Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Hall of Merit > Discussion
Hall of Merit
— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best

Sunday, July 09, 2006

Vada Pinson

Eligible in 1981

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2006 at 07:30 PM | 217 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Related News:

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 > 
   1. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2006 at 07:39 PM (#2093101)
If he had an OPS+ 10 points higher, he would be an easy choice for the HoM. As it is, the man certainly is a viable candidate.
   2. sunnyday2 Posted: July 09, 2006 at 10:42 PM (#2093426)
Too quick of a decline...look up precipitous in the dictionary and they talk about Pinson.

I remember when people thought that Bobby Tolan was the next Vada Pinson, but his decline was even more so.

Still Pinson will probably make my top 75. Good player.
   3. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 09, 2006 at 11:34 PM (#2093478)
Pinson's two years older than listed on B-R, no? Back in the late 1970's I heard a scout say Pinson had the quickest bat he'd ever timed. Not that either of these things affect his candidacy.
   4. Daryn Posted: July 10, 2006 at 01:49 AM (#2093648)
If he had an OPS+ 10 points higher, he would be an easy choice for the HoM. As it is, the man certainly is a viable candidate.

Isn't Al Oliver Vada Pinson with an OPS+ 10 points higher? I don't see Oliver as an easy choice for the Hall of Merit.
   5. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: July 10, 2006 at 04:28 AM (#2093851)
In the early/mid 1950s, one Reds scout working the black neighborhoods of Oakland signed Frank Robinson, Curt Flood, and Vada Pinson. That was a pretty good scout.
   6. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 10, 2006 at 12:52 PM (#2093975)
Isn't Al Oliver Vada Pinson with an OPS+ 10 points higher? I don't see Oliver as an easy choice for the Hall of Merit.

Except Oliver played half the amount of games at CF that Pinson did. Not as good, either. Not to mention the many games at first and DH for Al.
   7. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 10, 2006 at 02:31 PM (#2094062)
Except Oliver played half the amount of games at CF that Pinson did. Not as good, either. Not to mention the many games at first and DH for Al.

Not to mention that, off the top of my head, I don't think Oliver ever had seasons as good as Vada's best.

Today Pinson's nickname would, of course, be Darth.
   8. sunnyday2 Posted: July 10, 2006 at 03:44 PM (#2094132)
Darth Pinson?
   9. Steve Treder Posted: July 10, 2006 at 04:05 PM (#2094155)
In the early/mid 1950s, one Reds scout working the black neighborhoods of Oakland signed Frank Robinson, Curt Flood, and Vada Pinson. That was a pretty good scout.

Far more credit should be given to George Powles, the coach at McClymonds High. The scout fell into a pot of gold.

The same high school at the same time produced Bill Russell.
   10. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 10, 2006 at 04:14 PM (#2094169)
Darth Vada
   11. sunnyday2 Posted: July 10, 2006 at 04:54 PM (#2094202)
>Darth Vada

I guess that's a Bahston joke.
   12. Paul Wendt Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:03 PM (#2094213)
Pinson's two years older than listed on B-R, no?

Really? As I recall Robinson's biography, lo-ong ago, Pinson was a freshman when he was a senior, which does fit the listed three year age difference and would make any two-year revision a surprise.
While it's possible that retrosheet and baseball-reference have both missed a revision, please assume not and write to the SABR Biographical Research Committee if you have evidence for a 1936 birth date (or 1937).
   13. Steve Treder Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:13 PM (#2094225)
Really? As I recall Robinson's biography, lo-ong ago, Pinson was a freshman when he was a senior, which does fit the listed three year age difference and would make any two-year revision a surprise.

Pinson's age has always looked a bit suspicious in light of his very quick development and early decline. And it's certainly the case that a lot of families migrating from the rural black south into Oakland in the 1930s/40s, as did those of Pinson and Robinson, didn't necessarily have the most complete and reliable birth certificates for their kids. It isn't all that hard to imagine Pinson staying back a year or two in school, and/or fibbing about his age in order to gain an advantage in school sports.

It's all conjecture on my part, but I don't find the idea implausible in the least.
   14. DavidFoss Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:13 PM (#2094226)
BaseballLibrary lists Pinson with a 1936 birth date.

Pinson at BBlibrary

Every other site I've seen uses 1938, though.
   15. Hack Wilson Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:22 PM (#2094237)
I've always wondered about the stories that the Reds traded Robinson because he was a bad influence on Pinson.
   16. sunnyday2 Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:25 PM (#2094242)
Never heard that but, if true, does that qualify as an oops?
   17. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:46 PM (#2094267)
I guess that's a Bahston joke.

It is pronounced VAY-duh, right? Not Vah-dah?

But more importantly, Sunnyday, you've unwittingly walked into a massive northern New England contretempes!

I live in Maine. Accusing me of a telling a joke from the Boston POV would be like my accusing you of making a joke from the Iowan's POV. And given how Massholes drive, maybe worse.... [sorry Paul W!]

; )
   18. Steve Treder Posted: July 10, 2006 at 05:57 PM (#2094278)
I've always wondered about the stories that the Reds traded Robinson because he was a bad influence on Pinson.

By 1965, I don't think that was the case any more. When they were both younger, the Reds were quite intimidated by both Robinson and Pinson, inner-city Bad Negroes. And they always thought Pinson's work habits weren't the best.
   19. sunnyday2 Posted: July 10, 2006 at 08:22 PM (#2094404)
Contre-what?
   20. jingoist Posted: July 10, 2006 at 10:17 PM (#2094516)
contretempes.
Is that a part-time Contre?
   21. JPWF13 Posted: July 10, 2006 at 10:25 PM (#2094526)
t's all conjecture on my part, but I don't find the idea implausible in the least.


