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Sunday, July 09, 2006

Vada Pinson

Eligible in 1981

John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: July 09, 2006 at 07:30 PM | 217 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. Paul Wendt Posted: September 05, 2007 at 03:41 PM (#2512753)
Maybe this reformat is useful. Anyway, the families and fans of many players will find it useful or interesting to visit baseball-reference player pages and their "Other References".

For the daily record of any player in the last 50 years, or any team or league all-time, visit Retrosheet.

For example, following a route that has other uses, visit a player page at baseball-reference.
Vada Pinson at baseball-reference (with a list of Other References links at bottom)[/url]

Select "Retrosheet" from the "Other References" and you get the player page at Retrosheet.
For any year whose daily record is now available, "Daily" is among the links listed beside the date.
1958 CIN-N Daily Splits (list of links)
. . . Vada Pinson debuted 4-15 . . . in batting position 2 ('BP') and fielding position rf
   102. DavidFoss Posted: September 05, 2007 at 03:46 PM (#2512761)
bump
   103. Toledo66 Posted: September 07, 2007 at 03:17 AM (#2514735)
Hi Kim PINSON- im not a senior , not yet -- but i was a frosh when we would drive to Cincinnati from Toledo. Vada was one of the best center fielders in the mid 60.
I would like to know what FRANK ROBINSON thinks of Vada chances for hall. And was he better than Paul Blair at centerfield ????

I say Vada was the second best behind Mays . Blair would be my third choice .
   104. Toledo66 Posted: September 16, 2007 at 01:09 PM (#2526964)
Im glad you all agree !! Vada Pinson deserves the HOF .
Pete Rose is NEXT
   105. kim pinson Posted: September 18, 2007 at 04:03 AM (#2529571)
Thank you Toledo66 for being a good fan
   106. Toledo66 Posted: September 19, 2007 at 12:08 PM (#2531635)
Thanks Kim - I really think its great that at least people know how good your father was during his years with the Reds. Even when your dad was traded to St. Louis Cards for Bobby Tolan , Tolan he even wore Vada´s number 28, and through out his career.
Lets keep pushing for HOF .
Thanks Kim !!
I hope you stil ask Frank to respond.
   107. TomH Posted: September 19, 2007 at 01:24 PM (#2531676)
re: Pinsons' defense in CF -- while stellar, there were a LOT of fine CFers in his day. Many would cite Flood and Blair as equals even to Mays at their best (altho they didn't last as long), and Willie Davis could go get'em also. It would be difficult to get a consensus that Pinson was a slot above or even equal to the real cream of the crop that existed then.
   108. Toledo66 Posted: September 20, 2007 at 10:56 PM (#2534155)
plueeze.. None of them had the stats of Vada Pinson. Blair , davis and Flood were all overshadowed with superstars.

Davis - Koufax
Flood - Brock , Gibson
Blair - the O``S TEAM - Palmer . B: Robinson etc.........

Pinson - had Frank Robinson !! that all....
   109. OCF Posted: September 21, 2007 at 12:26 AM (#2534255)
TomH's post was limited to defense; it's not really relevant who their teammates were. Flood and Blair were lesser hitters, no argument there, but their defensive skills were real.
   110. Toledo66 Posted: September 21, 2007 at 12:44 PM (#2535041)
Sure it is.. also players perform better with a great support cast. I always remember 69 WS Mets vs Balt. Agee, Cleon Jones, McClendon, - all played beyond their talent . Helps with great Pitching Seaver .

I just think Vada was underrated in his prime . Davis , Flood , Agee, Blair all got kudos for being on good ball clubs.
No argument from me about Blair being a good center fielder, however i would still take Pinson over any CF EXCEPT Willie Mays
   111. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 21, 2007 at 01:11 PM (#2535064)
Sure it is.. also players perform better with a great support cast.


I think you can find just as many examples from underachievers.

I always remember 69 WS Mets vs Balt. Agee, Cleon Jones, McClendon, - all played beyond their talent .



Except for maybe Jones, Koosman and Shamsky, the rest had seasons very similar in other years. In fact, many of them in '69 were below their normal standards in context.
   112. Toledo66 Posted: September 25, 2007 at 11:46 PM (#2542280)
Dont you think Vada Pinson would be in the Hall of Fame if he played with the Yankees or Mets .

256 homers
2,757 hits
486 doubles
305 stolen bases

if he played in a large market and won some World Series , slam dunk...
   113. Mike Emeigh Posted: September 26, 2007 at 12:02 AM (#2542326)
Willie Davis could go get'em also.


