Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Page 1 of 2 pages
The Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum, first of its kind in Japan, was opened in 1959 next door to Korakuen Stadium, the mecca of professional baseball in Japan. The stadium gave way to the Tokyo Dome in 1988. In the same year the museum moved to the present site within the Tokyo Dome. The new museum is twice as large as the old one. Its purpose is to contribute to the development of baseball in Japan through dedication of baseball greats--players, executives, and umpires-- as Hall of Famers and the exhibition and collection of as many memorable baseball materials as possible, including various kinds of baseball literature.
These statistics suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs,
Sheldon Hirsch is the co-author of "The Beauty of Short Hops: How Chance and Circumstance Confound the Moneyball Approach to Baseball."
He played during the steroid era. Coincidence? Maybe. But how can I ever be sure?
This is dumb. No one argues that Ichiro's performance isn't HOF worthy, the issue is that he hasn't played enough seasons to rack up a typical HOF resume so he's a special case.
The challenge to Ichiro’s HOF credentials may seem absurd to his many fans but OPS is widely accepted as a valid statistic and wOBA just tweaks it. These statistics suggest that hitters with high batting averages but limited power and modest propensity to draw bases on balls (such as HOFers Wade Boggs,
(such as HOFers Wade Boggs, Rod Carew, and Tony Gwynn, as well as Pete Rose)
You guys talk like you're unfamiliar with Ray. Let me explain: He identifies the popular opinion on any subject and then vehemently and unwaveringly argues the opposite.
Kirby Puckett: 7831 PA, .318/.360/.477/.837, 134 SB, 124 OPS+, 6 Gold Gloves, 3 top 3 MVP finishes, 6 top 10 MVP finishes
Ichiro Suzuki: 9278 PA, .319/.361/.414/.775, 472 SB, 111 OPS+, 10 Gold Gloves, 1 MVP, 4 top 10 MVP finishes
Kirby Puckett was a first-year (but not near-unanimous) Hall of Fame inductee, for pretty much the same reason Ichiro will be a first ballot inductee.
From a purely saber perspective, he's a solid choice based on a 10 year prime averaging over 5 WAR per year and peak seasons over 9 and 7 WAR.
Lofton is most similar, a player with a lot of his value coming from speed and defense. The difference is that Lofton drew more walks and hit fewer singles (his OBP is actually better than Ichiro's) so he doesn't have the 200 hit hook. He got a late start to his MLB career (starter at age 25) mostly due to an early focus on basketball.
A solid choice, yes, but not an overwhelming one. Kenny Lofton has the same case (especially prorating his 7.2 WAR in 112 games for 1994). Lofton is generally well regarded around here, but more than 95% of the voters did not find his case convincing.
Puckett is a weak HOFer, and I think comparing a CF to a corner OF is wholly invalid.
Is this the same Boggs who lead the league in BB twice? Had over 100 BB in 4 consecutive seasons and retired with the gaudy .415 OBP?
I think Lofton should be in too. If he'd stayed with the Indians for his whole career he'd probably have gotten in easily.
kthejoker is wrong: I don't think Ichiro is qualified by the standards of the actual HOF, not any personal HOF.
But yes, Ichiro will sail into the HOF
So you mean he isn't qualified by the purely objective statistical standards. Obviously you think he has met whatever nebulous "Fame" standard is used for actually putting people in the Hall of Fame. Which is something you've said before, and what I was referring to.
I also think giving him NPB credit is flat absurd, and not a serious part of any argument.
Eh. A better candidate than Ichiro but -- and this really confuses people on BBTF -- being underrated is not in itself a HOF argument. Durability is a major problem for Lofton's case.
So they will induct Ichiro, because they don't understand -- as, remarkably, many people on this site seem to forget when discussing Ichiro -- that raw hits totals and batting average are not value.
So 200 hits has no value?
So according to Ray, if Ichiro had 30 less hits a year but 30 more walks a year he'd be a better player?
