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1.Rob_Wood posted on September 17, 2012 at 06:47 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
For those of us old enough to remember, this was the word that Benny Paret called Emile Griffith before the 1960's fight in which Paret died on national TV.
2.puck posted on September 17, 2012 at 06:59 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
“All the latin players I ever played with used that as a generic curse word. Not a slur directed at a specific class.”
A lot of non-latin Americans also use "bundle of sticks" as a generic curse word. But doesn't it get its "curse" power *because* it's anti-gay? It could easily be the same with the spanish epithet.
For those of us old enough to remember, this was the word that Benny Paret called Emile Griffith before the 1960's fight in which Paret died on national TV.
you beat me to it--I was going to mention that
4.smileyy posted on September 17, 2012 at 07:05 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
[2] That's exactly right, and that tweet quoted in the article misses that point.
When I call someone a "faggot", I'm not actually making the statement that they are a man who has sex with other men. Rather, I'm saying that men who have sex with other men have some fundamentally negative attribute, and the person I'm calling a "faggot" shares those negative attributes.
I hope that Yunel Escobar is a good person who did a dumb thing, and comes out and says "I now understand that I should have written 'TU ERE PENDEJO'" in my eyeblack."
Isn't the correct conjugation "eres" not "ere" for the tu form of the verb? My vague recollection of high school Spanish makes me believe this translates to "YOU IS MARICON" (I didn't learn the definition of maricon in school).
I couldn't quite figure out the target here--it's not as if Escobar could have imagined the pitcher would be able to read the message--until I RTF, wherein Dirk Hayhurst suggests that teammates might have written on the eyeblack and Escobar thought, "Screw it, I'll wear it anyway." Don't know if that's what happened, but it makes more sense to me than someone doing it himself.
What troubles me most is that it should be "tu eres," not "tu ere." Shouldn't it?
OK, so I actually clicked on the link, and Repoz buried the lede!
@keithlaw
If that image is real, Yunel should be suspended for the season.
Also:
What’s possibly worse, we have a common sense-based suggestion from ex-Jay Dirk Hayhurst, who writes about the incident on Facebook and Twitter in no uncertain terms as though it was a prank.
“You know what, I have to think someone wrote it there, so when YE picked up the eye black sheet he read the insult at him, but then he was like, ‘screw it,’ and put it on anyways thinking everyone would laugh (probably did) and the rest is history,” he explains. “I honestly think little positive or negative thought went into this. It’s just one of those regrettable acts of stupidity.”
I don't see why that's "possibly worse," but, hey.
11.Rob_Wood posted on September 17, 2012 at 07:34 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Yes, this slur is doubly insulting. You are insulting the person, but even worse you are insulting an entire populace. It is somewhat similar to saying that a boy plays like a girl. There is a widespread movement here in the US to eliminate these types of insults from our culture.
12.smileyy posted on September 17, 2012 at 07:36 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
[6] And even in those places, I'm sure that slur is regularly directed at homosexuals for a perceived lack of manliness.
Who cares. Yuni did something stupid, or somebody punked him, or whatever. How can people have so little to their lives that they would actually give a crap? This society we have crafted sucks ass.
Nice to see Keith Law has found a new way of embarrassing himself. He's quite versatile in that regard.
"Suspended for the season", in the Blue Jays' case, would of course mean about two weeks. That doesn't necessarily seem out of line for displaying an offensive slur on your body during a game.
If it's true that a teammate wrote it and Yunel went with it, then I suppose that makes Yunel less ignorant and/or hateful, and more dumb. One would also recall that Yunel was dumped by Atlanta for never-entirely-explained "chemistry" concerns, and wonder how friendly this "prank" was. (He's not playing at all well this season either, although he was good last year.)
You don't get to decide what is and isn't offensive to other people.