I just started reading Black and Blue, Tom Adelman's review of the 1966 season, and Adelman advances the argument that Davis really "wasn't" that good defensively. The picture of Davis that is presented there is that he didn't have particularly good instincts, either in the field or on the basepaths.

-- MWE
   114. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: September 26, 2007 at 12:47 AM (#2542480)
256 homers
2,757 hits
486 doubles
305 stolen bases

if he played in a large market and won some World Series , slam dunk...


There fine numbers, Toledo, but I don't see them as a slam dunk. Andre Dawson has even better numbers, but he's not considered a no-brainer, either.
   115. Repoz Posted: September 26, 2007 at 01:13 AM (#2542595)
that Davis really "wasn't" that good defensively. The picture of Davis that is presented there is that he didn't have particularly good instincts, either in the field or on the basepaths.

From Zanger's '67 Annual..."The Dodgers have forgotten all about Willie Davis' three World Series errors in one inning (that can happen to anyone), but they aren't forgiving about the way he squanders his natural talents."

Zinger!
   116. Toledo66 Posted: October 04, 2007 at 01:26 AM (#2558981)
Please...... Vada Pinson was way better than Andre Dawson. Pinson most of you guys never seen him play !!!! Vada Pinson
From 59-67 HE WAS ONE OF THE MOST UNDERRATED PLAYERS BY FAR !!!!!!
   117. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 04, 2007 at 01:48 AM (#2559016)
Your arguments are extraordinarily compelling. I sense the tide shifting.
   118. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 04, 2007 at 02:00 AM (#2559029)
Please...... Vada Pinson was way better than Andre Dawson. Pinson most of you guys never seen him play !!!!


Some of us did see him play, I believe.
   119. Toledo66 Posted: October 05, 2007 at 01:40 AM (#2560856)
Compell this....... Pinson stats were one of tops from 59-67. Check it out...
   120. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 05, 2007 at 02:07 AM (#2560902)
Compell this....... Pinson stats were one of tops from 59-67. Check it out...


I did.

There were 28 players, in the years 1959-1967, who had at least 2000 ABs and a better OPS than Pinson. Among them were such all-time greats as Jim Ray Hart, Joe Adcock, Bob Allison, Don Mincher, and Bill White. Allison, in particular, is an interesting comp; he hit just .258 to Pinson's .300 in that period, but outslugged Pinson anyway AND had an OBP that was 20 points higher. Why would you take Pinson over Allison?

Pinson did have more at-bats than anyone else in that period. But that was primarily a function of his batting order position and the fact that he didn't draw many walks, so while he was 11th in BA his OBP was just .343, 39th in the group of 165 players who met the qualifications above.

-- MWE
   121. Toledo66 Posted: October 06, 2007 at 06:55 AM (#2563892)
Please.... Jim Ray Hart all time great ??? Don mincher ?? Pinson ha overall stats that cant match up wth .........
59-67 !!!! Vada Pinson HOF !!!!!!!!!!
   122. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 06, 2007 at 01:00 PM (#2563945)
Please.... Jim Ray Hart all time great ??? Don mincher ??


I'm pretty sure that Mike's point was that they weren't all-time greats with the bat, yet Pinson still wasn't better than them. Of course, Vada was an excellent fielder, good runner and had the longest career of that group, so overall I would still take him over the others. It still doesn't make him a no-brainer HoMer, however.
   123. Toledo66 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 08:51 PM (#2565704)
Vada Pinson had 2, 757 hits, 486 DBS 305 SB

Jim Ray Hart ?
Don Mincher ??
Don Demeter ??
How about Don Wert ?? you will probaly say he was better than Pinson.

you guys dont know you dont know !!!!

PINSON IS A HOFER .))
   124. The District Attorney Posted: October 07, 2007 at 09:10 PM (#2565724)
PINSON IS A HOFER .))
ACTUALLY, HE ISN'T .))
   125. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 09:23 PM (#2565741)
Jim Ray Hart ?
Don Mincher ??
Don Demeter ??
How about Don Wert ?? you will probaly say he was better than Pinson.


Mike was talking specifically from 1959-1967, which were the years that you brought up (Compell this....... Pinson stats were one of tops from 59-67.). During that time, Pinson had lower rate stats and was unquestionably not one of the top hitters during that time (though he was good). However, Mike didn't state that those others (BTW, he never mentioned Demeter or Wert) were better players for their careers than Pinson, so I don't know what you're talking about.

No offense, but less fanboyism and more analysis will be what helps Pinson's HOF or HoM case,
   126. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 07, 2007 at 09:48 PM (#2565820)
Analyze this....... Pinson stats were one of tops from 59-67. Check it out...!!!!!!
   127. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 09:56 PM (#2565838)
Analyze this.......


