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Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.
I'm expecting HOM too. But I'm often surprised how bad players turn out to be that I thought were awesome, and vice versa. OK not "bad" exactly, but not HOM material. For example Lou Brock "seemed" better than Jake Beckley but it turned out not to be so.
4.AROM posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:16 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Right on the border. Better than Ken Boyer, not as good as Ron Santo.
Because Rolen added so little to his stats after his first nine full seasons, he probably won’t sniff Cooperstown. It doesn’t help that he wasn’t properly rated when he was at his best.
I fear he's destined to become this generation's Santo.* Legitimately great glove at third, excellent bat. He should be an easy Hall of Fame choice, but he's probably gotta hope for a future functioning Vet's committee to have a chance.
He's not going to fare well being compared to Chipper Jones on the same first ballot. Chipper got a nice send-off. Rolen kind of went out with a whimper.
He wasn't entirely right in the 2006 playoffs, but he did just enough to help the Cardinals win the World Series. For that, he'll have my eternal thanks.
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.
TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
11.hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Scott's been on a major slope down since about August of '10. Shoulder/back issues were just too much.
The one thing that impressed me during the 1-1.5 seasons I got to see a healthy Rolen, was how good of a baserunner he was for his size. Always seemed to get good reads on balls and take the extra base. You could just tell he was an amazing athlete.
12.BDC posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Rolen is so high on the relevant third-baseman lists that I thought I'd do a comps list that includes both 3B and all outfielders, centered on him in terms of PAs and OPS+, with some speed-related totals, and ranked by WAR Fielding Runs:
Player Rfield PA OPS+ 3B SB Pos Adrian Beltre 185 8697 112 30 115 *5/D64 Scott Rolen 172 8518 122 43 118 *5 Robin Ventura 154 8271 114 14 24 *53/D641 Ichiro Suzuki 96 8723 113 80 452 *98/D7 Ken Boyer 74 8272 116 68 105 *58/36 George Burns 70 8251 114 108 383 *798/5 Carlos Beltran 69 8349 122 74 306 *89/D7 Sal Bando 37 8287 119 38 75 *5/D36417 Ron Cey 19 8344 121 21 24 *5/D3 Paul ONeill 8 8329 120 21 141 *9/73D81 Stan Hack 2 8508 119 81 165 *5/3 Heinie Manush -1 8419 121 160 113 *789/3 Carlos Lee -18 8787 113 19 125 *73/D Amos Otis -35 8247 115 66 341 *8/79D5 Ken Singleton -59 8559 132 25 21 *9D7/8 Toby Harrah -96 8767 114 40 238 *564/D9 Bobby Bonilla -121 8257 124 61 45 5973/D81
It gives one a sense of what kind of outfielder has a batting career similar to these outstanding 3B. My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch, though Boyer & Hack IIRC are in the Hall of Merit, and there might be others I've forgotten. No wait, Heinie Manush is in the Hall of Fame, who knows why.
The 3B on that list tend to be elite players, though it confirms AROM's point that they're also not the inner circle at 3B, not the Bakers and Boggses and Bretts of the position.
afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.
JD Drew
Canseco
14.JJ1986 posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Colby Rasmus?
15.hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 01:55 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Without the emergence of Frazier, the Reds may have tried to bring him back on a one year deal. But I don't think they'll make an offer, even as a backup.
I'm not opposed to the Reds making an offer for a 3b, even with Frazier. It's likely Ludwick will decline the $5M mutual option and want at least a 2 year deal. Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.
TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
Todd Cruz, Francisco Barrios, Aurelio Rodriguez, and Lynn McGlothen?
Edit: Didn't know that Baker ever played for La Russa.
I'm hard pressed to determine whether Schmidt or Rolen was the better fielder, having seen all of Schmidt's career and much of Rolen's (didn't see much when I lived in KC when Rolen started). I know Beltre is really good but haven't see that much of him -- is he really better than Rolen? Wow.
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.
TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
Ozzie Guillen, Dusty Baker, Reggie Jackson, and Wayne Nordhagen?
20.BDC posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:01 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
I've seen a lot of Schmidt and Beltre, much less of Rolen. Schmidt and Beltre are hard for me to compare, because I saw Schmidt play almost exclusively on artificial turf, which meant a very different style. Beltre reminds me a bit of a great hockey goalie; he's a really supple guy, lightning-quick. Schmidt was fast straight ahead as well as quick (Beltre's not fast), and so he was outstanding at charging the ball, and Schmidt had a better arm than Beltre. I don't know where Rolen fits in, so my remarks are somewhat oblique, not to say pointless :)
The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth. Did TLR not get along with Canseco or are you saying that just because of his later shenanigans and roid accusations?
