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    • Thursday, May 23, 2013

    FanGraphs: Sullivan: Vance Worley and Losing the Magic

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    posted 1 day ago by Repoz to twins  |  2 comment(s)

    Mescaline Mike, to me at the bar. “If you want a real sleeper for your fantasy team this year…think Vance Worley.” #mind-fogging

    Vance Worley just got clobbered again, this time by the Braves. There’s no set and certain point at which a start turns into an official clobbering, but looking through Worley’s 2013 game log, I’d say this was the fifth or sixth time he’s been clobbered, in ten games. That’s an ugly ratio, and to make matters worse, recall that Worley was Minnesota’s ...

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    1. Bill Liming posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:31 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Carlos Ruiz at 3B is out of position, Ryan Doumit has 664 innings in the OF in the majors. He might suck out there and it might be foolish to play him there (I don't know), but he's not out of position.
    2. JJ1986 posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:34 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    From the headline I figured he was playing 3B at least.
    3. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:38 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    When was the last time an outfielder had 3 errors in an inning? That's kind of remarkable. I saw a game where Bob Brenly made 3 errors in an inning playing 3rd base for the Giants. My favorite out of position moment came when I was at an A's game and Mike Heath--a catcher--was playing 3rd base. On a grounder to third Heath bobbled the ball a bit and, before he picked it up, he tore his hat off as if he were still wearing a catcher's mask. He made the play, though.
    4. Der_K posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:50 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    2: i'd guessed third as well
    5. Greg (U)K posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:50 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    My favorite out of position moment came when I was at an A's game and Mike Heath--a catcher--was playing 3rd base. On a grounder to third Heath bobbled the ball a bit and, before he picked it up, he tore his hat off as if he were still wearing a catcher's mask. He made the play, though.

    Once Kevin Millar was playing 3B for the Jays, and due to a shift, had to turn a double play. That was pretty hilarious (and as I recall he actually turned it)

    EDIT: Ah-ha found it! Sept 29, 2009, it was Ortiz batting which explains the shift (and the fact that Millar was able to throw him out).
    6. TomH posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:51 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    nuthin beats Tommy John gathering 3 Es on one (long) play!
    7. James Newburg is in awe of Cespedes' CORE STRENGTH posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:52 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    The best out-of-position situation I've seen was in this game (summary from Pedro Feliz Wikipedia page):

    On June 8, 2007, in a game against the Oakland Athletics, Feliz played catcher for the first time in his major league career. During that game, the Giants' starting catcher Bengie Molina left on a double switch. Their backup catcher, Eliézer Alfonzo, was injured on a play at the plate and had to leave the game in the 10th inning. With the Giants out of position players, Feliz moved to catcher, Randy Winn moved from center field to third, Dan Ortmeier moved from right field to center, and pitcher Noah Lowry came into the game in right.
    8. Greg (U)K posted on September 13, 2012 at 09:59 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Wow I'd forgotten about Noah Lowry. Whatever happened to him?
    9. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:05 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Wow I'd forgotten about Noah Lowry. Whatever happened to him?

    IIRC injuries happened to him.
    10. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:15 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Mike Greenwell caught in extra innings against Oakland back in '88 or so. It was every bit as bad as a non-catcher playing catcher could be, he threw away a sacrifice bunt setting up the big inning and the A's stole 3-4 bases on him. The big disappointment is that when the inning blew up on the Sox they didn't go to Al Nipper who was working on a knuckleball at the time. That would have been great fun. (looking it up the A's only stole 2 bases and there was a wild pitch).

    In the late 90s the Red Sox got caught in an extra inning game with Damon Buford having to move to the infield. Jimy Williams kept moving him around depending on the batter to minimize the likelihood of him fielding a ball leading to this pretty funny notation in the box score at BBRef; Damon Buford PR-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B (and John Valentin had the corresponding moves).

    In 2004 the Sox started Doug Mientkiewicz at second base in September. His first play was a tough short hop that he converted for a tag and throw out 4-3 DP. Joe Castiglione on the radio went crazy.

    11. zonk posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:17 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Piker...

