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Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Monday, August 02, 2004

The Baseball Hall of Merit Plaque Room: Home Page

Enter here to see the players that have been immortalized in the Hall of Merit.

John Murphy was the curator of the Plaque Room and creator (with Ryan Wagman’s help) of the plaques. As of 2011 the creator of the plaques is theorioleway.

David Foss is in charge of the franchise cap standings.

Devin McCullen provides the city and state cap standings.

yest helps us out double-checking the plaques for accuracy.

The whole process is overseen by our commissioner and founder Joe Dimino.

For Hall of Meriters A-F, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters G-L, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters M-R, please click here.
For Hall of Meriters S-Z, please click here.

The current roster (246 total) includes (in alphabetical order for each position):

Pitchers (66): Pete Alexander+, Kevin Brown+, Bert Blyleven+, Mordecai Brown, Ray Brown+, Jim Bunning+, Steve Carlton+, Bob Caruthers, John Clarkson+, Roger Clemens+**, Stan Coveleski, David Cone, Martín Dihigo+, Don Drysdale+, Dennis Eckersley+, Red Faber+, Bob Feller+, Wes Ferrell, Rollie Fingers, Whitey Ford+, Rube Foster, Willie Foster, Pud Galvin, Bob Gibson+, Rich Gossage+, Clark Griffith, Lefty Grove+*, Carl Hubbell+, Walter Johnson+*, Fergie Jenkins, Tim Keefe, Sandy Koufax+, Bob Lemon, Ted Lyons, Juan Marichal+, Christy Mathewson+**, Joe McGinnity, José Méndez, Hal Newhouser+, Kid Nichols+, Phil Niekro, Satchel Paige+, Jim Palmer+, Gaylord Perry+, Billy Pierce, Eddie Plank, Charley Radbourn, Rick Reuschel, Eppa Rixey, Robin Roberts+, Bullet Rogan+, Red Ruffing, Amos Rusie+, Nolan Ryan, Bret Saberhagen, Tom Seaver+**, Warren Spahn+, Al Spalding, Dave Stieb, Don Sutton+, Dazzy Vance, Rube Waddell, Ed Walsh+, Hoyt Wilhelm+, Smokey Joe Williams, Early Wynn and Cy Young+*.

Catchers (20): Johnny Bench+, Charlie Bennett, Yogi Berra+, Roger Bresnahan, Roy Campanella+, Gary Carter+, Mickey Cochrane+, Bill Dickey, Buck Ewing+, Carlton Fisk+, Bill Freehan, Josh Gibson+, Gabby Hartnett+, Biz Mackey, Cal McVey, Mike Piazza+, Louis Santop+, Ted Simmons+, Joe TorreQuincy Trouppe and Deacon White+.

First Basemen (21): Cap Anson+, Jeff Bagwell+, Jake Beckley, Dan Brouthers+**, Will Clark+, Roger Connor+, Jimmie Foxx+, Lou Gehrig+*, Hank Greenberg+, Keith Hernandez+, Harmon Killebrew+, Buck Leonard+, Willie McCovey+, Mark McGwire+, Johnny Mize+, Eddie Murray+, Rafael Palmeiro, George Sisler, Joe Start, Mule Suttles, and Bill Terry+.

Second Basemen (22): Roberto Alomar+, Ross Barnes+, Craig Biggio+, Rod Carew+, Cupid Childs, Eddie Collins, Bobby Doerr, Nellie Fox, Frankie Frisch, Charlie Gehringer+, Joe Gordon, Frank Grant, Bobby Grich+, Billy Herman, Rogers Hornsby+**, Nap Lajoie+, Bid McPhee, Joe Morgan+, Willie Randolph, Hardy Richardson, Jackie Robinson+Ryne Sandberg+, and Lou Whitaker+.

Third Basemen (19): Dick Allen+, Frank Baker+, John Beckwith, Wade Boggs+*, George Brett+**, Ken BoyerJimmy Collins, Darrell Evans+, Heinie Groh, Stan Hack, Eddie Mathews+, John McGraw, Paul Molitor+, Graig Nettles, Brooks Robinson, Ron Santo+, Mike Schmidt+*, Ezra Sutton, and Jud Wilson.

Shortstops (26): Luke Appling+, Ernie Banks+, Lou Boudreau, Joe Cronin, Bill Dahlen+, George Davis+, Jack Glasscock, Hughie Jennings, Home Run Johnson, Barry Larkin+, John Henry Lloyd, Dick Lundy, Dobie Moore, Dickey Pearce, Pee Wee Reese+, Cal Ripken, Jr.+**, Joe Sewell, Ozzie Smith+, Alan Trammell+, Arky Vaughan+, Honus Wagner+*, Bobby Wallace, John Ward+, Willie Wells, George Wright and Robin Yount+.

Left Fielders (23): Jesse Burkett, Barry Bonds+*, Fred Clarke+, Ed Delahanty+, Goose Goslin, Rickey Henderson+*, Monte Irvin, Charley Jones, Charlie Keller, Joe Kelley, Ralph Kiner, Sherry Magee, Joe Medwick, Minnie Minoso, Stan Musial+*, Tim Raines+, Jimmy Sheckard, Al Simmons+, Willie Stargell+, Harry Stovey, Zack Wheat+, Billy Williams, Ted Williams+*, and Carl Yastrzemski+.

Center Fielders (26): Richie Ashburn+, Earl Averill, Cool Papa Bell, Willard BrownPete Browning, Max Carey, Oscar Charleston+, Ty Cobb+, Andre Dawson, Joe DiMaggio+*, Larry Doby+, George Gore+, Billy Hamilton+Pete Hill+, Paul Hines+ , Mickey Mantle+*, Willie Mays+*, Alejandro Oms, Jim O’Rourke+, Lip Pike, Edd Roush, Duke Snider+, Tris Speaker+, Turkey Stearnes+, Cristóbal Torriente and Jimmy Wynn.

Right Fielders (22): Hank Aaron+*, Roberto Clemente+, Sam Crawford**, Dwight Evans+, Elmer Flick, Tony Gwynn+, Harry Heilmann, Joe Jackson, Reggie Jackson+, Al Kaline+, Willie Keeler, King Kelly+, Mel Ott+, Frank Robinson+**, Pete Rose, Babe Ruth+*, Enos Slaughter+, Reggie Smith, Sam Thompson, Larry Walker+, Paul Waner+ and Dave Winfield+.

Designated Hitters (1): Edgar Martinez+

+ first-year candidate honorees (140)

* unanimously first on each voter’s ballot (16)

