I can't really fathom any reasonable person keeping Frank Thomas out of the Hall.

He should go in wearing an A's cap.

This Hey Bill! has a great picture of Johnny Bench appearing in the Mission: Impossible television series.

Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks.

Lynyrd Skynyrd sucks.

Is that Freedom Rock? Well turn it up!

Clearly, You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry would be a better base stealing song.

Aqualung over anything The Beatles have done

This man is dead to me.

With Adam Dunn having a nice comeback season (even with a .205 average), I'm wondering if there's anyone that's TRULY similar to him statistically in baseball history. There are certainly plenty of his TYPE, but his stats seem so extreme. Very high HR's, BB, and K's, very low batting average, very little defensive value. His "through current age comp" list on BB-ref (Reggie Jackson, Killebrew, Colavito, Canseco, Thome are the top 5) doesn't seem very satisfying, as everyone has a significantly higher batting average than Dunn's .240 mark. Maybe there's another way to ask it.....is Dunn the most effective career .240 player ever? Thanks.

Asked by: markomachine


Answered: 9/10/2012

I'm still wondering why I get all these damned Adam Dunn questions.

this is great

Someone asked about Gehrig vs Ruth for the MVP in 1927. I'm surprised that James did not mention the fact that Ruth was not eligible for the award since he had already won it in 1923. The rules for the League Award (the MVP of the time) did not allow a previous winner to win it again.

I can't really fathom any reasonable person keeping Frank Thomas out of the Hall.

I couldn't fathom any reasonable voter keeping Rickey out, either, but there are still guys who didn't vote for him. Not everyone in the BBWAA is reasonable.

Well, I don't get Adam Dunn questions all the time.

WAR, 5000+ PA, BA<=250

Nettles 63
Da Evans 55
Wynn 53
Tenace 44
Cameron 43
Porter 38
Belanger 38
Sundberg 37
Donie Bush 37
McAuliffe 34
Blair 34

Dunn is 43rd on the list with a mere 14 WAR, surprisingly even less than Kingman. Heck, Carlos Pena smokes him with 23 WAR.

Fair enough, that includes silly stuff like defense and positional adjustments. By WAR batting he's 4th, 84 runs behind Wynn in just 800 PA. He's also 52 runs behind Tenace with 1600 MORE PA. He's 23 behind Evans but Evans has 3000 more PA so Dunn would have a chance to catch him. :-)

So we have to go with Tenace on rate hitting, Wynn on peak/career hitting and I'm sticking with Wynn overall because he was about half Dunn's size.

Of course those guys did other silly things to disqualify themselves like not strike every time Marty Brenneman sneezed. Dunn is the greatest hitter in history to hit less than 250 and strike out 2000 times. There's a reason for that.

Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.

Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.

He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.

He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.

Yeah, while it doesn't prove he was clean, it's reason to look at him differently. While most everyone else in his profession was mum on the subject, he was out front clamoring for baseball to take action. It's more than possible that it was a clever ruse, but even if it was, good for Frank.

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.

12 - Doubting Thomas seems a pure ORLY? internet black-helicopter stance.

(Yes, I saw what I did there.)

Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

The band is just fantastic,
that is really what I think.
Oh by the way, which one's Lynard?

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.

Maddux and Glavine have to be suspicious. Anybody who paid attention could read between the cut scenes back when that "chicks dig the longball" commercial came out.

I do like Jethro Tull but that's kind of silly. however not as silly as when Tull won the grammy for best metal band or metal performance or whatever it was over Metallica in the early 90s.

It was "hard rock/heavy metal", so they were eligible, I suppose.

However, ...And Justice for All was a great, classic album (unless you're a big fan of bass) and Mandolin Jester Huzzah! was not.

Of course, we're talking about a music award that has had the 1985 Chicago Bears Shufflin' Crew as a nominee.

Here's some comps for Dunn, trying to get reasonably near him in terms of face-value rate stats. Arranged alphabetically because why not :)



Ken Phelps is not only the closest in the three major rate stats, but was a beast in the minor leagues for too long, shortening his career (not that he would have been as good as Dunn as young as Dunn). Though I suppose Bill James, who publicized Phelps's plight widely, really would be tired of talking about players like that. It's interesting how many of the list are catchers – if you can catch some and hit some HRs, nobody's greatly concerned about your batting average.

He actively campaigned for testing, that helps remove some of the suspicion off of him.


Yeah, while it doesn't prove he was clean, it's reason to look at him differently. While most everyone else in his profession was mum on the subject, he was out front clamoring for baseball to take action. It's more than possible that it was a clever ruse, but even if it was, good for Frank.

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.

On the other hand, he also played football in the SEC in the 80's.

Frank Thomas is one of my favorite players ever, he should absolutely be voted into the HoF as soon as he is eligible. However, the idea that he should be above suspicion of PED use is just silly.

Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

But neither can hold a candle to Mr. Led Zeppelin.

However, ...And Justice for All was a great, classic album (unless you're a big fan of bass) and Mandolin Jester Huzzah! was not.

no doubt about it. I guess they didn't trust Newstead at the time.

