It really is like trades I've made on Baseball Mogul before and laughed to myself, "that would never really happen."

Am I crazy that I think this trade actually is pretty even for both teams?

I don't think we can evaluate the trade until we see what the Sox do with the money they just saved. If John Henry sticks it in his pocket and Boston decides to set a budget of $80M or so, then the Dodgers win the trade on the field.

This doesn't guarantee the Dodgers a playoff berth by any means, but it certainly puts them in fine shape for 2013 and beyond. Gonzalez in particular should thrive on escaping the Bosox soap opera and returning to SoCal.

Your average Red Sox fan this monring:

"You maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell! "

if you consider this from a purely corporate running a company perspective you had employees who had ties to previous leadership, you gave them some time and decided that to get things moving in the right direction you needed to 'fire' them. now in most corporate settings this would have happened a lot sooner but baseball has its own nuances so you can understand the lag. but eventually cleaning house was required.

gives new leadership two things, just to put their own folks in place and also tell the remaining employees either get on board or leadership will find a new home for those employees not buying into the program.

that and this would appear to solidify your manager's position.

better work though. 'shareholders' aka fans have limited patience.

are the Sox sending $12 million per year for 6 years to the Dodgers, or $12 million total?

The only thing this was missing was Ray declaring it impossible and stupid to even discuss.

But, we had a lot of that from elsewhere, so still pretty fun.

It didn't seem to add up at the time because nobody saw this on the horizon, but I guess now we know who leaked that Gonzalez texted ownership to whine about the manager. It was who it always is there - management itself.

The only thing this was missing was Ray declaring it impossible and stupid to even discuss.

Wasn't the entire second page of the waiver claim thread full of Ray claiming that?

It didn't seem to add up at the time because nobody saw this on the horizon, but I guess now we know who leaked that Gonzalez texted ownership to whine about the manager.

Kelly Shoppach, duh.

Wasn't the entire second page of the waiver claim thread full of Ray claiming that?

Yes, and they all seem to have disappeared.

EDIT: My mistake. Found them starting at #246

Slap me with a drumstick and call me the Colonel, I haven't seen a purge like this Fidel took over. They're really moving out all of the malcontents and chicken-eating fatboys. Is Pedroia going to be next?

Is Pedroia going to be next?

Good, it's not just me thinking this.

9,11 - The "idiot fanboy proposal" reaction to the first report looks humorous in retrospect.

Hell of a trade.

The obvious downside to this mega-deal is it will further embolden the legions of WFAN callers bellowing for the Yankees to acquire King Felix for Brett Gardner, Jayson Nix, Chris Stewart, and Manny Banuelos.

are the Sox sending $12 million per year for 6 years to the Dodgers, or $12 million total?

Silverman says (in the excerpt) it's $12M total over six years.

Who says you can't fire the team?

awesome. thanks MCOA

Tom Werner just described James Loney as "untouchable" a couple years ago. Does anyone here remember any time in which James Loney, who makes Adrian Gonzalez look like Jimmie Foxx, was in that category?

Well, crap. I know this season's going nowhere, and that there seems to be a method to this madness, but I was really looking forward to finally seeing Crawford could do and Adrian Gonzalez and and and...

The hot stove season has started early and it's going to be insane.

I am still of the mind that until I see these players (save Crawford, of course) actually change uniforms, it isn't done. But let's look ahead as if this were done:

a) less than a week after TJS, would Crawford show up at the press conference?
b) this would mean that Valentine is likely safe, at least into 2013, right?
c) I don't understand the groupthink developing that Ortiz is absolutely coming back. If the Sox are "punting" 2013 in exchange for payroll flexibility here, what could a zillion-year-old DH provide for them?
d) the hot stove could be essentially over in August. Has that ever happened before?

When asked last night if he was planning on returning, Ortiz replied: of course why not.

this would mean that Valentine is likely safe, at least into 2013, right?

yes to that, but given the housecleaning, the likelihood is he gets the boot after October.

c) I don't understand the groupthink developing that Ortiz is absolutely coming back. If the Sox are "punting" 2013 in exchange for payroll flexibility here, what could a zillion-year-old DH provide for them?

Something positive for the fans to root for. It's all about PR even if the Sox don't put together a contending team (which should be the goal). 2/32 or something like that for Ortiz won't hamstring the Sox after these deals and while the majority if fans I think are pleased about this okay people are going to want some recognizable names next year.

Don't know all the players involved, but the winner is Carl Crawford. He had to get out of that stadium, if there is one stadium in baseball designed to counter all his value/skills, it's Fenway. He's going to go out and post 115+ ops+ and people are going to say getting away from the pressure of Boston is why, when we know the reality is getting away from Fenway is why(of course that is if he ever becomes healthy to play everyday)

c) I don't understand the groupthink developing that Ortiz is absolutely coming back. If the Sox are "punting" 2013 in exchange for payroll flexibility here, what could a zillion-year-old DH provide for them?