** placed in “elect me” ballot positions on each voter’s ballot, but not unanimously in first (9)

2012 Franchise Cap Standings
1.   Giants - 19 (Bonds, Bresnahan, WClark, Connor, GDavis, DaEvans, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe,
     Marichal, Mathewson, WMays, McCovey, McGinnity, Ott, GPerry, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2.   Cubs - 17 (Anson, Banks, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett,
     BiHerman, Jenkins, KKelly, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, Sheckard, BiWilliams)
3T.  Braves - 13 (Aaron, Barnes, Mathews, McVey, Nichols, PNiekro, O'Rourke, Spahn,
     Spalding, ESutton, Torre, DWhite, GWright)
3T.  Indians - 13 (Averill, Boudreau, Coveleski, Doby, Feller, WFerrell, Flick, JJackson,
     Lajoie, Lemon, JSewell, Speaker, EWynn)
3T.  Yankees - 13 (Berra, Dickey, Dimaggio, WFord, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Keller,
     Mantle, Nettles, Randolph, Ruffing, Ruth)
6T.  Cardinals - 12 (KBoyer, Caruthers, Frisch, BGibson, KHernandez, Hornsby, Medwick,
     Mize, Musial, TSimmons, Slaughter, OSmith)
6T.  Athletics - 12 (FBaker, Cochrane, Eckersley, Fingers, Foxx, Grove, Henderson, McGwire, Plank,
     ReJackson, ASimmons, Waddell)
8.   Tigers - 11 (Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline,
     Newhouser, Trammell, Whitaker)
9T.  Phillies - 10 (Alexander, DAllen, Ashburn, Carlton, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, RRoberts,
     Schmidt, Thompson)
9T.  Reds - 10 (Bench, CJones, Groh, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, FRobinson, Rose, Roush)
9T. Dodgers - 10 (Campanella, Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, PWReese, JRobinson, Snider, DSutton, 
     Vance, Wheat)
12T. Pirates - 9 (Beckley, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, Kiner, Stargell, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
12T. White Sox - 9 (Appling, ECollins, Faber, Fox, Lyons, Minoso, BPierce, Walsh, Wilhelm)
12T.  Red Sox - 9 (Boggs, Clemens, JCollins, Doerr, DwEvans, Fisk, RSmith, TWilliams, Yastrzemski)
15T. Orioles - 6 (Murray, Palmer, Ripken, BRobinson, Sisler, Wallace)
15T. Twins - 6 (Blyleven, Carew, Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson, Killebrew)
17.  Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 4 (Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw)
18T. Astros - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, JWynn)
18T. Buffalo Bisons - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
18T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
18T. Cleveland Spiders - 3 (Burkett, Childs, CYoung)
18T. Homestead Grays - 3 (RBrown, JGibson, BLeonard)
18T. Kansas City Monarchs - 3 (WBrown, DMoore, Rogan)
18T. Montreal Expos - 3 (GCarter, Dawson, Raines)
18T. Saint Louis Stars - 3 (CPBell, Suttles, WWells)
26T. Angels - 2 (Grich, NRyan)
26T. Baltimore Black Sox - 2 (Beckwith, JWilson)
26T. Blue Jays - 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
26T. Brewers - 2 (Molitor, Yount)
26T. Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
26T. Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
26T. Mets - 2 (Cone, Seaver)
26T. New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
26T. Padres - 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
26T  Rangers - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
26T. Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
26T. Royals - 2 (Brett, Saberhagen)
38T. Almendares Blues - 1 (JMendez)
38T. Atlantic City Bacharach Giants - 1 (Lundy)
38T. Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
38T. Cleveland Buckeyes - 1 (QTrouppe)
38T. Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
38T. Cuban Stars East - 1 (Oms)
38T. Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
38T. Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
38T. Habana Reds - 1 (Dihigo)
38T. Hilldale Daisies - 1 (Mackey)
38T. Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
38T. Louisville Colonels - 1 (Browning)
38T. Mariners - 1 (Martinez)
38T. Newark Eagles - 1 (Irvin)
38T. Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
38T. Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
38T. Pittsburgh Crawfords - 1 (Paige)
38T  Rockies - 1 (Walker)
38T. Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
2012 Cap Standings by City
1T.  Chicago - 29 (Anson, Appling, Banks, M. Brown, J. Clarkson, 
E. Collins, Dahlen, Faber, B. Foster, Fox, Gore, Griffith, Hack, Hartnett, 
Herman, Hill, Jenkins, Kelly, Lyons, Minoso, Pierce, Reuschel, Sandberg, Santo, 
Sheckard, Torriente, Walsh, Wilhelm, Bi. Williams)
1T.  New York - 29 (Berra, Bresnahan, Cone, Connor, G. Davis, Dickey, 
DiMaggio, Ewing, Ford, Gehrig, Gordon, Gossage, Hubbell, Keefe, Keller, 
Lloyd, Mantle, Mathewson, McGinnity, Nettles, Ott, Randolph, Ruffing, 
Rusie, Ruth, Seaver, Terry, Ward, J. Williams)
3.   Philadelphia - 19 (Alexander, Allen, Ashburn, Baker, Carlton,
Cochrane, Delahanty, R. Foster, Foxx, Grove, Hamilton, Magee, Plank,
Roberts, Schmidt, A. Simmons, H. Stovey, Thompson, Waddell)
4T.  Cleveland - 18 (Averill, Boudreau, Burkett, Childs, Coveleski, 
Doby, Feller, W. Ferrell, Flick, Glasscock, J. Jackson, Lajoie, Lemon, 
Sewell, Speaker, Trouppe, E. Wynn, Young)
4T.  St. Louis - 18 (Bell, Boyer, Caruthers, Frisch, B. Gibson, 
Hernandez, Hornsby, Medwick, Mize, Musial, Pike, T. Simmons, Sisler, 
Slaughter, Smith, Suttles, Wallace, Wells)
6.   Boston - 17 (Barnes, Boggs, Clemens, J. Collins, Doerr, Dw. Evans, Fisk, 
McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Smith, Spalding, E. Sutton, White, T. Williams, 
G. Wright, Yastrzemski)
7T.  Detroit - 13 (Bennett, Bunning, Cobb, Crawford, Freehan, 
Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann, Kaline, Newhouser, Stearnes, Trammell, 
Whitaker)
7T.  Pittsburgh - 13 (Beckley, R. Brown, Carey, Clarke, Clemente, 
J. Gibson, Kiner, B. Leonard, Paige, Stargell, Vaughan, Wagner, Waner)
9T.  Baltimore - 10 (Beckwith, Jennings, Keeler, Kelley, McGraw, 
Murray, Palmer, Ripken, B. Robinson, Wilson)
9T.  Brooklyn* - 10 (Campanella, G. Johnson, Pearce, Reese, 
J. Robinson, Santop, Snider, Start, Vance, Wheat)
9T.  Cincinnati - 10 (Bench, Groh, Jones, Larkin, McPhee, Morgan, Rixey, 
F. Robinson, Rose, Roush)
12. San Francisco - 7 (Bonds, Clark, Da. Evans, Marichal, Mays, McCovey, G. Perry)
13. Milwaukee - 6 (Aaron, Mathews, Molitor, Spahn, Torre, Yount)
14T. Kansas City - 5 (Brett, W. Brown, Moore, Rogan, Saberhagen)
14T. Oakland - 5 (Eckersley, Fingers, Henderson, R. Jackson, McGwire)
16. Los Angeles - 4 (Drysdale, Koufax, Piazza, D. Sutton)
17T. Buffalo - 3 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson)
17T. Houston - 3 (Bagwell, Biggio, J. Wynn)
17T. Montreal - 3 (Carter, Dawson, Raines)
17T. Minneapolis/St. Paul - 3 (Blyleven, Carew, Killebrew)
17T. Washington, DC - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, W. Johnson)
22T. Anaheim* - 2 (Grich, N. Ryan)
22T. Arlington - 2 (K. Brown, Palmeiro)
221T. N/A - 2 (F. Grant, Oms)
22T. Providence - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
22T. San Diego – 2 (Gwynn, Winfield)
22T. Toronto – 2 (Alomar, Stieb)
28T. Almendares* - 1 (Mendez)
28T. Atlanta - 1 (Niekro)
28T. Atlantic City – 1 (Lundy)
28T. Darby, PA* - 1 (Mackey)
28T. Denver - 1 (Walker)
28T. Havana - 1 (Dihigo)
28T. Indianapolis - 1 (Charleston)
28T. Louisville – 1 (Browning)
28T. Newark - 1 (Irvin)
28T. Seattle – 1 (Martinez)

* Cities marked with an asterisk could be considered to be part of another city.

2012 Cap Standings by State, Province, Foreign Country (if there is no 
knowm state or province) or U.S. Capital:
1.   New York (42)
2.   Pennsylvania (33)
3T.  Illinois (28)
3T.  Ohio (28)
5.   Missouri (23)
6.   California (20)
7.   Massachusetts (17)
8.   Michigan (13)
9.   Maryland (10)
10.  Wisconsin (6)
11.  Texas (5)
12T. Minnesota (3)
12T. Quebec (3)
12T. District of Columbia (3)
15T. Cuba (2)
15T. New Jersey (2)
15T. Rhode Island (2)
15T. Georgia (2)
15T. Indiana (2)
15T. Kentucky (2)
15T. Ontario (2)
22T. Colorado (1)
22T. Oregon (1)



Note all mentions of Win Shares on plaques are adjusted to 162 games.

