I thought he was a Cubs fan.

I used to follow Mother Love Bone, but Andy is in heaven - so I like Kanye.

Well, whatever you can say about switching fandom, he's not a front-runner.

Would the world be a better place if Pearl Jam had never existed?

Now, I like Pearl Jam well enough. I'm not a super-fan, and I haven't listened to a lot of their recent stuff, but they wrote a lot of good rock and roll songs. This would be a loss.

However, what if Scott Stapp and Chad Nickelback Uglyface and the rest of them had never heard Eddie Vedder do his Vedder vocal thing? I think Vedder pulls it off, somehow, but he inaugurated a style of rock singing which has been a blight on our culture. If millions people hadn't come to appreciate Vedder, would they have accepted Stapp and Uglyface and the sludgy dirges over which they brayed?

I propose that despite the good music Vedder and company have made, we might be living in a better world if they'd gotten real jobs instead.

However, what if Scott Stapp and Chad Nickelback Uglyface and the rest of them had never heard Eddie Vedder do his Vedder vocal thing? I think Vedder pulls it off, somehow, but he inaugurated a style of rock singing which has been a blight on our culture. If millions people hadn't come to appreciate Vedder, would they have accepted Stapp and Uglyface and the sludgy dirges over which they brayed?

Is Vedder's vocal style really all that different from whats-his-dead-name from Alice in Chains or Cobain or whomever from the grunge era?

How could you understand anything he was saying? Vedder saying he likes the Twins probably went like this:

"I um...gurble, Minnesala Tbans. Go Tbans!"

Yeah, #5. Like almost all inventions and innovations, someone doing the same thing probably would have come along soon after, or, someone was already doing it but just didn't get the attention.

But otherwise I can get behind the`theory.

I propose that despite the good music Vedder and company have made, we might be living in a better world if they'd gotten real jobs instead.

But then who would have backed Matt Dillon in Singles???!?!?

Is Vedder's vocal style really all that different from whats-his-dead-name from Alice in Chains or Cobain or whomever from the grunge era?

Oh yes, at least different from Cobain (I've managed to forget what Alice in Chains sounded like, which is at least one benefit of impending dementia). Vedder does this thing that you can imitate by sort of narrowing your mouth and pushing the base of your tongue forward and singing from low in your throat in a voice lower than you naturally would, preferably the word "well" or "yeah". Cobain was far more natural.

Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and Creed were the first bands I remember with singers who exactly aped Vedder. In the late 90s & early aughts I got dragged to see a lot of metalish bands in the Tampa area, and they all had a Vedder clone fronting them. The thing is that you can ape him even if you have relatively limited pipes, while someone like Cobain is a lot harder to pull off.

Is Vedder's vocal style really all that different from whats-his-dead-name from Alice in Chains or Cobain or whomever from the grunge era?

I just learned that zonk is not between the ages of 33-40. I'm guessing older.

I just learned that zonk is not between the ages of 33-40. I'm guessing older.

Actually, I'm 38!

But seriously - explain to me the distinctions... OK - Layne Staley tended to moan more, but when I hear Jeremy or whatnot, I hear the same vocal stylings I hear in say... most of Nirvana's stuff - just with a different voice doing the yelping.

I just learned that zonk is not between the ages of 33-40. I'm guessing older.

Or he's an indie music guy.

Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and Creed were the first bands I remember with singers who exactly aped Vedder

STP and Creed I can see. Bush? Not so much.

If memory serves, Bush was seen as more of a Nirvana ripoff; STP & Creed were viewed as Pearl Jam copyists.

I also have vague memories of something called Silverchair & something else called Candlebox, but I have no idea where they fit on the spectrum; luckily, they're really vague memories.

Well, it looks like I've forgotten what Bush sounded like as well. Aging really does have its benefits!

EDIT:

I also have vague memories of something called Silverchair & something else called Candlebox, but I have no idea where they fit on the spectrum; luckily, they're really vague memories.

Silverchair was the Australian kid band that didn't contain Ben Lee. That much I'm clear on.

If memory serves, Bush was seen as more of a Nirvana ripoff;

That's how Trent Reznor saw it:

It shocks me to see Bush go to No. 1. Not to single them out, but I just can't respect them. Do they write good songs? Yeah, they've written some good songs. But I cannot respect or tolerate the lack of innovation.

