Mike Piazza

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do? Other than his "fielding" at 1st base?

Mike Piazza


What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do? Other than his "fielding" at 1st base?

His silence about Joe Posnanski and Joe Paterno was despicable.

Bagwell's getting in. Just give it time. He doesn't have an overwhelming case based on traditional stats.

Jeeze, we got to get off this idea that everyone who's hall worthy has to debut with 95% of the vote. That's not have it has ever been.

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

Oh, I remember. That has nothing to do with his playing career though. :-)

This is the second time I've seen declining Hall attendance mentioned as if the Hall is dying because of the PED controversy. Attendance is down because this is the worst economy since the Great Depression.

Attendance is down because this is the worst economy since the Great Depression.

Concur. Plus really high gas prices, which has to clobber a place that you basically have to drive 3 hours+ to get to from the nearest major airport.

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

Duh.

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

Pictures of his bacne?

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

Call they elect Admiral Akbar as a replacement for Mike?

Jeff Bagwell is going to bring the masses to Otsego Lake? As I've written, it would be great PR if Bagwell and Biggio went in the same year, that would probably bring a lot of Astros fans to Cooperstown. But Rob is being a bit more, er, "impulsive" than usual when he trots out this headline accompanied by some of his Grade-B hyperbole.

I'm not even sure there are direct flights from Houston to Syracuse or Albany, so I'm wondering how all these Astros fans are going to suddenly emerge on the shores of Otsego Lake.

I'm not even sure there are direct flights from Houston to Syracuse or Albany, so I'm wondering how all these Astros fans are going to suddenly emerge on the shores of Otsego Lake.

Fly to NY and drive 4 hours is about the shortest route.

You apparently were not reading Primer ten years ago. He posted some really horrible stuff here.

What about Yun Taragoashi? Do we give him any credit for his Japanese stats?

Are there hourly flights from Kansas City or Dallas or San Diego or St. Louis? Because we've seen pretty big bounces for various induction weekend attendances, built on influxes of visitors from those nearby suburbs of Cooperstown.

Is the attendance down equally for the induction ceremony vs the rest of the year?

Inducting some more of the most popular guys on the ballot will help induction day. But probably not as much for the rest of the year. I know the Ryan/Brett/Yount class brought tons of people to Cooperstown.

I don't think Jeff Bagwell going on the stage with Larkin and Ron Santo's family is going to have the maximum effect, even if he is the best player eligible.

I'll tell you the two players that I think would be best for Cooperstown attendance, and it's a combination that would probably piss off 95% of BTF for one reason or another:

Jack Morris, Mark McGwire

#16 Now that I think about it, won't Santo be a pretty decent draw? Don't know how a popular, recently deceased inductee figures into things but I'd think there are all kinds of Cubs fans who'd want to be there.

As you suggest, it's moderately likely that Bagwell would add relatively little -- and I suspect Walt's right in that Bagwell and Biggio going in together could be a nice package deal.

Induction weekend is hugely important to the Hall's bottom line, and the rest of the year always pales in comparison. Except for the Ripken/Gwynn year, the attendances for those weekends have also been on the decline.

Induction weekend is hugely important to the Hall's bottom line, and the rest of the year always pales in comparison. Except for the Ripken/Gwynn year, the attendances for those weekends have also been on the decline.

Seems to me like the Hall has to do some better marketing. More special events, etc.

Why not have weekends where living Hall-of-Famers, or other notable player come to be recognized, with presentations on their careers, etc.? If you want to get fancy, set up tour packages so that a limited number of fans who pay a premium get to meet the players, have a cocktail hour or lunch with them, hear special talks, etc.

Hell, even have Fantasy camps in the summer. Think a little outside the box.

#16 Now that I think about it, won't Santo be a pretty decent draw?

I doubt it. While he was very popular, people generally show up to hear the inductees speak, rather than to hear the family or descendants of the inductees speak.

Y'know, Neyer does have a sense of humor. If he titles an article something like "football is easier than baseball" or "Cooperstown must induct Jeff Bagwell to survive", he probably doesn't mean it literally.

