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Sticking our neck way out, are we?
Is he the best old pitcher of old time? 235-110, 3062 IP, 147 ERA+, and 4 Cy Youngs after the age of 30.
if not for his military service, he had a legit shot at 400 wins.
. . Peak Peak Prime Player Period WAR ERA+ WAR WAR 7+ WAR 5+Lefty Grove 1930s 49.8 184 38.2 10 13Randy Johnson 2000s 47.2 187 35.8 7 11Sandy Koufax 1960s 42.2 157 31.5 4 5Hal Newhouser 1940s 40.9 160 29.7 3 5Warren Spahn 1950s 38.5 141 29.0 4 10Frank Viola 1980s 32.9 140 24.8 2 4CC Sabathia 2000s 31.7 142 23.9 1 3Clayton Kershaw 2010s 30.8 147 23.0 1 4Steve Carlton 1970s 40.5 163 22.4 2 7Mickey Lolich 1970s 30.6 114 22.0 2 3Jim Kaat 1970s 29.1 125 21.3 2 3Tom Glavine 1990s 30.8 147 21.0 1 3Ron Guidry 1970s 30.7 140 20.7 1 3Vida Blue 1970s 31.7 140 19.1 2 4Whitey Ford 1960s 25.7 149 17.6 0 3Tommy John 1970s 30.7 130 15.8 0 4
(and Johnson was among the most durable pitchers of his time--does anyone doubt he'd throw 300+ innings if he debuted 30 years earlier?)
Or blown his arm out and finished by 30 like Newhouser.
His service may very well have saved his arm.
Example: in 1924, Vance, age 33, had 262 strikeouts, which was 7.9 K/(9 IP). Second place in both categories was Grimes, with 135, or 3.9 K/(9 IP).
Did Cy Young run over your great-grandfather's cat or something? People can debate if Cy should be number one, but not having him in your top 10 is a little strange. By the way, luv your number one.
gehrig, why do you say Grove is "criminally underrated"? Maybe by the average fan, but you could say that about alot of old timers like #6 on your list. I doubt anyone here doesn't consider Grove an inner-circle all time great.
And (for instance) his 1900 should not be taken at par.
You could make the argument that Vance was the most dominant strikeout pitcher in history. In 1924 he was responsible for 7.7% of all K's in the NL. Between 1923-1928 he was 5.9% of all NL K's. Ryan and Koufax never dominated at anywhere near that rate, never even hit 4% so the extra teams doesn't quite close the gap.
Here's the 1924 NL K leaders:
1. Vance (BRO) 262
2. Grimes (BRO) 135
3. Luque (CIN) 86
4. Morrison (PIT) 85
5. Kaufmann (CHC) 79
6. Keen (CHC) 75
7. Aldridge (CHC) 74
8. Donohue (CIN) 72
Nehf (NYG) 72
Ring (PHI) 72
He was to SO what Ruth was to HR.
When somebody completely laps the competition like that, there's usually a reason--they're doing something completely different than everybody else. Babe Ruth, of course, had an upper-cut swing and hit for the fences when everybody "knew" that would only get you a bunch of flyouts. Did Vance have a ridiculous fastball? A cutter, slider, some kind of pitch that nobody else was throwing?
Cy Young, age 31-44
4380 ip, 295-194, 137 era+
Phil Nevin swung so hard on one pitch- and missed so badly- that he cockscrewed himself into the ground, toppled over and fell on his butt.
That said, his durability, work ethic and ability to throw strikes means that he'd likely be successful in any era.
#52: Nice to know Randy is still a bit of a tool.
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