I'm pretty sure that the short bio on Pinson in the 1988/89 Total Baseball stated that Pinson turned out to be two years older than commonly believed while he was playing- I don't recall if they gave any backup on that assertion
   22. bads85 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:20 PM (#2103712)
Pinson finished his career with 321 Win Shares, which is a very good opening argument for the Hall of Merit.

Career Win Shares of Hall of Fame CFers

Cobb 722
Mays 642
Speaker 630
Mantle 565
DiMaggio 387
Snider 352
Carey 351
Hamilton 337
Ashburn 329
Pinson 321
Roush 314
Duffy 295
Puckett 281
Averill 280
Doby 268
Waner 245
Combs 227
Wilson 224

In terms of Career Win Shares, Pinson rates pretty favorably with other center fielders in the Hall. He isn’t anywhere close to the Immortals, but he ranks higher than eight center fielders already in. However, some of the CF selections are dubious at best, and saying “Well, Player X is better than [insert mistake selection] is a specious argument for HOF worthiness. Still, Pinson’s career worth is solid in terms of Hall of Merit.

Best 10 Year WS Best 5 Year WS

Cobb 404 230
Mantle 399 228
Speaker 388 215
Mays 385 204
DiMaggio 315 170
Snider 289 175
Hamilton 283 158
Griffey 278 155
Doby 257 152
Averill 258 146
Ashburn 257 139
Puckett 253 155
Duffy 251 144
Roush 250 147
Carey 247 134
Pinson 246 140
Wilson 220 152
Combs 217 132
Waner 208 125

Pinson drops a bit in the peak categories, but isn’t that far off the middle of the pack guys. After a schedule adjustment, he is slightly ahead of Kirby Puckett’s ten year peak (rough adjustment for Pinson: 259 WS. He’d still be behind Puckett in the five year peak (rough estimate: 147 WS).

While Pinson’s peak argument is not a slam dunk by any means, it still should not be dismissed. When combined with his career, it makes a strong case for the Hall of Merit. However, Pinson never received more than 15.69 percent of the Hall of Fame vote. While that was good enough to keep him on the BBWAA ballot for fifteen years, it still kept him well away from Cooperstown. Why?

Much of the Hall of Fame voting has to do with perception, and perception is often driven by other things than career and peak values. Pinson’s career fade did nothing to help that perception, nor did his abysmal post season performance, but there are other measuring sticks those certainly detract from Pinson’s case.

The first is Pinson’s lack of individual awards. Despite be a great defensive player early in his career, Pinson only won one Gold Glove. He only made the all Star team twice. He was arguably robbed out of the Rookie of the Year Award by the Willie McCovey sentiment. McCovey put up a 189 OPS+ during his rookie year, but he only played in 52 games. Pinson had 27 Win Shares that year while McCovey only had twelve, yet McCovey received every vote. Pinson had two MVP worthy years, but had the misfortune to have those years when other players dwarfed his performance. As a result, he never finished higher than third in the MVP voting.

Secondly, Pinson played in a time in which other awesome outfielders roamed. In his peak, he wasn’t even the best outfielder on his team; Frank Robinson (519 Career Win Shares) was. Plus, there were guys with the last name of Mays (642 WS), Aaron (643), Kaline (443 WS), and Clemente (377 WS) playing then. Guys like Reggie Jackson (444 WS) and Dave Winfield (415 WS) were playing when Pinson was on the ballot. The BBWAA often lumps outfielders together, which is a disservice to center fielders. Pinson was almost an afterthought to these guys.

Perception is also fueled by local sports writers. When Pinson was in Cincinnati, he was ridden pretty hard early in his career by Red’s beat writer Earl Lawson usually about not bunting enough. Pinson took a swing at him in 1962, and Lawson swore out a warrant for his arrest. The two had another physical altercation later. Lawson had more than one run in with Reds’ players over the years, including Johnny Temple and Clay Carroll. However, Lawson was a pretty stand up guy, who was reputed to never let his personal feelings affect his writing and judgment about players.

Still, Lawson was also covering the Reds in the time of the Big Red Machine, a team loaded with fine players who won championships. These guys overshadowed Pinson, and as a result, Pinson’s greatness was diminished in the minds of many locals, including the media. I don’t know if this was the case with Lawson, but Pinson didn’t exactly have locals promoting him during his Hall votes. Much emphasis had shifted to Pete Rose and Tony Perez getting their due.

Shortly after Pinson left Cincinnati, Pinson broke his leg and was never the same ballplayer. As a result, he was a disappointment in his new environs, and people there weren’t too enamored with his past. This certainly shaped the perception of Pinson in his post-Reds’ career.

Another thing that affected the perception of Pinson is that the baseball world wasn’t quite sure what to think of a speedster/slugger. While Willie Mays had established himself as a player with two special gifts, people thought of Mays as a one of a kind type player. Most managers, writers, and fans didn’t know what to think of guys who possessed speed and power. Should they use their speed in a traditional manner, forgoing power, or should they forgo speed to swing for the fences? A very large contingent still believed that little ball was the way the game should be played, so they resented Pinson choosing power over speed. Bobby Bonds faced this same backlash. As a result, both players were undervalued a bit because perception dictated that they should be a different type of player. Pinson doesn’t fare well on the Black Ink Test, nor was he recognized as a great of his time. Only making two All Star teams is a pretty damning condemnation of how he was perceived when he played, whether he was worthy or not to be in more. Still, as time has passed, he is a solid candidate for the Hall of Merit -- at least according to Win Shares.
   23. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:34 PM (#2103731)
Great stuff bads . . . one minor nit to pick . . .