I do think Rob simplifies a bit. Players will be elected to the HOF. It's just that guys like Clemens, Bonds and A-Rod won't. Or then again, they might be. Or Clemens/Bonds might not, but A-Rod might. Honestly, who the hell knows. I do feel like eventually, everyone who is a no-brainer HOF based on stats is going to go in. That's the extent of what I'm willing to bet.

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

The exact same thing Bagwell did.

A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.

I thought it was interesting that Neyer gave some credit to the opposing argument, and stated that if you do believe PED are a disqualifier (which, to be clear, he doesn't believe), it would then make sense to vote against a player whom you believe used them, even without a failed test or other "solid evidence". I think I agree with him on that, but I'm not sure.

"intellectually indefensible"

The problem with internet censoring laws is that they are focused on pirated or illegal content and not the real scourge of the net, bland adverbs that add no meaning. I would gladly support mandatory adverb filtering at the ISP level.

But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue.

Yeah, but we're also seeing Bagwell gaining 15-20% in his vote, based on Repoz's totals, which is exactly what happens to that sort of guy in his 2nd year before he gets elected in his 3rd or 4th year (e.g., Larkin). I could be wrong, but I still expect the Killer B's to be inducted together next year.

Frankly, I hope the BBWAA refuses to induct anyone for a couple of years. It would force the HoF to either take the vote out of their hands or add enough voters (from players, execs, TV, radio) to get someone elected. I think people like Jon Miller, Bob Costas, John Kruk and Tim McCarver (whether we like them or not) should be allowed to vote.

#17--I'm sure Walt's right, Ron, at least some of the time....but I was the guy who linked the Killer B's in this thread...heck, Walt isn't even in this thread... (yet)!

As others have stated, I suspect the economy/fuel prices/etc. have a lot more to do with declining attendance than anything else.

I've never been there. I can't see making a special trip just to go there. I don't take many vacations, so when I do, they need to be trips someplace where I'm visiting family or an area where there's lots of new stuff to do. If I do end up visiting, it'll be because I'm in NY for some other reason and I've got the free time and rental car to drive that drive. My daughter and her family used to live in Jersey City, but now that they've moved to Maryland I don't even have that excuse.

Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?

EDIT: and this may say a lot about the way the HOF is marketed (or not marketed, rather). My son and daughters are both big baseball fans, but neither has any interest in visiting the HOF.

Cooperstown's attendance slide predates the larger economic one.

Re: #23--
The ballots that comprise Repoz's totals disproportionately represent those writers who write and vote sabermetrically, or are at least willing to open up their reasoning processes. If past years are any guide, the dunderhead districts and the old folks' homes are yet to be heard from. Which means that subtler candidates like Raines, Trammell and Bagwell can be expected to see their final numbers drop, as they have before.

I think that Bagwell's rise will be fairly nominal this time. But also, I assume that there's a more than decent chance at a Bags 'n Bigs double-ring ceremony the following year. That's not a good thing. Manufacturing, and then responding to, one's own corny stories has been one of the classic problems with the writers' voting history. As adorable as it would be, waiting for juusssst the right moment to pat Jeff Bagwell on the head would not be praiseworthy. It would be another example of the "it's all about us voters" mentality.

Is the attendance down equally for the induction ceremony vs the rest of the year?

Inducting some more of the most popular guys on the ballot will help induction day. But probably not as much for the rest of the year. I know the Ryan/Brett/Yount class brought tons of people to Cooperstown.

I don't think Jeff Bagwell going on the stage with Larkin and Ron Santo's family is going to have the maximum effect, even if he is the best player eligible.

I'll tell you the two players that I think would be best for Cooperstown attendance, and it's a combination that would probably piss off 95% of BTF for one reason or another:

Jack Morris, Mark McGwire

Just thinking anecdotally I think one of the problems has been the lack of inner circle inductees and the lack of identifiable teams for the inductees. The last "one team player" to go in was Rice and the other inductees (Henderson, Alomar, Blyleven, Dawson) are a bit more nomadic so they don't inspire the level of devotion that Rice or Ripken or Gwynn generated. 2009 also benefitted from the presence of a true inner circle guy in Henderson.

