I used to play the old Sports Illustrated All-Time-All-Star dice game, and the Dodger lineup I'd use, as of about 1972 when the game was published, tended to look like:

C Campanella
1B Hodges
2B Robinson
3B various (you could shuffle Gilliam, Wills, Jimmy Johnston, and others through 3B, with Billy Cox as the defensive option)
SS Reese
RF Wheat
CF Snider
LF Furillo/Herman

and a starting rotation of Koufax, Drysdale, Vance, Nap Rucker, and Jeff Pfeffer. The bullpen was relatively strong, with Ron Perranoski and Hugh Casey.

My, was that a long time ago. In retrospect, the Dodgers had virtually just left Brooklyn.

Truth be told, take away the pitchers and that's not all that great a team, especially considering there's 129 years to choose from. How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

CF (Willie Davis)

Over Snider?

EDIT: as your choice, as opposed to TFA's, I mean.

he felt like a Hall of Famer to me

That's what she said!

How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

The Braves, unless you were referring to those three positions specifically - they have some really weak choices in their all-time lineup.

C: McCann, Crandall, and Lopez are all roughly equal choices. Oops, forgot about Joe Torre.
1B: Fred Tenney or Joe Adcock
2B: Bobby Lowe or Marcus Giles
SS: Herman Long or Johnny Logan

It's a team that's had great third basemen, great center fielders, great pitchers, and Henry Aaron.

I remember the Braves as a weak all-time club because of the gaps in the lineup and also because they had so many RHB in their "lineup." Tenney, Long, and Eddie Mathews were the plausible left-handed-hitting regulars. Chipper can help now, but that's quite an smackdown for the 3B job; Chipper may have to go to LF again.

My all Brooklyn city-team minus pitchers:

C - Campanella
C - Santop
C - Al Lopez
C - Babe Phelps
1B - Hodges
1B - Camili
1B - Fournier
2B - Jackie
2B - Cuccinello
2B - Gilliam
3B - Red Smith
3B - Sammy Strang
3B - Joe Stripp
SS - Reese
SS - Home Run Johnson
SS - Dahlen
CF - Snider
CF - Reiser
CF - Mike Griffin
CF - Johnny Frederick
OF - Zack Wheat
OF - Jimmy Sheckard
OF - Babe Herman
OF - Dixie Walker
OF - Lefty O'Doul
OF - Carl Furillo

Truth be told, take away the pitchers and that's not all that great a team, especially considering there's 129 years to choose from. How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball? The Cardinals have offense to spare, but their starting pitching quickly peters out after about two names. Same could be said about the Yankees(they have slightly better pitching, but again, their third guy wouldn't make the Dodgers team)

How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

The Phillies are plenty weak at C (Daulton, Boone, Lieberthal, perhaps Ruiz) and 1B (Howard, Kruk, Luderus) and 2B (Utley, Tony Taylor, a few early Nap Lajoie seasons)

Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball? The Cardinals have offense to spare, but their starting pitching quickly peters out after about two names. Same could be said about the Yankees(they have slightly better pitching, but again, their third guy wouldn't make the Dodgers team)

Sounds like the main reason the Dodgers won the 1963 World Series so easily, doesn't it?

If you were looking for the best balance between position players and pitchers, though, you'd probably want the A's or the Giants. Which is kind of ironic in the A's case, since their overall franchise record is well below .500.

Agreed, but how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball?

The A's and Giants certainly.

The A's and Giants certainly.

I was thinking of the A's...didn't think of the Giants.

The Phillies are plenty weak at C (Daulton, Boone, Lieberthal, perhaps Ruiz) and 1B (Howard, Kruk, Luderus) and 2B (Utley, Tony Taylor, a few early Nap Lajoie seasons)

I believe Jack Clements, the left-handed throwing catcher from back in the day, gets a fair amount of love at the Hall of Merit. Andy Seminick was a pretty good player though closer to Lieberthal than to being a true great player.

