Reminds me of the old joke about the Almighty getting a phone call from Satan challenging him to a Heaven/Hell baseball game.

God: "Are you kidding? I've got the greatest ballplayers of all time up here!"

Devil: "That's okay... I've got all the umpires."

Mathews instead of Foxx? Hmmm.

It's not like Gehrig needs a rest or anything.

Roger Clemens: But I'm not dead yet.
Ned Flanders: Hey listen, I did a favor for you!

Jackie Robinson is not needed on that team. I'd take Foxx instead, You've got a real shortage of RH power.

I think it's delightful that even in death, someone is keeping Josh Gibson out of the mix.

#notdelightfulatall

I think it's delightful that even in death, someone is keeping Josh Gibson out of the mix.

White guilt is the individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some white people for the racist treatment of people of color by whites both historically and presently.

Jackie Robinson is not needed on that team. I'd take Foxx instead, You've got a real shortage of RH power.

I'd take Jackie for roster purposes - you can stock up on big boppers and pitchers with the rest of the roster. Robinson's the best utility man ever. Collins and Hornsby are both clearly better than Robinson, but for roster building I'd take Foxx over one of them.

As Howie points out, the shortage of RH power can be easily remedied while at the same time massively upgrading the catcher position.

White guilt is the individual or collective guilt often said to be felt by some white people for the racist treatment of people of color by whites both historically and presently.

Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all time by the merits, but your hangups about race are noted.

It is interesting that in spite of the countless number of actual competitive baseball games played between white and black players for decades prior to 1947 - and the matter-of-fact recognition by white players who hardly were bleeding hearts of the quality of the top Negro League players - it is difficult for some people to fathom the idea that a pre-Jackie black player could be as good as the best white players.

Too bad none of the later black players of that era got to compete in the majors, too, because then we could actually tell pretty well whether the top players were similarly skilled. Oh, wait....

JB in the comments:

I agree that Gibson was probably the greatest catcher ever, almost certainly the greatest dead catcher, and I should have at least mentioned that.

He based the list off picking a WAR list from BBref.

But why limit yourself?

Can't speak for that guy, but it's funny that many people scoff condescendingly at religious folks but treat WAR as a sacrament.

Can't speak for that guy, but it's funny that many people scoff condescendingly at religious folks but treat WAR as a sacrament.

Nothing funny at all. WAR is based on logic, religion is totally illogical.

it's funny that many people scoff condescendingly at religious folks but treat WAR as a sacrament.

That's not what a sacrament is.

Bernstein's never scoffed at religious folks, as far I know, so this just reads as a pointlessly ####-stirring non sequitur. (And hey look, you caught some fish trolling that hook.)

Anyway, Bernstein's just playing around on a blog. I do think he's missing major concerns in evaluating and comparing old-time ballplayers, in part because he didn't engage enough with what WAR is and how it works. That's a perfectly fair critique, there's no reason to lard unrelated political rhetoric on top of it.

Gibson should be there instead of Dickey.

C - Gibson, Cochrane
1B - Gehrig, Foxx
2B - Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie
SS - Wagner, Davis
3B - Mathews
RF - Ruth
CF - Speaker, Cobb, Mantle
LF - Williams, Musial
P - Johnson, Mathewson, Alexander, Young, Nichols, Spahn, Feller, Paige, Grove

The third catcher is Foxx. Davis, Hornsby and Wagner all played a decent amount of 3B, Cobb and Musial both played a lot of RF, and Ted played RF his rookie year. Hornsby would be the emergency SS. This staff only needs 9 pitchers, with Ruth as the 10th pitcher if needed.

This team could bat all LHers aganst Righties, and could bat 7 RHers against lefties if they used Lajoie at 2B, Hornsby at 3B and Davis in the OF.

How come nobody picks Rocky Marciano as the best heavyweight of all time? Look at his record!

Seeing Glenn Davis on the all-time team was a surprise. I mean, I didn't know he had died.

Dickey, Cochrane
Gehrig, Hornsby, Collins, J. Robinson, Wagner, G. Davis, Mathews
T. Williams, Cobb, Speaker, Mantle, Ruth, Musial

Without Foxx you have no 3rd catcher.

it's funny that many people scoff condescendingly at religious folks but treat WAR as a sacrament.