No I don't, but if you want an action taken based on you "being offended" then I get to decide if you are being stupid or not. Racism exists, homophobia exists, they are when people are denied jobs, loans or anything else that affects their life in a real way. We cheapen these concepts and basically 'cry wolf' when stupid stuff like this get thrown in that same bucket. Here's how we handle this as a society: We all say, "Wow, Yuni's kind of an #######. I think less of him". Then you know what we do? We go on with our day. It's not that big of a deal. People being offended or pretending to be offended is not a showstopper folks.
17.Shock posted on September 17, 2012 at 09:01 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I would never call a gay person a faggot, unless he was being a faggot.
Isn't this just the 21st century version of Billy Ripken's FF bat?
19.Shock posted on September 17, 2012 at 09:31 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
What troubles me most is that it should be "tu eres," not "tu ere." Shouldn't it?
The poor conjugation seems to support the idea that this was a teammate pranking Yunel. One who doesn't speak spanish or speaks it poorly.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was the aforementioned Lawrie, tbph.
I pretty much agree with Dirk.
20.daveywein posted on September 17, 2012 at 09:42 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
"Tu ere" would be a fairly common pronunciation for many Latin Americans, and as such an informal spelling. I would actually think it's really unlikely for any American to accidentally conjugate "ser" (to be) in that way.
With that said, it would be incredibly odd if Escobar wrote this himself to make a statement to just about anyone.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
23.bookbook posted on September 17, 2012 at 09:48 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Guys, if you're like me you were taught pure, Castillian Spanish in school. The spoken language in Spain, much less all of the individual Latin American countries can be quite a bit different.
Robert, I'm glad you're such a fine and tolerant fellow. For myself, I'm never quite sure how intolerant to be of others' intolerance. For MLB, there's a real desire to keep receiving money from gay fans, so the calculus is all the more complicated (especially since they also want the bucks from old-fashioned ########, I suppose.)
No I don't, but if you want an action taken based on you "being offended" then I get to decide if you are being stupid or not.
This. I have to remember this statement so when somebody inevitably trots out the "you don't get to decide what I'm offended by" line I'll trot this out as my response.
For MLB, there's a real desire to keep receiving money from gay fans, so the calculus is all the more complicated (especially since they also want the bucks from old-fashioned ########, I suppose.)
Barry Bonds made some statements about whitie and I and millions of others kept on giving MLB money. MLB is going to be fine if they do virtually nothing about this. Gays may be gay but that doesn't mean they are a bunch of sissies that get their panties in a bunch over the silliest thing.
The poor conjugation seems to support the idea that this was a teammate pranking Yunel. One who doesn't speak spanish or speaks it poorly.
The missing "s" actually makes it more likely it was Escobar (or maybe Hechavarria), as Cubans are famous for dropping the "s" when they speak.
27.tshipman posted on September 17, 2012 at 10:02 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
"Tu ere" would be a fairly common pronunciation for many Latin Americans, and as such an informal spelling. I would actually think it's really unlikely for any American to accidentally conjugate "ser" (to be) in that way.
++
Agree (although I don't know much about Cuban Spanish).
So when we chant "Yankees suck, Yankees suck," we're really commending them for their attentiveness to their partner's pleasure.
29.Bob Tufts posted on September 17, 2012 at 10:05 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
When I see the earlier posts debating the Spanish grammar of the insult, I immediately think of the "Life of Brian" scene with "romanes eunt domus".
30.AndrewJ posted on September 17, 2012 at 10:08 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I'm old enough to remember Jim McMahon wearing controversial headbands on the sidelines during the Super Bowl-winning season of 1985. Commissioner Pete Rozelle told him to tone it down, and Jim did. Nobody felt anybody's First Amendment rights were being trampled.
31.Matthew E posted on September 17, 2012 at 10:09 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I think that Hayhurst's speculation makes a lot of sense, and if he's right then it would follow that the interplayer pranking and Escobar wearing the eyeblack isn't that big a thing.
However.
The Jays are a major league team. They have a fanbase and represent a city. If the fanbase and the city finds this offensive, and they do, then that makes it a big thing after all, and Escobar (and any other players who impinge on this story) should certainly have been able to come up with just this same train of thought, and taken steps to see it didn't blow up in just the way that it has. If any kind of repercussions land on anybody, they deserve it.
