BBTF.org/m/giants : Will Clark Saved The Giants, And I Missed It

Saturday, May 25, 2013

SB Nation: The Rotation: The worst baseball conversations

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posted 2 hours ago by bobm to athletics, dead horses, definition of mvp, designated hitters, giants, old school, peds, proven closers, regression, territorial rights, war | 1 comment(s)

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1. Darkness and the howling fantods posted on July 28, 2012 at 07:48 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Edit: and now the quote is fixed. Thanks.

2. Esoteric throws a 'hard slider' posted on July 28, 2012 at 07:49 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Great article. RTFA. Makes me want to check out the book.

3. ShoeGrit posted on July 28, 2012 at 10:12 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Why did Clark lose his HR power after 1991 ?

87-91 hit a homer every 21 AB, 92 thru rest of career Homer every 28 AB.

Did he have a back injury or something ? I know he made up for a big chunk of that with more walks from 92 on....but just curious if an injury triggered the change in approach.

4. gef the talking mongoose posted on July 28, 2012 at 10:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Why did Clark lose his HR power after 1991 ?

Because he was my first ever fantasy pick in 1992.

5. Walt Davis posted on July 28, 2012 at 10:30 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In the comparison to Puckett -- Clark was pretty famous in his own right. _Everybody_ raved about his swing (understandably). 5 straight AS games (4 starts), 2nd in MVP in 1988. He never had Puckett's crowning moment of course and that is part of the difference but I don't think there's a single HoFer (by BBWAA vote) with a resume like Clark's to begin with. Of course I'm not sure anybody matches Puckett either.

I'd swear he had the nickname "the Natural" but b-r says no. In fact it says nobody ever has.

6. ShoeGrit posted on July 28, 2012 at 10:38 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Also, is there any way to use play index to look up

Final Season
Qualified for batting title
Ranked by OPS.

I can't imagine there are that many players who finished with higher than a 145 OPS+ in their final year and qualified for the batting title at the same time.

Bonds didn't qualify in his final season. Neither did Ted Williams.

7. asinwreck posted on July 28, 2012 at 10:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The author could sum up the pre-Clarkian Giants in two words: Johnnie LeMaster. The shortstop inspired a sense of pessimism among the faithful braving the frigid June nights in Candlestick Park. The team was inept and -- with Jack Clark as its biggest star -- plain unlikeable.

Will Clark not only hit as a rookie, he had charisma, confidence, and seemed to be having a great deal of fun. Quite a contrast from the Jim Davenport-led Giants the year before.

8. McCoy Wilfong for Money posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:13 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Will Clark killed the Cubs, and I didn't miss it.

9. bjhanke posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:15 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

My personal opinion, based on nothing but my own observations, is that Clark's lack of fame stems from his unfortunate speaking voice. I heard him talk on camera only twice, but that was enough. I knew then that "sportscaster" was not in his future, nor were "lots of interviews." It's not fair, of course. Your speaking voice, about which you can do approximately nothing, shouldn't interfere with your fame as a baseball player. But in Clarks' case, he just drew the wrong genetic straw. - Brock Hanke

10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:16 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Why did Clark lose his HR power after 1991 ?

87-91 hit a homer every 21 AB, 92 thru rest of career Homer every 28 AB.

Did he have a back injury or something ? I know he made up for a big chunk of that with more walks from 92 on....but just curious if an injury triggered the change in approach.

I believe it was a back injury. Or Rafael Palmeiro took an illegal elixir that made him switch careers with Will from that point on.

Also, is there any way to use play index to look up

Final Season
Qualified for batting title
Ranked by OPS.

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson 1920 - 172
2. Will Clark 2000 -145
3. Mickey Mantle 1968 - 143
4. Happy Felsch 1920 - 143
5. Buzz Arlett 1931 - 138
6. Steve Evans 1915 - 138
7. Frank Huelsman 1905 - 135
8. Frank Schulte 1918 - 134
9. Bill Keister 1903 - 133
10.Hank Greenburg 1947 - 131

Kirby Puckett is #11

11. ShoeGrit posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:20 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Clark's lack of fame stems from his unfortunate speaking voice. I heard him talk on camera only twice, but that was enough.

Can you describe his voice ? I don't recall what it sounds like.

The Giants developed outfielders—Bobby Bonds, George Foster, Garry Maddox, Gary Matthews—and then sprinkled them around the rest of the league like Johnny Outfielderseed, giving them away as if there were a concerted effort to keep the Giants awful.