Lars Ulrich did have a great remark though when they ultimately won a grammy for something a year or two later when he said, "I'd like to thank Jethro Tull for not putting out an album this year."

How about Gimme Three Steps, Lynard Skynyrd?

This song is why the bad of classic rock just stomps whatever good there might be into dust. Burn it all.

On the other hand, he also played football in the SEC in the 80's.

My personal absolutely-no-evidence theory is that Thomas saw a lot of PED use while he was at Auburn and was pressured on the subject himself (and maybe even gave in to the pressure) and had a very visceral reaction against it, which led to him being so outspoken on the subject.

Also, WAR, BA<=245, 50% of games at one of LF/RF/1B/DH:



Provided by Baseball-Reference.com: View Play Index Tool Used
Generated 9/12/2012.

Lynyrd Skynyrd played in Milwaukee last week for the annual Harley Davidson party and the guy that was promoting the event on the local news referred to LS as "he". As in , "He will be playing on Saturday...". I was surprised Molly Hatchet wasn't the opener. She rocks.

Molly Hatchet was never the same once their singer, Danny Joe Brown, left for his side project, Danny Joe Brown and the Danny Joe Brown Band.

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.

I can't let this pass unchallenged. On what grounds do you hold this opinion?

Re: Thomas and Steroids:

I don't find it to be a weird or shady position to feel that he needs to take steroids to be the MVP-caliber player he would be without steroids in a clean league, while at the same time not wanting to take steroids and thus campaigning for testing.

Well, maybe shady in the sense that if he really felt that way, he should have been open about it.

Re: Jethro Tull / Metallica:

I'm amused that a hard rock / heavy metal band sought approval (i.e., valued an award) from an organization that clearly did not understand them. "Waah! The establishment didn't recognize us for being groundbreaking and transgressive!" Only a "punk" band could be more ironic in that regard. I suppose that could be seen as a bellweather for Metallica's later commercial opinions.

Re: Jethro Tull / Lynyrd Skynyrd / Molly Hatchet:

I haven't heard much from that Pink Floyd guy in a while either. Is he a recluse? Does anyone know if he's dead?

I haven't heard much from that Pink Floyd guy in a while either. Is he a recluse? Does anyone know if he's dead

Kicking back, counting his money?

B.D. Cri's list has Don Mincher on it. Mincher was traded for Mike Epstein, who is on F. McG's list. Interesting.

If you don't like Southern rock, or C&W, which describes me, Lynyrd Skynyrd is by far the most listenable Southern Rock / C&W band (Johnny Cash and Willie Nelson are playing in a wider set of genres). Less whiny. Rocks harder. The Charlie Daniels Band (which actually has someone named Charlie Daniels in it) will probably think it ironic that I don't like Neil Young because his sound is so whiny that it sounds like C&W to me. It's enough of a bother that I even prefer, by much, CSN to CSN&Y.

I really like I Can See for Miles, but it was specifically written for the American audience, according to Pete. My favorite Who song (and I think they are the greatest rock band of all time) is Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, but that's due a lot to the fact that I heard that single in 1965, and was immediately hooked. In other words, it's the FIRST great song by my favorite band of all time. I will admit that I find it odd that anyone would pick Miles over My Generation, on icon value alone.

I have nothing coherent to say about Tull getting labeled as a metal band. I don't know that there's anything coherent for anyone to say about it.

As for Adam Dunn, I figured that the best comp would be an easy win for Rob Deer. But Deer actually hit for so LOW a batting average that he drops way down the Dunn comparison list. "Hit for too low an average to keep up with Adam Dunn" is one strange epitaph. - Brock Hanke

Now, if you want to ask why Griff and Maddux and others get assumed clean while similar guys have varying levels of suspicion tossed their way, that's perfectly fair. But Frank bought himself a little bit of good will.

Maddux and Glavine have to be suspicious. Anybody who paid attention could read between the cut scenes back when that "chicks dig the longball" commercial came out.

I can't believe that Vladimir Guerrero doesn't get accused of steroid use more often. He broke the moon!

Clearly, You Can't Catch Me by Chuck Berry would be a better base stealing song.

I'll nominate Catch Us If You Can by the Dave Clark Five; but I reserve the right to nominate another song later; after I've had some time to think it over.

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song....

This was said as a joke, right?

DB

On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing."

Last In Line by Dio, which IS better than any Beatles song, should be played any time a pitcher is one out from a no-hiiter.


I can't let this pass unchallenged. On what grounds do you hold this opinion?

Well, it's a subjective thing. I don't really have a favorite song, I don't think. That's just an example of a type of song - pomp metal, whatever - that was outside the Beatles' sweet spot. The Beatles wrote a bunch of good songs, performed them well, but they still had a certain niche and there are plenty of other types of songs that other bands did better. Stones had their style at which they were better than the Beatles. Beatles would not have made a good Led Zeppelin. Then there is jazz, big band, classical etc. The Beatles were great, but their work is still a genre and it doesn't have to be someone's favorite.