On the All-Star Games . . .

"Only making two All Star teams is a pretty damning condemnation of how he was perceived when he played, whether he was worthy or not to be in more."


I see the point, but Robin Yount only made 3 All-Star Games, and we all thought of him as great at the time - I know because I was there :-) I agree with what you are saying, generally. But just because a player didn't make a lot of All-Star teams doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't well thought of, in and of itself.
   24. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:39 PM (#2103740)
BTW, I really like Al Oliver. I'm probably biased though, because his best year was with the 1982 Expos . . . arguably the most disappointing team of my baseball fan career. Either them or the 1983 Expos or 1987 Yankees. But it wasn't Al's fault.
   25. bads85 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:41 PM (#2103742)
But just because a player didn't make a lot of All-Star teams doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't well thought of, in and of itself.


Very good point. I certainly overstated my case in regard to All Star perception.
   26. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:48 PM (#2103753)
BTW, what's the thought on Pinson's defense? I would think that's pretty important to a 111 OPS+ that's SLG heavy CF candidate.

FRAA doesn't like it much, -36 for his career. It does show 1961 (his GG year) as his best year outside of the 1970 aberration with Cleveland, but even so, his 1961 is just +5; which makes me think he won it with his bat and because his team won the pennant. He gets an A- from WS, which is the same as (just plucking a few names that I'm eyeballing from the WS book) Wally Berger who was -27 FRAA, Al Bumbry +39, Cesar Cedeno -26, Dwayne Murphy +7, Roy Thomas 18, Edd Roush -28.

That tells me he was probably no better than an average CF overall. Not a knock, average, even a little below average CFs still have + defensive value compared to all other positions.
   27. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 18, 2006 at 08:51 PM (#2103758)
One other thing on Pinson, I know his total WS are pretty solid (I generally think of 300+ as a positive, below that I need some other reason to push a guy forward), but he had a longer career (10403 PA) than just about everyone on the list. When you figure replacement level needs to be subtracted out, Pinson takes a bigger hit than most on the career totals board.
   28. Mike Emeigh Posted: July 18, 2006 at 09:09 PM (#2103777)
He was arguably robbed out of the Rookie of the Year Award by the Willie McCovey sentiment.


According to a Joe Reichler article in the LA Times, dated March 29, 1959 and entitled "Rookie Parade of 1959".

The best youngster in the Reds' camp is outfielder Vada Pinson but he is not eligible for rookie honors because he appeared in 27 games as a Red last year.


So if Pinson was robbed by anything (as Bill James has argued), it was a poorly-defined eligibility rule.

Interestingly enough, the Reichler article included NL candidates Ron Fairly (the consensus choice, according to Reichler), Jim O'Toole, Sparky Anderson (!), Ernie Broglio, Bob Gibson, and Julio Gotay. McCovey was not mentioned, probably because no oen thought he'd be needed with reigning ROY Cepeda ahead of him. The AL list had Johnny Callison mentioned as the consensus choice, with other rookie candidates including Clete Boyer, Pumpsie Green, Bob Allison (who actually won the award), and Claude Raymond.

Pinson started the 1958 season with the Reds, and in his first week hit a GSHR off Pittsburgh's Ron Kline to win a game. According to an Arthur Daley article in the NYT on March 17, 1959, Pinson admitted that the GSHR got him off the track, and that he started trying to hit for distance rather than just playing his game. He was optioned to Seattle on May 13, about a month into the season, and didn't come back until September. Daley wrote this:

...the boy hit a solid .343 for Seattle - only eleven homers - and now is back in the big time.


The usage of "the boy" in that sentence was reflective of the era, of course, but it was kind of jarring when I read it.

-- MWE
   29. bads85 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 09:35 PM (#2103802)
So if Pinson was robbed by anything (as Bill James has argued), it was a poorly-defined eligibility rule.



You are correct -- according to the Baseball Library, Pinso nwas ineligible for ROY is 1959 because he exceeded 90 ABs the previous year. Excuse the sloppiness on my part.
   30. bads85 Posted: July 18, 2006 at 09:44 PM (#2103812)
One other thing on Pinson, I know his total WS are pretty solid (I generally think of 300+ as a positive, below that I need some other reason to push a guy forward), but he had a longer career (10403 PA) than just about everyone on the list. When you figure replacement level needs to be subtracted out, Pinson takes a bigger hit than most on the career totals board.



Without a doubt his career numbers take a hit for his lenghty playing time - -his WS/648 PA was 20.0, well down the list. However, he still had solid ten year numbers according to Win Shares. The question is how much focus should be spent on the years past his prime? Certainly, they padded his Career Win Shares, but I don't think enough to disqualify him from a HOM discussion.
   31. OCF Posted: July 18, 2006 at 11:10 PM (#2103883)
I don't think enough to disqualify him from a HOM discussion.

He's eminently qualified for discussion - no quarrel with that sentiment. But as part of that discussion, I couldn't get him past Roush, Van Haltren, and Duffy. One other thing about Win Shares: since they partition actual wins, they scale essentially linearly with season length. Pinson played the majority of his career in the time of 162-game seasons. Roush in 154 (mostly), GVH, Duffy, and Ryan with a good number of 130-140 game seasons in their careers.

