If you're one of the six Marlins fans left, how patronizing does this feel? I mean, there's pretty much no chance Selig actually blocks the trade, right?

He should say that if Miami builds another new stadium - say in northern California - he will veto the trade.

If he vetoes the deal... it will be the biggest travesty since Jack Tunney vacated the WWF Title after Andre the Giant beat Hulk Hogan and gave the belt to Ted Dibiase.

If you're one of the six Marlins fans left, how patronizing does this feel?

I'd be more upset if I was one of the Miami residents who wasn't a fan, since I'm still on the hook for the stadium payments.

As much as it sucks for the Marlins, if Selig vetoes the deal, how can you explain that to Toronto and its fans? After you've approved every other salary dump in histroy, including the Red Sox dumping all their contracts 4 months ago. I would personally burn his mansion down.

If he vetoes the deal... it will be the biggest travesty since Jack Tunney vacated the WWF Title after Andre the Giant beat Hulk Hogan and gave the belt to Ted Dibiase.

Thanks to Loria, there wasn't even a need to get an evil twin referee involved in this whole mess.

Bud's just feeling for their wallet.

I have to admit though, if he were to veto the deal, it probably would be even more ugly than if he let it go through. I mean, there are more Blue Jays fans than there are Marlins fans...

I have to admit though, if he were to veto the deal, it probably would be even more ugly than if he let it go through. I mean, there are more Blue Jays fans than there are Marlins fans.

And now we see the full depth of Loria's evil master-mind: some of those Blue Jays' fans may be former Expos' fans!

Also, as evil as the Marlins are, this isn't purely just selling players. Some of the prospects going their way are quite promising.

Unless it's to promulgate new guidelines on salary dumps going forward, Selig has no basis to do anything to or for anyone regarding this trade.

some of those Blue Jays' fans may be former Expos' fans!

Perhaps, but my experience is that Expos fans tended to hate the Blue Jays, while Blue Jays fans cheered for the Expos.

Unless it's to promulgate new guidelines on salary dumps going forward, Selig has no basis to do anything to or for anyone regarding this trade.

Sure he does: best interest of the game. He has the power as commissioner to veto trades. He could justify it a number of ways:

--This is a pattern of dishonesty by the Marlins that hurts MLB's credibility with players and its fans.
--This hurts MLB's credibility with cities that it wants to contribute to ballparks.
--The trade is simply unfair.

Now, even if he believes any of these, he won't do it because he's Bud Selig. And rule #1 as Bud Selig is that fairness, rules, credibility, and other good things take a back seat to throwing up one's hands.

Some of the prospects going their way are quite promising.

Agree: I don't think the Marlins got as good a return as they should have, but they seem to have been reading one of the chapters of the Official BPro Success Cycle™ Masters' Manual, the one on What to Do with Players Who Will Not Be Part of the Next Championship Team.

And now we see the full depth of Loria's evil master-mind: some of those Blue Jays' fans may be former Expos' fans!

I thought Montreal looked down on Toronto in all things?

And rule #1 as Bud Selig is that fairness, rules, credibility, and other good things take a back seat to throwing up one's hands.

He is the unrivaled master of the technique. Selig can throw up his hands while standing up, sitting down, eating a hot dog, riding a bicycle, or chained to a safe at the bottom of a swimming pool. No one ever has, and no one ever will, surpass Bud Selig's ability to throw up his hands.

Unless it's to promulgate new guidelines on salary dumps going forward, Selig has no basis to do anything to or for anyone regarding this trade.

He didn't have a basis for creating his ######## "one-time exception" on Melky Cabrera, but that didn't stop him.

As somebody already has said, if he didn't veto the Red Sox salary dump deal, it looks hard for him to kill this one.

Selig can throw up his hands while standing up, sitting down, eating a hot dog

He'd probably throw up the hot dog too.

Honest question: Is this THAT much different than the Red Sox selling off so much salary to the Dodgers ?

I realize the bang for buck calculations weighing WAR vs Dollars favor the group that went to Toronto vs. LA. But overeall, this has a similar feel to me.