I don't have any numbers to support this but I would bet that one of those two criteria probably exists for the big attendance years. For that reason I think Bagwell (one team) would probably drive attendance more than we might expect. I don't think McGwire really fits either category (is he truly beloved in St. Louis?) and Morris would because I think he is the rare player who has two teams (Detroit and Minnesota) that genuinely love him.

Just off the top of my head; Raines (Montreal though that may not be enough), Larkin (Cincinatti), Bonds/Clemens (inner circle) may well drive big crowds. Presumably geography helps too with the northeast teams driving a lot of attendees.

All this is off the cuff type feelings though, I could be spectacularly wrong.

Given this statement by Neyer

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.

I am done clicking through on his articles. Let someone else add to his page count.

Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?

I went to college about an hour away. A couple of obsessive die hard baseball fans and I would drive over a couple times a year and spend half a day walking through the museum and looking at the different artifacts. Almost without fail, we would run out of time before we would run out of things we wanted to see.

I tend to like museums and can spend quite a while going through anything from fine art to space flight to natural history. So if those kind of things aren't a way you enjoy spending time, my views may be worthless. But I've found every one of my trips to Cooperstown to be worthwhile and I'm looking forward to going back.

Maybe I'm underestimating the fun or enjoyment of the visit. I dunno. I just have this impression that I'll walk around for an hour or so, and sure, enjoy myself during that time, but then end up saying...OK, now what?

I'd say half a day. I went with my Dad for Rizzuto's induction. We stayed one night, spent 3-4 hours in the museum and didn't feel we missed anything.

The plaque room itself is quite boring.

It's a one day experience that takes a 3 day journey.

The plaque room itself is quite boring.

Seconded.

The museum part is fantastic though and I'm not a museum guy at all. The half day estimate is pretty good though. I've done it on my own a few times and my system is to drive out (5-6 hour ride) the night before, get going in the morning with a big breakfast, tour the place then head home stopping for dinner along the way. I like to drive and enjoy the alone time so it works well for me. I can see the half day estimate being a bit light if you are with people, particularly young people who you are trying to educate on the history of the game.

I also went to the induction weekend in 2009 and have to say it was a lot of fun. One of my favorite players as a kid was being inducted and it really was a lot of fun. The ceremony is great and Cooperstown does a wonderful job. It astounds me that the restaurants are able to function. They are busy but don't seem as overwhelmed as I would have expected.

It's a one day experience that takes a 3 day journey.

Where are you coming from, Europe?

But yes, you will spend as much/more time in the car as the museum. It is a lovely area. Easy to combine the HoF with outdoor sports, or some winery tours, or cultural stuff and make a nice 3-day soujourn.

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do.

If my life depended on it, I would bet that he used (at least once). I still think he should be in the HOF. There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.

@29/Srul:

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.

What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids. The drugs were illegal and already highly stigmatized (see Lyle Alzado/Ben Johnson/1990 ASCA.) A reasonable person in the late 1990's or early 2000's would have believed that steroid use would lead to ostracization.

Bagwell himself didn't create the current climate of suspicion. History is being kind to Frank Thomas, though. The reason is that he spoke out against steroid use in the sport way before Ken Caminiti blew the lid off this thing.

Bagwell deserves a presumption of innocence, and had I vote, I would vote for Bagwell. However, that doesn't mean that anybody should refrain from making a reasonable inference about Bagwell's choices during the Steroid Era.

@35/Jacob:

If my life depended on it, I would bet that he used (at least once). I still think he should be in the HOF. There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.

Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.

---

Increasingly, I think the only plausible solution to the Steroid Era will be a sort of Truth Commission/sequel to the Mitchell Report. I don't much like the idea of that, though.

What is so offensive about this statement?

Making accusations based on zero proof is offensive to me. YMMV.