Just saw an old clip of ABC's Battle of the Superstars (or whatever that was called). It was the 100-yard dash final (won by Lynn Swann, with gargantuan shotputter Brian Oldfield coming close for second) and Dave Kingman was the lone baseball representative to make the race. The commentators mentioned that he'd defeated Schmidt to make the final.
Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.
You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.
Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.
If the price is right Kevin Youkilis would be a great fit. He's from Cincinnati, he's a talented hitter and as a righty fits nicely between Votto and Bruce (or around them in some capacity) and he's probably going to be banged up enough that Frazier would get ample at bats. I love Youk so I'm biased, I think he's a good fit everywhere.
29.hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:18 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.
Yeah I have not looked at the options. The only one I know is a FA off the top of my head is Youk. Youk is a hometown guy and all, but I'm pretty sure the Reds can get a better option in LF and keep Frazier at 3b.
hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.
Did Jordan and TLR not get along? I'm asking because Jordan seemed well thought of when he played for the Cardinals. I've seen him on several Cardinals telecasts over the years and the impression you get is that Jordan enjoyed playing in St. Louis.
38.GuyM posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:46 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
Jordan and TLR clashed at one point. But a quick Google search turns up an article suggesting they are on good terms today. So I guess not.....
Another candidate: Ron Gant, who once said TLR had trouble getting along with Black players.
39.hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 02:55 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
hokie, Youk's about it. Big risk there, I think, as the bidding might be energetic and he gets a bigger, longer contract that we expect. For a team that has Frazier in the wings, it's a better risk than some team like Philly who has Kevin Frandsen, Freddie Galvis or excretable MiniMart as backups.
Yeah. The Reds don't necessarily need a 3b. I was just trying to think outside the box of trying to upgrade the offense. I'm confident Frazier can handle the full time job and produce at the plate and in the field nicely.
As much of a risk as Youk is, I consider giving Ludwick 2+ years just as equal of a risk. Plus Youk at 3b would presumably require Frazier playing LF, which is not his "natural" position.
Setting aside whether he makes it or not, doesn't Rolen at least deserve to make the HoF? He's 8th all-time among 3B in WAR, and 5th in WAR/PA--if a guy is this clearly among the top 10 at his position, don't you punch his ticket?
41.phredbird posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:04 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
TLR was on the local radio show promoting his book, and afterwards the host tweeted that TLR told him there were four players that played for him that he would never speak to again.
TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.
i believe ozzie won't talk to him.
42.BDC posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:06 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
One thing to dig about Rolen (we had a trivia question on this, this summer) is the *5 standing alone in his B-Ref position column. Never played an inning anywhere else, and despite interleague and some time in the AL, never even DH'd. Including his ample postseason play, too.
[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.
44.hokieneer posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
[42] Wow, that's pretty cool! I thought I remembered him playing SS a couple of times. Looking back, I must be thinking of the guy he was traded for, Troy Glaus.
Yeah I seem to remember him having a SS rating one year in Strat-o-Matic, but I must be thinking of Beltre or Glaus.
i hate being right about rolen's 2010. he so radically changed his approach to sit on the inside corner i figured it was scott realizing the just could not handle the outside half any longer
pitchers adjusted and then he got hurt and then he was done.
(42) Is that the record for most career games while only playing one position? I looked up most games played a 3rd base and everyone above Rolen played at least a few games at other positions.
47.JJ1986 posted on October 12, 2012 at 03:33 PM #hit 0 | hit 0
i apologize for the first sentence. while accurate i hate the way that sounds. i tried to delete but the edit function just spooled and nothing happened
again, apologies for that sentence. it reads awful
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1 2 >I fear he's destined to become this generation's Santo.* Legitimately great glove at third, excellent bat. He should be an easy Hall of Fame choice, but he's probably gotta hope for a future functioning Vet's committee to have a chance.
* BBRef WAR really sees it this way.
Maybe it was better off that Rolen turned down the Phils megaoffer back in 2002 or whenever it was. Things would have gotten even uglier.
And he'd be on my Hall of Fame ballot.
TRIVIA: CAN YOU NAME THEM?
The one thing that impressed me during the 1-1.5 seasons I got to see a healthy Rolen, was how good of a baserunner he was for his size. Always seemed to get good reads on balls and take the extra base. You could just tell he was an amazing athlete.