I wouldn't have done what the Marlins did after the 2011 season. They are correcting mistakes. Better now than try to do it a year from now.

The difference, of course, is that we can reasonably expect the Red Sox to eventually re-invest the money into a good-faith attempt to construct a team that can contend and persevere, whereas we can't reasonably expect the Marlins to do that.

It seems to me like you can't veto the trade if you think Loria deserves to be an owner, and you can't not veto it if you think Loria doesn't deserve to be an owner. Since Loria has always been Selig's Angel of Death, I assume that this continues to be what Selig wants, although I'm honestly not sure why at this point.

Honest question: Is this THAT much different than the Red Sox selling off so much salary to the Dodgers ?

No. People are up in arms because of the Marlins' history, but the trade makes baseball sense.

And as to the Marlins' history, well, I think they've had it pretty good: two WS championships in two decades.

Has the franchise been owned and operated by sleazebags, aided and abetted by Bud Selig, and even more sleazy than the typical MLB shenanigans? Yes. But it wouldn't have happened without the comfort of local politicians, who are the real people responsible here. The focus on ownership and Bud Selig is misplaced, IMO. They may have lied in bringing undue pressure to bear, but their lies were utterly transparent to anyone paying attention, and they're not the ones who approved $500 million in public financing.

The difference, of course, is that we can reasonably expect the Red Sox to eventually re-invest the money into a good-faith attempt to construct a team that can contend and persevere, whereas we can't reasonably expect the Marlins to do that.

But what's the problem? The Marlins go all in periodically, and then hold a firesale. So the highs are high and the lows are low. While their motives have not been pure, it's actually not a bad approach to running a team from a pure baseball perspective. The fans have had exciting teams, exciting players, and exciting playoff runs.

yesjrj.

He didn't have a basis for creating his ######## "one-time exception" on Melky Cabrera, but that didn't stop him.

I thought Melky was the one who wanted to forfeit his chance at the Batting Title. No way the player's union would allow Bud to force that on a player.

The focus on ownership and Bud Selig is misplaced, IMO. They may have lied in bringing undue pressure to bear, but their lies were utterly transparent to anyone paying attention, and they're not the ones who approved $500 million in public financing.

All hail Lucien Bouchard and the Parti Quebecois!

But what's the problem? The Marlins go all in periodically, and then hold a firesale. So the highs are high and the lows are low. While their motives have not been pure, it's actually not a bad approach to running a team from a pure baseball perspective. The fans have had exciting teams, exciting players, and exciting playoff runs.

Except fans have pretty clearly shown that they don't like this approach -- since the Marlins have almost none left.

they're not the ones who approved $500 million in public financing.

Montréal politicians are corrupt, not suckers.

there are more Blue Jays fans than there are Marlins fans...

eh, they're Canadian they don't count. I can see the news reports now: "There were no American baseball fans harmed today when Bud Selig vetoed the trade between the Marlins and the Jays."

In addition to all the good reasons given above, what would be accomplished by vetoing the trade? Even Bowie Kuhn couldn't stop Finley from dumping his players, he just forced him to dump them for other players. The 2013 Marlins won't have any of these players on board and there's nothing Selig can really do about it. If I recall there's not a lot of money going in this deal and the Jays could either toss in another prospect or take on another salary to get Selig out of the trade altogether.

What Selig and the MLBPA might be able to do is "force" the Marlins to up payroll in the way they did before. If Selig has any legit concern here, it's that -- he doesn't want to open the can of worms around teams having to spend revenue sharing on actual baseball stuff (shocking!). The Marlins currently stand under $20 M; the Rays are under $30; the A's are under $40; the Asros? The Astros apparently currently stand at $0 committed with 6 arbs. With the lux tax acting even more like a salary cap, the Union can't let this continue.

Selig can throw up his hands while ... chained to a safe at the bottom of a swimming pool.

I bet you $100 he can't.

