Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
Some of players got caught. They got their drugs from a small-time dealer named Kirk Radomski, a clubhouse attendant with the Mets who ratted them out. Clemens allegedly fell in with Brian McNamee, a former cop who proclaimed himself a trainer.
But other players were smarter and kept their secrets hidden. The Hall of Fame shouldn't be determined by who covered up their wrongdoing the most effectively. If so, then what is the point?
But it beats stabbing around in the dark and hoping to be right.
Paging GGC! I forget what the Abraham beef was with Primer...was it about steroids/HOF?
So is Clemens out because of some moral code or is he in based on those first 13 years?
After watching an episode of Baseball last night I was playing with bWAR for Bonds in the same light. If you retire Bonds after 2000*, Bonds is Lou Gehrig, both done at an early age for superstars with 108 WAR. If you give him a generous non-steroid decline phase, -0.5 WAR per season and retiring at age 40, he's Hank Aaron: 138 WAR in a very long and consistent career. Doesn't that seem about right?
*Maybe I should be using 1999 instead, I can't recall the most-likely start of steroid usage.
The bright line illegal PED solutions are:
1. If you were caught after MLB and the MLBPA put drug testing in the CBA, you can and should be punished by the BBWAA voters
2. Before that agreement, if you were caught by law enforcement, you can and should be punished by the voters.
Anything else is speculation, hearsay and nonsense that passes for the currency of the realm of inkstained wretches.
...Clemens was ridiculously good for 13 year with the Red Sox. Then, if you believe McNamee, he started using PEDs when he got to Toronto in 1997.
17. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: November 28, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4311723)
I just looked up Sosa's stats and was shocked at how low a lot of his numbers are despite the 609 homers. I honestly don't know if I'd vote for him or not. His case is quite unique. After his age 28 season, he was sitting on .257 .308 .469 with a 107 OPS+ in almost 4400 PA and no seasons higher than 127, and never leading the league in anything except Ks. Then he somehow hits 292 homers over the next five seasons, averaging 58 a year with a .306 .397 .649 line and a 167 OPS+, leading the league in runs, homers, total bases and RBI a combined 10 times. Then he had two more decent seasons and was washed up by age 36.
It almost seems wrong not to discount that five year run of video game stats, but even with them, his career OPS+ is only 128. I know the conventional wisdom is that steroids can't all of a sudden make you a Hall of Famer, but that doesn't seem to fit Sosa. I realize he was a valuable defensive player for at least the first half of his career, but never a game changer. I'd vote for Palmeiro before him, who's OPS+ is 132 in 2150 more PA. I would certainly vote for Bonds, Piazza, Bagwell, and Clemens, so I'm not strictly anti-steroid by any means, but Sosa's case just seems so weird.
The weird thing about Sosa to me is not the dramatic leap forward but the almost immediate collapse. The shape of his career from peak to end is very Rice-ian as he went from the best year of his career to replacement level in a couple of seasons.
If Carlos Ruiz is now banned from the HOF, doesn't it seem like the BBWAA is applying a ridiculously more punitive penalty than the league? The 50 game suspension is the penalty. If you think it should be more start arguing for a multi-year suspension like track and field or cycling.
If Carlos Ruiz is now banned from the HOF, doesn't it seem like the BBWAA is applying a ridiculously more punitive penalty than the league?
After his age 28 season, he was sitting on .257 .308 .469 with a 107 OPS+ in almost 4400 PA and no seasons higher than 127, and never leading the league in anything except Ks. Then he somehow hits 292 homers over the next five seasons, averaging 58 a year with a .306 .397 .649 line and a 167 OPS+, leading the league in runs, homers, total bases and RBI a combined 10 times. Then he had two more decent seasons and was washed up by age 36.
It is a much, much stiffer penalty, but it's intentional so as to discourage PED usage.
That's not remotely why BBWAA guys are imposing that penalty. It's a combination of trying to distance themselves from something they participated in and being upset that people broke the records of their boyhood heroes. The writers don't give a #### about discouraging PED use; they're only interested in moral grandstanding.
Rk Player OPS+ Year Age G R1 Barry Bonds 268 2002 37 143 1172 Barry Bonds 263 2004 39 147 1293 Barry Bonds 259 2001 36 153 1294 Barry Bonds 231 2003 38 130 1115 Mark McGwire 216 1998 34 155 1306 Jeff Bagwell 213 1994 26 110 1047 Frank Thomas 212 1994 26 113 1068 Willie McCovey 209 1969 31 149 1019 Barry Bonds 206 1993 28 159 12910 Mickey Mantle 206 1961 29 153 13111 Barry Bonds 204 1992 27 140 10912 Sammy Sosa 203 2001 32 160 14613 George Brett 203 1980 27 117 8714 Norm Cash 201 1961 26 159 11915 Jason Giambi 199 2001 30 154 10916 Dick Allen 199 1972 30 148 9017 Mike Schmidt 198 1981 31 102 7818 Frank Robinson 198 1966 30 155 12219 Jim Thome 197 2002 31 147 10120 Mark McGwire 196 1996 32 130 10421 Mickey Mantle 195 1962 30 123 9622 Albert Belle 194 1994 27 106 9023 Hank Aaron 194 1971 37 139 9524 Carl Yastrzemski 193 1967 27 161 11225 Albert Pujols 192 2008 28 148 100Rk Player OPS+ Year Age G R26 Kevin Mitchell 192 1989 27 154 10027 Albert Pujols 189 2009 29 160 12428 Gary Sheffield 189 1996 27 161 11829 Rickey Henderson 189 1990 31 136 11930 Reggie Jackson 189 1969 23 152 123
These are the top OPS+ seasons of batting title qualifiers since 1960. Sosa's 203 OPS+ is tied for 12th. And 6 of the top 11 are Barry Bonds.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
Login to Join (0 members)
Page rendered in 0.5292 seconds, 73 querie(s) executed