But there's almost no context in MLB history in which getting 200 hits in a season doesn't have a ton of value.
So if I make up something silly and pretend Ray said it, I get some debating points?
I don't think anyone is saying that Ichiro should get into the HOF simply because he got 200 hits a bunch of times.
I would do the same for other unique talents such as Boggs and Ozzie.
I've given war credit and NeL credit. Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise. Nor was Ichiro flying combat missions or stationed in a war. Instead he was simply... born in Japan. That is entirely unremarkable.
I never get why people mischaracterize Ray's arguments so badly in these threads. What he argues is always sound, virtually orthodox stathead logic. I support Ichiro for the hall because I am a sentimental type. But if you are just looking at his American statistics objectively, I don't see anything wrong with Ray's conclusions.
Cardsfanboy is right about one thing: I consider the HOF as purely an objective inquiry and don't give credence to subjective arguments nor do I see them as at all valid, as a general rule. I've given war credit and NeL credit. Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise.
Feel free to insert "damn foreigners/slant eyes/immigrants stealing our jobs" comment if that' best reflects your objective reasoning.
Ray believes that Ichiro should not be in the HoF because we don't give no credit for furriner baseball, thankyouverymuch. If he were a *real* man, he'd have come to America and played in the majors when he was 17, not hid in some rice paddy. (Sure, this logic is idiotic and vaguely racist, but Ray is sticking to it, God bless him.)
It's not the conclusions that are a problem, it's the disingenuous way in which he dismisses sound arguments that fly in the face of his conclusions. If he wants a smaller hall than some, or if he doesn't believe in considering extra-MLB play in his evaluations, that's fine, but he won't agree to disagree on these matters. He insists not just that he's right, but that he's the only logician among us.
And he uses clever comebacks, like "Troll!"
Ichiro is not Josh Gibson, and it's a flat insult to Gibson and all the other NeL players to claim otherwise.
The NeL players were elected not as some sort of compensation for past injustices, but because they were among the greatest players of all time, based on the best evidence we have.
So we should absolutely look at Ichiro's record in Japan. The question is not "how much major league WAR did he accrue?", it's "How good was this guy?"
No such injustices are present with Ichiro. If they were, the HOF would have appointed a committee to identify and elect the NPB players who were among the greatest players of all time. Such as Sadaharu Oh.
By the way, has anyone ever scrutinized the mission statement of the HOF, or any of the other official literature, to see if non-MLB quality ought to be considered? The voting criteria neither endorse nor prohibit the consideration of non-MLB play. The idea that such play is entirely irrelevant is the bedrock upon which Ray's arguments are founded.
3. Eligible Candidates -- Candidates to be eligible must meet the following requirements:
A. A baseball player must have been active as a player in the Major Leagues at some time during a period beginning twenty (20) years before and ending five (5) years prior to election.
B. Player must have played in each of ten (10) Major League championship seasons, some part of which must have been within the period described in 3 (A).
The plaques and HOF biographies of many Negro League inductees will prominently mention their involvement in winter league baseball in Cuba and elsewhere. For example, from Willard Brown's plaque: "Two-time triple crown winner in Puerto Rican League." That's not proof that the committee was instructed to consider his international winter league play, but it's certainly a suggestion of it.
Plainly false, or the HOF would have appointed a committee to fan out and identify and elect the greatest players in the world no matter what league they had played in -- Japan, Mexico, collegiate, minors, etc.
Wade Boggs's plaque says "Legendary for his superstitions." Was that relevant to his HOF case?
So because the HOF hasn't, that means they (and we) shouldn't? Until Ichiro, there wasn't much indication that (at least a few of) the greatest players in the world weren't playing in the US.
There was a time, you realize, when people said there was no point in considering Negro Leaguers. Eventually, though, people changed their minds. We're just in the forefront of a pro-international movement. You can be in the rear guard, but you don't need to pretend that the ones in front are crazy.
You're admitting that you're out in front of the Hall of Fame on this? That seems to validate my entire point.