Also, one minor point about your HoF based charts: L.Waner, Combs, and H.Wilson aren't worth much as soldiers in a HoM argument, since they dropped out of sight long ago. (Well, Wilson still draws a vote, but he's not a serious candidate.) Carey, Averill, Roush, Duffy - those are fair points of comparison, but do watch out for season length.
   32. jimd Posted: July 19, 2006 at 01:22 AM (#2104098)
And given how Massholes drive, maybe worse

Mainiacs are no bargain either.

Darth Vada

In-A-Gada-Da-Vada

(ducks ;-)
   33. Dr. Chaleeko Posted: July 19, 2006 at 11:44 AM (#2104447)
Mainiacs are no bargain either.
But only because so many Massholes have moved up here to Southern Maine, taken a Maine plate, and tarnished our driving reputation! (says the guy who's lived in Maine for one whole year!!!!)
   34. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: July 19, 2006 at 11:48 AM (#2104448)
Remember to scale WS by decisions, not games OCF, very important. Tons of rainouts back then. Teams could play 157 games but only have 151 decisions, things like that pop up all over the place.

Also Roush's big year was in a short season, the Reds had only 140 decisions in 1919.
   35. kim pinson Posted: July 09, 2007 at 03:14 AM (#2434341)
August 11 2007 is my dad birthday. If he was still alive he would be turning 69 this year.
   36. kim pinson Posted: July 09, 2007 at 03:22 AM (#2434346)
I know there is away to get my father in cooperstown. A lot of people say it is to late. I do not think so. My father has been gone for over 11 years and people are still talking about him. there is something that has to be done and my family is trying to fine the way. You do not stay in the sport all your life and do not get the final award.
   37. OCF Posted: July 09, 2007 at 03:30 AM (#2434354)
Ms. Pinson:

We welcome your interest. I would hope that you, and any other family members of baseball players who happen to find our site, don't take offense at our occasionally cold-hearted statistics-based comparisons of one player to another. As it happens, this group has found Jimmy Wynn to be a better candidate for our Hall of Merit than your father - but that doesn't mean we don't know that he had a fine career.

One detail: in post #35, you are stating that he was born in 1938. If you look up at the earlier part of this thread, you will notice some uncertainty as to whether his date of birth was 1938 or 1936.
   38. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2007 at 03:53 AM (#2434373)
I would hope that you, and any other family members of baseball players who happen to find our site, don't take offense at our occasionally cold-hearted statistics-based comparisons of one player to another.


Nor, hopefully, a couple of negative posts based on anecdotal evidence. Since many of us didn't see him in his prime (I remember him after '72 myself), all evidence, good or bad, needs to be sifted through.

If you have anything to offer us that would help your father's case, please feel free to do so.
   39. kim pinson Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:41 PM (#2434939)
No offense taken.I understand what this program is all about.By all means keep discussing my dad's career. That could help us.
   40. kim pinson Posted: July 09, 2007 at 07:44 PM (#2434941)
Oh discuss the Golden Glove that is still sitting in my mother's house. How did that come to be?
   41. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2007 at 08:25 PM (#2434970)
It can also be argued that he deserved another one in 1967, Kim. Considering the number of quality center fielders from your father's era, two Gold Glove-caliber seasons is nothing to sneeze at. :-)
   42. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: July 09, 2007 at 08:30 PM (#2434975)
I was about 7 living in Cincy when Pinson broke in. I was a huge FRobby fan already. I went to a knotholer day and sat right in front of Bob Purkey as he described how he threw the different pitches, so he was my 2nd fave. Vada was a close third; I thought that he would be as good as Frank. Most of what I knew I heard on the radio or read in the papers. Not many games were televised and with 5 sisters and a father who cared nothing about any sport, my control of the TV was rare indeed.

I was a precocious reader and read the sports page word by word at that age. I always sensed some palpable fear of Robinson. I think Cincy didn't know how to deal with a "proud Negro"; you know the words that I would have overheard some of the adults used. It was very much a Southern city; I can still hear the harsh epithets that my Grandmother used. Fortunately, my father broke away from that upbringing and really stressed the equality of all people and to never call people names. That was a pretty rare stance in our white, middle-class neighborhood.
   43. Toledo66 Posted: August 06, 2007 at 01:38 AM (#2472900)
I hope Kim Pinson reads this note , Vada Pinson is the best ballplayer not in the Hall of Fame !
i am the biggest fan of Vada PInson ,it is documented that from 1959-67 he was one the top players in both leagues !!!
his numbers were very good from 59-67 !!! overshadowed by winning teams , and players like Flood , Brock , Clemente , F. Robinson, etc
i think it hurt Vada when Frank Robinson was traded in 66 to Baltimore, I think his numbers went down significantly after Frank was traded, the Reds made the dumbest trade of all time .
I know Vada Pinson and Frank Robinson were the heart of the Reds, and mgt didnt like black players influence on the younger players, especially Pete Rose .
Pete once said that Frank Robinson and Vada Pinson were the only players that spoke to him in his early years !!

I always wondered if Frank Robinson could help his old buddy out and promote Vada for the Hall !!!!!
thats what i would ask Kim Pinson if she reads this -- get Frank to help the cause too !
   44. sunnyday2 Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:33 AM (#2473137)
Pinson was a very very nice player, though his peak and prime didn't last long enough for HoF or HoM status. All-time CF based on a combo of peak and career. I don't rate active players.