From the article:

(Aside: B-R's WAR is fine, in my view, but because of how easy it is to access, it seems to be everyone's go-to all-in-one stat and is therefore quite a bit overused, from what I see. Although I don't see all that much these days, so I guess it depends, and I'm certainly very guilty of it myself).

So he agrees.

In addition:

Bernstein's never scoffed at religious folks

JB observes the high holy days, so I don't know the level of his devotion, but he's at least conversant with a major religion.

Unfortunately, I think Gary Carter should be the 2nd catcher.

It's perfectly fine to make a list like this and leave Josh Gibson off. Everyone (as in literally everyone on the planet) knows more about the quality of individual players from old-time MLB than the Negro Leagues. Some of us know quite a bit more. So if someone is more comfortable making an MLB only list, that's fine.

The problem with putting Gibson on the list is that you'd better consider other players, too. Oscar Charleston, for starters, who hasn't been mentioned in this thread. Personally, I don't feel qualified to evaluate all Negro League players fairly, which is why I stick to MLB only when making such lists. Obviously I know Gibson was better than Dickey and Cochrane. But putting only him on strikes me as tokenism.

And then there's Japan...

Is it safe to question whether Gibson would've been kept at catcher if he were white?

Personally, I don't feel qualified to evaluate all Negro League players fairly, which is why I stick to MLB only when making such lists. Obviously I know Gibson was better than Dickey and Cochrane. But putting only him on strikes me as tokenism.

If you want to make a list without Negro Leaguers, call it an "MLB-only" team. Don't call it an all-time team.

Also, Charleston's numbers, while great, do not show him to have been quite the equal of his rough contemporaries Speaker and Cobb. He belongs on a lot of lists, but not necessarily this one. I considered Charleston as well before commenting about Gibson, but my evaluation was that he's a bit short.

Smokey Joe Williams and Satchel Paige both deserve slots on the pitching staff of this team.

a Heaven/Hell baseball game

Now that would be fun, aside from the umpiring issue.

HEAVEN

C Roy Campanella
1B Lou Gehrig
2B Charlie Gehringer
3B Eddie Mathews
SS Honus Wagner
OF Babe Ruth
OF Oscar Charleston
OF Stan Musial
P Satchel Paige

HELL

C Pierzynski's alive, so ... Thurman Munson?
1B Hal Chase
2B Rogers Hornsby
3B John McGraw
SS Leo Durocher
OF Joe Jackson
OF Ty Cobb
OF [kept warm for Pete Rose]
P Carl Mays

Is it safe to question whether Gibson would've been kept at catcher if he were white?

Reading about Gibson in John Holway's books, years ago, I did wonder about this. I saw him as about Joe DiMaggio at the plate, but rather ordinary behind it. In reading more as analysis has improved, I imagine he was a somewhat better hitter than DiMaggio, and a better catcher than I thought – IOW by all likelihood both a better hitter and better catcher than Mike Piazza. (Others know a lot more about this than I do and can correct my impressions.)

So it may be a question of era. Piazza himself would have been moved off catcher if he'd played in some eras when catchers were pure defenders. Conversely, translate Gibson into the Piazza's era, and sure, he'd have stayed at catcher; why not? In and just before Gibson's own day, some superb hitters stayed at catcher: Cochrane, Hartnett, Dickey. Was Gibson that much inferior to them defensively? Probably not, is the picture I'm developing; at least, not a butcher. If Ernie Lombardi could catch in those days, then certainly Gibson.

How about a team of dead players who played a game after 1980?

The 20s through the 50s were probably the easiest time in baseball history to be a catcher. No one ran, and bunting had fallen off a lot, too. It's hard to say how many of the great catchers of this era, Gibson included, could have handled the position if they'd come up alongside Johnny Bench.

Given the array of doubtful athletes who remained at catcher in the big leagues during this period, I don't see Gibson as a particular outlier.

Seeing Glenn Davis on the all-time team was a surprise. I mean, I didn't know he had died.

Not sure how serious this is, but just in case, they're referring to the 1890s SS, not the Astros' 1980s 1B, who as far as I know is very much alive.