I also think giving him NPB credit is flat absurd
He was the best player in Japan
Rk Player WAR/pos H Year Age Tm Lg G PA BA OBP SLG OPS Pos
1 Doc Cramer -0.5 200 1940 34 BOS AL 150 712 .303 .340 .384 .724 *897/H
2 Matty Alou -0.4 201 1970 31 PIT NL 155 718 .297 .329 .356 .685 *8/H9
3 George Sisler 0.3 205 1929 36 BSN NL 154 686 .326 .363 .424 .788 *3
4 Ralph Garr 0.4 200 1973 27 ATL NL 148 698 .299 .323 .415 .737 *97
5 Willie Montanez 0.6 206 1976 28 TOT NL 163 691 .317 .352 .418 .771 *3/H
6 Rip Radcliff 0.9 207 1936 30 CHW AL 138 664 .335 .381 .447 .828 *7/H
7 Taylor Douthit 0.9 201 1930 29 STL NL 154 748 .303 .364 .426 .790 *8
8 Dante Bichette 1.0 219 1998 34 COL NL 161 695 .331 .357 .509 .866 *79/HD
9 Chick Fullis 1.0 200 1933 32 PHI NL 151 698 .309 .350 .380 .731 *8/5
10 Fresco Thompson 1.1 202 1929 27 PHI NL 148 717 .324 .398 .419 .817 *4
11 Bill Buckner 1.5 201 1985 35 BOS AL 162 719 .299 .325 .447 .773 *3
12 Bob Dillinger 1.6 207 1948 29 SLB AL 153 722 .321 .385 .415 .799 *5/H
13 Woody Jensen 1.7 203 1935 27 PIT NL 143 657 .324 .344 .429 .773 *7/H9
14 Lou Brock 1.8 202 1970 31 STL NL 155 729 .304 .361 .422 .783 *7/H9
15 Harvey Kuenn 1.8 209 1953 22 DET AL 155 731 .308 .356 .386 .742 *6
16 Michael Young 1.9 216 2004 27 TEX AL 160 739 .313 .353 .483 .836 *6/D
17 George Sisler 1.9 201 1927 34 SLB AL 149 662 .327 .357 .430 .787 *3
18 Juan Pierre 2.0 204 2006 28 CHC NL 162 750 .292 .330 .388 .717 *8
19 Pinky Whitney 2.0 207 1930 25 PHI NL 149 660 .342 .383 .465 .849 *5/H
20 Jack Tobin 2.1 202 1923 31 SLB AL 151 696 .317 .363 .476 .839 *9
21 Derek Jeter 2.2 216 2012 38 NYY AL 159 740 .316 .362 .429 .791 *6D
22 Joe Vosmik 2.2 201 1938 28 BOS AL 146 690 .324 .384 .446 .830 *7/8
23 Lloyd Waner 2.2 221 1928 22 PIT NL 152 719 .335 .377 .434 .811 *87
24 Michael Young 2.3 213 2011 34 TEX AL 159 689 .338 .380 .474 .854 D534/6
25 Mark Grudzielanek 2.4 201 1996 26 MON NL 153 696 .306 .340 .397 .737 *6
Rk Player WAR/pos H Year Age Tm Lg G PA BA OBP SLG OPS Pos
26 Doc Cramer 2.4 214 1935 29 PHA AL 149 701 .332 .373 .416 .789 *8
27 Milt Stock 2.4 202 1925 31 BRO NL 146 662 .328 .368 .408 .776 *4/5
28 Bill Lamar 2.4 202 1925 28 PHA AL 138 606 .356 .379 .468 .847 *7/H
29 Tony Gwynn 2.5 203 1989 29 SDP NL 158 679 .336 .389 .424 .813 *89
30 Doc Cramer 2.5 202 1934 28 PHA AL 152 699 .311 .353 .411 .765 *8/H
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
Login to Join (1 members)
Page rendered in 0.8325 seconds, 57 querie(s) executed