Player Rfield PA OPS+ 3B SB PosAdrian Beltre 185 8697 112 30 115 *5/D64
Scott Rolen 172 8518 122 43 118 *5
Robin Ventura 154 8271 114 14 24 *53/D641
Ichiro Suzuki 96 8723 113 80 452 *98/D7
Ken Boyer 74 8272 116 68 105 *58/36
George Burns 70 8251 114 108 383 *798/5
Carlos Beltran 69 8349 122 74 306 *89/D7
Sal Bando 37 8287 119 38 75 *5/D36417
Ron Cey 19 8344 121 21 24 *5/D3
Paul ONeill 8 8329 120 21 141 *9/73D81
Stan Hack 2 8508 119 81 165 *5/3
Heinie Manush -1 8419 121 160 113 *789/3
Carlos Lee -18 8787 113 19 125 *73/D
Amos Otis -35 8247 115 66 341 *8/79D5
Ken Singleton -59 8559 132 25 21 *9D7/8
Toby Harrah -96 8767 114 40 238 *564/D9
Bobby Bonilla -121 8257 124 61 45 5973/D81
It gives one a sense of what kind of outfielder has a batting career similar to these outstanding 3B. My gosh, there doesn't seem to be a HOFer in the bunch, though Boyer & Hack IIRC are in the Hall of Merit, and there might be others I've forgotten. No wait, Heinie Manush is in the Hall of Fame, who knows why.
The 3B on that list tend to be elite players, though it confirms AROM's point that they're also not the inner circle at 3B, not the Bakers and Boggses and Bretts of the position.
JD Drew
Canseco
I'm not opposed to the Reds making an offer for a 3b, even with Frazier. It's likely Ludwick will decline the $5M mutual option and want at least a 2 year deal. Bringing in a full time 3b and letting Heisey/Frazier play in LF with Frazier getting 500 PA being the super-sub at LF/3b/1b is an option.
Edit: Didn't know that Baker ever played for La Russa.
Rolen
Canseco
Rasmus
Ozzie
Ozzie Guillen, Dusty Baker, Reggie Jackson, and Wayne Nordhagen?
The answer was never revealed, but my best guess was Rasmus, Ozzie and Rolen, and I don't know for the fourth. Did TLR not get along with Canseco or are you saying that just because of his later shenanigans and roid accusations?
Darryl Kile.
Just saw an old clip of ABC's Battle of the Superstars (or whatever that was called). It was the 100-yard dash final (won by Lynn Swann, with gargantuan shotputter Brian Oldfield coming close for second) and Dave Kingman was the lone baseball representative to make the race. The commentators mentioned that he'd defeated Schmidt to make the final.
You might want to take a look at the 3B options before you embark on that plan. We've been obsessing in Philly all year no one has a very good solution.
If the price is right Kevin Youkilis would be a great fit. He's from Cincinnati, he's a talented hitter and as a righty fits nicely between Votto and Bruce (or around them in some capacity) and he's probably going to be banged up enough that Frazier would get ample at bats. I love Youk so I'm biased, I think he's a good fit everywhere.
Yeah I have not looked at the options. The only one I know is a FA off the top of my head is Youk. Youk is a hometown guy and all, but I'm pretty sure the Reds can get a better option in LF and keep Frazier at 3b.
Yeah, so'd I. See you in hell.
EDIT: Perhaps "Josh Hancock" would've been slightly less tasteless...
Brian Jordan?
Did Jordan and TLR not get along? I'm asking because Jordan seemed well thought of when he played for the Cardinals. I've seen him on several Cardinals telecasts over the years and the impression you get is that Jordan enjoyed playing in St. Louis.
Another candidate: Ron Gant, who once said TLR had trouble getting along with Black players.
Yeah. The Reds don't necessarily need a 3b. I was just trying to think outside the box of trying to upgrade the offense. I'm confident Frazier can handle the full time job and produce at the plate and in the field nicely.
As much of a risk as Youk is, I consider giving Ludwick 2+ years just as equal of a risk. Plus Youk at 3b would presumably require Frazier playing LF, which is not his "natural" position.
i say rolen, lankford, drew and rasmus.
i believe ozzie won't talk to him.
Yeah I seem to remember him having a SS rating one year in Strat-o-Matic, but I must be thinking of Beltre or Glaus.
pitchers adjusted and then he got hurt and then he was done.
sigh......
again, apologies for that sentence. it reads awful
Or Ray Lankford, who IIRC TLR denigrated after he was gone, saying something about how Lankford whiffed all the time.
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