You're Paul Vitti? :-D
   128. Toledo66 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 10:09 PM (#2565872)
Ok here goes again Grandma ....

Vada Pinson
2,757 hits
486 Doubles
1,386 runs
256 Homers
305 Stolen bases

Over 100 triples-- led league three times
All Star 59- 61 - would been more if he was in a larger market..
27 game hit streak - 1965
Golden Gold winner
played behind the shadows of Frank Robinson and Pete Rose !!!

those are stats Grandma....
   129. Sean Gilman Posted: October 07, 2007 at 10:38 PM (#2565918)
Well, most of those are stats . . . .
   130. Toledo66 Posted: October 07, 2007 at 11:33 PM (#2566079)
whatever......
   131. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 11:46 PM (#2566139)
All Star 59- 61 - would been more if he was in a larger market..


Is that true? Was he better than Aaron, Mays or Robinson in the OF?

those are stats Grandma....


Yes, they are, Toledo, and indicate why he's a candidate while others are not. But are they stats that place him easily above other HOF candidates? I don't see it.

He also had a below average OBP, which is another stat, but that one hurts him. We have to mix the good and the bad and see where that takes us for proper analysis.

Again, he may still have been a HOF-caliber player, but there are many more players that were definitely better than him that I would like to see go in first.

Now, if he had more seasons like he had in 1963, he would have been in the HOF a long time ago.
   132. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 11:52 PM (#2566174)
Is that true? Was he better than Aaron, Mays or Robinson in the OF?



He probably deserved to start in '63.
   133. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 07, 2007 at 11:55 PM (#2566192)
He probably deserved to start in '63.


Well, McCovey was certainly the better hitter, but not the better fielder and Pinson played many more games. I would still go with Pinson.
   134. Toledo66 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:07 AM (#2566251)
Grandma- if he played for the Yankees and had those STATS from 59-67 --- its a Homer:.. HOFer

59-67 he was the top 6 hitters in the National League

1. Mays - Giants
2. Aaron - Braves
3. Frank Robinson - Cincinnati Reds
4. Roberto Clemete Pitt
5. Orlando Cepeda - Giants / Cards
6. Vada Pinson - Cincinnati Reds
   135. Toledo66 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:28 AM (#2566349)
i meant 59-65
   136. Toledo66 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:40 AM (#2566403)
i would also argue that if Pinson played 2 more years his stats are very close to Clemente .
   137. Toledo66 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:50 AM (#2566441)
Ernie Banks Cubs i forgot
   138. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 08, 2007 at 12:50 AM (#2566443)
59-67 he was the top 6 hitters in the National League

1. Mays - Giants
2. Aaron - Braves
3. Frank Robinson - Cincinnati Reds
4. Roberto Clemete Pitt
5. Orlando Cepeda - Giants / Cards
6. Vada Pinson - Cincinnati Reds


I can't tell what the basis for this claim is, and to be honest, so what? Pinson was 37 OPS points behind Clemente, the worst hitters in terms of OPS in the group ahead of him, during the 1959-1967 time frame, and more than 100 OPS points behind the top 3 hitters in that group.

This is a common fallacy, to which Bill James alludes in the Hall of Fame book - the "he's in the group" fallacy, where the "group" is carefully selected to include people who are WAY ahead of a guy, while eliminating people who are just a little bit behind the guy because they don't meet the (carefully chosen) minimum standards for inclusion in the group. If you look at the hitters who are just below Pinson - in any selection of top hitters from 1959-1967 - the hitters that Pinson comes closest to are guys like Bill White. Now these are good players, don't get me wrong; the point is that Pinson's a lot more like them than he is like Cepeda and Clemente.

-- MWE
   139. The District Attorney Posted: October 08, 2007 at 01:14 AM (#2566548)
Vada Pinson
2,757 hits
486 Doubles
1,386 runs
256 Homers
305 Stolen bases

Over 100 triples-- led league three times
All Star 59- 61 - would been more if he was in a larger market..
27 game hit streak - 1965
Golden Gold winner
played behind the shadows of Frank Robinson and Pete Rose !!!
The only HOF type accomplishments there are the hits and the triples. The other stats you cite are just... his stats. Seriously, what is the point of continuing to cite those other stats? Do you think "three All-Star Games," or "256 homers" for a career outfielder, are Hall of Fame caliber accomplishments? They most certainly are not. And if you have fewer than 3,000 hits and the only other stat you can boast about is triples, you are not getting into the HOF. Pinson's contemporary Willie Davis had 138 triples and 2,561 hits, playing in a much tougher park for a hitter than Pinson. Mickey Vernon had 120 triples and 2,495 hits, and that's missing two prime years to WWII, plus again hitting in very tough parks. Steve Finley had 124 triples and 2,548 hits. They are all Hall of Very Good. So is Pinson. How can you seriously argue that Pinson is more similar to Mays and Aaron than he is to those guys? Based on what??? Because it sure ain't the 256 homers, the 1,386 runs, the three All-Star Games, etc. Guys like Mays and Aaron did a wee bit better than that.