The conclusion follows from the premise, but I don't accept the premise. 2013 should be a bridge year, where the Red Sox balance present and future goals with more of a tilt to the future, but they should not "punt" on a $170M budget with the core talent they still have. The Sox should be aiming at a 90-win roster for next year and Wild Card contention.

d) the hot stove could be essentially over in August. Has that ever happened before?

The Red Sox, for one, are not close to done with their hot stove. Now they have to build a roster for 2013 (and beyond) using their new cash reserves and perhaps some of the new young talent they've acquired. I think a trade for Justin Upton is not unlikely.

9,11 - The "idiot fanboy proposal" reaction to the first report looks humorous in retrospect.

I was wrong, so wrong, so very very wrong. I'm still shocked that this trade was completed so easily.

Tom Werner just described James Loney as "untouchable" a couple years ago. Does anyone here remember any time in which James Loney, who makes Adrian Gonzalez look like Jimmie Foxx, was in that category?

I don't know if untouchable's the word, but he was highly regarded in Los Angeles. There's a report from two years ago that the Dodgers refused to include Loney in any trade for Cliff Lee back when he was a Mariner. In 2010 the Dodgers reportedly shot down a Loney/Broxton for Prince Fielder deal at the winter meetings.

the hot stove could be essentially over in August. Has that ever happened before?

It's just begun.

d) the hot stove could be essentially over in August. Has that ever happened before?

Are you kidding? The hot stove season is going to be insane. A big market team on the heels of a massively disappointing season has $100 million to spend, a strong farm system to make some trades and a host of holes to fill. Agents everywhere are rubbing their hands together gleefully. Rumors this off season are going to be beyond ridiculous.

James Loney is roster fodder. Put him back on the mound and see if he can become a reasonable reliever.

Loney was once a pretty big time prospect. From B-Ref:

Pre-2003: Rated #34 Prospect
Pre-2004: Rated #42 Prospect
Pre-2005: Rated #62 Prospect
Pre-2007: Rated #44 Prospect

He broke out in 2006 with a 950 OPS in his first taste of AAA competition. He hit .320 with unexpected power in the majors from 2006-2007. In retrospect, that looks not insignificantly like a BABIP / PCL fluke, but the Dodgers have been expecting him to be a batting title contender for years on the basis of his numbers at ages 22-23.

yes to that, but given the housecleaning, the likelihood is he gets the boot after October.

I don't think so. I think all of these actions pretty clearly prove that high level management has decided that the malcontents are the real problem, not Valentine. I think he gets one more chance next year.

e) Gomez and the neck guy are going to get an extended tryout

Um um um Wow.

My favorite part of this is the random inclusion of Nicky Punto. That is exactly like a video game trade.

I do think that if I'm Pedroia and I'm presented with the option, I lease but don't buy in Boston at this time.

And if I'm Punto, I start calling myself "The Lynchpin" and have a bunch of T-shirts with that name printed up.

Ciriaco has been playing regularly for awhile now so that's not going to change. I'd be surprised if Gomez got much more PT though, I don't think the Sox think they have anything there. The first baseman next year isn't with the organization today ( and that includes Loney).

I don't think so. I think all of these actions pretty clearly prove that high level management has decided that the malcontents are the real problem, not Valentine. I think he gets one more chance next year.

Agreed. (never thought I would say that)

At my job, the HR people weekly have some sort of soothing address that says "If you don't like how things are going, come talk to us!"

They work for the company, not for me. If there's some sort of conflict between me and the company, they'll side with the company and find a way to get me out of there.

So don't be honest; don't let them know that there is a problem, unless you're ready to pack your bags. And if you are, just quit and negotiate your own landing place.

These comparisons with baseball are tricky; me and most of my fellow posters are "at-will" employees, while these baseballers are contract employees. But if Gonzo really liked it in Boston but was expressing his honest disappointment and assessment of what was wrong and then was told "Pack up and go West while we take care of things here", it could (and probably should) have a chilling effect for other players communicating openly with ownership.

Slap me with a drumstick and call me the Colonel, I haven't seen a purge like this Fidel took over.

I was thinking the Saturday Night Live "cast fire."

I think this is a terrible, terrible trade for Boston. It's yet another of the "too cute by half" moves they always seem to be making. The issue, IMO, is that they simply can't accumulate enough WAR in one off-season to be competitive in the AL East next year, barring usual flukiness. (90 wins, as MCoA posits? From where?)

Because the market for players isn't particularly liquid, the $260M or whatever that comes off the books can't just be immediately sowed back into the team. A lot of that money, by necessity, has to lay fallow for a season or more until opportunities come to spend it efficiently. If you put it to use immediately, you can get more players but the WAR/$ ratio won't be any better than in the previous incarnation of the roster, the one you just blew up.