Is it too soon to put Buster Posey on the Giants' all-time team? If not:

C-Buster Posey
1B-Willie McCovey
2B-Frankie Frisch (maybe Jeff Kent? Rogers Hornsby or Joe Morgan would be no fair)
SS-Alvin Dark (maybe Travis Jackson? Rich Aurilia?)
3B-Matt Williams
RF-Mel Ott
CF-Willie Mays
LF-Barry Bonds
SP-Christy Mathewson
SP-Juan Marichal
SP-Carl Hubbell
SP-Gaylord Perry
RP-Hoyt Wilhelm

The Giants franchise may very well beat out the Yankees in terms of who could put together the best 25 man roster. Shortstop is a bit of an issue, but otherwise the positions all seem to fall into place nicely. As crazy good as the Yankees outfield would be, Bonds/Mays/Ott can't lose much ground to anybody.

how many of the all time teams are strong on both sides of the ball?

They haven't added a lot of long-term stars lately, but the Indians are pretty well-rounded. Speaker and Lajoie in the heart of the lineup, and Boudreau at SS with Vizquel to caddy as if he needs it. Averill, Doby, Rosen, Jim Thome or Hal Trosky at 1B, or at DH unless you want prime Travis Hafner. Kenny Lofton to lead off. Their best-hitting long-time catcher might still be Steve O'Neill, so I suppose it isn't all thunder and lightning. Meanwhile for a pitching staff you've got Feller, Lemon, Wynn, Joss, Coveleski, Harder. Mike Garcia, Sam McDowell, maybe CC unless he ends up playing a lot more years for the Yankees some day. That's a deep bunch compared to lots of other franchises.

The Cardinals would be
1b Pujols
2b Hornsby
ss Ozzie
3b Boyer
LF Brock(I acknowledge his war isn't the greatest, but you have to put him in as a Cardinal here)
CF Flood
RF Musial(you can put him in several spots of course)

SP Gibson
SP Dean
Sp Carpenter(sad but he is in the top ten in war for the cardinal pitchers)
SP Jesse Haines
SP Harry Brechen(?)or Mort Cooper(Wainwright is very close to making this list)

RP Hrabosky(sad, but best choice available....Worrell, Hrabosky, Sutter, Isringhausen, are all interchangeable)

And not too many franchises have two (or more) Hall of Famers at the same position. The Braves are one example with Chipper and Eddie Mathews at third. The Yankees at catcher, the Red Sox and Cardinals in left.

I think you still have to put Bresnahan ahead, and even if not Buck Ewing belongs even admitting that it was neither the same game nor the same position way back then. My stab:

C - Ewing
1B - McCovey
2B - Frisch
3B - George Davis
SS - Bancroft
LF - Barry
CF - Willie
RF - Eddie

SP - Mathewson
SP - Hubbell
SP - Keefe
SP - Marichal
SP - Lincecum

RP - Nen (I'd give Wilhelm to the White Sox or Orioles)

I think you still have to put Bresnahan ahead

Chief Meyers was an excellent hitting catcher too, and handled the staffs of several pennant winners; his defensive reputation was pretty good as I recall, though he didn't play as long as Bresnahan or Ewing. So maybe he can be a backup till Posey is ready to call up :)

And the Phillies' top three starters (Alexander, Roberts, Carlton) can go up against any team's, even the Red Sox (Young, Clemens, Pedro) or Braves (Nichols, Spahn, Maddux)...

An interesting situation is how non-terrible the Toronto Blue Jays are:

C - Ernie Whitt
1B - Delgado or Olerud
2B - Alomar (he fits as much with the Jays as anybody)
3B - Kelly Gruber (ugg)
SS - Tony Fernandez
LF - Joey Bats
CF - Lloyd Moseby
RF - Jesse Barfield
DH - George Bell or Delgado if Olerud at first

SP - Halladay
SP - Stieb
SP - Key
SP - Hentgen
SP - Clancy

RP - Henke

That's not the best team in the world, but it would smack around many of the expansion franchises who had a head start on them like the Mets, Rangers and Padres.