1. Cobb
2. Mays
3. Speaker
4. Mantle
5. Charleston
6. DiMaggio
7. Stearnes
8. Snider
9. Puckett
10. Dawson

11. Hamilton
12. Torriente
(small hall in/out line here)
13. Browning
14. Hines
15. Roush
16. Carey
17. Wilson
18. Gore
19. Doby
20. Duffy

21. Murphy
22. Averill
(big hall in/out line here)
23. Ashburn
24. Berger
25. Lynn
26. Pete Hill
27. Cool Papa Bell
28. Pinson
   45. Jeff K. Posted: August 06, 2007 at 02:38 AM (#2473167)
Vada Pinson is the best ballplayer not in the Hall of Fame !

No.
   46. Toledo66 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:18 AM (#2474461)
Vada Pinson 2,757 hits , 305 SB 256 hr 457 2bs 2 all star ,all subjective anyway allstar games in 60s.
again from 59-67 one of the best , Speed and power that was Pinson.

Best Centerfielders in 60s top 6 !!

1. WILLIE MAYS
2. VADA PINSON
3. Paul Blair
4: Curt Flood
5. WILLIE DAVIS
6. Mickey Stanley
   47. sunnyday2 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 02:34 AM (#2474513)
Mickey Mantle?
   48. Jeff K. Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:09 AM (#2474642)
Mickey freaking Stanley?
   49. Mike Webber Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:19 AM (#2474675)

Best Centerfielders in 60s top 6 !!

well top 10 in RCAP
CAREER
1960
-1969
CF
GAMES 
>= 500

RCAP   RCAP G  
1 Willie Mays  425  1498   
2 Mickey Mantle   356   745   
3 Jimmy Wynn   127   792   
4 Matty Alou    71   588   
5 Vada Pinson   67  1384   
6 Tony Gonzalez 47   926   
7 Paul Blair    19   702   
8 Mack Jones  4   625   
9 Tommie Agee   
-1   599   
10   Don Lock   
-2   793 


again from 59-67 one of the best

CAREER
1959
-1967
CF
GAMES 
>= 400

RCAP   RCAP G  
1 Willie Mays  441  1384   
2 Mickey Mantle   399   889   
3 Vada Pinson  111  1408   
4 Al Kaline  97   550   
5 Jimmie Hall   53   453   
6 Tony Gonzalez 49   716   
7 Jimmy Wynn    48   487   
8 Paul Blair    15   411   
9 Albie Pearson 10   446   
10   Don Lock    9   694 


What is interesting to me about that list is that Al Kaline played 550 games in center, who knew?
   50. Toledo66 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:21 AM (#2474683)
thats right Mickey Stanley - Detroit Tigers CF
1968 World Champs
MANTLE WAS THRU BY 63
   51. Toledo66 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:25 AM (#2474710)
sorry maybe Mantle should be higher--
Pinson doesnt look so bad after all
   52. Jeff K. Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:45 AM (#2474780)
Pinson doesnt look so bad after all

For a cherrypicked 8 year period, he's the 3rd best at his position in one stat. Pardon me if that doesn't scream "Best player not in the Hall."
   53. Howie Menckel Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:46 AM (#2474782)
Well, Stanley played SS in the 1969 World Series, I recall that.

And he was a 90 OPS+ hitter for his career, where average would be 100.
So he's a well below-average hitter mostly playing the outfield, and the 1968 Series is when he played SS.

At least you're moving up Mantle a little.
He didn't embarrass himself out there.
   54. Howie Menckel Posted: August 07, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2474843)
SS in "1968."
of course

Hell, I remember my Amazin' Mets in 69....
   55. Jeff K. Posted: August 07, 2007 at 04:07 AM (#2474849)
And he was a 90 OPS+ hitter for his career, where average would be 100.

Career WARP-3 of 30, I might add.
   56. sunnyday2 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 04:19 AM (#2474886)
Mantle may have been "thru" by '63 (maybe not). Unless "best of the '60s" is limited to guys who played 1960-69, so what? He still had more value in the '60s than Pinson did.

Pinson doesn't look so bad after all.

But he's still only about 7th or 8th best CF not in the HoF.
   57. DavidFoss Posted: August 07, 2007 at 03:35 PM (#2475234)
Mantle may have been "thru" by '63 (maybe not).

Near-MVP in 1964. Should have won in my opinion. Monster Series that year as well. That's one MVP (1962) and three near-MVP's (1960-61,64) in the 1960s. The "decline" was in full swing by 1965 and he was at 1B by 1967.

...I realize the original point was likely that he's thought mostly as a "1950s player"...
   58. Toledo66 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 06:09 PM (#2475400)
ok - If Pinson is not deserving who is ??

dont tell me - Jimmy Wynn, Richie Allen, are ahead of PINSON
   59. DavidFoss Posted: August 07, 2007 at 06:30 PM (#2475423)
ok - If Pinson is not deserving who is ??

dont tell me - Jimmy Wynn, Richie Allen, are ahead of PINSON


You missed those discussions. Have you seen our Plaque Room? Allen went in right away (not really "comparable" to Pinson because he played a different position) and Wynn went in after a few years.
   60. Jeff K. Posted: August 07, 2007 at 06:45 PM (#2475439)
You missed those discussions. Have you seen our Plaque Room? Allen went in right away (not really "comparable" to Pinson because he played a different position) and Wynn went in after a few years.