All Negro League awards mentioned on the plaques are from John Holway’s The Complete Book of Baseball’s Negro Leagues (Fleet Walker Award = MVP; George Stovey Award = Cy Young Award; Rube Foster Award = Playoff MVP).

Primary positions on the plaques will be distinguished from secondary positions on all plaques by bold type.

Seasons are calculated this way: (Games Played/Team’s Scheduled Games). Each result is added up for each season to get the final number shown on each plaque.

Here are the plaques of the most recent inductees:


Barry Bonds - 2013 - LF
18.8 seasons with Pittsburgh (NL) 1986-1992; San Francisco (NL) 1993-2007
Cap: San Francisco Giants (NL)
Like his godfather Willie Mays, Barry Bonds’ impact on baseball left many in awe. Widely considered as one of the best players of all-time, he was unanimously placed first on every Hall of Merit ballot in his first year of consideration. A great all-around player early in his career who evolved into the most intimidating hitter ever (he has each of the top three and six of the top ten seasons of accumulated intentional walks), Bonds’ name is everywhere in the record books. He led the league in Runs (1992), HR (1993 and 2001, when he established a new single-season record 73), RBI (1993) BB (1992, 1994-1997, 2000-2004, 2006-2007), IBB (1992-1998, 2002-2004, 2006-2007), TB (1993), BA (2002, 2004), OBP (1991-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, 2006-2007, with 2004’s .609 and 2002’s .582 being the top two seasonal OBPs in baseball history) SLG (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004, which includes the MLB record of .863, set in 2001), OPS (1990-1993, 1995, 2001-2004, including the top two marks in history in 2004’s 1.422 and 2002’s 1.381), and OPS+ (1990-1993, 2000-2004, including the top three marks in MLB history, in 2002’s 268, 2004’s 263, and 2001’s 259). His 2004 season was also noteworthy in that he became the first player to have a season with more times on base than at bats (376 vs. 373). Bonds’ individual season dominance added up, as at the time of his induction he ranked in the top ten all-time in PA (9th – 12,606), Runs (3rd – 2,207), TB (4th – 5,796), HR (1st – 762), RBI (4th – 1,996), BB (1st – 2,558), IBB (1st – 688), XBH (2nd – 1,440), AB/HR (3rd – 12.9), times on-base (2nd – 5,599), OBP (6th - .444), SLG (6th - .607), OPS (4th – 1.051), and OPS+ (3rd – 182). Bonds is also the only player in the history of the game to reach the 500 marks in both career HR and career SB. He played on six division winning teams (1990-1992 with Pittsburgh and 1997, 2000, 2003 with San Francisco) and with the wild-card winning Giants in 2002 submitted a World Series performance for the ages, hitting .471/.700/1.294 with 4 HR in a losing effort. He holds the all-time Giants records in BB (1,947), IBB (575) OBP (.447), SLG (.666), OPS (1.143), and OPS+ (199). Fourteen-time All-Star (1990, 1992-1998, 2000-2004, 2007) who won 12 Silver Slugger awards (1990-1994, 1996-1997, 2000-2004), eight Gold Gloves (1990-1994, 1996-1998), and a record seven MVP awards (1990, 1992-1993, 2001-2004).

Roger Clemens - 2013 - P
Boston (AL) 1984-1996; Toronto (AL) 1997-1998; New York (AL) 1999-2003, 2007; Houston (NL) 2004-2006
Cap: Boston Red Sox (AL)
Known as the Rocket for his fiery temperament and overpowering fastball, Roger Clemens is considered by many as the best post-WWII pitcher—if not the best in all of baseball history. A workhorse pitcher who twice struck out 20 batters in a game, Clemens dominated the pitching landscape during his career. He led the league in wins (1986-1987, 1997-1998), winning percentage (1986, 2001, 2004), CG (1987-1988, 1997), SHO (1987-1988, 1990-1992, 1997), IP (1991, 1997), SO (1988, 1991, 1996-1998), ERA (1986, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2005), WHIP (1986, 1992, 1997), ERA+ (1986, 1990-1992, 1994, 1997-1998, 2005), H/9 (1986, 1994, 1998, 2005), SO/9 (1988, 1996, 1998), and SO/BB (1987-1988, 1990, 1992). Clemens was on two World Series winning teams (1999 and 2000 with the Yankees) along with seven other division winners (1986, 1988, 1990, 1995 with Boston and 2001-2003 with New York) and three wild-card winners (2004-2005 with Houston and 2007 with New York). Clemens’ 199 postseason innings are the fourth most all-time and his 173 strikeouts rank third all-time at the time of his induction. In his eight World Series starts, he went 3-0 with a 2.37 ERA and 49 strikeouts. For his career, Clemens ended up with the 9th most wins (354), 16th most innings pitched (4,916.2), third in strikeouts (4,672), seventh in games started (707), and tenth in ERA+ (143). All-time Red Sox leader in wins (192), SO (2,590), and SHO (38). Eleven-time All-Star (1986, 1988, 1990-1992, 1997-1998, 2001, 2003-2005) who won seven Cy Young awards (1986-1987, 1991, 1997-1998, 2001, 2004) and an MVP award (1986).

Mike Piazza - 2013 - C
12.2 seasons with Los Angeles (NL) 1992-1998; Florida (NL) 1998; New York (NL) 1998-2005; San Diego (NL) 2006; Oakland (AL) 2007
Cap: Los Angeles Dodgers (NL)
Considered by many to be the best-hitting catcher in Major League history, Mike Piazza hit like a first baseman while playing the most demanding position on the field. A 62nd round draft pick in 1988, Piazza made all the other teams look like fools for not drafting him in 1993 as he won the Rookie of the Year award by hitting .318/.370/.561 (153 OPS+) with 35 HR and 112 RBI. That rookie season announced Piazza as a force to be reckoned with for a long time, as it was his first of ten seasons wherein he would put up an OPS+ of 135 or better, leading the league in both 1995 (172) and 1997 (185). By the time Piazza retired, he held the record for the most HR (427, 396 while playing catcher) and highest slugging percentage (.545) for a catcher. Piazza hit .412/.545/.941 in the NLCS against the St. Louis Cardinals to help the 2000 wild-card winner New York Mets reach the World Series, and was also on two division winners (1995 Dodgers and 2006 Padres) and two other wild-card winners (1996 Dodgers and 1999 Mets). Twelve-time All-Star (1993-2002, 2004-2005) who won ten consecutive Silver Slugger awards (1993-2002). Has the highest career OPS+ in Dodgers history (160) and highest career SLG in Mets history (.542).

Craig Biggio - 2013 - 2B/C/CF
18.0 seasons with Houston (NL) 1988-2007
Cap: Houston Astros (NL)
A gritty player known for doing whatever it took to help the team, from getting hit by pitches (he led the league five times and has the second-most all-time with 285) to changing positions (he moved from C to 2B to CF to LF back to 2B over his long career), Craig Biggio’s impact on the field was undeniable. In 1992 the Astros moved Biggio from C to 2B in an effort to maximize his odds of being able to play every day and the gamble worked out as he quickly became the best 2B in the National League, a position he would hold throughout the 1990s. A sparkplug at the top of the lineup (one of only eight players with both 3,000 hits and 400 stolen bases), Biggio led the league in games played three times (1992, 1996-1997), PA five times (1992, 1995, 1997-1999), Runs twice (1995, 1997), 2B three times (1994, 1998, 1999) and SB once (1994). An integral member of the “Killer Bs” along with long-time teammate Jeff Bagwell, Biggio spent his entire career with the Astros and was part of four division winners (1997-1999, 2001) and two wild-card winners (2004-2005) making the World Series in 2005 (the first Houston team to win a pennant). At his induction, Biggio ranked in the top 25 all-time in G (16th—2,850), PA (10th—12,504), R (15th—1,844), H (21st—3,060), 2B (5th—668) and times on base (18th—4,505). Seven-time All-Star (1991-1992, 1994-1998) who won five Silver Slugger awards (1989, 1994-1995, 1997-1998) and four Gold Gloves (1994-1997). He holds the franchise record for most G, PA, R, H, TB (4,711), 2B, XBH (1,014), HBP, and times on base.

Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 02, 2004 at 05:37 PM | 1460 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   301. DavidFoss Posted: January 25, 2005 at 04:51 AM (#1100676)
1943 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
11T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
11T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
11T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
11T.Cardinals - 2 (Caruthers, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 2 - (PHill, Torriente)
11T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
11T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
11T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
11T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
11T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
21T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
21T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
21T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
21T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
21T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
21T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
21T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
21T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
21T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
21T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
21T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
21T.Yankees - 1 (Ruth)
   302. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 03:10 AM (#1131315)
hot topics

BTW, thank you for the lists every other week, David!
   303. DavidFoss Posted: February 08, 2005 at 03:23 AM (#1131333)
Yankees & Cardinals -- both two-time defending pennant winners -- each get a cap.

1944 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
12T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
12T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
12T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
12T.Chicago American Giants - 2 - (PHill, Torriente)
12T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
12T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
12T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
12T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
12T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
12T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
22T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
22T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
22T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
22T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
22T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
22T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
22T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
22T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
22T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
22T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
22T.Twins - 1 (WJohnson)
   304. Brent Posted: February 08, 2005 at 05:05 AM (#1131527)
John,

I'd suggest removing the bold from 3B for Frisch. With 1762 games at 2B and 459 at 3B, I think 3B can be considered a secondary position for him over the course of his career.
   305. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 08, 2005 at 03:03 PM (#1132297)
I'd suggest removing the bold from 3B for Frisch. With 1762 games at 2B and 459 at 3B, I think 3B can be considered a secondary position for him over the course of his career.

I'm glad you caught that, Brent. It wasn't my intention to highlight 3B, but only 2B.
   306. OCF Posted: February 09, 2005 at 04:58 AM (#1133650)
12T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)

In terms of average quality of a team's enshrinees, there's really only one direction to go from here, right?
   307. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: February 22, 2005 at 03:04 AM (#1158288)
hot topics
   308. DavidFoss Posted: February 22, 2005 at 05:21 AM (#1158581)
I had today off of work, so I completely forgot that today was a "results" day.

Chicago American Giants become first NeL team with 3 caps. Senators get another cap, leaving the Browns and the 5-time World Champion Red Sox as the only franchises of the pre-expansion 16 with just one cap.

1945 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Athletics - 3 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank)
7T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
7T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
7T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
7T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   309. yest Posted: March 06, 2005 at 03:56 AM (#1183279)
Willie Foster - 1907 – P

John isn't that supposed to be 1945
   310. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 06, 2005 at 08:34 AM (#1183660)
John isn't that supposed to be 1945

Yup!

Yeah, I screwed up. :-) I use Billy Hamilton's plaque as my template for the newer plaques (which explains the date).

I'm glad somebody is keeping an eye on me. :-)
   311. yest Posted: March 06, 2005 at 06:06 PM (#1184001)
maybe you should add RF (he played 170 games there)to Goose Goslin's plaque
   312. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 08, 2005 at 02:25 AM (#1186859)
I need to expand the Plaque Room again because I'm running out of room. A couple of the older plaques were cut off because of the addition of the Goslin and Foster plaques. I'll have them restored no later than tomorrow.
   313. DavidFoss Posted: March 08, 2005 at 03:14 AM (#1186971)
The Athletics finally catch up to the mighty Buffalo Bisons.

1946 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2T. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
2T. Cubs - 7 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, KKelly, Sheckard)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
6T. Athletics - 4 (FBaker, Cochrane, Plank, Simmons)
6T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
8T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
8T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
8T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
8T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   314. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 02:25 AM (#1210375)
hot topics
   315. DavidFoss Posted: March 22, 2005 at 02:25 AM (#1210376)
There's movement in the top five! Cubs alone in second and the A's are tied for fourth.

1947 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
8T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
8T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
8T. Tigers - 3 (Cobb, Crawford, Heilmann)
8T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
24T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
24T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
24T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
24T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
24T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
24T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
24T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
24T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
24T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
24T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
24T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   316. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 02:28 AM (#1210380)
The newest plaques are also up.
   317. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:03 AM (#1210412)
27% of the HoMers so far have been pitchers, FWIW.
   318. yest Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:30 AM (#1210441)
Retired with the Athletics’ season records for most runs (152 in 1930), hits (253 in 1925), doubles (53 in 1926) and AB (670 in 1932); as well as the Athletics’ career records for BA (.356), total bases (2.998), RBI (1,178), XBH (655) and hits (1,827).

what's this doing on Lefty Grove's plaque?
   319. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 22, 2005 at 03:42 AM (#1210457)
what's this doing on Lefty Grove's plaque?

It's called a mistake, yest. :-)

That was Simmons info. I used his plaque as my template, but I missed that data for deletion.
   320. Paul Wendt Posted: March 28, 2005 at 03:31 PM (#1220772)
the Browns and the 5-time World Champion Red Sox as the only franchises of the pre-expansion 16 with just one cap.

This active club enjoyed the services of Cy Young, Tris Speaker or Babe Ruth in every aught or teen season.

--
There is no good place for me to publish these research findings (cough, cough) so let it be here. The 1920s count is a big surprise to me.

Number of pitchers among Win Shares leaders by decade
Years Top50 Top10
1880s - 21 - 10
1890s - 18 - 4
1900s - 20 - 4
1910s - 12 - 2
1920s - 19 - 3 !
1930s - 12 - 2
1940s - _9 - 1
1950s - _7 - 2
1960s - _6 - 0
1970s - _9 - 1
1980s - _3 - 0 (29 stieb, 44 morris, 46 quisenberry)
1990s - _7 - 1

The threshold number of Win Shares in-decade ranges from 125 in the 1940s to 157 in the 1890s.

Who is a pitcher? My call. Dave Foutz but not Monte Ward.
   321. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: March 28, 2005 at 03:51 PM (#1220806)
There is no good place for me to publish these research findings (cough, cough) so let it be here.

How about on the Pitcher thread (which can be found with the Positional threads), Paul?
   322. yest Posted: March 31, 2005 at 07:58 PM (#1225713)
John whenever possible can you add league leaders to the early plaques so it dosn't look like players like Barnes, Connor, Clarkson ext. never or hardly led their league in anything.


maybe you should add RF (he played 170 games there)to Goose Goslin's plaque
   323. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 05, 2005 at 12:44 AM (#1232560)
hot topics

yest, I did a few plaques. Hope to do more in the future.
   324. DavidFoss Posted: April 05, 2005 at 01:09 AM (#1232585)
1948 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 9 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
9T. Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
9T. Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
9T. Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
9T. White Sox - 3 (ECollins, Faber, Walsh)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   325. yest Posted: April 05, 2005 at 02:36 PM (#1233167)
Retired with the major league record for consecutive 200-hit seasons (5)

Willie Keeler has the record I'm assuming you mean post 1900
   326. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 11, 2005 at 02:38 AM (#1246691)
I made the correction to Gehringer's plaque, yest. I also added all the league leaders for the 19th Century players missing them.
   327. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 19, 2005 at 12:05 AM (#1268330)
hot topics
   328. DavidFoss Posted: April 19, 2005 at 01:07 AM (#1268723)
The combatants in the 1917 World Series (the last White Sox championship) each get a cap. The Giants extend their cap lead.