I'm old enough to remember Jim McMahon wearing controversial headbands on the sidelines during the Super Bowl-winning season of 1985. Commissioner Pete Rozelle told him to tone it down, and Jim did. Nobody felt anybody's First Amendment rights were being trampled.
Yeah, but this is Canada, it's a whole different ballgame under socialist hegemony.
The Jays are a major league team. They have a fanbase and represent a city. If the fanbase and the city finds this offensive, and they do, then that makes it a big thing after all, and Escobar (and any other players who impinge on this story) should certainly have been able to come up with just this same train of thought, and taken steps to see it didn't blow up in just the way that it has. If any kind of repercussions land on anybody, they deserve it.
Yeah, I can understand someone pranking Escobar like this, and I can understand him responding to the prank by saying "Screw you guys, I'm wearing it anyways", but I'm really surprised that no-one said "there's HD cameras everywhere, this'll be all over the Internet if you go out there with that on your face". This is a time where controversy can erupt when a relief pitcher has a dirty hat or spot on his jersey. Escobar playing an entire game with the Spanish word for faggot plastered on his face isn't going to be somehow missed and it really doesn't reflect well on the organization.
35.MM1f posted on September 17, 2012 at 10:42 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Waiiiit a second. I find this hard to believe. After all, every know it all internet baseball type told me that Yunel Escobar being an insufferable ####### was a completely made up story and the Braves were obviously a bunch of dumbos for letting him go?
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Not everybody works in an office.
37.flournoy posted on September 17, 2012 at 11:36 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I'm a Braves fan who didn't care for Escobar when he was a Brave, and certainly doesn't feel any more charitable towards him now that he's not a Brave. So I'm not predisposed to side with Escobar.
With that said, is there anyone who actually cares about this? Keep in mind that being concerned since there are other people who may be offended does not count as actually caring.
38.NTNgod posted on September 17, 2012 at 11:50 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
MLB spokesman Pat Courtney confirmed to ESPN.com's Jerry Crasnick and The Associated Press the commissioner's office is looking into the reports.
"The Toronto Blue Jays do not support discrimination of any kind nor condone the message displayed by Yunel Escobar during Saturday's game," the Blue Jays said in a statement Monday night, adding the club "takes this situation seriously and is investigating the matter."
If it was a teammate prank, I'd have to agree with Shock that the high-strung Lawrie would be a prime suspect IMO.
Edwin Encarnacion, Yunel Escobar and Jeff Mathis were held out for various reasons. All three players were originally listed on the lineup card, but they were then removed less than two hours prior to first pitch.
Encarnacion was held out of the lineup because of a sore big toe on his right foot. He aggravated the injury while running to third base during Saturday's 3-2 loss to Boston
[...]
Escobar and Mathis were both scratched because of flu-like symptoms. The flu bug has been going around the Blue Jays' clubhouse in recent weeks, and the pair has become the latest casualties. They're both expected to be ready for action on Tuesday against the Yankees.
The timing's either really suspicious or really unfortunate.
40.Shock posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:00 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
"Tu ere" would be a fairly common pronunciation for many Latin Americans, and as such an informal spelling. I would actually think it's really unlikely for any American to accidentally conjugate "ser" (to be) in that way.
You misunderstand. I'm not thinking that they knew the verb ser and conjugated it poorly; I'm thinking they overheard the phrase "tu eres maricon" somewhere and spelled it wrong.
41.Shock posted on September 18, 2012 at 12:01 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
The timing's either really suspicious or really unfortunate.
Holy crap, maybe Mathis is the culprit and they can somehow use this to void his contract.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Well right, that's what we currently do. You sort of missed the point. I was speaking of what we should do, in a decent society, where we have goals other than keeping HR departments as large and lawyers as busy as possible.
