchises have come close to meeting in the postseason and with 70 years between the folding of the Colonels and the birth of the Expos, no one has

played for all three franchises.

The Colonels were part of a syndicate with the Pittsburgh Pirates, many former Colonels were on the 1903 Pirate squad that lost to the Red Sox in the first World

Series. Jimmy Collins was on that Red Sox squad and he is also the most notable player to play for both the Colonels and the Red Sox. Notable players who played

for the Red Sox and the Expos/Nationals include Andre Dawson, Tony Perez, Jeff Reardon and Pedro Martinez.

In the 20th Century, Louisville was a minor league town, often affiliated (1939-55; 1968-72) with the Red Sox. Including this incarnation, I found at least one

player, Mike Garman, who played for all three.

Dawson and Boggs met in five all-star games (1987-1991), all on opposing teams. Boggs' AL teams won four, Dawson's NL team one.

<u>2005 Franchise Cap Standings</u>

1. Giants - 17 (Bresnahan, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 16 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T. Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn, Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T. Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
5T. Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
5T. Yankees - 12 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller, Mantle, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
7. Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
8T. Athletics - 10 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Plank, ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8T. Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts, Schmidt, Thompson)
9T. Dodgers - 9 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, Vance, Wheat)
9T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
9T. Reds - 9 (Bench, CJones, Groh, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
14. Red Sox - 7 (Boggs, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
15. Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
16. Orioles - 5 (Murray, Palmer, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
17T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 3 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley)
17T.Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
17T.Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
17T.Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
17T.Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
17T.Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
24T.Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
24T.Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
24T.Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount)
24T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
24T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
24T.Nationals - 2 (GCarter, Dawson)
24T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
24T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
31T.Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
31T.Astros - 1 (JWynn)
31T.Blue Jays - 1 (Stieb)
31T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
31T.Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
31T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
31T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
31T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
31T.Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
31T.Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
31T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
31T.Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning)
31T.Mets - 1 (Seaver)
31T.Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
31T.Padres - 1 (Winfield)
31T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
31T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
31T.Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
31T.Royals - 1 (Brett)
31T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   1289. Juan V Posted: October 02, 2007 at 06:16 AM (#2555772)
Nationals caps? We want the Spos! :-)
   1290. OCF Posted: October 02, 2007 at 06:51 AM (#2555797)
Nationals caps? We want the Spos! :-)

We've got another one coming in our first "real-time" election in 2008. The three of them were teammates from 1981 through 1984, and you can include 1979 and 1980 if you want to include Raines the lightly-used pinch-runner.
   1291. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 02, 2007 at 11:21 AM (#2555853)
Thanks, David!
   1292. Sean Gilman Posted: October 02, 2007 at 08:44 PM (#2556645)
Murphy's got an argument over Dawson as "the greatest NL centerfielder of the 80s" doesn't he?
   1293. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 02, 2007 at 09:30 PM (#2556748)
Murphy's got an argument over Dawson as "the greatest NL centerfielder of the 80s" doesn't he?


Yep. Surprisingly, I forgot about the Murph.

He not only has an argument, Sean, but Murphy won it. His only battle is with Dwight Evans for the best ML center fielder honors.

Thanks!
   1294. Sean Gilman Posted: October 02, 2007 at 09:33 PM (#2556752)
Murphy and Dawson were 5-6 on my ballot, with Murphy slightly ahead. I think "arguably the greatest. . ." would work fine on Dawson's plaque.
   1295. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 02, 2007 at 09:46 PM (#2556780)
Murphy and Dawson were 5-6 on my ballot, with Murphy slightly ahead. I think "arguably the greatest. . ." would work fine on Dawson's plaque.


Yeah, but Murphy's peak was more impressive.

I changed it to: A star in Montreal and later in Chicago.
   1296. Sean Gilman Posted: October 02, 2007 at 09:53 PM (#2556795)
Yeah, but Murphy's peak was more impressive.

I agree. But given their relative vote totals, others may disagree.

How does Dawson get twice as many votes as Murphy? I guess that's a topic for another thread.
   1297. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: October 03, 2007 at 12:37 AM (#2556979)
Umm Dwight Evans was a right fielder.

Dawson got twice as many votes as Murphy because he had a muuuch more valuable career while still achieving some semblance of a peak.
   1298. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 03, 2007 at 12:59 AM (#2556998)
Umm Dwight Evans was a right fielder.


Boy, my mind is not working today. Obviously, you're right.
   1299. Sean Gilman Posted: October 03, 2007 at 12:59 AM (#2556999)
Well, Dawson had 50 more Win Shares, and 17 or so more WARP1, there's no doubt he's got a sizable career edge, largely because his big drop from his peak wasn't quite as big as Murphy's.

But I would think most of the Dawson voters are peak/prime guys who don't care so much about that.
   1300. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: October 03, 2007 at 01:25 AM (#2557026)
I think Dawson got in by drawing a mixture of support from peak/primers impressed by his 1980-83 run and straight career WS voters giving him credit for his worthless final four years.
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