1949 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
10T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
10T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
10T.Pirates - 3 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   329. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: April 19, 2005 at 01:18 AM (#1268789)
Thanks, David!
   330. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 12:17 AM (#1305634)
If someone can go over Dihigo's plaque and mention any problems or things missing, I would sincerely appreciate it. His plaque was difficult to obtain info for.
   331. DavidFoss Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:21 AM (#1305871)
1950 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4T. Athletics - 5 (FBaker, Cochrane, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
4T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
4T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
13T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
13T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
13T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
13T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
13T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
13T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
13T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
13T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
13T.Twins - 2 (Goslin, WJohnson)
13T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   332. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:34 AM (#1305922)
As a starting point for Dihigo, in 1932-34 he was mostly playing in Venezuela, and the team name was the Concordia Eagles. I don't remember what he was doing in 1937 (Dominican Republic?), but he seems to have started seriously in Mexico in 1938. I assume his Mexican teams are known, they just weren't listed with the stats provided there. I think he was listed as winning 4 MVPs in Cuba, although I don't know if those were official awards or not.
   333. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:43 AM (#1305959)
As a starting point for Dihigo, in 1932-34 he was mostly playing in Venezuela, and the team name was the Concordia Eagles.

According to Riley, it was of minor league status (the same thing with Santo Domingo in '37). Can anyone verify that?
   334. Brent Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:48 AM (#1305983)
If someone can go over Dihigo's plaque and mention any problems or things missing, I would sincerely appreciate it.

The Mexican League play began in 1938 I believe

I guess we generally don't list winter league teams, but playing in Cuba was such an important part of his career that I think it deserves mentioning. (If you decide you would like to list the Cuban teams, I can put together a list.) Maybe a couple of sentences like the following:

Martín Dihigo also played winter baseball for 22 years in the Cuban League for 22 years, where he holds the all-time records for career wins and complete games. He led the Cuban League in many hitting and pitching categories many times and received 4 MVP awards. (Note - they were official awards, I believe given by writers, and began in 1927-28. Dihigo was the first winner.)

Also, it might be worth mentioning that he led the Mexican League in both batting average and pitching percentage in 1938, and performed the same feat in Cuba in 1935-36.

Also, I think we've decided to show accent marks in the names of Latin American players, so there should be an accent over the "i" in Martín.
   335. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:50 AM (#1305990)
Also, I think we've decided to show accent marks in the names of Latin American players, so there should be an accent over the "i" in Martín.

That's a definite mistake. I'll have that corrected right away.
   336. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 02:02 AM (#1306053)
BTW, should it be Martín Dihigo or Martín Dihigo Llanos?
   337. Devin has a deep burning passion for fuzzy socks Posted: May 03, 2005 at 02:18 AM (#1306149)
Well, John, you're the arbiter of the Plaque Room, so I'll defer to your judgement. I would tend to say though, that if it's in the middle of a player's career, and he chooses where he wants to play, we should recognize that this is where his career took him. He may have been playing in a minor league, but presumably he's playing at a major league level, so why leave it out of his 'official record'? It's especially true when these distinctions are being made 50 years after the fact.

If Gavvy Cravath winds up getting elected, it will obviously be in part because of the numbers he put up in the minor leagues. Does it make sense, then, to turn around and not mention it on his plaque?

I know this would cause complications for you, and I'm not going to make a federal case out of it, but I'd rather see the teams listed, with some sort of minor-league designation, than have the gaps in the record.
   338. Brent Posted: May 03, 2005 at 02:26 AM (#1306210)
According to The Pride of Havana his full name was Martín Magdaleno Dihigo Llanos (where the first two are given names and the last two are surnames), but the standard shortened version was Martín Dihigo, so I would stick with that.

Before we leave Dihigo, I thought I'd mention that the "Negro Leagues in a Box" section of the NBJHBA lists Dihigo and Jelly Gardner as having the "best outfield arm." (Torriente is also mentioned as a possible candidate.)
   339. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 02:50 AM (#1306286)
According to The Pride of Havana his full name was Martín Magdaleno Dihigo Llanos (where the first two are given names and the last two are surnames), but the standard shortened version was Martín Dihigo, so I would stick with that.

But should we? Roberto Clemente is now Robert Clemente Walker on his HOF plaque, so maybe we should go with the three names instead of two.

I know this would cause complications for you, and I'm not going to make a federal case out of it, but I'd rather see the teams listed, with some sort of minor-league designation, than have the gaps in the record.

I agree. I'll fix it up tomorrow.

I'll also follow Brent's suggestion and add Dihigo's Cuban years. That was an oversight of mine.

BTW, I'm not the final arbiter, Devin. Joe is. :-)
   340. Brent Posted: May 03, 2005 at 03:19 AM (#1306364)
But should we? Roberto Clemente is now Robert Clemente Walker on his HOF plaque, so maybe we should go with the three names instead of two.

I didn't know that about Clemente. My Spanish language is of the 40-year-ago high school variety, and I don't have much knowledge of Latin American culture other than having read a couple of books, so I'd recommend that someone more knowledgeable than me give their opinion.
   341. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 01:44 PM (#1306889)
I didn't know that about Clemente. My Spanish language is of the 40-year-ago high school variety, and I don't have much knowledge of Latin American culture other than having read a couple of books, so I'd recommend that someone more knowledgeable than me give their opinion.

Maybe Eric Enders could help us out in this department.
   342. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 02:03 PM (#1306927)
I updated Dihigo's plaque using almost all of the suggestions.

BTW, should his cap be the Cuban Stars (East)? Are there championship teams that I can add outside of NeL baseball? Besides his first Cuban MVP in 1927, what were the other years that he was honored?

Thanks for your help, guys!
   343. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 03, 2005 at 07:11 PM (#1307723)
Maybe Eric Enders could help us out in this department.

...and he has! He says the mother's maiden name is comparable to a middle name, so I won't add it to Dihigo's or Torriente's plaques.
   344. Brent Posted: May 04, 2005 at 02:46 AM (#1309370)
Are there championship teams that I can add outside of NeL baseball?

From Cuba, Dihigo played for the following championship teams:

1926-27 - Habana
1927-28 - Habana
1928-29 - Habana
1930 fall (special season) - Almendares
1935-36 - Santa Clara
1936-37 - Marianao
1940-41 - Habana
1943-44 - Habana
1945-46 - Cienfuegos

Besides his first Cuban MVP in 1927, what were the other years that he was honored?

Dihigo won MVPs for 1927-28, 1935-36, 1936-37, 1941-42. For a listing of other Cuban League leading categories, see the Dihigo thread # 102.
   345. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 04, 2005 at 03:31 PM (#1310112)
Thanks, Brent!
   346. Gary A Posted: May 04, 2005 at 04:55 PM (#1310472)
Dihigo's Mexican League pennant-winners:

1937: Aguila (played in Veracruz)
1938: Aguila (Veracruz)
1940: Azules de Veracruz (confusingly enough, this team actually played in Mexico City)
1942: Union Laguna (Torreon)
   347. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 04, 2005 at 05:28 PM (#1310572)
Thanks, Gary!
   348. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 12:05 AM (#1341348)
New plaques up!
   349. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:05 AM (#1341573)
What a RIPOFF! We HAVE to have an objective rule about who gets to wear what hat. SOX have now been ripped off on Young, Speaker, Ruth, Foxx and Cronin. Ruth and Speaker were developed by the Sox, while Cronin wasn't developed by the Senators and spent far more time with the Sox than he did with the Senators. Looked at rationally, Ruth, Cronin and Speaker should ALL be Red Sox; you now have the ridiculous position of a team with 6 World Championships in 48 years (counting 1904) but only one HOMer. Washington have got the Big Train; Cronin may have been mediocre but he's OURS!!!
   350. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:15 AM (#1341607)
What a RIPOFF! We HAVE to have an objective rule about who gets to wear what hat.