Increasingly, I think the only plausible solution to the Steroid Era will be a sort of Truth Commission/sequel to the Mitchell Report.

Or everybody could just grow up, and get over it.

If you were to read most of the exhibit labels, you could spend three days at the Hall of Fame--easily. You could also spend one of the days doing research, looking at the newspaper and photo files that are in the library.

I have spoken to many, many people who have taken more than one day at the Museum.

Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.

After looking over the post-90 inductees, I'll list ten:


1.Kirby Puckett
2.Roberto Alomar
3.Carlton Fisk
4.Paul Molitor
5.Nolan Ryan
6.Gaylord Perry
7.Dennis Eckersley
8.George Brett
9.Reggie Jackson
10.Eddie Murray

The plaque room itself is quite boring.

You'd think they could do something about this. Since a lot of people go to the HOF to see, you know, the HOFers.

Do you think Jeff Bagwell ever used steroids? I do. He was a power hitter and played during a time when most power hitters used steroids. Maybe that's not completely fair, and I hope I'm wrong. But the guys from that era sort of brought the suspicion upon themselves.

What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids.

Yes, and it'd be fine for Ron Paul to speculate on TV that you're a junkie, because hey, he's a libertarian and he wouldn't hold it against you. And besides, what were you doing wearing that long sleeved shirt in July?

A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.

So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here?

Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here?

Yes, because that worked so well for Roger Clemens.

From a year ago...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/columns/story?columnist=crasnick_jerry&id=5963276

A year ago, it seemed to me that Bagwell simply wasn't the type of guy the BBWAA elects on the first ballot, and that people who thought PED affected his vote total were being paranoid. But this year, we are in fact seeing writers explicitly state that they aren't voting for Bagwell due to the PED issue. I think what may have happened is that, through a game of telephone, "These dummies might be voting against Jeff Bagwell because they imagine he did steroids!" became "Jeff Bagwell is 'associated' with steroids!" I really hope that's not what went down, but it very well might be.

So, where's Bags in all this?

Surely he's aware of the allegations. Wouldn't an innocent man be furiously asserting his innocence here

Will(ie) Bloom(quist) Again?

What is so offensive about this statement? Neyer isn't arguing for Bagwell's exclusion from the Hall. He's drawing an inference that Jeff Bagwell (a big, pumped up slugger) probably used steroids during a time when most big, pumped up sluggers used steroids

Yes. If you pick a name from that era out of a hat, what are the chances he did steroids? 40%? 50%? 60%? More? That's all Neyer's doing here. Surely people don't think the chances Bagwell used steroids are zero?

It's basically like asking what the chances that Player X played in the National League are.

There's already a handful of steroids users in the HOF anyway.

Not trolling/nagging, but who do you think? Boswell claims there's at least one, and there was an erroneous report some years ago that it was Eck.

There's at least one. I named him in post 80 of this thread.

What terrible thing did Mike Piazza do?

Duh.

I had forgotten about that. Yeesh.

Yes. If you pick a name from that era out of a hat, what are the chances he did steroids? 40%? 50%? 60%? More?

Yeah, it might even be as high as the percentage of lawyers who pad their clients' bills while spending all day commenting on the internet.

Neyer's comment that he thinks Bagwell did steroids is the natural progression of where the crazies have taken us.

All we've heard for the past decade from the crazies was:

* Oh my god, steroids are so bad.
* Oh my god, look at all of the players who are on steroids.
* Oh my god, steroids lead to big numbers and records.
* Oh my god, steroids users are cheaters and frauds.
* Oh my god, this player used steroids; just look at him.
* Oh my god, this player used steroids also; just look at all the home runs he hit.

So now people are coming along and saying, "You're right, pretty much everyone in this era was on steroids. Bagwell was probably on steroids also."

And now the crazies are upset.

And why are they upset? Because if everyone can be assumed to have been on steroids, it was simply the environment in which the game was played, and there's no reason to keep any of them out of the Hall of Fame. The playing field was level, just as it was with amps.