Pinson played in Robinson and Rose's shadows because he was a lot worse than them. Now, they were really great, and he could theoretically have been a lot worse than them and still deserve the HOF (didn't happen as it turned out, but it could've.) Still, he did deserve to be in their shadows based on his level of play.

I didn't know Pinson won the Golden Gold, though. I have to admit that's a unique accomplishment. (Davis won three Gold Gloves, and Finley five, but I don't see any Golden Golds.)
   140. Toledo66 Posted: October 08, 2007 at 01:35 AM (#2566638)
Clemente was a great player -- but 3, 000 hits and a higher BA than Pinson-- and thats all.....

Pinson had speed and power 256 homers -- 305 stolen bases.

Billy Williams and Ron Santo both have said Pinson was the most underarted player in the NL: And Pinson would have stolen more bases except batting in front Frank Robinson !!
   141. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:23 AM (#2566799)
Clemente was a great player -- but 3, 000 hits and a higher BA than Pinson-- and thats all.....


Except that Clemente got on base more and had a higher slugging percentage, too.
   142. The District Attorney Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:30 AM (#2566805)
And won 11 more Golden Golds.
   143. yest Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:35 AM (#2566815)
Clemente was a great player -- but 3, 000 hits and a higher BA than Pinson-- and thats all.....

Clemente also has a higher walks/Plate apperrance
Pinson 1 walk/18.12369 PA
Clemente 1 walk/16.4444 PA
   144. yest Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:38 AM (#2566819)
Oh and since triples is such a big part of your argument
Clemente 166
Pinson 127
   145. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: October 08, 2007 at 02:43 AM (#2566825)
Guys, can we all just note that yest is playing the voice of reason here? Sort of, at least? Still gotta work on that spelling, though.
   146. Howie Menckel Posted: October 08, 2007 at 03:10 AM (#2566859)
This may be the most startling debate I've ever seen here...

Pass.
   147. Toledo66 Posted: October 09, 2007 at 12:37 AM (#2568177)
Just curious is Al Oliver in HOF ??
   148. caprules Posted: October 09, 2007 at 01:39 AM (#2568529)
Oliver is not in the HoF. He ranks relatively high on the career hits and doubles list, but didn't get elected.
   149. Toledo66 Posted: October 20, 2007 at 06:49 AM (#2584944)
Calling Frank Robinson , Pete Rose , Tony Perze , Help Vada Pinson in the Hall !!!!

59 - 67 THE SECOND BEST CF !!! Mays will forever be first !!!

I wont give up !!!

Toledo 66 -- darn proud being a Buckeye !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   150. kim pinson Posted: October 25, 2007 at 03:38 AM (#2592652)
I am now getting help from Frank Robinson
   151. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 05:04 AM (#2595554)
Kim Pinson that is great news !!!!

Tell Frank some Cincinnati Red fan from Toledo is a great fan of both of them , Vada and Frank , 58-65 they were inseparable !!

Frank can help ! Thanks Kim keep reading , i wont give up for Vada.
   152. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 05:05 AM (#2595555)
Kim Pinson that is great news !!!!

Tell Frank some Cincinnati Red fan from Toledo is a great fan of both of them , Vada and Frank , 58-65 they were inseparable !!

Frank can help ! Thanks Kim keep reading , i wont give up for Vada.
   153. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: October 27, 2007 at 05:08 AM (#2595556)
This thread is like a bizzaro universe.
   154. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 05:12 AM (#2595557)
dont read it !!
   155. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 03:29 PM (#2595691)
Is Tony Oliva and Al Oliver also deserving like Pinson ??

Tony Played his whole career in the Twin cities, injuries cut him short.

I would ike someone to compare Pinson stats from 59-67 vs Al Kaline who was a great Rfer for the Tigers, well deserving for Al Kaline , but i think you will be surprised how close Pinson stats are close to many in the Hall from 59-67.....
   156. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 27, 2007 at 03:32 PM (#2595694)
I would ike someone to compare Pinson stats from 59-67 vs Al Kaline who was a great Rfer for the Tigers, well deserving for Al Kaline , but i think you will be surprised how close Pinson stats are close to many in the Hall from 59-67.....


