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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Sunday, July 09, 2006
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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
For the daily record of any player in the last 50 years, or any team or league all-time, visit Retrosheet.
For example, following a route that has other uses, visit a player page at baseball-reference.
Vada Pinson at baseball-reference (with a list of Other References links at bottom)[/url]
Select "Retrosheet" from the "Other References" and you get the player page at Retrosheet.
For any year whose daily record is now available, "Daily" is among the links listed beside the date.
1958 CIN-N Daily Splits (list of links)
. . . Vada Pinson debuted 4-15 . . . in batting position 2 ('BP') and fielding position rf
I would like to know what FRANK ROBINSON thinks of Vada chances for hall. And was he better than Paul Blair at centerfield ????
I say Vada was the second best behind Mays . Blair would be my third choice .
Pete Rose is NEXT
Lets keep pushing for HOF .
Thanks Kim !!
I hope you stil ask Frank to respond.
Davis - Koufax
Flood - Brock , Gibson
Blair - the O``S TEAM - Palmer . B: Robinson etc.........
Pinson - had Frank Robinson !! that all....
I just think Vada was underrated in his prime . Davis , Flood , Agee, Blair all got kudos for being on good ball clubs.
No argument from me about Blair being a good center fielder, however i would still take Pinson over any CF EXCEPT Willie Mays
I think you can find just as many examples from underachievers.
Except for maybe Jones, Koosman and Shamsky, the rest had seasons very similar in other years. In fact, many of them in '69 were below their normal standards in context.
256 homers
2,757 hits
486 doubles
305 stolen bases
if he played in a large market and won some World Series , slam dunk...
I just started reading Black and Blue, Tom Adelman's review of the 1966 season, and Adelman advances the argument that Davis really "wasn't" that good defensively. The picture of Davis that is presented there is that he didn't have particularly good instincts, either in the field or on the basepaths.
-- MWE
There fine numbers, Toledo, but I don't see them as a slam dunk. Andre Dawson has even better numbers, but he's not considered a no-brainer, either.
From Zanger's '67 Annual..."The Dodgers have forgotten all about Willie Davis' three World Series errors in one inning (that can happen to anyone), but they aren't forgiving about the way he squanders his natural talents."
Zinger!
From 59-67 HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST UNDERRATED PLAYERS BY FAR !!!!!!
Some of us did see him play, I believe.
I did.
There were 28 players, in the years 1959-1967, who had at least 2000 ABs and a better OPS than Pinson. Among them were such all-time greats as Jim Ray Hart, Joe Adcock, Bob Allison, Don Mincher, and Bill White. Allison, in particular, is an interesting comp; he hit just .258 to Pinson's .300 in that period, but outslugged Pinson anyway AND had an OBP that was 20 points higher. Why would you take Pinson over Allison?
Pinson did have more at-bats than anyone else in that period. But that was primarily a function of his batting order position and the fact that he didn't draw many walks, so while he was 11th in BA his OBP was just .343, 39th in the group of 165 players who met the qualifications above.
-- MWE
59-67 !!!! Vada Pinson HOF !!!!!!!!!!
I'm pretty sure that Mike's point was that they weren't all-time greats with the bat, yet Pinson still wasn't better than them. Of course, Vada was an excellent fielder, good runner and had the longest career of that group, so overall I would still take him over the others. It still doesn't make him a no-brainer HoMer, however.
Jim Ray Hart ?
Don Mincher ??
Don Demeter ??
How about Don Wert ?? you will probaly say he was better than Pinson.
you guys dont know you dont know !!!!
PINSON IS A HOFER .))
Mike was talking specifically from 1959-1967, which were the years that you brought up (Compell this....... Pinson stats were one of tops from 59-67.). During that time, Pinson had lower rate stats and was unquestionably not one of the top hitters during that time (though he was good). However, Mike didn't state that those others (BTW, he never mentioned Demeter or Wert) were better players for their careers than Pinson, so I don't know what you're talking about.
No offense, but less fanboyism and more analysis will be what helps Pinson's HOF or HoM case,
You're Paul Vitti? :-D
Vada Pinson
2,757 hits
486 Doubles
1,386 runs
256 Homers
305 Stolen bases
Over 100 triples-- led league three times
All Star 59- 61 - would been more if he was in a larger market..
27 game hit streak - 1965
Golden Gold winner
played behind the shadows of Frank Robinson and Pete Rose !!!
those are stats Grandma....
Is that true? Was he better than Aaron, Mays or Robinson in the OF?
Yes, they are, Toledo, and indicate why he's a candidate while others are not. But are they stats that place him easily above other HOF candidates? I don't see it.
He also had a below average OBP, which is another stat, but that one hurts him. We have to mix the good and the bad and see where that takes us for proper analysis.
