Read More...Shaughnessy is too good to have to invent anything. He neither invented anything in this instance nor accused Ortiz of using steroids and their cousins. What he did was take his skepticism and his curiosity, good traits for a newspaperman to have, and ask Ortiz about steroids. Ortiz’s responses did not indicate anger of being accused of wrong doing.
I would compare the Ortiz column to the columns I have written about Mike Piazza and my suspicions about his possible use of steroids. I ...
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1 2 >I've heard for years that steroids are as ubiquitous in the NBA as they ever were in MLB, and no one really cares about that either. As for explaining that, well, no sport's fans are as attached to its history and tradition and the myth of its own purity quite like baseball's.
Nails it.
I think this is the big issue. NFL records are fairly meaningless to most fans and when they fall the occasion is celebrated, there is little comparison of the game today vs. yesterday. Additionally, the history of the game prior to Super Bowl I is largely ignored. Baseball records are revered and when they fall there is always discussion of the way the game has changed, hell, when the most famous record, Ruth's 60, was broken there was a debate about 162 vs. 154 games and that pre-dates the Super Bowl era. And of course the history of the game gets much more attention than it does.
Just by way of example, the New York Giants have several lovely t-shirts on their web site proclaiming them as "4 time Super Bowl Champions" rather than "8 time NFL champions". It would be like the Yankees saying they were 7 time World Series champions and ignoring the pre-division era titles.
EDIT: Or y'know, what Gonfalon said.
1. The vast majority of NFLers are treated as and seen to be interchangable, anonymous pieces of meat. Strip-mine, next man up, repeat.
2. Steroid use in the NFL doesn't affect the play balance. It doesn't matter if the amassed pieces of meat fighting for turf are 270 or 330 pounds. Steroid use in baseball effectively shrinks the ballparks.
And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:
In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s defensive line.
In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! – I hope I’ll be safe at home!
Who's this "we" you're referring to?
-Mark Twain
To pick football players that I really liked in college that are now in the pros, I have no idea what Robert Sands face looks like. Or Bruce Irvin. Or even Noel Devine, who was a four year star at WVU. Then again, it could just be me.
Seriously. Hasn't this been thrashed out a few thousand times already?
Yeah, and besides... [1] nailed it.
Done in one.
Executive producer, Roone Arledge.
Well, my view is along the lines of [3], but the point is this is a discussion that has long since been conducted, exhaustively.
While I agree with the premise that we care more about our baseball players doping than our football stars,* I don't think these examples say as much as Dayn and others suggest. Yes, Merriman made the Pro Bowl, but that accomplishment wasn't greeted with shrugs, but considerable opposition. Enough that the commissioner immediately determined that anyone testing positive wouldn't be able to earn such distinctions. As for Cushing, yes he won the AP's revote. But they had one. When Braun won the MVP, but before the overturn, the BBWAA decided they wouldn't revote the MVP. It's hard to see how either decision is more outragey than the other.
As for why we care more for our baseball guys**, I think SBB and TerpNats have the key reason. Football players, other than a handful of visible stars, are anonymous and replaceable. If Peyton or Tom Brady or Drew Brees tested positive, I think that would activate the rageometer in a hurry.
** For the record, as a baseball fan, I consider the fact that we care about our baseball players and not about our gridiron ones to be, ultimately, a good thing.
Are you serious with this?
Of course. I think it's good for the sport that fans identify with the players, both the current ones and the ones that came before, that they don't just consider them anonymous and disposable. That their acheievements and records and legacies matter. I don't know why that would be viewed as a negative.
That fans don't think the same about the NFL players is decidedly not a good thing for that sport.
But it's therefore a good thing that we "not care about our gridiron ones"?
Look, to the extent that the problem with PEDs in sports is that they might endanger the health of athletes, that's entirely a good thing. But to then say that it's a good thing that a fan should decide to care about the health of athletes in this sport but not that one utterly undercuts the generosity of spirit of the first principle.
I tried to clarify that in the next paragraph. It's good for baseball that fans care about it, and it's not good for the NFL that its fans are indifferent. As a baseball fan first, and well, last, I view things through the lens of what things mean for baseball.