Music is my life. I know everything I can know about it. I know that it's not background. It's not stuff you put on in the car to drive home from your job at IBM. It means something to me. And that's why I hate when something so uninteresting can be so successful. But I'm going into it with this purist attitude. I can see that Bush song as exactly this Nirvana song. I can tell. #### them for doing that, you know? But it's also well-written enough that a guy who comes home from work can say, "Yeah, that's a good song. These guys rock."

The guy from Candlebox sounds exactly like Vedder.

Yeah, not a Bush fan at all, but Gavin Rossdale's vocals were probably the least offensive part of their sound.

Cobain and Vedder sound(ed) absolutely nothing alike. Compare two live performances:

Nirvana, Breed
Pearl Jam, Black

(And, to be clear, I think "Black" is a pretty great rock song. But Vedder and Cobain sound nothing alike, and you can hear so many of the offenses against sound committed in the last two decades lurking even in Pearl Jam's best singles, and that simply isn't true at all of Nirvana.)

This is the thread where I needlessly antagonize KT's Pot Arb until he offers to take me to another baseball game.

I actually was at a Pearl Jam concert once, though I'm not sure I ever remembered them playing. I was at the 1992 Lollapalooza at Alpine Valley to see Ministry.

Or he's an indie music guy.

This.

The NW sound/grunge just never caught on with me -- which is strange (geographically, at least) because I love the stuff coming out of Vancouver (New Pornographers and the member's solo stuff... much to, I'm sure, Shredder's dismay - haven't been able to get into Destroyer yet).

Also strange - I do/did enjoy much of the stuff that might be that sound's primary influence - Sabbath, Zeppelin, Hendrix, etc. I just truly loathed Alice in Chains, found Nirvana lacking on a personal level (even if I can appreciate the occasional artistry). Pearl Jam, I just found to be the least offensive of the lot. I wasn't a glam metal guy hanging onto lost glory - it was time for that genre to go, I just felt like GnR was doing perfectly fine ridding the world of mascara and spandex.

I likewise enjoyed a lot of the British stuff that was basically an answer to the Seattle sound -- Pulp, Blur, even Oasis.

I like to think I have relatively eclectic tastes - queued up on my ipod right now is a Cheap Trick song off their debut (He's a Whore), which looks to be followed by Los Campesinos, then Marty Stuart... but grunge just never really did it for me. A few things here and there - I could handle Soundgarden in small doses and if what's his other name hadn't died, it's possible I'd have gotten into Mother Love Bone (and we wouldn't have Pearl Jam!)... but I think I'd have really hated living in Seattle in the early 90s.

The guy from Candlebox sounds exactly like Vedder.

Umm, no he doesn't. When he's singing on the low end of his range he adopted some of the same vocal mannerisms but the voice isn't really similar. On the high end of his range I could see an argument that he tries (and fails) to ape mid-to-late period Chris Cornell.

Edit: also, Vedder was always primarily a basketball fan. Which is a far greater offense than inspiring lackluster copycat vocalists.

Or he's an indie music guy.

This.

The NW sound/grunge just never caught on with me (...)

I am two years older than zonk and from an indie background. When I started getting into indie music at 15 or 16 grunge was very much an indie form. Pretty much everyone my age with my background has a Mudhoney EP or two stashed away somewhere, next to the My Dad is Dead and Bastro LPs. It's interesting what a vast difference a couple of years can make.

and you can hear so many of the offenses against sound committed in the last two decades lurking even in Pearl Jam's best singles, and that simply isn't true at all of Nirvana.)

Ehhh, I think this is just a fancy way of saying that you prefer Nirvana and music that is less mainstream.

Also, I assume most people here despise Live's Throwing Copper, which went like 7 times platinum, and which would never have sounded like it did if not for Nirvana's success.

I hated grunge at first (i.e. until about 1995), but since then I've always been up for a listen of the first wave (PJ, Nirvana, STP, Alice in Chains, Soundgarden). I hated most of the second wave though (7 Mary 3, Creed, Nickeback, etc.). They were just so GD contrived.