45.DFA posted on September 18, 2012 at 02:29 AM #hit 0 | hit 0
Yeah, but this is Canada, it's a whole different ballgame under socialist hegemony.
You mean the people's republic of canada, eh?
As far Escobar goes, he put the stupid eye black on, so whether it was a joke or not, he put it on. I look forward to booing him until he retires or more likely is cut.
Well right, that's what we currently do. You sort of missed the point. I was speaking of what we should do, in a decent society, where we have goals other than keeping HR departments as large and lawyers as busy as possible.
I don't know that I'd call a society where casual bigotry is condoned is one I'd call decent. I'm pretty happy that my workplace is pretty clear that it doesn't allow hateful speech. It's certainly a lot less stressful that way.
Now there's certainly a broad range of shitty behavior, and I agree most people should generally let stuff go and others should think for half a second before spewing out whatever crap is in their heads, but writing "you're a faggot" on your face seems clearly over the line to me. I mean, come on.
He obviously wore them, but we don't know that he put them on.
Absolutely. Entirely possible he doesn't do it in a mirror by himself. Hechavarria or a disillusioned coach could have done it, like Farrell. If you'd seen some of his moves lately you'd know what I mean. Or Lawrie, Canadian honeybadger just don't give a sh!t.
I don't know that I'd call a society where casual bigotry is condoned is one I'd call decent. I'm pretty happy that my workplace is pretty clear that it doesn't allow hateful speech. It's certainly a lot less stressful that way.
Since we are now on the third lap on this, I'm going to go ahead and conclude that you either didn't fully read or fully understand my original post 16. So I'm going to move on.
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1 2 3 4 5 6 >A lot of non-latin Americans also use "bundle of sticks" as a generic curse word. But doesn't it get its "curse" power *because* it's anti-gay? It could easily be the same with the spanish epithet.
you beat me to it--I was going to mention that
When I call someone a "faggot", I'm not actually making the statement that they are a man who has sex with other men. Rather, I'm saying that men who have sex with other men have some fundamentally negative attribute, and the person I'm calling a "faggot" shares those negative attributes.
I hope that Yunel Escobar is a good person who did a dumb thing, and comes out and says "I now understand that I should have written 'TU ERE PENDEJO'" in my eyeblack."
What I wanna hear more about is this:
I assume this means Spanish-speaking, because Escobar is not Spanish. Wikipedia says Cuba is one of the places where it means "faggot".
What troubles me most is that it should be "tu eres," not "tu ere." Shouldn't it?
Also:
I don't see why that's "possibly worse," but, hey.
Nice to see Keith Law has found a new way of embarrassing himself. He's quite versatile in that regard.
Maybe Keith was offended because he's gay. Who knows?
You don't get to decide what is and isn't offensive to other people.
If it's true that a teammate wrote it and Yunel went with it, then I suppose that makes Yunel less ignorant and/or hateful, and more dumb. One would also recall that Yunel was dumped by Atlanta for never-entirely-explained "chemistry" concerns, and wonder how friendly this "prank" was. (He's not playing at all well this season either, although he was good last year.)
And, here's the Lawrie article. It'd be interesting to hear his reaction.
No I don't, but if you want an action taken based on you "being offended" then I get to decide if you are being stupid or not. Racism exists, homophobia exists, they are when people are denied jobs, loans or anything else that affects their life in a real way. We cheapen these concepts and basically 'cry wolf' when stupid stuff like this get thrown in that same bucket. Here's how we handle this as a society: We all say, "Wow, Yuni's kind of an #######. I think less of him". Then you know what we do? We go on with our day. It's not that big of a deal. People being offended or pretending to be offended is not a showstopper folks.
The poor conjugation seems to support the idea that this was a teammate pranking Yunel. One who doesn't speak spanish or speaks it poorly.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was the aforementioned Lawrie, tbph.
I pretty much agree with Dirk.