Maybe his counting stats compare, Toledo66, but certainly not his rate stats.
   157. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 03:50 PM (#2595711)
not sure about rate stats ???
   158. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 27, 2007 at 04:05 PM (#2595721)
not sure about rate stats ???


Does this mean that you're not sure about their respective rate stats or that you don't understand what I mean about rate stats?
   159. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 06:20 PM (#2595809)
Please clarify rate stats.

Compare Pinson vs Kaline ,Clemente, Lou Brock -- i would be curious how Vada Pinson rates vs those Hall of Famers from 59-67
   160. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: October 27, 2007 at 06:51 PM (#2595835)
Compare Pinson vs Kaline ,Clemente, Lou Brock -- i would be curious how Vada Pinson rates vs those Hall of Famers from 59-67


I don't have their rate numbers handy for those years, but just eyeballing them show conclusively that Kaline had the greater BA, OBP, SLG and OPS+. The same appears to be the case for Clemente.

Pinson was clearly better than Brock for those years. Of course, the electorate doesn't feel that Brock was a great HOF choice anyway, not to mention the fact that Lou started his career in 1961.
   161. Dr. Nick Riviera Posted: October 27, 2007 at 07:36 PM (#2595868)
Hey everybody!

Holy smokes, Toledo66! Did you go to Hollywood Upstairs Medical College too?
   162. DCW3 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 07:51 PM (#2595883)
Hi, Dr. Nick! But...didn't you die?
   163. Toledo66 Posted: October 27, 2007 at 09:18 PM (#2595944)
no but i did spend a night at the Holiday Express in Toledo...
   164. Toledo66 Posted: November 07, 2007 at 06:59 AM (#2607550)
Vada Pinson -- 2,757 hits ! 482 2Bs 256 hrs 305 SB


iTS TIME FOR hof !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
   165. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: November 07, 2007 at 07:09 AM (#2607559)
Yawn.
   166. DanG Posted: November 07, 2007 at 07:40 PM (#2608233)
iTS TIME FOR hof

They weighed-in on your man last winter. This was their verdict:

Vada Pinson (16, 19.5%)

Toledo66: Is there anyone, besides Pinson, that you would recommend the VC should elect?
   167. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: November 07, 2007 at 07:53 PM (#2608247)
Leo Cardenas !!
   168. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 07, 2007 at 08:16 PM (#2608278)
I'll chime in with something about Pinson--the guy just fell off a cliff after a start to his career that marked him as a surefire HoM'er. Here are all the MLB position players who accumulated at least 25 WARP2 by age 24 since 1920:

1. Arky Vaughan, 43.9
2. Mickey Mantle, 42.6
3. Mel Ott, 38.9
4. Alex Rodriguez, 38.0
5. Ted Williams, 37.0 (missing a year of war credit)
6. Jimmie Foxx, 34.9
7. Ken Griffey, Jr., 33.2
8. Cal Ripken, Jr., 32.4
9. Albert Pujols, 32.0
10. Eddie Mathews, 29.0
11. Al Kaline, 28.3
12. Hank Aaron, 27.6
13. Stan Musial, 27.2 (missing war adjustments)
14. Vada Pinson, 26.3
15. Rickey Henderson, 25.7
16. Johnny Bench, 25.6
17. Willie Mays 25.6 (missing nearly two seasons of war credit)
18. Frank Robinson, 25.5
19. Joe DiMaggio, 25.2

Not a bad list, that. 14 inner-circle Hall members, one who's headed that way (Pujols), three other above-median HoM'ers (Kaline, Mathews, and Griffey), and Vada Pinson. What the hell happened to this guy?
   169. Toledo66 Posted: November 08, 2007 at 12:31 AM (#2608674)
I like it ... very convincing to me that Pinson was better than you think !

How about Al Oliver or Tony Oliva ??
   170. The District Attorney Posted: November 08, 2007 at 04:14 PM (#2609187)
I like it ... very convincing to me that Pinson was better than you think !
I'm sure it took a lot of convincing to get you to come around to that position. But did you notice that this is only ranking players' performances through age 24? Surely that is not what a Hall of Fame or Hall of Merit should be about. Heck, do you even know what "accumulating at least 25 WARP2" means? If you don't, I don't know how you could be "convinced" by someone citing it.

(BTW, I assume that that list doesn't assume that Pinson was actually older than B-R lists him as.)