Silverchair took a radical departure with the Diorama album in 2002, its more pop than grunge. It didn't sell well, but I've always liked it.

I actually was at a Pearl Jam concert once, though I'm not sure I ever remembered them playing. I was at the 1992 Lollapalooza at Alpine Valley to see Ministry.

Same here ... except in my case it was Dallas. Only thing of consequence they did was a cover of "Sonic Reducer" -- Pearl Jam, that is, not Ministry.

Ol' whine-voice himself, Eddie Vedder, is back in the gossip pages today, talking about switching his fandom.

Sources report that nobody is interested and nobody cares.

Vedder is like karlmagnus - basing his fandom on the GM!

Yeah, not a Bush fan at all, but Gavin Rossdale's vocals were probably the least offensive part of their sound.

Offhand, I can think of 2 songs of theirs I like -- "Glycerine" & "The Chemicals Between Us." Of course, that's 2 more than about 50,000 other bands have come up with.

Stone Temple Pilots, Bush, and Creed were the first bands I remember with singers who exactly aped Vedder.

The story on the ground was that STP actually admitted out loud somewhere that they were the most popular Redd Kross cover band in existence.

How could you understand anything he was saying? Vedder saying he likes the Twins probably went like this:

"I um...gurble, Minnesala Tbans. Go Tbans!"

Hrbek hrbek hrbek, hrbek hrbek hrbek. Hrbek. Mientkiewicz hrbek.

Offhand, I can think of 2 songs of theirs I like -- "Glycerine" & "The Chemicals Between Us." Of course, that's 2 more than about 50,000 other bands have come up with.

FWIW, I REALLY liked 16 Stone. Almost every song on the album seemed to be good in a different way.

I don't generally like Grunge. More of a hair-band guy myself because I grew up in the 80s.

This is the best song from the last hairband before Nirvana made Grunge cooler than hair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IfiLehLFJw

So it's not like I am fanboying for Grunge.

Only thing of consequence they did was a cover of "Sonic Reducer"

Did they wring the life right out of that song?

One of the things about early punk is that most (but not all) of songs were pretty uninteresting until infused with the manic glee they were performed with. Take that away and something definitely lacks.

John Waite made craploads of money and had a legitimate career that spanned decades. Jimmy Pursey probably made 5% as much and his big hit could have been written on the bus on the way to the studio and he needed a co-writer for it. But one of them never has to buy a pint at a football pub ever again and it ain't Waite.

It's a pity that American Dad isn't more popular around here because my best Bush story is exactly like the AD episode where Klaus (the fish) scores Fabulous Thunderbirds tickets and gets enormously upset that no one else shares the excitement.

In my case, it was a buddy who got Bush tickets shortly after their debut album and could never quite wrap his head around the fact that no one was particularly interested in seeing them. I'm fairly sure he still has 3 unused Bush concert tix somewhere...

and you can hear so many of the offenses against sound committed in the last two decades lurking even in Pearl Jam's best singles, and that simply isn't true at all of Nirvana.

Ehhh, I think this is just a fancy way of saying that you prefer Nirvana and music that is less mainstream.

No, I was saying that I wasn't making a distinction of quality. My point is a number of bands heard Vedder's vocals, and some of the tendencies of Pearl Jam's music, and turned parts of it up to 11 while losing pretty much everything that made the music work. My point is that I really like Pearl Jam, but in retrospect their music created the conditions of possibility for Creed to go platinum.

One of the best concerts I've ever seen was Stone Temple Pilots when they toured a year or so ago. They weren't that tight, and they had to stop one song halfway through because they forgot how the thrid verse went, but they really played up the crown and you could tell they were having an absolute blast to be playing together again. Just so you don't all think I'm a grungie, I'd have to say the best I ever saw was Feist in an old renovated theatre.

This is the best song from the last hairband before Nirvana made Grunge cooler than hair:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IfiLehLFJw

Holy crap, I swear to God this opens with the riff from Billy Bragg's "Love Gets Dangerous". Can't listen, cognitive dissonance killing brain!

couldn't find the song. can't help you with that.

Its ironic that Nirvana became the standard bearer for grunge, since I never thought they had much to do with those other bands other than hailing from the PNW.