Actually the exchange rate on Canadian vs. American fans is .42CAN/1US. Therefore, the Toronto fans still outnumber Marlins fans by a good number.

Except fans have pretty clearly shown that they don't like this approach -- since the Marlins have almost none left.

Does this explain the lack of Rays fans as well? Maybe people in florida just don't give a #### about baseball?

Does this explain the lack of Rays fans as well? Maybe people in florida just don't give a #### about baseball?

Well, the Marlins were 5th in the NL in attendance in 1997, the year of their first World Series win. Then they sold off the whole team and fans never really came back. The Rays have never been higher than 7th in attendance, not even in their first season.

Montréal politicians are corrupt, not suckers.

FTFY

Florida is an AWESOME baseball state...

...in March.

FTFY

Too true. The mafia trials right now are riveting.

And now we see the full depth of Loria's evil master-mind: some of those Blue Jays' fans may be former Expos' fans!

waves

Bonsoir, comment ça va?

Honest question: Is this THAT much different than the Red Sox selling off so much salary to the Dodgers ?



No. People are up in arms because of the Marlins' history, but the trade makes baseball sense.

Yes, but as in all things, context matters. One part of the context, as you mention, is history. The Marlins do this repeatedly. The Red Sox have done it once. One trade like this, in isolation, does not a pattern make.

Part 2 would be the players involved. The Red Sox unloaded players, who together, had very negative value. They had a completely reasonable argument that their trade would make filling out their roster easier. They might have been wrong, but it was at least reasonably debatable. The Marlins package, on balance, was worth what they were being paid.

Three, the Red Sox did not just soak their city out a new stadium with the understanding that they'd compete. There's no trust between public and team being broken, a trust that Selig and other owners might like to trade on in the future (and of course, a trust that should be considered regardless of future dealings).

can anyone tell me when the last time the Comm'r veto'd a trade on this basis? Or am I missing something really major? Like A Rod's move or something? I dont really pay a close attention to that side of the game but..

Last one I can think of was the Vida Blue/Joe Rudi/Rollie Fingers sales.

who here is even a tiny bit surprised that loria got rid of ALL his players making over minimum the year after he kind of had to sign them?

what is all this veto the trade stuff? cmon. bud's idea of "the best interest of baseball" is whatever puts the most money in the owners pockets. and everyone knows that chronic losing/empty stadiums and low payrolls with crap players make millions for the owners of those teams.

loria figured this out long ago. along with the As. i guesss a new empty stadium makes money because of bookeeping reasons. the astros and everyone else who isn't gonna win is gonna keep payroll low too. taking a dive pays off. bud knows it and the owners know it and the only ones who don't are some taxpayers.

and why is everyone surprised about all the corrupt politicians taking money to build taxpayer funded stadiums? they aren't held accountable or punished in any way, so why not?

and all the FA who signed with the marlins should have known what was coming - i mean, loria is the baseball equivalent of a wife beater. promises that he is gonna be "different" are so much horsepoopoo

i'm surprised that it's all. i expected some, but not whole hog.

it was also invoked in 2002 to try to re align the Cubs as well as 2010 against some of the Rangers creditors. The Cubs thing failed due to a legal challenge.

loria is the baseball equivalent of a wife beater

This is great.

can anyone tell me when the last time the Comm'r veto'd a trade on this basis? Or am I missing something really major? Like A Rod's move or something? I dont really pay a close attention to that side of the game but..

According to a Mike Wilner tweet in TFA:

If trade is vetoed, it will be the first since Bowie Kuhn vetoed trade of 3 all-stars for straight cash in the '70s. There's NO precedent.

Coke to Darren, I assume this is the same deal.

Bud's just feeling for their wallet.

Him and Steve Lyons.

Yes, it's the same one. Blue was to go to the Yankees and Rudi and Fingers to the Red Sox. The big story, if I remember correctly, was that Rudi and Fingers had joined the Sox and Fingers were was warming up preparing to come into the game. He didn't get the call, but there was some speculation that if he had appeared, Kuhn would not have felt right about undoing the deal.