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Sunday, December 10, 2006

Tony Perez

Eligible in 1992.

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2006 at 11:16 PM | 24 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 10, 2006 at 11:20 PM (#2257365)
Don't know where PAY-rez (as McCarver pronounces his surname) belongs in my system yet. The third base part of his career may help him out in the very end.
   2. Michael Bass Posted: December 11, 2006 at 12:11 AM (#2257426)
While looking up numbers to complain about Rose's selfishness as manager, I noticed that Perez eeked out a 137 OPS+ in 200 PA that year, one last shot at glory, at age 43. In fact (limited sample size alert!) his .328 batting average that year was the best of his career!

On a side note, he seems to have been a pretty good defender, both at 3rd and first. In fact, he was good enough at 3rd, that I find myself wondering why they moved him off for the immortal Denis Menke. Theoretically, had he stayed at 3B for another 5 years, would he be a sure fire HOMer?
   3. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 11, 2006 at 12:18 AM (#2257432)
Theoretically, had he stayed at 3B for another 5 years, would he be a sure fire HOMer?

His HoM case would be certainly much greater than it is now, Michael. He would be in Darrell Evans territory, which is a pretty good area to be in.
   4. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: December 11, 2006 at 05:09 AM (#2257648)
Agreed about 3B with both John and Michael. Appears to have been decent at 3B and to have coupled his years there with many of his best offensive years. That really helps him out. The rest isn't so great, and so he's a borderliner's borderliner. I'm ambivalent.
   5. Jim Sp Posted: December 18, 2006 at 07:29 PM (#2264371)
bump bump bump

copying 1992 ballot comments:

I also realize I did not comment on Tony Perez. Yes, he is top 25 in career RBI. George Van Haltren would be top 25 in runs scored if he hadn't spent three years on the mound. Yes, he didn't actually achieve the black ink, but I doubt we would we hold it against Brooks Robinson's value if he played a few years at shortstop, and in so doing failed to set a record for most games played at 3B. Tony Perez (and Staub) is Jake Beckley-lite; I cannot see putting Doggie near the same spot as the Jakester.

Even here may be too high. 2732 hits at 122. TB+BB/PA .502, TB+BB/Outs .731.

34th all-time in total bases, no black ink – the weight of his career totals push him above what otherwise looks like a definitional bubble candidate’s resume.

I could have hit 20 homers and driven in 90 rbi’s a year with Rose, Morgan, Bench, etc surrounding me.

19.3 bWS/700 PA, 3 MVP, 11 AS. I like Cepeda a bit better, although they are close.


I'm getting a disturbing feeling that the electorate is evaluating Perez purely as a hitter with little defensive value.

Perez's five peak years were spent playing 3B, and reasonably well at that. Which I would argue gives him a heck of a peak of the "Ron Santo" type.

Somehow the Perez thread only got 4 posts, I think we've got to give him a closer look than that.
   6. Juan V Posted: December 18, 2006 at 07:58 PM (#2264392)
I gotta take another look at him, since this discussion has turned the Beckley vs Keller battle for the last spot on my ballot into Beckley vs Keller vs Perez. I´m starting to think this could be career vs peak vs prime, which is making me lean towards Perez, but I want to read more first.
   7. Steve Treder Posted: December 18, 2006 at 08:10 PM (#2264402)
Appears to have been decent at 3B

"Decent" would be at the upper end of consistent with the contemporary assessment of Perez's defense. "Adequate" would be another way of putting it. But no one ever considered him as anything close to a "good" fielding third baseman. In 1970 and '71, he was often replaced for defense in the late innings if the Reds had the lead, with Perez sliding over to first base.

And, "PAY-rez" is the correct Espanol pronunciation. Well, actually a rolled "r" would be more correct.
   8. TomH Posted: December 18, 2006 at 08:14 PM (#2264407)
I always pegged Doggie as a mediocre 3B; why would the Reds have moved him to 1B early on? Win Shares seems to agree, but BP has Perez as a good 3Bman for a few years. Any other metrics / opinions?
I have Tony at about 25; if I were convinced his D was better, he would move up some. As a played with somewhat limited defensive value, I cannot rank him even with Bob Johnson or Reggie Smith.
   9. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: December 18, 2006 at 08:24 PM (#2264415)
And, "PAY-rez" is the correct Espanol pronunciation. Well, actually a rolled "r" would be more correct.

You do know that you're agreeing with McCarver, right? :-)
   10. OCF Posted: December 19, 2006 at 01:40 AM (#2264600)
I haven't voted yet, largely because I haven't yet placed Tony Perez. Let me see if this helps:

Vernon 63 57 39 32  27 21 20 20 20 19  18 16 13  1  0 ----9-24
Perez  64 52 44 43 27 27 27 26 25 21 15 15 14  5  2  0 
-------7
Staub  61 55 48 46 43 38 34 30 19 15 14 13 12 11 11  6  5  4  2  0 
---


Not sure if it helps me that much. Perez and Staub have a lot of low-value hang-around time. Vernon is inconsistent and has holes in the middle of his career. (The * are for 1944 and 45 - in light of his inconsistency, they might be optimistic.)

Games played:
.       3B/CF 1B    L/RF DH/PH Total
Vernon        2237     4  168   2409
Perez    761  1778     0  238   2777
Staub     11   426  1679  850   2951 


That is a pretty significant difference for Perez. (Note: I dumped his 2B in with the 3B - it's just one game, anyway.)
   11. Jim Sp Posted: December 19, 2006 at 02:27 AM (#2264640)
In 1970 and '71, he was often replaced for defense in the late innings if the Reds had the lead, with Perez sliding over to first base.