Alice in Chains, Soundgarden and Pearl Jam all sound pretty similar. Nirvana sounds like the last of the Our Band Could Be Your Life 80s indie bands.

I am here to defend the idea that Cobain and Vedder sound similar. When your context is other Vedder clones like Stapp and Uglyface, of course, they do not sound alike. But that's setting the bar at impressionist level. When your context is all of the rock n roll in the previous 30 years (the sweet harmonies of The Beatles, Beach Boys, Byrds, the idiosyncratic styles of Dylan and Young, the strutting high-octave wailing of Robert Plant and Eddie Van Halen and Axl Rose and Freddie Mercury, the clear tones of Bowie or Bono or David Byrne ...), Cobain and Vedder occupy a similar space.

Speaking of songs that might remind you of something you've heard before, I give you this.

(Apologies for the delay in getting to the relevant part).

Speaking of songs that might remind you of something you've heard before, I give you this.

I've found striking the four chords / Pachelbel-is-everywhere observation. I don't have a good enough ear to really hear this unless someone else points it out to me, sadly.

Rob Paravonian's Pachelbel Rant

Axis of Awesome, "Four Chords"

I am two years older than zonk and from an indie background. When I started getting into indie music at 15 or 16 grunge was very much an indie form. Pretty much everyone my age with my background has a Mudhoney EP or two stashed away somewhere, next to the My Dad is Dead and Bastro LPs. It's interesting what a vast difference a couple of years can make.

Can't say I was expecting a My Dad is Dead reference on BBTF.

Offhand, I can think of 2 songs of theirs I like -- "Glycerine" & "The Chemicals Between Us." Of course, that's 2 more than about 50,000 other bands have come up with.

I like "Machine Head". It's a good driving song.

Any grunge thread gives me the chance to offer up from the era the greatest band that nobody ever heard of: Thirty Ought Six.

I was never a big Soundgraden fan at all, liked but didn't relaly love any Nirvana album until their last one, loved the Screaming Trees, liked some Alice in Chains here and there. I was more of a hard glam-rock and pop type. Redd Kross, Jellyfish, Degeneration, Smashing Pumpkins, Weezer, Nerf Herder, etc. I think my older brother's punk collection of scary bands made most of the grungers seems just like they weren't angry enough.

Thirty Ought Six.

Russel Crowe's band?

Bush sounded like Nirvana with more guitars.

Am I really the only one that things STP was BY FAR the best of those well known early grunge bands?

When I was 13 or so and first started listening to grunge, I thought a lot of it sounded the same. STP sounded like a Pearl Jam knockoff (I remember someone, I believe it was David Spade, making this joke on SNL at the time) and I found them hard to listen to as a result. After a while the whole genre became difficult to listen to for the same reason.

Now when I revisit those earlier albums, it's very easy to hear the differences, both in the music and in the vocals. STP was awesome and sounded almost nothing like Pearl Jam. Same with Soundgarden, Nirvana. Even Alice in Chains, who I never liked, had their own sound. But a lot of the crappy groups that came after them do sound the same, and they sound more like Pearl Jam/Vedder than anyone else.

#45, "by far" is stretching it, but they are underrated.

I don't listen to much grunge at all, but I do still listen to the radio, and that means that all of those 90s bands pop up, on the alternative station and now on the classic rock station. And my opinion, formed in the last few years, is that STP is a band that really doesn't stand up.

#45, "by far" is stretching it, but they are underrated.

they were OK - Interstate Love Song is a fine driving tune.

One grunge song I loved - that Temple of the Dog tune "Hungry".

I enjoy reading histories of grunge that paint it as a major musical breakthrough. Maybe it was. I was 10-12 years old during the important years, just at the age when I started watching MTV and buying (or directing my parents to buy me) cassettes and CDs. And for me and my friends, Aerosmith (with Get a Grip and the Alicia Silverstone videos) was almost as big in those years. "November Rain" was a thunderous hit released less than a year after "Smells like Teen Spirit." So was Van Halen's "Right Now." I knew which bands were old, and which were new, but we didn't really distinguish between them so much. Some revolutions have blurry edges except in hindsight.