I got a chuckle out of that.

12. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:22 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I remember Bill James (I think) somewhere describing the Giants of the 1970s as coming up with an amazing number of good outfielders--and getting rid of them all, because the Giants were in the bad habit of comparing them all to Willie Mays, and they weren't Willie Mays.

Will Clark would not do injustice to the Hall of Fame were he in it.

13. AndrewJ posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

1. Shoeless Joe Jackson 1920 - 172
2. Will Clark 2000 -145
3. Mickey Mantle 1968 - 143
4. Happy Felsch 1920 - 143
5. Buzz Arlett 1931 - 138

Jackson and Felsch's leaving had zero to do with injury and Arlett's final season was also his only season. So Will Clark's last year really was historically rare.

14. ShoeGrit posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:28 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Thanks for the list AF#1F

Interesting list, and really says a lot about Clarks decision to "go out on top" so to speak.

Mantle and Greenberg had walks and homers to make up their value, but with such low batting averages Clark was arguably the much better hitter than either at that point in their careers. Greenberg and Mantle were both 36 in their final seasons as well. But there was probably much more of a feeling of "this is about it" for both of them than there was for Clark following his final season.

I confess to knowing little about the guys number 4 thru 9 on the list...and of course Jackson doesn't need explanation. The "modern" examples of Greenberg and Mantle are the most relevant I guess....but in any case, what Clark did was pretty rare. Not so rare for a 36 yr. old. He ranks 20th in OPS+ for a 36 yr old. But that it was his last season is really odd.

15. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:28 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jackson and Felsch weren't voluntary retirements.

Clark had back issues. Mantle had knee issues.

Arlett played just one season in the big leagues - with the Phillies - and finished fourth in HR. But he was such a poor fielder, he was sold back to the International League where he held the home run record for over 50 years. He finished his career as the minor league record holder for home runs.

Evans final season came in the Federal League, which folded after his good season, and he wasn't able to catch on in the AL or NL.

Huelsman only played two seasons in the bigs, bouncing around with five clubs in 1904 before having his career season in 1905. He was then demoted.

Schulte lost all his power, but walked a ton, which keeps his OPS+ up.

Keister bounced around because of atrocious defense.

Injuries ended Greenburg's career.

Puckett was struck in the eye and lost his sight.

In the divisional era, only 13 players have posted an OPS+ of 100 or better in their final season (while qualifying for the batting title). Clark is one, Puckett is another. A third is Vlad Guerrero who may not be done. Can you name the other ten? (Hint, you have definitely heard of all ten, although Steve Cox almost makes the list).

16. BochysFingers posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:29 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

So that leaves Steve Evans, who even as a diehard baseball fan I can honestly say I've never heard of, with the second best season of the legitimate qualifiers. And that was nearly 100 years ago.

17. cercle posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:33 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'd swear he had the nickname "the Natural" but b-r says no. In fact it says nobody ever has

Although a quick search didn't show any results, I am positive that there was a Will Clark poster with the caption "The Natural". I don't know if this was a widely used nickname or not, but I remember the poster distinctly.

18. BochysFingers posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:35 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In the divisional era, only 13 players have posted an OPS+ of 100 or better in their final season (while qualifying for the batting title). Clark is one, Puckett is another. A third is Vlad Guerrero who may not be done. Can you name the other ten? (Hint, you have definitely heard of all ten, although Steve Cox almost makes the list).

It seems as if position hitters are more likely than pitchers to hang around as a scrub, thereby limiting the number of possibilities for this achievement. Or their final season is cut short. My first ten lookups on bbref all read 'fail'.

I hadn't realized how far Magglio Ordonez's dropoff was. Damn!

19. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:46 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

An injury cut short one of the ten.

An odd circumstance cut short the career of another.

One went to Japan.

The rest just retired.

Two of them retired in the 70s. Two retired in the 90s. The rest retired in the last decade.

20. BochysFingers posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:49 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Would Troy Neel be the Japan-bound player? I'm not sure he quite qualified for the batting title in '94.

21. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Will Clark not only hit as a rookie, he had charisma, confidence, and seemed to be having a great deal of fun. Quite a contrast from the Jim Davenport-led Giants the year before.

This.