He's talking about the actual Hall of Fame, so in his case, Wynn and Allen aren't in. And yes, Toledo, they are ahead of him. Don't take this to mean I'm a HoM voter, because I'm not.
   61. sunnyday2 Posted: August 07, 2007 at 06:57 PM (#2475447)
Well, actually, I am a HoM voter and I have Pinson ahead of Jimmy Wynn....
   62. Toledo66 Posted: August 08, 2007 at 12:06 AM (#2475826)
Thanks, im new here on the seen, im just passionate about VADA PINSON # 28 getting in the HOF .
   63. yest Posted: August 08, 2007 at 03:21 PM (#2476846)
Well, actually, I am a HoM voter and I have Pinson ahead of Jimmy Wynn....

I have it slightly different

Well, actually, I am a HoM voter and I have Pinson <u>way</u> ahead of Jimmy Wynn....</
   64. Joey Numbaz (Scruff) Posted: August 08, 2007 at 08:20 PM (#2477166)
I missed it last month, but thanks for stopping by and taking a look at the site Kim! By all means if you have anything to add on your dad's career, we'd love to hear it.
   65. Paul Wendt Posted: August 08, 2007 at 11:00 PM (#2477340)
I always wondered if Frank Robinson could help his old buddy out and promote Vada for the Hall !!!!! thats what i would ask Kim Pinson if she reads this -- get Frank to help the cause too !

Frank Robinson was my favorite player beginning in 1966. He is compiling a fine record of lifetime service to baseball. If he succeeds Bud Selig as Commissioner, ha ha, he will be the alltime leader in job titles. None of them is consistent with open campaigning. Leave that to those who do the games and the talk shows.

The Hall of Fame has changed. Under the old Veterans Committee --eg, five players, five writers, five officials-- it would have been reasonable to give Robinson an official seat. But that was a real committee, meeting in person behind closed doors, with campaigning normally secret.

In Saint Louis hotel rooms and brewhouses, I saw Robinson on TV a few times last week. I think his job was to say something dignified when Barry Bonds hit a home run, or didn't hit one. I feel sure that if he is asked questions about Vada Pinson or Boog Powell for the Hall of Fame, he will manage to come up with boring, dignified answers.

Ted Williams retired to Grand Old Man of Baseball, a position that has been filled only now and then in baseball history. As GOMs, Cap Anson, Connie Mack, and Ted Williams could campaign for just about anything. And Buck O'Neil, in the "Negro Leagues" sphere.

The Grand Old Man position may now be empty ever after, or open only at the local or regional level to some of the Bretts and Younts, Gwynns and Ripkens, depending on how they use middle age.

Neither Feller nor Berra, Musial nor Mays has the Ted Williams stature and instinct for using it, nor did DiMaggio. From the younger generation, Reggie and Joe Morgan seem to be trying. Weaver simply retired, to my surprise, but I now guess that La Russa will do the same; recognized Genius does not seem to be GOM in training.

On the much more specific point:
Can anyone effectively lead a campaign for Hall of Fame honors under the present system?
   66. Toledo66 Posted: August 09, 2007 at 12:14 AM (#2477503)
I believe that Frank Robinson could help Vada Pinson get into the HOF ! Reporters have to respect Franks knowledge of the game, its worth a try ( KIM PINSON )

I stopped being a F. Robinson fan when the Reds traded him to the Orioles, I was jealous of the team success he had with them from 66-71..

what would he have done with the BIG RED MACHINE !! I say from 69 to 77 would of been many pennants for the REDS ! He could of replaced Sparky :))
   67. AROM Posted: August 09, 2007 at 12:28 AM (#2477527)
Darth Vada

He's one of two players I remember as a kid whose names reminded me of the sith. The other was a 3rd baseman and later manager, Darth Rader.
   68. DavidFoss Posted: August 09, 2007 at 02:44 AM (#2477965)
He's one of two players I remember as a kid whose names reminded me of the sith.

Al Maul won an ERA title in the 1890s. His nickname was "Smiling Al", though. Not very Darth-like. :-)
   69. yest Posted: August 09, 2007 at 07:05 PM (#2479109)
As GOMs, Cap Anson, Connie Mack, and Ted Williams could campaign for just about anything. And Buck O'Neil, in the "Negro Leagues" sphere.

Ty Cobb should also be included (despite the movie Cobb) players from the 30's-50's retunlily asked him quistions when they were in slumps.
   70. Paul Wendt Posted: August 09, 2007 at 09:32 PM (#2479366)
[tangent continued, with apology to Vada Pinson]

Oh, Sparky. Before posting I revised "Earl Weaver and Sparky Anderson" to "Weaver". Anderson was the manager of America's team, and popular with the press, but not considered a genius or even deep. If he had George Will's interests, or George Will had his playing career, who knows?

It occurs to me,
Players known for the Joy of Playing, or for Love of the Game (Willie Mays, Ernie Banks) and players known for fun-loving off the field (Mickey Mantle) are not on the GOM career path.

By middle-age career outside baseball, a player may achieve fame and stature that transcends the game. I suppose many Americans love Joe Garagiola but don't know that he was a ballplayer; he might campaign effectively for the SPCA or YMCA but not for anything within the baseball industry.

Had he survived to senior citizenry, Roberto Clemente might have a career in Baseball like Frank Robinson (inside, not radiocaster or talk show host or writer) or he might be a highly respected critic with an audience on any baseball matter of his choosing. Frank Robinson by different middle-age career choice, or Roberto Clemente by survival and choice, would be as close to Grand Old Man and as close to Ted Williams as anyone in the younger generation could be.