Look, you've been doing this for three months. What are you trying to accomplish here? Do you even care about the Hall of Merit? Because that's what this thread is for. This is not the Hall of Fame voting committee. If you want to get Pinson elected to the HOF, you should contact them. They are the only ones who can do anything about that.
   171. Toledo66 Posted: November 09, 2007 at 12:11 AM (#2609762)
Sorry it bothers you . Its still America freedom of speech, not to get nasty but please ignore it when you see Toledo 66

I jut think others would agree and help see if a player like Pinson can get in Hof . Even his daughter Kim Pinson reads this thread so it at least she thinks its important !!

I like others too , Al Oliver and Tony Oliva had some good stats also.

Thank you.
   172. ronw Posted: November 09, 2007 at 01:38 AM (#2609871)
Toledo66 you keep posting as you see fit. Of course, this forum was created to discuss Pinson for the Hall of Merit, but if the Hall of Fame is your goal, I don't see why this isn't a bad spot to declare your intentions. As you correctly point out, Kim Pinson reads this thread (Thank you Kim!)

Keep up your quest to get Vada elected to the Hall of Fame. There are much worse players than Pinson in the Hall of Fame, and tireless advocacy over many long years has resulted in a few elections, such as Addie Joss, Phil Rizzuto, Vic Willis, George Davis, and Bill Mazeroski.

Although your methods may be different than many in this particular forum, don't let people deter you from your goal. It is admirable and I hope you achieve it. Personally, I would like to see many of our Hall of Merit electees put into the Hall of Fame before Pinson, but Pinson is not a horrible Hall of Fame selection.

Thank you again for keeping people aware of Vada Pinson's fantastic ballplaying ability.
   173. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 09, 2007 at 03:29 AM (#2609978)
but Pinson is not a horrible Hall of Fame selection.


Indeed. My only problem with Toledo's hyper-advocacy for Pinson is the idea that he's easily the best candidate available to elect, which he clearly is not.
   174. JPWF13 Posted: November 09, 2007 at 04:12 PM (#2610288)
Not a bad list, that. 14 inner-circle Hall members, one who's headed that way (Pujols), three other above-median HoM'ers (Kaline, Mathews, and Griffey), and Vada Pinson. What the hell happened to this guy?


He may not have been 24, he may have been 26

and where's Cesar Cedeno? I know your #s are different, but Cedeno had 34.9 warp2 by age 24 per BPro.

Speaking of which, electing Pinson would be like electing Cedeno, except I'd vote for Cedeno first
   175. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 09, 2007 at 04:29 PM (#2610311)
BP is on an *entirely* different scale--they're like my WARP plus 3 per full season. I have Cedeño with 24.4 WARP2 by age 24. Close, but no cigar.

Was there a question about Pinson's age? That would make a lot more sense...
   176. DavidFoss Posted: November 09, 2007 at 05:00 PM (#2610359)
I understand the age discrepancies with foreign-born guys, but Pinson was born in Memphis and went to the same High School as Frank Robinson and Curt Flood. A birth certificate shouldn't be that hard to find for a guy like this.

It can happen, though I suppose. Puckett was born in IL and he lied about his age (by one year) throughout his career. Still, I'm inclined to think that Pinson's age is correct and that he was just and early peaker.
   177. David Concepcion de la Desviacion Estandar (Dan R) Posted: November 09, 2007 at 05:21 PM (#2610383)
Really? I didn't know they went to the same HS. That's pretty remarkable....

I'm sure they'd all be playing football or basketball today. Pretty sad if you ask me.
   178. DavidFoss Posted: November 09, 2007 at 06:18 PM (#2610462)
They were all born in different places (TN/TX/TX), but all three were raised in Oakland, CA and went to McClymonds High School. The baseball coach there became a bit of a legend due to these guys (can't find his name right now).

Bill "more rings than fingers" Russell went there at around the same time as well. Frank Robinson played on the HS basketball team with him.
   179. Toledo66 Posted: November 10, 2007 at 01:19 AM (#2610881)
Thanks Ronw !! I appreciate your comments .

Kim Pinson - thanks also for your support.

I would to see what the players think who belongs in the Hall . Us fans dont know who the players really respect or not.
Thats why i wanted Kim Pinson to ask Frank Robinson , what better player to ask than Frank , he played 8 seasons with Vada, and played against the best who are in the Hall, e.g. Aaron , Mays , Clemente, McCovey, Kaline , Yaz, Mantle, Banks, Brock, etc....

Just curious what the players would say who deseves who is not in .. Would Santo , Pinson , Billy Williams, Al Oliver, be mentioned ?