He played 8 games in 1970 at 1B, that's not often.
   12. Cblau Posted: December 19, 2006 at 03:17 AM (#2264669)
Strat-O-Matic had him as a "4" at third base, at least in 1970. (That's the worst rating.)
   13. Steve Treder Posted: December 19, 2006 at 03:32 AM (#2264681)
He played 8 games in 1970 at 1B, that's not often

Oh, please.

He played 8 games in 1970 at 1B. He also played 44 games at 1B in 1971, upon 143 played by Lee May, as well as 148 games for Perez at 3B, which is obviously a case of Perez relieving May in late innings. Ya think?

In 1970, Perez played 153 games at 3B. Woody Woodward played 20, Jim Stewart played 9, Hal McRae played 6, Darrel Chaney played 3, Jay Ward played 2, and Johnny Bench played 1. That adds up to a total of 194, within a schedule of 162, which means there were many games, up to a maximum of 32, in which the Reds replaced their third baseman mid-game. Considering the reality of the situation, there is no way to conclude that replacement of Perez for defense in late innings didn't occur many times.
   14. BDC Posted: December 19, 2006 at 03:50 AM (#2264691)
Actually, Perez was slud over from third to first a total of four times in 1970. He was spelled defensively at third in the late innings 24 other times, 12 of them coming in September, after the Reds had opened up a 10-game lead on LA.

In 1971, Perez moved from third to first in the course of a game 35 times, however, and lifted outright 25 other times.

Love that B-Ref PI :)
   15. Mark Shirk (jsch) Posted: December 19, 2006 at 03:53 AM (#2264694)
Slud!

I like that word.
   16. Daryn Posted: December 19, 2006 at 03:55 AM (#2264696)
I love it when guesswork gets replaced with actual facts.
   17. Steve Treder Posted: December 19, 2006 at 04:18 AM (#2264716)
He was a 4 in 1969 too. I think Lee may was a 3 at first base but my memory could be failing me.

Pete Rose was the only 1 the Reds had, in rightfield. The Braves had 3 1's-Aaron, Boyer and Millan.


1969 Reds:
1B: May 3
2B: Helms 2
SS: Woodward 3, Chaney 3
3B: Perez 4
RF: Rose 1
CF: Tolan 3
LF: Johnson 4
C: Bench 1

1970 Reds:

1B: May 3
2B: Helms 2
SS: Concepcion 3, Woodward 3
3B: Perez 4
RF: Rose 1
CF: Tolan 2
LF: Carbo 3
C: Bench 1

1969 Braves:

1B: Cepeda 2
2B: Millan 1
SS: Jackson 3, Garrido 3
3B: Boyer 1
RF: Aaron 1
CF: Alou 3, Gonzalez 3
LF: Carty 4
C: Didier 2
   18. DavidFoss Posted: December 19, 2006 at 04:39 AM (#2264743)
Actually, Perez was slud over from third to first a total of four times in 1970. He was spelled defensively at third in the late innings 24 other times, 12 of them coming in September, after the Reds had opened up a 10-game lead on LA.

And most of the games he was lifted earlier in the year were blowouts.

And yes I do love that B-R PI! :-)

(1971 was different... they did replace May with Concepcion quite a bit -- shifting Perez to 3B. By 1972, May was gone and Perez was full-time 1B)
   19. Howie Menckel Posted: December 19, 2006 at 04:57 AM (#2264761)
I vaguely remember Perez at 3b, he did seem like he was faking it a bit, but if done plausibly it is a big help.

No doubt that Perez cannot simply assimilated into our 1B-OF slag heap without some sort of bonus. Many of our contenders could barely play corner OF, so a guy who can even play a modest 3B deserves some props.
   20. Steve Treder Posted: December 19, 2006 at 06:14 AM (#2264797)
While we're at it, what the hell:

1968 Reds:

1B: May 3
2B: Helms 2
SS: Cardenas 2
3B: Perez 3
RF: Rose 1
CF: Pinson 2
LF: Johnson 4
C: Bench 2

1971 Reds:

1B: May 3
2B: Helms 2
SS: Concepcion 4, Woodward 3
3B: Perez 4
RF: Rose 1
CF: Foster 3
LF: Carbo 4
C: Bench 1

1972 Reds:

1B: Perez 3
2B: Morgan 2
SS: Concepcion 3, Chaney 3
3B: Menke 2
RF: Geronimo 1, Foster 3
CF: Tolan 2
LF: Rose 1
C: Bench 1
   21. JPWF13 Posted: December 19, 2006 at 06:39 PM (#2265107)
I vaguely remember Perez at 3b, he did seem like he was faking it a bit, but if done plausibly it is a big help.


I have no recollection of him at 3B- if he played a passable 3b for a few years it would change my impression of him somewhat- said imopression being that he may have been the most egregiously overrated player of the 70s.

If you watched TWIB, or NetWork baseball on the weekends- or the postseason- you heard ad nauseum about how he was the best RBI man in baseball- the clutchest hitter around- how he drove in 90+ runs every year...

For instance- in 1975 he drove in 109 runs- 3rd in the league
he hit behind- Pete Rose (210 hits), Joe Morgan (.466 OBP, 67/77 in SB) Ken Griffey (.391 OBP- briefly one of the 5 fastest men in baseball before he hurt his knees)- Batting 4th in that lineup is not so impressive

In 1976 he drove in 91 runs - batting behind Rose (215 hits- 130 runs )Griffey (.401 OBP) and Morgan (.444 OBP)
Perez batted 4/5 most of the first half- was demoted to 5/6th in the second half [oh my god is BBREF awesome]- and still in the playoffs the Perez worship continued unabated

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