My personal opinion, based on nothing but my own observations, is that Clark's lack of fame stems from his unfortunate speaking voice. I heard him talk on camera only twice, but that was enough. I knew then that "sportscaster" was not in his future, nor were "lots of interviews." It's not fair, of course. Your speaking voice, about which you can do approximately nothing, shouldn't interfere with your fame as a baseball player. But in Clarks' case, he just drew the wrong genetic straw. - Brock Hanke

Also, this.

Clark's voice was kind of high and squeaky, especially when he got excited.
I remember after the Giants made the playoffs the first time with him, seeing a very young Clark in the locker room screeching about how he'd "WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THIS, BABY!!!"
He just sounded awful.

22. Sweatpants posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:54 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In the divisional era, only 13 players have posted an OPS+ of 100 or better in their final season (while qualifying for the batting title). Clark is one, Puckett is another. A third is Vlad Guerrero who may not be done. Can you name the other ten?

The only one I can think of is Jermaine Dye.

23. Cowboy Popup posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:56 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In the divisional era, only 13 players have posted an OPS+ of 100 or better in their final season (while qualifying for the batting title). Clark is one, Puckett is another. A third is Vlad Guerrero who may not be done. Can you name the other ten?

The batting title makes it especially tough to guess. I've only guessed one guy who qualified and he just missed the OPS+ mark (Mattingly).

I'm done looking these up. I'm going to guess 10 more without checking. Paul O'Neil, Wade Boggs, Luis Gonzalez, Roberto Clemente, Thurman Munson (I figured the two hitters famous for dying in the middle of their career seemed like a decent bet), Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, Ray Lankford, Jeff Bagwell, and David Nilson (not sure if that's how you spell it, the Australian catcher).

24. Sweatpants posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:58 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh, Albert Belle in 2000.

25. Floyd Thursby posted on July 28, 2012 at 11:59 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm pretty sure this is the greatest article I've ever read. Pure genius. Tears. I have tears. I wonder if there's a PayPal account we can send tips to. You know, a gratuity?

Who's with me?

26. Shooty is in the Trust Tree

posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:00 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Clark's nicknames were The Natural and Will the Thrill. He had an unfortunate voice and made bizarre faces all the time, too. But that swing...

27. BochysFingers posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:01 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The end to Dye's career was a bit strange - he obviously could still hit, but upon reaching free agency after the 2009 season with the White Sox, I never heard any rumblings about him negotiating with anybody. Any insight here?

I'm guessing Belle is the 'strange circumstance', although I believe he was also injured.

28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:03 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Jermaine Dye, Albert Belle, Paul O'Neill are all answers. The rest are not.

One of the players is probably more famous for being a manager, although he was a very decent player that played over a decade.

Belle is the injury. The "strange circumstance" is really a poor way of putting it, but I don't want to give it away. Cowboy Popup was on the right track.

And for the record, Will Clark was probably my favorite NL player from 1988-1990 (him or Eric Davis). I still have my Starting Lineup figurine of him.

29. Cowboy Popup posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:04 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I got one!

Any insight here?

I remember that. He refused to take a NRI or minor league contract and refused to DH. Problem was he was grading out as such a terrible fielder that it cancelled out his hitting value and no one wanted to play him in the field. He didn't seem like he minded. I think the Mariners may have kicked the tires at one point but he was still adamant about playing the field.

30. BochysFingers posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:05 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I would've thought Roberto Clemente, but he didn't have enough appearances in 72 (He had 413). I wonder if you just gave him the extra 55 or so appearances necessary, making them all outs (keep in mind that teams only played 154 that year), if his OPS+ would have still been above 100.

31. BochysFingers posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:07 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The "strange circumstance" is really a poor way of putting it, but I don't want to give it away.

This is making me think this fellow's career ended in 1994.

32. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:09 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

and no one's mentioned Clark's first AB in MLB--quick--without looking-who has the most HRs among those who hit a HR in his first AB?

33. ShoeGrit posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:12 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The "strange circumstance" is really a poor way of putting it, but I don't want to give it away. Think of ways other than injury players have had their careers ended.

Lyman Bostock ?

34. Sweatpants posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:14 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

and no one's mentioned Clark's first AB in MLB--quick--without looking-who has the most HRs among those who hit a HR in his first AB?

Gary Gaetti?

35. Cowboy Popup posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:17 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh man, Shawn Green is absurdly close but is just short in PAs. I need to walk away from this before it keeps me up all night. I look forward to learning the answers in the morning.

36. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:17 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Bostock is right.

37. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:23 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

and no one's mentioned Clark's first AB in MLB--quick--without looking-who has the most HRs among those who hit a HR in his first AB?

Gary Gaetti?

correct, sir

38. TerpNats posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:25 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The Giants developed outfielders -- Bobby Bonds, George Foster, Garry Maddox, Gary Matthews -- and then sprinkled them around the rest of the league like Johnny Outfielderseed, giving them away as if there were a concerted effort to keep the Giants awful.

Did Spec Richardson have anything to do with some of those deals? We all remember how he traded away the fruit of Houston's farm system (e.g., Joe Morgan), but let's not forget he spent four years in San Francisco's front office, too.

39. Darkness and the howling fantods posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:29 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm pretty sure this is the greatest article I've ever read. Pure genius. Tears. I have tears. I wonder if there's a PayPal account we can send tips to. You know, a gratuity?

Who's with me?

Bisbee also blogs at McCovey Chronicles.

And yes, I definitely remember "the Natural" as a nickname. He really did have one of the most bad-ass stances of all time as well. It was one of those baseball swings that makes 11 year olds think about physics.

40. Tripon posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:40 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Grant Bisbee's is probably one of the most underrated writers on the net right now. I'd post more of his work, but as an admitted Dodgers fan, I find it hard to post a lot of stuff from a Giants' website. At least I don't go to McCovey Chronicles' often enough to see Grant's work on a regular basis.

41. Bhaakon posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:43 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Bisbee also blogs at McCovey Chronicles.

I hear that he also posts on BBTF under a super secret pseudonym, and that he's total self-promoter.

42. Esoteric throws a 'hard slider' posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:54 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I hear that he also posts on BBTF under a super secret pseudonym, and that he's total self-promoter.

Yes, but he probably doesn't misspell his last name, which is actually "Brisbee," and not "Bisbee."

43. Bhaakon posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:56 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Yes, but he probably doesn't misspell his last name, which is actually "Brisbee," and not "Bisbee."

A pseudonym so secret that it has fooled two posters already.

But I've said too much

44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:56 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm going to bed, but the answers to the trivia question were:

Wes Parker (went to Japan)
Al Kaline
Doug Rader
Lyman Bostock (killed)
Carney Lansford
Chili Davis
Paul O'Neill
Albert Belle
Kenny Lofton
Jermaine Dye

45. Esoteric throws a 'hard slider' posted on July 29, 2012 at 12:57 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

A pseudonym so secret that it has fooled two posters already.

But I've said too much

So it's you then?

EDIT: A brief search of the BBTF archives suggests that yes, it possibly is. If so, hey, great job with this article.

SECOND EDIT: Or wait, maybe it's "Floyd Thursby," who posted a curious "let's all hit the tipjar!" post and whose name sounds like a slight variation on "Grant Brisbee." Actually, that might be the one. Dangit, I hate these sorts of games.

46. ShoeGrit posted on July 29, 2012 at 01:00 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Thanks for the fun

47. Bhaakon posted on July 29, 2012 at 01:02 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

EDIT: A brief search of the BBTF archives suggests that yes, it probably is. Hey, great job with this article.

Nope. Man, that is one tricky pseudonym.

SECOND EDIT: Or wait, maybe it's "Floyd Thursby," who posted a curious "let's all hit the tipjar!" post and whose name sounds like a slight variation on "Grant Brisbee." Dangit, I hate these sorts of games.

But not tricky enough, apparently.

48. Esoteric throws a 'hard slider' posted on July 29, 2012 at 01:03 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Nope. Man, that is one tricky pseudonym.

Check my second edit. And a search of BBTF 100% confirms it. I'm so naive!

49. Darkness and the howling fantods posted on July 29, 2012 at 01:34 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Check my second edit. And a search of BBTF 100% confirms it. I'm so naive!

My only excuse is that I'm drunk. Grant, please return the money I donated via paypal. It was really intended for orphans in Darfur, but you caught me at a weak moment.

50. Boxkutter posted on July 29, 2012 at 02:20 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Clark's voice was kind of high and squeaky, especially when he got excited.
I remember after the Giants made the playoffs the first time with him, seeing a very young Clark in the locker room screeching about how he'd "WAITED A LONG TIME FOR THIS, BABY!!!"

Clark when excited. The above description hit the nail on the head. But I don't hear it much in his normal speaking voice.

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