Robinson and Clemente had a lot in common with Williams, although more on a human scale where Ted was "larger than life" (as many said of him). Great players who aged well as players. Never the best friends of the team or the press, neither fun nor fun-loving, rather cantankerous already in their twenties. This may be contrasted not only with Mays & Banks, having fun, but also with Steve Carlton and Eddie Murray, so reserved or curt or simply unavailable to be essentially unknown.
   71. ronw Posted: August 09, 2007 at 09:39 PM (#2479379)
If it weren't for some other matters, Barry Bonds could have been a future GOM. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he pulled a Ted Williams and became a Grand Old Man of baseball anyway.
   72. sunnyday2 Posted: August 09, 2007 at 10:04 PM (#2479412)
Wally Backman?
   73. Toledo66 Posted: August 10, 2007 at 08:38 AM (#2479819)
Whatever happened to Dick Simpson ??
now that was a great trade Frank Robinson for Dick Simpson , how would that play out today with all the talking heads and sports networks , Bill Dewitt who made that trade deserves the all time dunce hat of all-time.

Actually the Orioles wanted Pinson instead of F. Robinson, now that would of been interesting...

Vada Pinson might be in the HOF now.
   74. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 12:41 AM (#2492935)
Thanks to all of you for the nice quotes. I do look at this page from time to time. Like right now we the family just celebrated what would have been his 69th birthday on 8-11-07.So something told me to log on and I am glad I did. Frank and Barbara Robinson still stay in contact with my mother and they stop by when they are in town. I think you are right it could not hurt to ask him. If you have any more ideals just let me know. Thanks again to all.
   75. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 12:49 AM (#2492947)
Also keep telling the story from the 60's. I was born in 65.I just remember the Indians, the Angels,the Royals,I was just a baby while he was with Cinci Reds. But I still have my jersey also I still have his Jersey.
   76. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:00 AM (#2492954)
Toledo66 I read your article all this time I could have already ask Frank. Thank you for being a good fan.
   77. 44magnum Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:03 AM (#2492957)
Pete Rose has always been quite vocal about Pinson and Robinson being the only teammates who would talk to and how he wass repeatedly asked to stop hanging out with the black ballplayers.
   78. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:40 AM (#2492979)
44magnum that is why Pete Rose should be placed in the hall of fame. I did not know Pete But my Mother does also she was good friends with his wife at that time. Do you think Pete could help get my Dad in the Hall of Fame?
   79. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:44 AM (#2492982)
What I am doing is pulling in as many names as possible to get this to work. Because this is the year We plan on completing my Dad's career by getting him in.
   80. OCF Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:44 AM (#2492983)
Do you think Pete could help get my Dad in the Hall of Fame?

No. I don't think Pete Rose can help anyone with anything at this point.
   81. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 01:52 AM (#2492991)
I know I have seen the news
   82. Repoz Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:03 AM (#2493002)
Kim...A little info here on Vada's speed from author Ray Robinson...circa 1962

There are few players in spikes today who can move down the line to first at Vada's mercury-like pace. The time-keepers generally trot out the figure of 3.2 seconds as his traveling time to first base, which is enough to make Mickey Mantle or Luis Aparicio, speed merchants in their own right, blush with shame. Though he has never been clocked for speed on a complete tour of the bases, it is reasonable to assume that Vada, on a good day, could out-swift even one Evar Swanson, who circled the bases in a blur in 1929, some 32 years ago, in 13 2.5 seconds.

BTW...Pinson was one of my faves back in the day.
   83. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:21 AM (#2493015)
Repoz I still work in the City of Oakland and on my name bage I still wear my maiden name and I hear all of these great storys from older people. Storys like what you just quoted. That is why I find it so hard to believe my Dad is not in the hall of fame. He is in the Bay Area hall of fame. My family accepted the award that night in place of him and after that night every thing stopped.
   84. 44magnum Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:45 AM (#2493037)
Nice, Repoz. From Greg Rhodes and John Erardi's "Crosley Field":

Pinson was one of the fastest players in the game-his speed to first base was a scintillating 3.3 seconds....Pinson hit for average and power too, hitting 20 or more home runs six times in his Cincinnati career. Robinson though, was alwasys the big bopper.In his book "The Long Season", Jim Brosnan recalled that Pinson, after hitting a home run, ran around the bases like he was trying to beat out a bunt. "Robby shakes Vada's hand when he gets to the bench and says, "Little man, you just better stick to singles and leave the long ones to us cats who know how to act 'em out."

re: 78. I don't know if Pete can help, but would love to see a national writer interview Robinson and Rose about your father. Growing up in Cincy, I met 2 dudes named after your dad.
   85. Toledo66 Posted: August 21, 2007 at 02:59 AM (#2493045)
Kim Pinson -- what a pleasure to see you on this site !! I have been a fan of Vada Pinson since the Reds , even though i lived in Toledo, ohio , which is Detroit Tiger country !!

Frank Robinson should help Vada . They were such great teammates in the 60s,i just bought 1965 sport magazine , by Jerry Izenberg
great article and pictures from Frank and Vada.

I saw your picture in the reds yearbook - i think.

I would love to help also . Please write back ,

Toledo 66
   86. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:39 AM (#2493065)
44magnum wow 2 people with the name Vada to me it is a pretty weird name But there is only three Vada's over here and only one is left my brother.

Toledo66 I pop in from time to time just to see what is being said. A 1965 magazine wow is it yellow? My dad was playing with the reds when I was born. My mother was his biggest fan she kept the news paper clippings when they announced he had a girl on the on the big screen at the park. We took alot a pictures back then I am the youngest one. It was fun back then. I have a lot of pictures of the team a lot of baseball cards etc. I really can not remember being out there so much but the pictures help. But I do remember the other teams he played on.
   87. Toledo66 Posted: August 21, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2493079)
no its not yellow -- great shape , you can find a lot on ebay.