Again, he may still have been a HOF-caliber player, but there are many more players that were definitely better than him that I would like to see go in first.
Now, if he had more seasons like he had in 1963, he would have been in the HOF a long time ago.
He probably deserved to start in '63.
Well, McCovey was certainly the better hitter, but not the better fielder and Pinson played many more games. I would still go with Pinson.
59-67 he was the top 6 hitters in the National League
1. Mays - Giants
2. Aaron - Braves
3. Frank Robinson - Cincinnati Reds
4. Roberto Clemete Pitt
5. Orlando Cepeda - Giants / Cards
6. Vada Pinson - Cincinnati Reds
I can't tell what the basis for this claim is, and to be honest, so what? Pinson was 37 OPS points behind Clemente, the worst hitters in terms of OPS in the group ahead of him, during the 1959-1967 time frame, and more than 100 OPS points behind the top 3 hitters in that group.
This is a common fallacy, to which Bill James alludes in the Hall of Fame book - the "he's in the group" fallacy, where the "group" is carefully selected to include people who are WAY ahead of a guy, while eliminating people who are just a little bit behind the guy because they don't meet the (carefully chosen) minimum standards for inclusion in the group. If you look at the hitters who are just below Pinson - in any selection of top hitters from 1959-1967 - the hitters that Pinson comes closest to are guys like Bill White. Now these are good players, don't get me wrong; the point is that Pinson's a lot more like them than he is like Cepeda and Clemente.
-- MWE
Pinson played in Robinson and Rose's shadows because he was a lot worse than them. Now, they were really great, and he could theoretically have been a lot worse than them and still deserve the HOF (didn't happen as it turned out, but it could've.) Still, he did deserve to be in their shadows based on his level of play.
I didn't know Pinson won the Golden Gold, though. I have to admit that's a unique accomplishment. (Davis won three Gold Gloves, and Finley five, but I don't see any Golden Golds.)
Pinson had speed and power 256 homers -- 305 stolen bases.
Billy Williams and Ron Santo both have said Pinson was the most underarted player in the NL: And Pinson would have stolen more bases except batting in front Frank Robinson !!
Except that Clemente got on base more and had a higher slugging percentage, too.
Clemente also has a higher walks/Plate apperrance
Pinson 1 walk/18.12369 PA
Clemente 1 walk/16.4444 PA
Clemente 166
Pinson 127
Pass.
59 - 67 THE SECOND BEST CF !!! Mays will forever be first !!!
I wont give up !!!
Toledo 66 -- darn proud being a Buckeye !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Tell Frank some Cincinnati Red fan from Toledo is a great fan of both of them , Vada and Frank , 58-65 they were inseparable !!
Frank can help ! Thanks Kim keep reading , i wont give up for Vada.
Tell Frank some Cincinnati Red fan from Toledo is a great fan of both of them , Vada and Frank , 58-65 they were inseparable !!
Frank can help ! Thanks Kim keep reading , i wont give up for Vada.
Tony Played his whole career in the Twin cities, injuries cut him short.
I would ike someone to compare Pinson stats from 59-67 vs Al Kaline who was a great Rfer for the Tigers, well deserving for Al Kaline , but i think you will be surprised how close Pinson stats are close to many in the Hall from 59-67.....
Maybe his counting stats compare, Toledo66, but certainly not his rate stats.
Does this mean that you're not sure about their respective rate stats or that you don't understand what I mean about rate stats?
Compare Pinson vs Kaline ,Clemente, Lou Brock -- i would be curious how Vada Pinson rates vs those Hall of Famers from 59-67
I don't have their rate numbers handy for those years, but just eyeballing them show conclusively that Kaline had the greater BA, OBP, SLG and OPS+. The same appears to be the case for Clemente.
Pinson was clearly better than Brock for those years. Of course, the electorate doesn't feel that Brock was a great HOF choice anyway, not to mention the fact that Lou started his career in 1961.
Holy smokes, Toledo66! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College too?
iTS TIME FOR hof !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They weighed-in on your man last winter. This was their verdict:
Vada Pinson (16, 19.5%)
Toledo66: Is there anyone, besides Pinson, that you would recommend the VC should elect?
1. Arky Vaughan, 43.9
2. Mickey Mantle, 42.6
3. Mel Ott, 38.9
4. Alex Rodriguez, 38.0
5. Ted Williams, 37.0 (missing a year of war credit)
6. Jimmie Foxx, 34.9
7. Ken Griffey, Jr., 33.2
8. Cal Ripken, Jr., 32.4
9. Albert Pujols, 32.0
10. Eddie Mathews, 29.0
11. Al Kaline, 28.3
12. Hank Aaron, 27.6
13. Stan Musial, 27.2 (missing war adjustments)
14. Vada Pinson, 26.3
15. Rickey Henderson, 25.7
16. Johnny Bench, 25.6
17. Willie Mays 25.6 (missing nearly two seasons of war credit)
18. Frank Robinson, 25.5
19. Joe DiMaggio, 25.2
Not a bad list, that. 14 inner-circle Hall members, one who's headed that way (Pujols), three other above-median HoM'ers (Kaline, Mathews, and Griffey), and Vada Pinson. What the hell happened to this guy?