On second thought, the shortstop's name is George, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

The problem with putting Gibson on the list is that you'd better consider other players, too.

So it's a problem that you should consider ALL players in the ALL-time ALL-dead Team?

Robinson's the best utility man ever.

What about Dihigo?

EDIT: Cap Anson might be a good option on the "Hell" team.

It's perfectly fine to make a list like this and leave Josh Gibson off. Everyone (as in literally everyone on the planet) knows more about the quality of individual players from old-time MLB than the Negro Leagues. Some of us know quite a bit more. So if someone is more comfortable making an MLB only list, that's fine.

As Bill James said, I'd rather misrank the great Negro Leaguers then to exclude them all over again.

I think Gibson and Paige clearly belong on the team. Charelston certainly is close, and may in fact have been better than Speaker. He seems to have been like a Speaker with more HR power, but probably playing in a weaker league than the AL or the NL.

Robinson's the best utility man ever.

If he wasn't already the best SS, Wagner may be the best utility man. At various times he was a regular at RF, 3B and 1B, and played almost all his games in CF as a rookie.

Everyone (as in literally everyone on the planet) knows more about the quality of individual players from old-time MLB than the Negro Leagues.

Everyone (who cares enough to have an opinion) thinks they know more about the quality of individual white players pre-integration than black players, but do they? Evaluating the white players of that era runs you into the exact same problem as evaluating the black players: they played in a segregated league, so their statistics were not compiled against all of the best available players.

Smokey Joe Williams may well have been better then Paige, and both belong on a 10-12 man pitching staff for this team.

If he wasn't already the best SS, Wagner may be the best utility man. At various times he was a regular at RF, 3B and 1B, and played almost all his games in CF as a rookie.

Look at the 1901 Pirates page on BB-Ref. Wagner played in every game for the Pirates that year (140) but isn't listed as a starter, because somebody else played at least a little bit more at all nine positions.

If you want to make a list without Negro Leaguers, call it an "MLB-only" team. Don't call it an all-time team.

QFT I

Everyone (who cares enough to have an opinion) thinks they know more about the quality of individual white players pre-integration than black players, but do they? Evaluating the white players of that era runs you into the exact same problem as evaluating the black players: they played in a segregated league, so their statistics were not compiled against all of the best available players.

QFT II.

Not to mention that when the Negro League players of the time competed with the Major Leaguers, they more than held their own. And if you take a look at the offensive leaderboards of the only league (the NL) that made a real attempt to integrate in the 1947-65 era, you'll see that it's dominated way disproportionately by African American players.

On second thought, the shortstop's name is George, so I'm not sure what you're getting at.

Humor detector at the shop this week, Delorians?

also funny are responses that remove the "Can't speak for that guy," from my sentence.

I'll concede that I could/should have worded the rest of the sentence differently to avoid risk of unneeded tangent, though the intended point about WAR worship in general stands.

And maybe the parsers can concede that it's not cool to repost only part of someone else's sentence, particularly if it makes the point being made somewhat irrelevant...

Josh Gibson is the greatest catcher of all time by the merits, but your hangups about race are noted.

I really don't know how you can say that so definitively. He may have been, but "among the greatest" is about the most I think one can say with certainty.

I mean we've got 1987 PAs spread over 16 years against competition of uncertain quality. Do we even know if he could have physically held up to catching 130-140 games a year like Bench and Berra did?

Gibson caught tons of games, they just weren't mostly league games.

Basically, if Gibson wasn't the greatest catcher of his time, then no one in the Negro Leagues in the 30s and 40s - whom he consistently out-hit - was more than a very marginal Hall of Famer. The conversions required to knock Gibson down to the level of Dickey and Cochrane would take his peers out of the Hall altogether.

I can see an era-based case for either Bench or Piazza as the greatest ever. But without very heavy timelining, it just doesn't work.

With all of the exhibition and winter games Gibson played in other countries he probably caught more games in some years than any major league catcher ever did.

[26] How about a team of dead players who played a game after 1980?