Just wondering who else was your dad Vada was close too ?? Did he like living in Cincinnati ??? Seems like he and Frank were isolated in Cincy. I think he never moved from Oakland, must of been tuff living in Cicinnati in 65; Frank mentioned that in his book.

Thanks for writing back .
Toledo 66-
   88. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:05 AM (#2493093)
Toledo66- friends I can remember Tony Perez we stayed with them a lot Willie Stargell, Tommie Harper,Curt Flood, Joe Morgan I went to school with his daughters. Jesse Gonder, Leo Cardenas,Jim Malloney,Bobby Valentine, Johnny Edwards, Johnny Bench, My mom said Pete Rose and his wife at that time Carolyn. There is more.
My dad came home during the off season or when we were out of school we said the summer where ever he was playin. We the kids were all born in raised in Oakland. He did not stay out there just when he had to work.
   89. kim pinson Posted: August 21, 2007 at 04:10 AM (#2493098)
Also Ted Abernathy

kp
   90. Toledo66 Posted: August 22, 2007 at 01:43 AM (#2494358)
Thanks Kim Pinson - for sharing us about your father Vada , i think it is so cool too write you..

58-68 Cincinnati Reds The best years !!
69 St. Louis
70-71 Cleveland
73 united with Frank Robinson again - Cal Angels


Toledo 66
   91. Toledo66 Posted: September 03, 2007 at 06:07 PM (#2509794)
Dear Kim Pinson - Cincinnati Reds brass sould also help Vada - he gave 11 years of his career there in Cincinnati.
I am from Toledo and to see him roam center field at Crosley field - was worth the drive south to Cincy.. plus the Reds had the coolest uniforms in baseball from 64-66 !!
Pinson 28 - F. Robinson 20 - Pete Rose 14
1964 - they should of won pennant and 65 too -- then traded F.Robby to Baltimore in 66.

Pinson 2,757 - most hits of any not in HOF !!!

Toledo 66
   92. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 03, 2007 at 08:47 PM (#2510158)
Pinson 2,757 - most hits of any not in HOF !!!


Actually, it's Baines with 2,866.
   93. ronw Posted: September 04, 2007 at 03:48 AM (#2510830)
Grandma, did you consider the punctuation? Baines clearly lacks several exclamation points among his hits. :-)
   94. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 04, 2007 at 05:10 PM (#2511214)
Grandma, did you consider the punctuation? Baines clearly lacks several exclamation points among his hits. :-)


If I didn't use exclamation points for Pearce, Sutton, Beckwith and others I whole heartedly supported, Ron, I'm sure as heck not going to do so for Baines!

Except there, of course. :-D
   95. kim pinson Posted: September 05, 2007 at 03:58 AM (#2512407)
where do you guys get this info? I do not think all of you are seniors. I do not think all of you are old enough to have seen the games.
   96. McLovin Posted: September 05, 2007 at 04:18 AM (#2512423)
I do not think all of you are old enough to have seen the games.

ALL-TIME MAJOR LEAGUE HIT LEADERS
Derek Jeter -- 812
Don Mattingly -- 756
Bernie Williams -- 744
Paul O'Neill -- 557
Dave Winfield -- 310
Manny Ramirez -- 309

(only games seen included, of course)
   97. AROM Posted: September 05, 2007 at 04:31 AM (#2512431)
Pinson 2,757 - most hits of any not in HOF !!!



Actually, it's Baines with 2,866.


I'm guessing its Rose and 4256.
   98. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 05, 2007 at 11:45 AM (#2512530)
I'm guessing its Rose and 4256.


I think he deserves an asterisk in regard to this discussion, don't you? :-)
   99. Howie Menckel Posted: September 05, 2007 at 12:45 PM (#2512563)
Kim,
baseball-reference.com is a GOLD MINE.

For instance:

http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/pinsova01.shtml

You'll like the leaderboards and especially the "most similar player to Pinson by each age" file near the bottom...
   100. Paul Wendt Posted: September 05, 2007 at 03:29 PM (#2512740)
Kim and others,

For the season-by-season record of any player, team, or league, what Howie said. Sean Forman is the sizard of web encyclopedias.
For a variety of overall major league records, same.

Records in the sense of mosts and leasts are "Leader Boards". For example, visit the index.
Leader Boards at baseball-reference
Select '24' from age-based records and you will find Vada Pinson #7 in at bats through age 24 and #7 in hits through age 24, or example.

Those player pages and these record pages are now updated daily.

--
For the daily record of any player (approximately the last 50 years), team or league (all-time), visit Retrosheet. For example, select "Retrosheet" in the Other References at the bottom of the player page at baseball-reference and you get the player page at Retrosheet.
Vada Pinson at baseball-reference (note Other References)
For any year whose daily record is now available, there is a "Daily" link beside the date.
. . . 1958 CIN N Daily Splits (list of links)
. . . Vada Pinson debuted 4-15 . . . in batting position 2, fielding position rf

--
For Harold Baines you need to follow the news. He is eligible for the Hall of Fame this year for the first time and he has surpassed Vada Pinson as answer to the hits trivia question.

For Pete Rose you need quick wits. Oh, yeah, Rose is not honored in the Hall.
Page 1 of 3 pages  1 2 3 > 

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Syndicate

Page rendered in 0.8425 seconds
49 querie(s) executed