We do. Whichever team he had the most value at, that's the team cap he gets. There's no way in this universe that you can argue that Foxx or Cronin had more value as a Bosox than with the A's or the Sentaors.

SOX have now been ripped off on Young, Speaker, Ruth, Foxx and Cronin.

I hope this is hyperbole or joking around, because there's no reason for me to rip off anybody's favorite team here.
   351. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:20 AM (#1341627)
Ruth and Speaker were developed by the Sox, while Cronin wasn't developed by the Senators and spent far more time with the Sox than he did with the Senators.

That's an objective rule? That's looks like changing the goal posts to me, karlmagnus. :-)

The idea that Ruth would have anything other than a Yankee cap is laughable.
   352. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:22 AM (#1341635)
Foxx a Red Sock? No way. Cronin was close enough that I was waiting until Monday PM to see which it would be.

The Red Sox have indeed lost their share of these races, though. They are tied with the Browns/Orioles for last place amongst the "original sixteen". If someone posted a list with "fractional caps" the Sox would fare much better.
   353. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:27 AM (#1341649)
Cronin was close enough that I was waiting until Monday PM to see which it would be.

It wasn't as clear cut as Foxx, granted, but he was definitely the better player as a Senator, plus had the pennant.
   354. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:27 AM (#1341651)
The Athletics move to all alone in 4th place and the Senators/Twins get a cap for their pennant-winning player-skipper and owner's son-in-law.

1951 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 10 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
14T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
14T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
14T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
14T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
14T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
14T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
14T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
14T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   355. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:39 AM (#1341682)
The Cronin verdict is an OUTRAGE! Don't forget he was Boston's GM for decades, and Boston sponsored him for President of the American league. And while we're at it I would point out that Barnes, McVey, Spalding, Wright Sutton and O'Rourke played for the Boston Red Stockings, and would certainly not have wanted to be exiled to a disease-ridden rebel railway yard that had been burned to the ground by General Sherman and had only just stopped being called Terminus. Calculate it with the arithemtic of righteousness, and the Red Sox have TWELVE caps!! :-))
   356. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:45 AM (#1341696)
Oh, and Providence is practically a suburb of Boston, and Old Hoss Radbourn had a usage pattern in 1884 that was to become only too typical of the Red Sox, q.v. 1967 (Lonborg) and 1946 (the entire rotation.)
   357. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:48 AM (#1341702)
Don't forget he was Boston's GM for decades, and Boston sponsored him for President of the American league.

But that has absolutely zip to do with his HoM plaque.

Hell, if I wanted to be even sillier than you, I could give him a cap for every AL team that was in existence while he was AL president. :-)
   358. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:55 AM (#1341725)
But that has absolutely zip to do with his HoM plaque.

Indeed, several people have asked why Spalding does not have a Chicago cap because he ran the team for so many years, but he only played there for 2 years (1 year pitching).
   359. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:57 AM (#1341730)
Actually dammit I'm not being silly, I just checked. Cronin came up with the Pirates, so they have a claim, but played 50 games for them, 940 for Washington and 1134 for Boston. His best OPS+ year with a full season was 1941, not one of his Washington years. It's not really even close; he's a Boston Red Sox. I repeat, we need an objective rule and not this random and arbitrary decision making.
   360. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:06 AM (#1341757)
I repeat, we need an objective rule and not this random and arbitrary decision making.

I'm letting you know right now that this is starting to piss me off. Point to one decison of mine (some of the earlier caps were Joe's decisions) where the cap I gave a player is not where he had the most value as a player. You may not like that standard, but it's a standard that I have strictly adhered to.

Cronin came up with the Pirates, so they have a claim, but played 50 games for them, 940 for Washington and 1134 for Boston.

Great, then you have the audacity to claim a cap for Ruth? Did Ruth play more games in Boston or have more pennants? Wait, he started his career with Boston. OK, in that case, Cronin gets a Pirate cap. Happy?
   361. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:24 AM (#1341825)
If that was your standard, I would be; Sox would then get Ruth and Speaker. If we talk World Series/pennants, Sox would get Cy Young. If your standard is most value, then you have an uphill struggle convincing me that Cronin, who played 21% more games for the Red Sox, had most value with the Senators. Even if WS/WARP says he did, those are shaky metrics, that are subject to substantial and ongoing revision; by all conventional metrics of games, hits, runs etc. he did more with the Red Sox.

I am not being unfriendly, but object to being called silly when I make a serious point in a humorous way.
   362. jimd Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:40 AM (#1341907)
Using (WARP) value, Cronin is a very close call between Washington and Boston, but he's a Senator.

However, there has been multiple standards applied though (by different administrators at different times). By value, Deacon White is definitely a Brave (it's not close). The Buffalo hat was at his request, and it's clear that if the same standard was applied here, Cronin would be a Red Sock.
   363. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:13 PM (#1342818)
I am not being unfriendly, but object to being called silly when I make a serious point in a humorous way.

I used "silly" after you posted #36 and #37 and mentioned giving Red Sox caps to all of the old Red Stockings and Old Hoss Radbourn (unless you were serious?) I also used an emoticon after my sentence so that you would know I was in jest. Obviously, you misread my sentiment.

But I object to your post #30 that started this whole thing. Was that fair, karlmagnus? Couldn't you have expressed your opinion a little bit better? With all of your exclamations, somebody would have thought I was selling your family into slavery.

BTW, are their any caps that you disagree with that should be for another team besides the Bosox? I'm trying to be fair to everyone's favorite team, so that's why I picked the standard of finding the team that the player had the most value with.

If that was your standard, I would be; Sox would then get Ruth and Speaker.

No, value means what he did on the field for his team. Does anyone here actually think that Ruth contributed more on the field as a Red Sox than as a Yankee? I suspect you're the only one, karlmagnus (maybe in the universe :-).

If we talk World Series/pennants

That's a different standard now. I only use pennants or World Series if it's close.

However, there has been multiple standards applied though (by different administrators at different times). By value, Deacon White is definitely a Brave (it's not close). The Buffalo hat was at his request, and it's clear that if the same standard was applied here, Cronin would be a Red Sock.

I disagreed with that at the time, too. I didn't think it was fair to the Braves who derived the most value from his services. I think that was the only one since '98 that I disagreed with, BTW.

But how do we handle a player's wishes. Wade Bogg's wishes were to have a Tampa Bay Devils cap, but I doubt anyone here would suggest that.

Many old Philadelphia A's didn't want a cap from that team because of Mack, but is that fair to fans of that franchise? Is it historically correct?

But if the electorate wants a different standard, I'm fine with that. Make your opinions known. But it can't be "well, we give the cap for the team that he started with (especially if it's my team), unless he played more games with the team that I like" floating standard. It has to be consistent and fair, but not a way to get more caps for your favorite team.
   364. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 01:17 PM (#1342825)
Gary A posted this originally:

John, a couple of small things for Bullet Rogan: he also led in strikeouts for 1921 and 1923, and wins in 1923. Holway does list the Monarchs with the best record in 1931, but notes that St. Louis officially won the pennant. In 1937, on the other hand, Cincinnati is listed with the best overall record, but the Monarchs were awarded the first-half title, with no second-half champion known--and I think the Monarchs are usually considered the pennant winner for that year. So I'd say list 1937 instead of 1931 as one of his championship teams.

Also, his 1924/25 Almendares team won the Cuban League pennant (the only year Rogan played in Cuba).

If it matters he played in the East-West All-Star Game in 1936, which gives him one actual all-star appearance in addition to his virtual ones.


Thanks for the heads up, Gary. I'll have it corrected sometime this week.
   365. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:00 PM (#1342886)
John, if the standard is pennants, Sox get Young, if it's developing players they get Ruth and Speaker, and if it's value they get Cronin. It doesn't matter which standard you use, but you can't give Cronin to Washington for 1933 without giving Young to Boston for 1903/04. If WARP happens currently to give Cronin marginally to Washington, so what? -- they change it pretty well once a month. The reality was that he played much more for Boston and devoted the great majority of his career to the fortunes of the Boston club. He's not my favorite guy, but he's a Boston icon, whereas even living round DC and reading the WaPo every day I've never heard him claimed as a Washington icon (Big Train the Griffiths and Frank Howard are the most frequently claimed names there.)