That this attitude has the side effect of overzealous and oft-illogical anger over the use of PEDs is unfortunate, but the fact that we care about our ballplayers is ultimately a good thing for the sport and its future, I believe.
Okay.
I guess I would say that all of our attitudes would be better focused on what's best (and what's right) for everyone, that they're not "our" ballplayers, and that the most important thing isn't necessarily what's a good thing for any given sport.
I believe he included visibly pregnant women in that.
As I get older and have more responsibilities, I find that a point in the NFL's favor.
Also, because of the media's sick need for baseball to constantly have a crisis.
Julius Peppers, and a large number of his teammates including the punter, did at one point.
Thanks, but weren't all of those individuals tagged pre-Merriman?
So permit me to rephrase the question: Five MLB players have tested positive for PEDs in 2011 alone. How many NFL players have tested positive since Merriman did in '06? Cushing in '10 and who else?
That one is easy. Bruce Irvin looks like the Predator
That's a good point - the NFL has at least had an official punishment plan for much longer than MLB has. One of the big issues for baseball was that players were cheating, but had no actual consequences.
Baseball is a much safer sport than football. Many of its fans see it as a more "civilized" sport. PED's and the health risks associated with them add a level of ugliness and danger to the game that did not previously exist...
edit: Apparently Dwayne Bowe was suspended a few years ago and he's not on the wikipedia list, so it's probably not worth much.
Lance's statement is pretty detailed: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-full-statement-on-usada
PED use is rampant in the NFL to a degree that vastly outstrips baseball. Anyone who seriously tries to argue otherwise is a fool or making money doing so.
Of the NFL, NBA, and MLB, MLB is pretty clearly the "whitest" league (or at least the "non-blackest"). Someone during the NBA lockout made a comment about "plantation owners" and I think there is probably some truth to that -- also in the NFL. Do we (fans in general) think of NFL players as "interchangeable, anonymous pieces of meat" because of the nature of the game, or because of the way they look? I wonder. Maybe fans (in general) care less about the well-being of/have lower expectations for black athletes playing predominantly black sports.
It seems to me that if Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers tested positive for steroids, it would be a pretty big deal.
With the rise of Fantasy Football this is no longer true. Most football fans recognize most of the skill guys now, including back-ups. You know what those baseball players look like because you are a very devoted baseball fan, most fans would have no clue who those guys are. I'd recognize Punto, and certainly know who the rest are, but put them in a lineup and I would only guess at who they were based on looks.
It seems to me that if Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers tested positive for steroids, it would be a pretty big deal.
That's because of their position and (in their specific cases) their accomplishments much more than it is their race. I don't know about outside of Washington, but in Redskins Nation it'd be like the second assassination of JFK if "RG3" tested positive.
(BTW if you want to see media suckup, the RG3 phenomenon in Washington is like Derek Jeter x Bryce Harper, squared, and he's yet to take his first regular season snap.)
Baseball, meanwhile, everybody has a face at all times, and while casual fans perhaps only recognize the big stars and the guys on their favorite team, the fact is: you can see their faces. And baseball players all, more or less, look like average Joes, while all of the padding and helmets makes even the most average Joe of NFL players look superhuman.
Which is really ironic, as it really strikes you then when you see a baseball player and a football player next to each other. I once saw Cal Ripken shaking hands and talking with Jim Kelly, and even taking into account that Ripken was famously tall for a SS, it was kind of shocking to see how imposing Ripken was compared to Kelly. But if Jim Kelly had been back in his playing days and in full pads and gear, it probably would have been the other way around.
Yeah, but QB's, RB's, WR's and LB's make up a large portion of the players. Sure, lineman are for the most part completely overlooked (aside from defensive ends), safeties, fullbacks and 3rd/4th WR's are too. But I just don't buy that the average fan would recognize a utility infielder and not a tight end.
I don't know, seeing football players in the ESPN Body magazines actually impresses me more than seeing the player in pads. In pads you don't realize just how much of their bulk is muscle. Naked football players are freaking huge.
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