How about Al Oliver or Tony Oliva ??
(BTW, I assume that that list doesn't assume that Pinson was actually older than B-R lists him as.)
Look, you've been doing this for three months. What are you trying to accomplish here? Do you even care about the Hall of Merit? Because that's what this thread is for. This is not the Hall of Fame voting committee. If you want to get Pinson elected to the HOF, you should contact them. They are the only ones who can do anything about that.
I jut think others would agree and help see if a player like Pinson can get in Hof . Even his daughter Kim Pinson reads this thread so it at least she thinks its important !!
I like others too , Al Oliver and Tony Oliva had some good stats also.
Thank you.
Keep up your quest to get Vada elected to the Hall of Fame. There are much worse players than Pinson in the Hall of Fame, and tireless advocacy over many long years has resulted in a few elections, such as Addie Joss, Phil Rizzuto, Vic Willis, George Davis, and Bill Mazeroski.
Although your methods may be different than many in this particular forum, don't let people deter you from your goal. It is admirable and I hope you achieve it. Personally, I would like to see many of our Hall of Merit electees put into the Hall of Fame before Pinson, but Pinson is not a horrible Hall of Fame selection.
Thank you again for keeping people aware of Vada Pinson's fantastic ballplaying ability.
Indeed. My only problem with Toledo's hyper-advocacy for Pinson is the idea that he's easily the best candidate available to elect, which he clearly is not.
He may not have been 24, he may have been 26
and where's Cesar Cedeno? I know your #s are different, but Cedeno had 34.9 warp2 by age 24 per BPro.
Speaking of which, electing Pinson would be like electing Cedeno, except I'd vote for Cedeno first
Was there a question about Pinson's age? That would make a lot more sense...
It can happen, though I suppose. Puckett was born in IL and he lied about his age (by one year) throughout his career. Still, I'm inclined to think that Pinson's age is correct and that he was just and early peaker.
I'm sure they'd all be playing football or basketball today. Pretty sad if you ask me.
Bill "more rings than fingers" Russell went there at around the same time as well. Frank Robinson played on the HS basketball team with him.
Kim Pinson - thanks also for your support.
I would to see what the players think who belongs in the Hall . Us fans dont know who the players really respect or not.
Thats why i wanted Kim Pinson to ask Frank Robinson , what better player to ask than Frank , he played 8 seasons with Vada, and played against the best who are in the Hall, e.g. Aaron , Mays , Clemente, McCovey, Kaline , Yaz, Mantle, Banks, Brock, etc....
Just curious what the players would say who deseves who is not in .. Would Santo , Pinson , Billy Williams, Al Oliver, be mentioned ?
THX
Dan: it is still possible for an African-American baseball player to come from a football-first high school - see Milton Bradley.
Williams has been in the HOF for years now. As for the others, Santo is easily the best and very deserving of the honor.
I think Ron Santo is past due , he should be in Hall.
That would be George Powles, I believe.
Minnesota has a hard tme getting players in except Puckett , Carew , -- What about Jack Morris ??
Jack Morris is far, far better supported by the writers of the BBWAA than he is by us.
http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofmem.shtml
And of course Vada Pinson !!
Does anyone know if there are any 1964- 65 Videos or Dvds of Highlights or games from that time , GAME OF THE WEEK ?
Thanks .
Also someone wrote that watching Vada Pinson play Centerfield was like a chevy impala , sleek and smooth...
Well stated on Pinsons quest to HOF ! Marginal is better than having not ever being mentioned !!
Worth the drive from Toledo to Cincinnati in mid 60s
Thanks ,
Toledo66
CENTERFIELDERS
1963
1. Willie Mays
2. Vada Pinson , quote, has exceptional speed , a 200 hit guy, Outstanding power for a small guy, can go get any fly ball . One of the future stars of the game:
3. Curt Flood
4. Bill Virdon ?
5. Willie Davis
Right Fielders
1. Frank Robinson Cincinnati Reds
2. Hank Aaron
3. Roberto Clemente
4. Felipe Alou
5. John Callison
Is there absolutely no chance for him ?? Just curious....
I think 1968- 69 cut him short with injuries. Finishing with 2,757 hits , would of been close to 3,000 if not for being injured and having off years..
Also, if the BBWAA elects Dawson and the VC elects Oliva, that would give you new arguments, as well.
Rice should not go before Pinson.
While I don't support his candidacy, Pinson was a much better player than Rice.
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