Sorry about #30; it was meant to be a jocular squawk, but it obviously came out wrong.
   366. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:23 PM (#1342922)
It doesn't matter which standard you use, but you can't give Cronin to Washington for 1933 without giving Young to Boston for 1903/04.

But I'm not giving Cronin the cap for '33. I've mentioned I use pennants only as a tiebreaker. The pennant is only icing on the cake for him, as far as I'm concerned.

As for Young, he was the better player in Cleveland. That's why he is wearing that cap.

If WARP happens currently to give Cronin marginally to Washington, so what? -- they change it pretty well once a month.

I was actually using Win Shares. It's close, but he was more durable, plus a better hitter and defender, in DC. He did more there than in Boston with less PA. At any rate, I haven't heard anyone here suggest it's a slam dunk for Boston.

The reality was that he played much more for Boston and devoted the great majority of his career to the fortunes of the Boston club.

Personally, he could have played 400 years at Boston, but if he was a better player in Washington, then he should be wearing the latter team's cap, IMO. Of course, if he played 400 years in Beantown, I'd be shocked if he didn't have the greater value there. :-D

As for his career as a GM and manager, that should play no part as to what cap he wears. The only thing that we are constitutionally required to do is to look at what he did as a player, nothing more.

But if the majority of the electorate can make a compelling and fair case that Cronin should belong with a Boston cap, I'll change it.

Sorry about #30; it was meant to be a jocular squawk, but it obviously came out wrong.

No problem. Next time, IM me. I can handle it a hundred times better if I'm being ambushed in front of only one person than the whole electorate. :-)
   367. Evan Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:24 PM (#1342925)
Well, if we just go by which team they got the most HITS for...
   368. Evan Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:25 PM (#1342927)
<ducks>
   369. Howie Menckel Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:38 PM (#1342950)
I never really understood the whole 'cap' thing, to be honest.

Wouldn't it be more interesting to get a sense of which franchises had a lot of players?
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.
That way no one gets stuck on the 'all or nothing' conundrum of 'capping.'
   370. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:52 PM (#1342970)
Wouldn't it be more interesting to get a sense of which franchises had a lot of players?
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.
That way no one gets stuck on the 'all or nothing' conundrum of 'capping.'


I have no problem with that, Howie, except I would still go with value over just playing time. Carlton Fisk played far more games as a Chisox, but he was more valuable as a Bosox (and he played on a pennant winner). Therefore, he should get more credit for his Boston years, IMO (take that, karlmagnus! :-D)
   371. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2005 at 02:57 PM (#1342984)
Wouldn't it be more interesting to get a sense of which franchises had a lot of players?
If a guy played 45 pct of his games with the Red Sox, you give them 45 pts. If he played 35 pct with the Senators, they get 35 pts. And so on, maybe not counting below 10 pct if it seems tedious.


Someone posted this once 20-30 "years" ago. I don't know exactly where that post is anymore.
   372. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:08 PM (#1343006)
Fisk played 1078 as a Red Sox and 1421 as a White Sox, but if you'll guarantee that he'll go in as a Red Sox I'll gladly trade you Cronin for him -- a somewhat better player and a MUCH nicer guy! Also an icon in Boston but I think not really in Chicago, although I haven't lived in Chicago.
   373. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:15 PM (#1343022)
Fisk played 1078 as a Red Sox and 1421 as a White Sox, but if you'll guarantee that he'll go in as a Red Sox I'll gladly trade you Cronin for him -- a somewhat better player and a MUCH nicer guy!

If I'm still doing this, Fisk will be wearing a Boston cap. I promise. :-)
   374. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:22 PM (#1343042)
Sounds a good deal. If Speaker hadn't won the 1920WS with Cleveland I'd be arguing about him based on these precedents, but he did so I have to conclude regretfully that I don't have a case. I don't think there are any more marginal Sox HOMers (Clemens is ours, right?) so now I have to concentrate on the Sox marginal HOMers -- Doerr, Evans and Rice are a MUST (presume you'd give Stephens to St Louis anyway, so not worth a big battle!)

:-))
   375. DavidFoss Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:23 PM (#1343045)
jimd: Page 3 -- #73 this thread

Re: Hats.

I would point out that if one did "fractional hats" (splitting the hat proportional to the number of seasons as a regular by the player with that team), the Braves are ahead roughly 6.5 to 6.1 over the Giants. The Braves have lost a number of close calls over the years (White, Clarkson, Hamilton, Collins though they did win O'Rourke).


Whoops... no one has done the whole thing. This was the post I was remembering. Maybe I'll try some WS-weighted ranking some rainy saturday or something. Would have to improvise with the NeL, NA, and pre-NA, though.
   376. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:27 PM (#1343054)
Oh, and then there's Boggs, who's probably the right side of the line in both directions, and Tiant, who's probably VERY marginal in both directions ....:-))
   377. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:37 PM (#1343076)
I don't think there are any more marginal Sox HOMers (Clemens is ours, right?)

Without a doubt. Not even close.

If Speaker hadn't won the 1920WS with Cleveland I'd be arguing about him based on these precedents, but he did so I have to conclude regretfully that I don't have a case.

But I gave Speaker the Cleveland cap because he just had much more value there. He played a many more games and was still as great there as he was at Boston (unlike Cronin and Young in Boston or Fisk in Chicago). I didn't even need to look at pennants or WS for a tiebreaker.

(presume you'd give Stephens to St Louis anyway, so not worth a big battle!)

It's closer than you would think, but I would give it to St. Louis.
   378. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:40 PM (#1343086)
Oh, and then there's Boggs, who's probably the right side of the line in both directions, and Tiant, who's probably VERY marginal in both directions ....:-))

Boggs gets the Bosox cap easily. Same goes for Luis.
   379. karlmagnus Posted: May 17, 2005 at 03:46 PM (#1343110)
Luis looks close to me. He never won anything with Cleveland, but he had his best year there, although the IP is 1774/1200 in favor of Boston. Worth a battle then; he's Rixey with a slightly shorter career but a much more exciting peak.
   380. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 22, 2005 at 06:37 PM (#1354308)
Gary A:

I made those corrections to Rogan's plaque for you.

If you spot any other errors or errors of omission, please let me know. Holway and Riley are sometimes contradictory, so it's hard trying to ascertain what is correct or not.
   381. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2005 at 12:54 AM (#1372336)
New plaques are ready.

I'll have to expand the Plaque Room again because of lack of space sometime this week.
   382. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: May 31, 2005 at 02:12 AM (#1372512)
The Plaque Room is fully functional again.
   383. DavidFoss Posted: May 31, 2005 at 04:31 AM (#1372795)
Josh Gibson gives the legendary Homestead Grays their first cap and Mel Ott helps the Giants open up a big lead.

1952 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
7T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
7T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
7T. Tigers - 4 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Heilmann)
7T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
14T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
14T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
14T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
14T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
14T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
14T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
14T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
14T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
14T.Yankees - 2 (Gehrig, Ruth)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   384. Paul Wendt Posted: June 02, 2005 at 01:04 AM (#1375449)
The current roster (99 total) includes: Pete Alexander,

Only 98 are listed. I double-checked by copying the list to a text editor and counting the commas automatically: 96.

Bill Terry is out of alphabetical order.
   385. DavidFoss Posted: June 02, 2005 at 01:32 AM (#1375588)
Only 98 are listed.

Mel Ott is missing from the big bold list at the top.

I double-checked the cap list and there are 99 of those.
   386. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 02, 2005 at 04:13 AM (#1376089)
Mel Ott is missing from the big bold list at the top.