THX
   180. OCF Posted: November 10, 2007 at 01:27 AM (#2610886)
David Foss - flip back to the first page of this very thread and read post #9.

Dan: it is still possible for an African-American baseball player to come from a football-first high school - see Milton Bradley.
   181. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: November 10, 2007 at 01:33 AM (#2610890)
Just curious what the players would say who deseves who is not in .. Would Santo , Pinson , Billy Williams, Al Oliver, be mentioned ?


Williams has been in the HOF for years now. As for the others, Santo is easily the best and very deserving of the honor.
   182. Toledo66 Posted: November 10, 2007 at 02:27 PM (#2611171)
Thanks Murph, Billy Willaims was so underrrated that i never knew he was elected to Hall.

I think Ron Santo is past due , he should be in Hall.
   183. Repoz Posted: November 10, 2007 at 02:34 PM (#2611176)
The baseball coach there became a bit of a legend due to these guys (can't find his name right now).

That would be George Powles, I believe.
   184. Toledo66 Posted: November 15, 2007 at 05:47 AM (#2615383)
What about Bert Blyleven ?? Not sure of spelling, Is he in HOF ?? If not he is the best choice who is not in !!
   185. OCF Posted: November 15, 2007 at 06:33 AM (#2615432)
Bert Blyleven is not in the Hall of Fame. Here at the Hall of Merit, we elected him overwhelmingly to our Hall. The opinion that he is the best eligible candidate not elected to the Hall of Fame would not be considered silly or outrageous among our group - even many of those who would put some other candidate first would still put Blyleven among a very small handful of candidates at the top of the list.
   186. Toledo66 Posted: November 15, 2007 at 06:39 AM (#2615438)
Cant beleive he is not in !!!

Minnesota has a hard tme getting players in except Puckett , Carew , -- What about Jack Morris ??
   187. OCF Posted: November 15, 2007 at 07:21 AM (#2615476)
The assertion that Jack Morris is one of the best eligible candidates for the Hall of Fame would be considered silly in this forum. In our most recent election, only one out of 48 voters had Morris on a ballot, and that was a 13th place vote. The following pitchers all got better support from us than Morris: Bret Saberhagen, Dick Redding, Bucky Walters, Luis Tiant, David Cone, Tommy Bridges, Burleigh Grimes, Don Newcombe, Mickey Welch, Rich Reuschel, Dizzy Dean, Tommy John, Vic Willis, Lee Smith, Carl Mays, Addie Joss, Frank Tanana, Bruce Sutter, Wilbur Cooper, Jack Quinn, Dwight Gooden, Ed Cicotte, Urban Shocker, Jim Kaat, Lefty Gomez, Jim McCormick, Sam Leever, Dizzy Trout, Virgil Trucks, and Tommy Bond. And maybe a couple of others whose names I missed on the list.

Jack Morris is far, far better supported by the writers of the BBWAA than he is by us.
   188. Delorians Posted: November 15, 2007 at 07:36 PM (#2616002)
Toledo66, here is a link that lists the current Hall of Famers:

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofmem.shtml
   189. Toledo66 Posted: November 19, 2007 at 12:29 PM (#2619747)
Does anyone know where you can see some old clips or videos of these HOFers ?? Game of the week started in 1965 ?? I think it would great to see these players again especially Frank Robinson - Cincinnati Reds 1965, Clemente, Mays, Aaron , Kaline, etc..
And of course Vada Pinson !!
Does anyone know if there are any 1964- 65 Videos or Dvds of Highlights or games from that time , GAME OF THE WEEK ?