And not too many franchises have two (or more) Hall of Famers at the same position. The Braves are one example with Chipper and Eddie Mathews at third. The Yankees at catcher, the Red Sox and Cardinals in left.

The Cubs at second base.

The D'Backs, Marlins, Rays and Padres are the weakest, with the Rays being probably the weakest. Canseco may make that 25 man roster. The Marlins are near impossible to put together because outside of Jeff Conine, nobody sticks around for very long.

I actually enjoy putting city teams together more, as then you can put negro league players in as well. In the city setup, it's amazing how wonderful a team Pittsburgh has even without Bonds. Philadelphia is laoded too, but then the Yankees get their pitching staff massively upgraded thanks to the Giants and Mets.

The Cubs at second base.

They also have multiple Hall of Famers at shortstop and first base as well. Maybe if Aramis starts netting some support they can have a whole infield. :)

They also have multiple Hall of Famers at shortstop and first base as well.

I forgot about Tinker, Evers and Chance. So they have three Hall of Fame second basemen.

The A's and Giants certainly.

As I pointed out above, the A's also have an overall sub-.500 franchise record, which makes me wonder if they'd also have the all-time worst team made up of players who stuck around for 500 games. Their main competition in that category would likely be the Phillies and the Browns / Orioles, but consider this: Between 1901 and 1969, when division play began, the A's finished last 24 times and the Phillies 22, and 11 times it was in the same year.

The Cubs are pretty strong on both sides:

C - Hartnett
1B - Anson
2B - Sandberg
SS - Banks
3B - Santo
Lf - Williams
CF - Wilson
RF - Sosa

SP - Brown
SP - Alexander
SP - Maddux
SP - Jenkins
SP - Reuschel
RP - Sutter, Smith

On the bench you have Herman, Hack, Cuyler, Kling, Dawson

So they have three Hall of Fame second basemen.

4 if you count Hornsby.

[14]

SS-Alvin Dark (maybe Travis Jackson? Rich Aurilia?)

No love for George Davis?

I've been going under the assumption that every player gets one team and one team only. So Hornsby to the Cardinals, Maddux to the Braves, Alexander to the Phillies and Cuyler probably to the Pirates if they need him.

Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers. I went with Speaker in Boston and Bunning in Detroit (who need him more than the Phillies).

Red Sox (just counting guys who put up more value in Boston than any other place, so we lose Young, Grove, Foxx and Speaker)
C - Fisk
1B - Yaz (had to do something about the LF logjam)
2B - Doerr
SS - Nomar (Cronin spent more time in Boston, but he was better in Washington)
3B - Boggs
LF - Rice
CF - Dom Dimaggio
RF - Evans
DH - Williams

SP - Clemens
SP - Pedro
SP - Tiant
SP - Wood
SP - Wakefield

RP - Bob Stanley

By the way while Posey probably is too early for the New York team, I think he probably already has pushed past Terry Steinbach for a spot on an otherwise fully loaded Bay Area team:

C - Posey
1B - McCovey/Clark/McGwire/Giambi (that's a bunch of talent for just the late 60s on)
2B - Kent
3B - Bando or Matt Williams
SS - Tejada or maybe Campaneris
OF - Which one of Rickey, Willie, Barry or Reggie do you send to the bench?

SP - Marichal, Perry, Lincecum, Hudson, Cain, Blue
RP - Eckersley and Rollie

Brandon Moss comes up just short...

I've been going under the assumption that every player gets one team and one team only. So Hornsby to the Cardinals, Maddux to the Braves, Alexander to the Phillies and Cuyler probably to the Pirates if they need him.

I go by the assumption that the player is rated only by the years he had on the team, so you can get Bruce Sutter or Lee Smith with both the Cubs and Cardinals. Of course when making lists like this, I'm looking for both quantity and quality. War is a great start, WAA is probably better.

Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers.

I'd say Eddie Collins is the toughest choice in that regard.

Who gets Frank Robinson?

Doing it that way Tris Speaker and Jim Bunning are two of the harder choices among HOFers.

I think the hardest calls are guys who spent longer with one team, but were better with another (such as Piazza).