Corrected. Thanks!
   387. DavidFoss Posted: June 02, 2005 at 10:26 PM (#1377741)
Thanks John. The other minor quibble is that as Paul said in #65, Terry & Thompson should be switched on the list so that its alphabetical.
   388. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 03, 2005 at 01:49 PM (#1379168)
Thanks, guys!
   389. jingoist Posted: June 03, 2005 at 10:42 PM (#1380133)
I find it curious that the Giants are credited with 11 members of the HoM and the Yankee's only 2 over the same period of time (HoM votes for years 1898 to 1952) yet the Yankees have enjoyed much more on-field success when compared to the Giants over that period of time: Yanks 11 WS wins + 4 AL Pennants versus 7 WS wins and 9 pennants (I even gave the Giants credit for WS wins before the Yanks even existed).
One would think such a disproportionate share of HoM level talent would have suggested that the Giants win many more WS than the actually did.
Anyone care to speculate why that is?
   390. DavidFoss Posted: June 03, 2005 at 11:10 PM (#1380167)
Re: Giants vs Yankees

A few factors occurring here.

-- The Yankees got a very late start. They were the last of the original 16 to get a cap. No random star players before Ruth.

-- The Giants only won two pennants in the 19th century despite having all-star-like rosters through much of the 1880s. They also lost 4 WS in the 1910s.

-- With Mize most likely a Cardinal, Dickey/Dimaggio should close the gap a bit. It will be 5-4 in the 20th century after that.
   391. DavidFoss Posted: June 03, 2005 at 11:17 PM (#1380188)
Also, some of this stuff is just random.

I love seeing the short-lived Buffalo Bisons high up on the list (and they could have easily added O'Rourke as well!). I consider it a rite of passage when an established franchise finally passes them. The Bisons never finished higher than 3rd.

The Phillies are up there as well and don't have a storied history as well. Their famed HOM outfield never went never finished higher than 3rd.
   392. jimd Posted: June 04, 2005 at 12:28 AM (#1380320)
yet the Yankees have enjoyed much more on-field success when compared to the Giants over that period of time:

There is also a definite time-lag to the process. Players make their maximal impact contributions around age 26-30 (usually), but then aren't eligible for election until 15-20 years later. We are just now electing the top stars from the championship teams of the 30's. The top stars of the 1952 Yankees won't hit the ballot until the late 60's/early 70's.

versus 7 WS wins

(Nitpick alert ;-) Only 6. Won in 1888, 1889, 1905, 1921, 1922, 1933. Lost in 1911, 1912, 1913, 1917, 1923, 1924, 1936, 1937, 1951 on the field; refused to play in 1904 so the Red Sox successfully "defended" their title.
   393. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: June 04, 2005 at 12:47 AM (#1380375)
One reason the Yankees were so good is that they always had a ton of second tier guys, players like Hoyt, Combs, Lazzeri, Henrich, Selkirk, Pennock, Shocker, Skowron, Reynolds, etc. Having 3-6 guys like this on your team helps you win a ton of ball games but none of them are really HOM material.
   394. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: June 04, 2005 at 12:51 AM (#1380388)
Something that I always foiund interesting is taht despite their dominance an all-time Yankee pitching staff sint' terribly impressive. The only guy I would expect to make the HOM is Ford, maybe Guidry, Hunter, and Cone. A five man pitching staff made up of only guys who played significantly with the Yankees pales in comaprison to a siimilar list of Red Sox, Braves, Giants, Cubs, even the Phillies look better (Carlton, Schilling, Roberts, Bunting, Alexander).
   395. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 14, 2005 at 12:39 AM (#1402251)
New plaques up and ready.
   396. Michael Bass Posted: June 14, 2005 at 12:44 AM (#1402269)
The aforementioned "Yankee gap" begins to close, a process which is going to keep on going for the next 20 years at this point.
   397. DavidFoss Posted: June 14, 2005 at 01:10 AM (#1402321)
The Yankees & Tigers captured 11 straight American League pennants from 1934-1943 (and 12 of 14 from 1932-1945). Bill Dickey and Hank Greenberg's careers spanned this entire period.

1953 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
5T. Tigers - 5 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann)
8T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
8T. Pirates - 4 (Carey, Clarke, Wagner, PWaner)
8T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
11T.Yankees - 3 (Dickey, Gehrig, Ruth)
15T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
15T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
15T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
15T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
15T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
15T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
15T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
15T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
   398. DavidFoss Posted: June 14, 2005 at 01:11 AM (#1402323)
whoops... I got the 12 of 14 right, but it was "only" ten straight. Impressive nonetheless.
   399. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: June 28, 2005 at 12:19 AM (#1435356)
New plaques are up.

BTW, if anyone can point out what years Willie Wells (or any other Negro Leaguer) played in the East-West game, I would greatly appreciate it.
   400. DavidFoss Posted: June 28, 2005 at 12:29 AM (#1435395)
Arky Vaughn helps the Pirates into the top five and by alphabetical accident, Willie Wells helps the Stars enter at the bottom of the list.

1954 Franchise Cap Standings

1. Giants - 11 (Connor, GDavis, Ewing, Hubbell, Keefe, Mathewson, McGinnity, Ott, Rusie, Terry, Ward)
2. Cubs - 8 (Anson, TFBrown, Clarkson, Dahlen, Gore, Hartnett, KKelly, Sheckard)
3. Braves - 7 (Barnes, McVey, Nichols, O'Rourke, Spalding, ESutton, GWright)
4. Athletics - 6 (FBaker, Cochrane, Foxx, Grove, Plank, Simmons)
5T. Indians - 5 (Coveleski, Flick, JJackson, Lajoie, Speaker)
5T. Phillies - 5 (Alexander, Delahanty, Hamilton, Magee, Thompson)
5T. Pirates - 5 (Carey, Clarke, Vaughn, Wagner, PWaner)
5T. Tigers - 5 (Cobb, Crawford, Gehringer, Greenberg, Heilmann)
9T. Buffalo Bisons - 4 (Brouthers, Galvin, Richardson, DWhite)
9T. White Sox - 4 (ECollins, Faber, Lyons, Walsh)
11T.Cardinals - 3 (Caruthers, Frisch, Hornsby)
11T.Chicago American Giants - 3 - (WFoster, PHill, Torriente)
11T.Twins - 3 (Cronin, Goslin, WJohnson)
11T.Yankees - 3 (Dickey, Gehrig, Ruth)
15T.Baltimore Orioles (NL) - 2 (Keeler, Kelley)
15T.Brooklyn Atlantics - 2 (Pearce, Start)
15T.Brooklyn Royal Giants - 2 (HRJohnson, Santop)
15T.Cleveland Spiders - 2 (Burkett, CYoung)
15T.Dodgers - 2 (Vance, Wheat)
15T.New York Lincoln Giants - 2 (Lloyd, SJWilliams)
15T.Providence Grays - 2 (Hines, Radbourne)
15T.Reds - 2 (Groh, McPhee)
23T.Baltimore Black Sox - 1 (JWilson)
23T.Cleveland Blues - 1 (Glasscock)
23T.Cuban Giants - 1 (FGrant)
23T.Cuban Stars - 1 (Dihigo)
23T.Detroit Stars - 1 (Stearnes)
23T.Detroit Wolverines - 1 (Bennett)
23T.Homestead Grays - 1 (JGibson)
23T.Indianapolis ABC's - 1 (Charleston)
23T.Kansas City Monarchs - 1 (Rogan)
23T.Orioles - 1 (Wallace)
23T.Philadelphia Athletics (AA) - 1 (Stovey)
23T.Philadelphia Giants - 1 (RFoster)
23T.Red Sox - 1 (JCollins)
23T.Saint Louis Brown Stockings (NA/NL) - 1 (Pike)
23T.Saint Louis Stars - 1 (WWells)
Page 4 of 15 pages  < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 >  Last ›

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