Thanks .
   190. DL from MN Posted: November 19, 2007 at 03:59 PM (#2619864)
Check out "When it Was a Game" or "Home Run Derby" on DVD.
   191. timsthunderbird Posted: November 22, 2007 at 02:24 PM (#2623294)
In regards to Vada Pinson,I support his being a Hall of Famer for some additional reasons I have never seen anyone mention.Everyone knows he was an excellent hitter for the first half of his career but even in 70' and 72' he was the 15th leading hitter in the American League,this is official,get the 71' and 73' baseball guides and you will see him round out the 15 leading qualifiers in both 70' and 72'.He was a 5 tool player. When Brooks Robinson and Bill Mazeroski made it into the hall,a big part of their legacy was their fielding,particularly Mazeroski.Perhaps too much time has passed but Pinson was an excellent fielder,a gold glover in 61' and led the NL in putouts from 59-61',He was f'ing fast on the base paths,early in his career and even up to 67',he was considered among the fastest players in the league,considered by many in 59' to the early 60's as the fastest,Mickey Mantle also quoted as saying this about Pinson in the 61' series.He stole over 300 bases even though Frank Robinson hit behind him half of his career,Pinson had good power and with Robinson behind him did not need to steal too often,it would not make sense.In June of 63' during a 26 game period,Pinson hit 8 triples!!! thats a good season's worth of triples.He could field,had a good arm,could hit for power and average,he was a complete 5 tool player.The only reason his 2nd half of his career he slipped is because of small nagging injuries,but even then based on the context of the times in the early 70's,for instance his 72' season was a fine season for that time.He was hitting .298 as late as September 9th,but tailed off the last 3 weeks of the season.There was a lot of press releases with favorable accolades on Pinson in the late 50's to mid 60's.I am not saying he was a top flight hall of famer but i do believe he is a marginal hall of famer.He was a threat at the plate and on the base paths constantly,his presence could shake up the opposing team.I just think his 59'-67' seasons allow him to "coast" in to the hall despite his downside slide,he took a long time to slide but his slide period from 68'-75' was longer than many guys' entire careers.Also, his .330 OBP versus someone with say .350 is just too miniscule a detraction to be a whole lot,the batters job is to create runs as he created 1,394 runs which adjusted to a 162 game season is about 86 runs created per season and for the era he played in was excellent.
   192. timsthunderbird Posted: November 22, 2007 at 02:44 PM (#2623303)
Almost forgot,the runs created was not 86,it was 91 runs created per 162 games. A couple of other cool things.In 65' he slipped in the outfield while chasing a fly ball,landed on his back,crawled backwards and caught the fly,wish I could have seen that. In his quest to get 300 stolen bases late in his career in his 17th season in September of 74' he stole 9 bases in September to reach an even 300 playing maybe 2/3 of the time,he was only starting against right handed pitching late in his career but he was still a regular when righties pitched.
   193. Toledo66 Posted: November 24, 2007 at 10:29 PM (#2624336)
Thanks Timsthunderbird. BTW - I heard Pinson and Robinson both drove Thunderbirds in Cincinnati from 61-65 !:)

Also someone wrote that watching Vada Pinson play Centerfield was like a chevy impala , sleek and smooth...

Well stated on Pinsons quest to HOF ! Marginal is better than having not ever being mentioned !!

Worth the drive from Toledo to Cincinnati in mid 60s

Thanks ,
Toledo66
   194. Toledo66 Posted: November 27, 2007 at 02:35 AM (#2625720)
OK -- SOME QUOTES ON PINSON SPORT MAGAZINE 1963 , from Managers of 1963 , they NL Managers ranked best players- JULY 1963

CENTERFIELDERS
1963

1. Willie Mays
2. Vada Pinson , quote, has exceptional speed , a 200 hit guy, Outstanding power for a small guy, can go get any fly ball . One of the future stars of the game:
3. Curt Flood
4. Bill Virdon ?
5. Willie Davis

Right Fielders

1. Frank Robinson Cincinnati Reds
2. Hank Aaron
3. Roberto Clemente
4. Felipe Alou
5. John Callison
   195. Toledo66 Posted: December 11, 2007 at 12:01 AM (#2640706)
Realistically, what would have to happen for Vada Pinson to get elected to HOF; besides having 3,000 hits.
Is there absolutely no chance for him ?? Just curious....

I think 1968- 69 cut him short with injuries. Finishing with 2,757 hits , would of been close to 3,000 if not for being injured and having off years..
   196. sunnyday2 Posted: December 11, 2007 at 12:17 AM (#2640729)
I don't think we're the ones who know the answer to that question. But there seems to be very little evidence to suggest his election is imminent. Is he better than some HoFers? No doubt. Is he going to get elected in any of our lifetimes? Probably not. Especially with the BBWAA and VC conspiring to keep out guys who were probably better.
   197. DanG Posted: December 11, 2007 at 07:36 PM (#2641535)
What would really help your case is to make favorable comparisons to existing hall of famers, using stats that the voters give weight to.

Also, if the BBWAA elects Dawson and the VC elects Oliva, that would give you new arguments, as well.
   198. DanG Posted: December 11, 2007 at 07:43 PM (#2641546)
Pinson trivia: when Vada came on the BBWAA for the 1981 election, he was one of three players in history with 250 HR and 250 SB.
   199. Toledo66 Posted: January 10, 2008 at 02:10 AM (#2665003)
Pinson has the numbers !

Rice should not go before Pinson.
   200. John (You Can Call Me Grandma) Murphy Posted: January 20, 2008 at 03:09 PM (#2672369)
Rice should not go before Pinson.


While I don't support his candidacy, Pinson was a much better player than Rice.
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