How many other of the original 16 teams would have such weak choices at 1B (Hodges), 3B (Cey) and CF (Willie Davis)?

I'd say you're seriously under-rating Cey and probably Davis. Career 121 OPS+ in over 8000 PA. Among players with at least 1200 games at 3B, he's 12th in OPS+.* He wasn't a great defender so he falls to 18th in WAR ... and, OK, most of the guys ahead of him are from original 16 teams so he is one of the worst you'd find on those teams (there are repeats so he wouldn't be the worst and you decide who gets Rolen and Bell). Also while Cey beats him on Dodger playing time, Beltre deserves some consideration for the spot.

As to Davis, you can all get into a tizzy about dWAR again if you want but, among players with 1200+ games in CF, Davis is 13th with 57 WAR. If you want to slam the Dodgers, it's not the weakness in CF (where of course they have the even better Snider), it's the weakness in the corner OF spots where the best is Wheat (respectable 57 WAR but that's gonna pale in comparison to the elite corner OFs) and then you're down to guys like Furillo, Guerrero or Dixie Walker. Willie Davis as your 2nd best CF is pretty impressive really ... just not as impressive as the Yanks

As to Hodges, he's not awe-inspiring but historically there haven't been many great players who spent a career at 1B. Plenty of great players who spent part of a career at 1B but usually as they were fading at the end; or players who were so limited defensively from the very start who ended up not having long careers (e.g. Boog Powell). Through 1960, there were only 38 players with at least 1200 games at 1B (post-1900). Hodges stood 8th in WAR at that time although behind such greats as Ed Konetchy and Joe Judge. There are now 91 such players and Hodges is 26th in WAR -- OK, one of those is Banks so call it 25th. We just had the era of the great 1B ... and James Loney wasn't one of them. :-)

*If you make playing time equivalent, you can argue Da Evans over Cey but you can also argue Cey over Madlock.

I think Robinson is clearly the Reds and Piazza is clearly the Dodgers and Collins is an Athletic. I think if you're better with one team and there for any length of time, that's where you go. The problem with Speaker and Bunning is that it's razor thin as to which they were better at. Seems like the younger Speaker would be the more Speaker-ish type of player you want. Excellent hitter/transformative defender. The Tigers just need Bunning more than the Phillies do.

Also sometimes the rest of the roster matters. The New York team doesn't need Piazza but the LA team desperately does. On the other hand, the Dodgers don't really need him and the Mets obviously do.

Also for the Dodgers they have Camili as a choice at first who was a heck of a player with a career shortened by being stuck in the minors forever (he played roughly six full years in the PCL before sticking in the majors). Sort of a poor-man's Edgar Martinez. That's a hell of a seven year stretch from 1936-1942.

The Reds team, much like the current one, might be better off just going with relievers the whole time, but the lineup is very strong even without exploiting the odd situation of the early professional club.

C - Bench
1B - Votto
2B - Morgan
3B - Perez or Groh
SS - Larkin
LF - Rose
CF - Roush
RF - Robinson

And a very strong bench of

C - Lombardi
IF - McPhee
IF - Groh
OF - Pinson
OF - Foster

The starting pitching is really questionable though. Johnny Cueto is legitimately in the rotation mix. Eppa Rixey is likely their ace.

The Orioles have a pretty decent team, despite a couple holes and a rotation falls off more quickly than I would have thought.

C: Matt Wieters
1B: Eddie Murray
2B: Bobby Grich
SS: Cal Ripken Jr
3B: Brooks Robinson
LF: Ken Singleton
CF: Brady Anderson
RF: Frank Robinson
DH: Boog Powell

SP: Jim Palmer
SP: Mike Mussina
SP: Mike Cuellar
SP: Dave McNally
SP: Milt Pappas
RP: Stu Miller

Bench:
C: Rick Dempsey
2B: Brian Roberts
2B: Davey Johnson
SS: Marc Belanger
3B: Melvin Mora
LF: BJ Surhoff
CF: Adam Jones
RF: Nick Markakis

(Alomar, Aparicio, Palmeiro and Tejada are left out as the property of other teams)

Another player who's very hard to place is Mize. He came up with the Cards and had his best years there, plus war time credit, but they also have Pujols and even Musial if they want.

