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Hall of Merit— A Look at Baseball's All-Time Best
Sunday, June 11, 2006
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Most Meritorious Player: 1983 Discussion (40 - 12:03pm, Jun 18)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Discussion (56 - 4:28pm, Jun 17)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Results (7 - 9:27pm, Jun 15)Last: Chris FluitMost Meritorious Player: 1982 Ballot (25 - 4:13pm, Jun 07)Last: DL from MN2014 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion (86 - 8:02pm, May 23)Last: Ivan Grushenko of Hong KongMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Results (11 - 3:30pm, May 16)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Discussion (72 - 10:54am, May 13)Last: bjhankeMost Meritorious Player: 1981 Ballot (47 - 9:51am, May 06)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1979 Discussion (115 - 2:09pm, Apr 19)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Results (10 - 12:23pm, Apr 15)Last: DL from MNGeorge Scales (70 - 10:52am, Apr 10)Last: Ivan Grushenko of Hong KongLarry Doby (94 - 12:28am, Apr 10)Last: KJOKMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Ballot (21 - 11:03pm, Apr 09)Last: DL from MNMost Meritorious Player: 1980 Discussion (45 - 1:04am, Apr 09)Last: lieiamMost Meritorious Player: 1979 Results (12 - 4:30pm, Mar 14)Last: TomH
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I think it was Braves manager Bobby Bragan who took Aaron aside one season in the early 1960s and told him, "The only reason Willie Mays is considered better than you is because he steals bases. From now on, anytime you get on first and feel like stealing a base, you have the green light."
Is this your way of telling us that "rico vanian" is just a pseudonym and that your real name is J. Henry Waugh?
1. People who saw him have told me that Willie Mays was as good or even better than Jackie Robinson on the bases. It wasn't just that he was fast or that he was smart, but he was fast and smart and an improvisational genius. That he was the only guy in history whose feet and brain and instincts worked together to make him better than any relay throw.
2. I don't think it's mentioned with Mays nearly as much as the WWII guys, but Mays also missed time in the service. Thus, he could have had even more ridiculous career numbers.
3. Even so, I think it is fitting that Mays isn't really tied to one statistic ("755" or "714" or "61" or "56" or ".406"). What he really is, is baseball's unmatched perfect player.
4. I suppose if you were to construct some sort of GREATNESS*DURABILITIY*CONSISTENCY stat, Mays would be at the top of the list, followed by Aaron, Cobb and Musial.
"Now tagging out Willie Mays in a rundown is like trying to run over a squirrel with a lawnmower..."
You should check through this thread and the 1979 discussion thread. My guess is that we thought he was young enough and was in the NgL so early that it was appropriate to say that he would not have likely spent any significant amount of time in the majors prior to his callup during his age-20 season.
Year SFrac BWAA BRWAA FWAA Replc WARP1951 0.80 1.8 0.1 0.7 -1.1 3.7
1952 0.94 3.5 0.3 1.3 -1.3 6.4
1953 0.92 4.2 0.2 0.9 -1.5 6.8
1954 0.98 6.7 0.1 1.9 -1.5 10.3
1955 1.04 7.2 0.6 0.9 -1.6 10.3
1956 1.01 4.5 0.6 0.3 -1.6 7.0
1957 1.02 6.9 0.1 -0.1 -1.5 8.4
1958 1.05 7.1 0.6 0.8 -1.6 10.1
1959 1.00 5.6 0.6 0.0 -1.6 7.8
1960 1.03 6.1 0.3 0.3 -1.6 8.3
1961 1.02 5.8 0.1 -0.1 -1.4 7.2
1962 1.03 5.7 0.4 1.2 -1.3 8.6
1963 1.00 6.7 0.3 0.4 -1.2 8.5
1964 0.99 6.2 0.4 1.3 -1.0 8.9
1965 0.94 6.9 0.1 1.6 -1.1 9.7
1966 0.93 4.4 0.2 1.4 -1.1 7.1
1967 0.81 2.1 0.3 0.9 -0.9 4.3
1968 0.86 5.2 0.2 0.3 -0.9 6.6
1969 0.68 2.1 0.2 -0.3 -0.7 2.7
1970 0.82 3.7 0.2 -0.4 -0.9 4.4
1971 0.79 4.8 0.5 -0.5 -0.9 5.7
1972 0.47 1.6 -0.2 -0.4 -0.6 1.6
1973 0.35 -0.5 -0.1 0.1 -0.4 0.0
TOTL 20.48 108.3 6.1 12.5 -27.3 154.4
AVRG 1.00 5.3 0.3 0.6 -1.3 7.5
3-year peak: 30.7
7-year prime: 66.4
Career: 154.4
Salary: $521,495,349 (6th among post-1893 position players; below Cobb and above Speaker.)
However, it's worth noting that both TotalZone and DRA think these numbers sell his fielding short by a good 50 runs from 1956-73, and obviously his reputation bolsters that notion. if I use the average of DRA and TotalZone instead of BP FRAA and Fielding Win Shares, and use Dan Fox's EqBRR for baserunning, I get the following. Note that I am not regressing these defensive stats back to the mean to match the overall Chris Dial Zone Rating standard deviation, so this should be considered somewhat favorable to Mays (and all positive outliers) by definition--19 fielding wins seems like a heck of a lot even for the best defensive CF evar. But here you go:
Year SFrac BWAA BRWAA FWAA Replc WARP1951 0.80 1.9 0.0 0.7 -1.1 3.7
1952 0.94 3.5 0.3 1.3 -1.3 6.4
1953 0.92 4.2 0.2 0.9 -1.5 6.8
1954 0.98 6.8 0.0 1.9 -1.5 10.3
1955 1.04 7.3 0.5 1.2 -1.6 10.6
1956 1.01 4.6 0.2 2.0 -1.6 8.4
1957 1.02 7.0 0.0 0.6 -1.5 9.1
1958 1.05 7.1 0.6 1.2 -1.6 10.5
1959 1.00 5.7 0.6 0.2 -1.6 8.1
1960 1.03 6.2 0.2 0.8 -1.6 8.8
1961 1.02 5.9 0.2 0.5 -1.4 8.0
1962 1.03 5.7 0.3 1.6 -1.3 9.0
1963 1.00 6.9 0.2 0.8 -1.2 9.0
1964 0.99 6.3 0.5 1.4 -1.0 9.2
1965 0.94 7.0 0.1 1.0 -1.1 9.1
1966 0.93 4.5 -0.2 2.2 -1.1 7.6
1967 0.81 2.2 0.5 1.2 -0.9 4.9
1968 0.86 5.3 0.3 0.2 -0.9 6.6
1969 0.68 2.2 -0.1 -0.2 -0.7 2.5
1970 0.82 3.7 0.3 -0.4 -0.9 4.5
1971 0.79 4.9 0.5 0.3 -0.9 6.5
1972 0.47 1.6 -0.1 -0.4 -0.6 1.7
1973 0.35 -0.5 -0.1 0.1 -0.4 0.0
TOTL 20.49 110.1 5.0 19.0 -27.2 161.4
AVRG 1.00 5.4 0.2 0.9 -1.3 7.9
3-year peak: 31.4
7-year prime: 67.8
Career: 161.4
Salary: $555,926,690 (Still just short of Cobb at $560M).
The Splendid Splinter, by contrast, is still at $645M. Yes, there's a league strength difference in favor of Mays, but I can't imagine it would be anything close to $90M (which is the career value of a Ken Griffey Sr. or Jesse Barfield).
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