With that said, it would be incredibly odd if Escobar wrote this himself to make a statement to just about anyone.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Robert, I'm glad you're such a fine and tolerant fellow. For myself, I'm never quite sure how intolerant to be of others' intolerance. For MLB, there's a real desire to keep receiving money from gay fans, so the calculus is all the more complicated (especially since they also want the bucks from old-fashioned ########, I suppose.)
This. I have to remember this statement so when somebody inevitably trots out the "you don't get to decide what I'm offended by" line I'll trot this out as my response.
Barry Bonds made some statements about whitie and I and millions of others kept on giving MLB money. MLB is going to be fine if they do virtually nothing about this. Gays may be gay but that doesn't mean they are a bunch of sissies that get their panties in a bunch over the silliest thing.
The missing "s" actually makes it more likely it was Escobar (or maybe Hechavarria), as Cubans are famous for dropping the "s" when they speak.
++
Agree (although I don't know much about Cuban Spanish).
However.
The Jays are a major league team. They have a fanbase and represent a city. If the fanbase and the city finds this offensive, and they do, then that makes it a big thing after all, and Escobar (and any other players who impinge on this story) should certainly have been able to come up with just this same train of thought, and taken steps to see it didn't blow up in just the way that it has. If any kind of repercussions land on anybody, they deserve it.
I think it's because you don't have "First Amendment" rights when you an employee at the workplace.
If you wear a shirt or post a sign at work that your boss doesn't agree with, you can't claim First Amendment rights if he punishes you for it.
Yeah, but this is Canada, it's a whole different ballgame under socialist hegemony.
Yeah, I can understand someone pranking Escobar like this, and I can understand him responding to the prank by saying "Screw you guys, I'm wearing it anyways", but I'm really surprised that no-one said "there's HD cameras everywhere, this'll be all over the Internet if you go out there with that on your face". This is a time where controversy can erupt when a relief pitcher has a dirty hat or spot on his jersey. Escobar playing an entire game with the Spanish word for faggot plastered on his face isn't going to be somehow missed and it really doesn't reflect well on the organization.
Not everybody works in an office.
With that said, is there anyone who actually cares about this? Keep in mind that being concerned since there are other people who may be offended does not count as actually caring.
If it was a teammate prank, I'd have to agree with Shock that the high-strung Lawrie would be a prime suspect IMO.
FWIW (probably nothing) Escobar and two other Jays were late scratches from yesterday's lineup:
The timing's either really suspicious or really unfortunate.
You misunderstand. I'm not thinking that they knew the verb ser and conjugated it poorly; I'm thinking they overheard the phrase "tu eres maricon" somewhere and spelled it wrong.
Holy crap, maybe Mathis is the culprit and they can somehow use this to void his contract.
I can dream.
Not sure how that matters. Employment law applies in all workplaces.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Well right, that's what we currently do. You sort of missed the point. I was speaking of what we should do, in a decent society, where we have goals other than keeping HR departments as large and lawyers as busy as possible.
You mean the people's republic of canada, eh?
As far Escobar goes, he put the stupid eye black on, so whether it was a joke or not, he put it on. I look forward to booing him until he retires or more likely is cut.
I don't know that I'd call a society where casual bigotry is condoned is one I'd call decent. I'm pretty happy that my workplace is pretty clear that it doesn't allow hateful speech. It's certainly a lot less stressful that way.
Now there's certainly a broad range of shitty behavior, and I agree most people should generally let stuff go and others should think for half a second before spewing out whatever crap is in their heads, but writing "you're a faggot" on your face seems clearly over the line to me. I mean, come on.
He obviously wore them, but we don't know that he put them on.
People from Phoenix are Phoenicians!
Absolutely. Entirely possible he doesn't do it in a mirror by himself. Hechavarria or a disillusioned coach could have done it, like Farrell. If you'd seen some of his moves lately you'd know what I mean. Or Lawrie, Canadian honeybadger just don't give a sh!t.
Since we are now on the third lap on this, I'm going to go ahead and conclude that you either didn't fully read or fully understand my original post 16. So I'm going to move on.
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