The point of the game isn't to maximize WAR/$, its to maxmize WAR. Those two goals are very similar, normally overlap, but not always. This is a time where they don't overlap.

I also think prospects are perpetually overrated. Bird-in-#######-hand over the guy in AA with a nice K-rate.

The point of all this is that even if you think that Beckett or Crawford aren't worth their ongoing contracts, it's still not necessarily a good move to trade everyone at once.

What contracts do people think Gonzalez, Beckett, and Crawford would get if they were free agents this winter? Seems like a huge overpay for the Dodgers, almost entirely because of Crawford.

Where's that moron ray-ray? Getting a long overdue software upgrade? He says more dumb things in one day on this site than most do in their entire lives. It's truly spectacular to behold at times.

What contracts do people think Gonzalez, Beckett, and Crawford would get if they were free agents this winter? Seems like a huge overpay for the Dodgers, almost entirely because of Crawford.

In the other thread I assumed that Beckett and Gonzalez could get their current deals and that Crawford could get 3/45 as a strong bounceback candidate.

Holy Snikes, what a ballsy move.
Say what you will, this one takes cojones.
And what a message it sends.It lets all of baseball know that the dog wags the tail, not vice versa.

I go up and down on it. I'm delighted to be rid of Crawford and Beckett, but losing Agon was a steep price. And I have little faith in the FO ability to go out and fill the many gaps.
I'm scared and happy and nervous and giddy and my head,I think it gonna explode.

Wasn't the entire second page of the waiver claim thread full of Ray claiming that?

No ####### way!

Totally missed that, shouldn't have assumed.

If the Sox are really only paying $12 million total, I guess I have to change my position and get on the bandwagon, however grudgingly. I was expecting many multiples higher -- maybe something in the $70-90 million range. If its only $12 million, the long-term benefits of ditching the declining years for these guys makes it pretty hard to pass it up.

That said, I'm a lot less optimistic than MCoA about the short-term implications. There isn't a lot of talent available on the free agent market, and with so many teams awash in TV revenue I expect there are going to be a lot of overpays and very few bargain signings. 2004 was great and all that, but the likelihood of going out and getting another Ortiz from the scrapheap or another Bill Mueller is not high -- these kinds of moves simply don't pan out all that often even when you have the most skilled front office talent evaluators. On top of that, judging from their recent record, I don't see much reason for confidence that the current management team has any particular skill at identifying undervalued players. Their real skill seems to be in overvaluing and overpaying guys.

Trading for Upton is an intriguing idea, but he's coming off a very disappointing season and it is far from a sure thing that he'll bounce back, particularly in the Boston environment. The fact that the D-Backs management appears to be intent on running him out of town raises some red flags -- while whatever problems Upton is having with the D-Backs may well not be his fault, it doesn't bode particularly well for his ability to handle the situation in Boston. In any case, there are likely to be a lot of suitors for him given his clear upside, and to get him the Sox may have to pay a very steep price in prospects,

There are also several other reasons why the non-rational part of my brain hates this trade: (i) we are sure to now see yet another of the Sox patented anonymous-yet-almost-certainly-officially-sanctioned smear campaigns against the departing players. The inability to take the high road and STFU is my least favourite thing about the current ownership/management group; (ii) I think this means at least another year of Bobby V., who I predict will be given a further chance to see what he can do with a new squad of "his" guys; (iii) the talk radio guys and the CHB et al. are going to be even more insufferable than usual this winter, and next year if the team is bad (which seems to me the most likely scenario).

So while this trade may be for the best in the long term, I'm still not looking forward to the short term very much.

That said, I'm a lot less optimistic than MCoA about the short-term implications.

The important thing here is the baseline. The Sox, before the trade, had about $15M to spend and a 85-88 win roster, maybe. That's not a club in contention for anything other than the wild card, and they weren't in great position for the middle-term. The job for 2013 is tough, and I don't mean to undersell how difficult it is to bring in the talent the Sox need, but the baseline job was going to be even tougher, I think.

The hot stove season has started early and it's going to be insane.

Did the 2011 hot stove season ever really end?

They work for the company, not for me. If there's some sort of conflict between me and the company, they'll side with the company and find a way to get me out of there.

What's funny is that (at my company at least) the most junior employes always run straight to HR at the first hint of conflict. It's like they think that there's a rule against talking to your supervisor.

What contracts do people think Gonzalez, Beckett, and Crawford would get if they were free agents this winter? Seems like a huge overpay for the Dodgers, almost entirely because of Crawford.

Well, the Dodgers seem to be OK with giving Gonzalez what the Red Sox gave him. Maybe they're a little too quick to conclude that he's still a very good hitter who just had a bad first half; time will tell. I'd guess that they probably think that Beckett is going to be overpaid for a back-of-the-rotation-innings-eater, but what the hell it's only for two years. And Apparently they're assuming that Crawford has sucked because of his injuries and will come back to be worth a 5yr/$90M contract.