C: Carter
1B: Porter
2B: Uribe
SS: Belanger
3B: Caminiti
LF: Stargell
CF: Puckett
RF: Bobby Bonds


SP: Joe Niekro, Flanagan, Perez, Kile, Splittorff, (Fidrych, Lima :-) )
RP: Quisenberry, McGraw, Beck, Howe

                                                            
Rk              Player WAR/pos Died From   To  OPS       Pos
1          Gary Carter    66.4 2012 1974 1992 .773   *29/375
2          Bobby Bonds    55.7 2003 1968 1981 .824    *98/D7
3      Willie Stargell    54.2 2001 1962 1982 .889    *73/98
4        Kirby Puckett    48.2 2006 1984 1995 .837 *89/D7456
5       Darrell Porter    37.8 2002 1971 1987 .763     *2D/3
6        Mark Belanger    37.6 1998 1965 1982 .580     *6/45
7         Ken Caminiti    30.9 2004 1987 2001 .794     *5/3D
8         Bobby Murcer    29.0 2008 1965 1983 .802  98D/7564
9            Al Cowens    12.4 2002 1974 1986 .722   *98/D75
10   Aurelio Rodriguez    11.7 2000 1967 1983 .626   *5/64D3
11         John Milner    11.1 2000 1971 1982 .757     37/98
12       Ivan Calderon    10.2 2003 1984 1993 .775    97D/38
13             Bo Diaz    10.1 1990 1977 1989 .684      *2/D
14           Pat Kelly     9.1 2005 1967 1981 .731    *97D/8
15          Ryan Freel     7.9 2012 2001 2009 .723    8954/7
16          Jose Uribe     7.3 2006 1984 1993 .613      *6/4

                                                                                      
Rk                 Player  WAR Died   To From   To   Age   W   L  W-L%  SV     IP ERA+
1              Joe Niekro 25.3 2006 1988 1967 1988 22-43 221 204  .520  16 3584.1   98
2         Dan Quisenberry 23.9 1998 1990 1979 1990 26-37  56  46  .549 244 1043.1  146
3           Mike Flanagan 22.8 2011 1992 1975 1992 23-40 167 143  .539   4 2770.0  100
4              Tug McGraw 19.7 2004 1984 1965 1984 20-39  96  92  .511 180 1514.2  117
5         Paul Splittorff 19.5 2011 1984 1970 1984 23-37 166 143  .537   1 2554.2  101
6            Dave Roberts 19.4 2009 1981 1969 1981 24-36 103 125  .452  15 2099.0   97
7             Darryl Kile 18.3 2002 2002 1991 2002 22-33 133 119  .528   0 2165.1  104
8           Pascual Perez 17.9 2012 1991 1980 1991 23-34  67  68  .496   0 1244.1  110
9             Rick Mahler 17.3 2005 1991 1979 1991 25-37  96 111  .464   6 1951.1   96
10              Jim Bibby 16.5 2010 1984 1972 1984 27-39 111 101  .524   8 1722.2   99
11          Woodie Fryman 16.0 2011 1983 1966 1983 26-43 141 155  .476  58 2411.1   96
12             Bob Forsch 16.0 2011 1989 1974 1989 24-39 168 136  .553   3 2794.2   98
13              Eric Show 13.4 1994 1991 1981 1991 25-35 101  89  .532   7 1655.0   99 ...


16           Mark Fidrych 10.8 2009 1980 1976 1980 21-25  29  19  .604   0  412.1  126
17               Rod Beck 10.7 2007 2004 1991 2004 22-35  38  45  .458 286  768.0  124
 ...
20             Steve Howe  9.7 2006 1996 1980 1996 22-38  47  41  .534  91  606.0  130
 ...
34              Jose Lima  4.1 2010 2006 1994 2006 21-33  89 102  .466   5 1567.2   85

Humor detector at the shop this week, Delorians?

I guess so. With Glenn being obviously underqualified for this team, and the article referencing George, i don't see the humor in the original post.

Basically, if Gibson wasn't the greatest catcher of his time, then no one in the Negro Leagues in the 30s and 40s - whom he consistently out-hit - was more than a very marginal Hall of Famer. The conversions required to knock Gibson down to the level of Dickey and Cochrane would take his peers out of the Hall altogether.


That's a different question. I'd agree he was almost certainly better than Dickey and Cochrane.

I can see an era-based case for either Bench or Piazza as the greatest ever. But without very heavy timelining, it just doesn't work.