The one that gets me is the Pet Sounds crap. I accuse the Pet Sounds worshippers of loving the fact that the author went up his own bunghole and that's something they can relate to. Pet Sounds is a dead end to me.

On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing.

That's more of a Tim Raines song: "Been caught stealing, once, when I was 5."

EDIT: Carlos Beltran and Brady Anderson both had 31 SB, 1 CS years. So maybe the song is for one of them.

Feel obligated to always ask this question:
And we know that Frank Thomas was PED free because..?

He said so.

Oh.

Of course we don't KNOW that, and I've not seen anyone here claim otherwise. All we can do is weigh the available evidence. (The alternative is "guilty until proven innocent", which in this case equals "guilty", as it would be impossible to prove the negative.)

The Beatles wrote a bunch of good songs, performed them well, but they still had a certain niche and there are plenty of other types of songs that other bands did better

I'd basically agree with you (there's a vast range of music that the Beatles couldn't even attempt to do, obviously). But within the pop of their era, they are marked by a great range. They did pop songs that sound a little country ("I'll Cry Instead") and a little swingy ("Can't Buy Me Love") and a little doo-wop-like ("Oh Darling") and they did novelty songs and ballads and show-tune-like stuff, weird ethereal songs and folk songs ("The Fool on the Hill") and guitar-heavy rock songs and God knows what all. You can find a whole bunch of other contemporary acts, from the Turtles to the Animals, that did one or two songs as well in a single mode or maybe one or two of the modes the Beatles used – in fact with a little time one could make a compilation of "Beatles-like" stuff, each of whose songs the Beatles would have been proud to acknowledge, and would fit in with their work (you can start with "I'm a Believer," I'll bet McCartney wishes he'd written that). But it remains that the Beatles wrote in all those modes, and very few others could do so. I would point to the Kinks and the Rolling Stones as two groups with a respectable range and very impressive work ("Sunny Afternoon" and "As Tears Go By" would be on my "Beatles-like" compilation, both as good as any Beatles song), but it still looks narrow alongside the Beatles'.

I do tend to agree with you on Pet Sounds :)

Dustin Ackley uses Skynyrd's "Simple Man" as his at-bat music.

My personal absolutely-no-evidence theory is that Thomas saw a lot of PED use while he was at Auburn and was pressured on the subject himself (and maybe even gave in to the pressure) and had a very visceral reaction against it, which led to him being so outspoken on the subject.

I could easily see this being the case.

What are the possibilities here? We do know that Thomas spoke up in favor of steroid testing as early as the mid-1990s (1995, I believe). But did he take steroids? And if so, what consequences should that have? The possibilities are...

1. Thomas never took steroids;
2. Thomas took steroids while in college, but stopped;
3. Thomas took steroids while in MLB, but stopped prior to advocating for testing;
4. Thomas took steroids through his whole MLB career, and his testing advocacy was a ruse.

I think everyone would agree that Thomas is a no-doubt Hall of Famer in case #1. The only thing you could ding (or, conversely, praise) him for would be not aggressively naming names of users.

Case #2 should have no bearing on his HOF case, rationally, as he never cheated while in MLB. However, some hypothetically zealous zero-tolerance people (no one specific comes to mind) might still say this keeps him out.

Zero-tolerance people shouldn't really see any difference between cases #3 and #4, as Thomas would have cheated, regardless of how long he did so. But in #3 (and #2), wouldn't it have been interesting if he had openly admitted to using, and how, as someone who had experienced steroids, he felt they should be addressed? Would that have made people sit up and take notice earlier than they did (after Bonds broke the two most hallowed records)?

My favorite Skynyrd song is actually borrowed from JJ Cale. "Call Me The Breeze" sounds like swing crashing into southern boogie.

Let's ask Repoz what he thinks.

Does anyone know if he's dead?

No no no no, he's on the outside, looking in.

"Sunny Afternoon" and "As Tears Go By" would be on my "Beatles-like" compilation, both as good as any Beatles song

I respect your point, but the Beatles had at least several songs better than either.

And those are both very good songs.

In My Life, Strawberry Fields Forever, A Day in the Life, I Want to Hold Your Hand ... that's another league.

On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing.

Totally tangenting, I would love to here someone like Tony Bennett do a real slow big band version of the song, just kinda croon it out. I think it would rock, especially the Da-da-dada, dadada part. I can so see Sinatra belting that out, maybe with a little leg kick to boot.
There's a couple songs out there I'd like to see radically different versions of. It's kinda fun to picture some strange combinations. Think how fun it would be to hear a speed metal version of The Devil Went Down to Georgia with guitars taking the dueling fiddle roles.. Even if it's an ugly effort, it would still be a blast to hear a good try at it

On the other hand, Starlin Castro's theme music could be Jane's Addiction's "Been Caught Stealing."

Please tell me this is Mike Leake's at bat music!

If you don't like Southern rock, or C&W, which describes me, Lynyrd Skynyrd is by far the most listenable Southern Rock / C&W band

Allman Brothers?