White Sox, off the top of my head:

C: Carlton Fisk (based on his White Sox years... Red Sox ranking would be based on his Red Sox years)
1B: Dick Allen (or Paul Konerko)
2B: Eddie Collins (or Nellie Fox)
3B: Robin Ventura
SS: Luke Appling
LF: Joe Jackson (or Minnie Minoso)
CF: Chet Lemon? (definitely their weakest position)
RF: Magglio Ordonez (or maybe Harold Baines)
DH: Frank Thomas

SP: Ed Walsh
SP: Ted Lyons
SP: Red Faber
SP: Billy Pierce
SP: Either Wilbur Wood or Mark Buehrle

RP: Hoyt Wilhelm

Not too bad, though they are a bit weak in the OF.

2B: Bobby Grich

(Alomar, Aparicio, Palmeiro and Tejada are left out as the property of other teams)

Grich had 1222 G and 32 WAR with Cal vs
786 G and 26 WAR with Bal.

Grich had 1222 G and 32 WAR with Cal vs
786 G and 26 WAR with Bal.

Well, I'll be.

I don't have a problem with one guy appearing on two teams' all-time teams. I'd say it probably works best if you just set a PA floor (say 5000 PA or maybe minimum top 3 in PA at that position for that team). These are mostly peak teams anyway so if a guy had two peaks, why not? FRob had 6400 PA and 60 WAR with Cincy (yowza!) and 3500 PA with 30 WAR for Baltimore (he wasn't really there that long and missed a fair amount of time). I don't know if that 3500/30 is good enough to make Baltimore's all-time team but I don't see any reason to rule him ineligible. This is only going to matter for a few historical players so I don't see it being very confusing.

Presumably it will get a lot harder in the FA era. A guy like Rolen is just screwed in this exercise -- 28 WAR with Philly, 25 with the Cards, 13 elsewhere. Obviously he's not gonna displace Schmidt or Boyer although you can make a good argument he's a better player than Boyer. Manny, ignoring defense because accounting for defense takes all the fun out of Manny, had 37 oWAR for Boston and 32 for Cleveland.

EDIT: And somebody is seriously under-rating Chet Lemon. Way better than Ordonez and even better than Baines. The White Sox need to move one of Jackson/Minoso to RF.

And somebody is seriously under-rating Chet Lemon. Way better than Ordonez and even better than Baines.

After looking at B-R, I was a bit harsh regarding Lemon. That being said, I don't see him as being much better than Ordonez. They seem about equal to me. As for Baines, I'll take Ordonez or Lemon. Even though I'm a Sox fan, I've never been very high on Baines. He was always good, but never much more than that.

EDIT: I guess Lemon does beat Ordonez on a WAR/PA basis. So he might be a bit ahead, but I just don't see him as "way better".

At one point, I remember calculating the standard deviations of winning pct for the original 16, and the A's had by far the highest. And while most of the teams (except the Yankees, who were just always good (and even 64-75 had almost no truly bad years) bounced around a bit, the A's seemed unique in being almost exclusively excellent (1910-14; 1929-32; 1971-75; 1988-90(or 92, 91 was a weird year); 2000-03) or terrible (almost every year not mentioned between 1915 and 1998). The 2007-11 A's were an aberration for the team, a just pretty mediocre string of years. Its how you get a set of all time greats with an all-around record under 500. Also, I have to imagine the A's have the largest collection of "last year in great career" players. If you don't set a minimum PA floor, we get Cobb, Collins, Thomas, and about 20 more...

And way off topic, but Frank in 06, from June on, is one of my favorite player years ever. Coliseum is a player's park? No, you just have to hit them further. Seattle is pulling in the fences; perhaps, getting better hitters instead? The bash brothers never needed the fences brought in either. Just saying.

you decide who gets Rolen

I suspect the Phillies might be willing to let Rolen go to St. Louis.