Honest question. How do we have any idea about how the quality of pitching Gibson faced compares to that Bench or Berra faced? The guys who pitched in the games vs. MLBers would have been the elite of the NeL pitchers.

With all of the exhibition and winter games Gibson played in other countries he probably caught more games in some years than any major league catcher ever did.

Was he catching in those games, or playing 1B?

Everyone (who cares enough to have an opinion) thinks they know more about the quality of individual white players pre-integration than black players, but do they? Evaluating the white players of that era runs you into the exact same problem as evaluating the black players: they played in a segregated league, so their statistics were not compiled against all of the best available players.

"But there are stats!" is mainly what it comes down to.

In reality there is a substantial fuzz factor in any comparison between eras. All we really know about Ty Cobb is he dominated the times and conditions he played in. Those "real" numbers don't tell us how he would fare in another context. But the numbers were recorded, so people fool themselves into thinking they can apply factor X to Cobb's stats and have an excellent approximation of what Cobb would do in a "neutral" context (disregarding that there is no such thing as a neutral context.) It's all hogwash.

against all levels of competition Gibson hit 69 home runs in 1934; the same year in league games he hit 11 home runs in 52 games.

In 1933 he hit .467 with 55 home runs in 137 games against all levels of competition. His lifetime batting average is said to be higher than .350, with other sources putting it as high as .384, the best in Negro league history.

The Baseball Hall of Fame maintains he hit "almost 800" homers in his 17-year career against Negro league and independent baseball opposition. His lifetime batting average, according to the Hall's official data, was .359. It was reported that he won nine home run titles and four batting championships playing for the Crawfords and the Grays. It is also believed that Gibson hit a home run in a Negro league game at Yankee Stadium that struck two feet from the top of the wall circling the center field bleachers, about 580 feet (180 m) from home plate. Although it has never been conclusively proven, Chicago American Giants infielder Jack Marshall said Gibson slugged one over the third deck next to the left field bullpen in 1934 for the only fair ball hit out of Yankee Stadium. Washington Senators owner Clark Griffith once said that Gibson hit more home runs into Griffith Stadium's distant left field bleachers than the entire American League.

Was he catching in those games, or playing 1B?

He primarily caught, but he also spent some time in the outfield when he was younger, just like Gary Carter and Johnny Bench.

Washington Senators owner Clark Griffith once said that Gibson hit more home runs into Griffith Stadium's distant left field bleachers than the entire American League.

Griffith exaggerated, but not by that much. In 1943, in perhaps his most amazing slugging exhibition, Gibson hit 10 home runs in 40 games at Griffith Stadium, while the Senators hit 9 in 77 games, and the rest of the American League hit another 14. In 1945, Gibson hit "at least" 4 home runs in Griffith, but the second place Nats only hit 1 all year, and the entire rest of the AL only added another 6. (Source: Brad Snyder, Beyond The Shadow Of The Senators, p. 171 and p. 227; Macmillan Baseball Encyclopedia, 1996 ed., pp. 660-661)

this team would have a blatant chemistry issue. if you have any black players on the team, you need to get rid of speaker, hornsby, and maybe cobb although i think you could convince cobb to stay eventually. there are lots of good choices for replacing hornsby. he already has collins and jackie robinson, so you could go with lajoie. gehringer also available. or you could go with a defensive second baseman like mcphee, pfeffer, et al. you could get character guys or guys who would accept a backup role. of course, you may not need any of them as you already have capable players. i also think george davis is a poor shortsop choice. not as many great hitters to replace him with but you could go with a player like hughie jennings. he eventually learned to hit and he was obviously a great fielder. also, would you want more black players so they wouldn't gang up on one if there was a problem? who to replace speaker with? how about the criminally underrated ed delahanty, who i have as the best player in baseball 5 different times (no one had more than 3 before him)?

if anyone cares, i did a "conversion" on josh gibson to estimate what his mlb stats would be, i basically got mike piazza's stats but with more triples. so i guess gibson was a piazza-like hitting catcher before piazza.

if anyone cares, i did a "conversion" on josh gibson to estimate what his mlb stats would be, i basically got mike piazza's stats but with more triples. so i guess gibson was a piazza-like hitting catcher before piazza.

That sounds fair.