    I made 3 errors on a single batted ball once in HS -- playing 2B, runners at 1st and 2nd -- tailor-made DP ball... rolls right through my legs for error #1. The SS and CF both run after my error and I cover 2B while the adventurous batter and baserunners try to take an extra base. Had the batter by 10 feet -- but I just flat dropped the ball (or rather, it fell out as I tried to make a flashy tag). Error #2. Sensing history in the making, the runner originally on 1st/now on 3B decides to break for the plate. Not wanting to let all 7 fans in the stands down, I dutifully airmailed the throw home about 20 feet over the catchers head. Error #3.

    12. Shooty is in the Trust Tree  posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:21 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    In 2004 the Sox started Doug Mientkiewicz at second base in September. His first play was a tough short hop that he converted for a tag and throw out 4-3 DP. Joe Castiglione on the radio went crazy.

    He had a great glove, though.
    13. DL from MN posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:25 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I feel a little bad for Doumit. He's out there because Willingham has a bad hamstring (though Willingham lost a ball the day before). Mauer has back spasms but Terry Ryan was quoted by that same news source that he sees no reason why Mauer couldn't catch 100 games if they needed him to.
    14. DL from MN posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:27 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    "This has been a little bit of a transitional year for him," Ryan said. "But this was more of an experimental thing: 'How much can we use him?' Early it was touch and go. All right? How much can we catch him and how much can we DH him and how much can he play first? Under the circumstances, (66 starts at catcher) seems like a pretty good number right now."


    http://www.twincities.com/twins/ci_21528681/minnesota-twins-joe-mauer-misses-second-straight-game?source=pkg
    15. SouthSideRyan posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:41 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    [10]Lou Piniella did the same thing with Soriano in '09.

    I got to see Freddie Bynum make 3 errors in a game, and it really should've been 5 if I recall, but he got away with them from a pop up he couldn't touch, and a DP he didn't turn. Jacques Jones started laughing at him before he was mercifully removed midway through the game.
    16. Harveys Wallbangers  posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:43 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    on a somewhat related note chipper jones had an awful fifth inning last night. he really looked really slow out there. there were at minimum two ground balls in the inning that i think a spryer third baseman would have converted into outs at first
    17. BourbonSamurai, vassal of the Harpsburg Empire posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:46 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Doumit has been huge for my fantasy squad this year.
    18. Pat Rapper's Delight posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:48 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    My favorite out-of-position story has to be Mike Lamb catching for the 2002 Rangers, including one start! The stats (7 innings, 1 PB, 3 WP, base stealers 3-0 against him) don't even begin to do it justice for how bad he looked.

    And if not Lamb, then any time Pete Incaviglia played in the field for the Rangers guaranteed "out-of-position" hilarity.
    19. Biff, highly-regarded young guy posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:49 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Once Kevin Millar was playing 3B for the Jays, and due to a shift, had to turn a double play. That was pretty hilarious (and as I recall he actually turned it)

    EDIT: Ah-ha found it! Sept 29, 2009, it was Ortiz batting which explains the shift (and the fact that Millar was able to throw him out).

    Wow, I don't even remember Millar ever playing for Toronto, let alone playing 3B, let alone playing 3B against the Red Sox.
    20. TVerik posted on September 13, 2012 at 10:57 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Gary Sheffield played an inning at third base for the Yankees, and IMR made a decent play and then a really bad one.
    21. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:00 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Gary Sheffield played an inning at third base for the Yankees, and IMR made a decent play and then a really bad one.

    Not as cool as Mattingly playing 2B and 3B as a lefty.
    22. TVerik posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:07 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Not as cool as Mattingly playing 2B and 3B as a lefty.


    Agreed, but much more hilarious.
    23. TerpNats posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:11 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I recall Mattingly playing third base (two games in Seattle in '85); when did he play second?
    24. Harveys Wallbangers  posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:19 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    gary sheffield began his career as a shortstop and made no good plays and many bad ones
    25. just plain joe posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:19 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Not as cool as Mattingly playing 2B and 3B as a lefty.


    For some unknown reason my OOTP league has Mike Jorgensen (who was left-handed all the way) rated as a second baseman, with a rating of 12 (out of 20). Maybe it's because in real life he hit like a middle infielder instead of the 1B-OF he really was. In any case he has been my starting second baseman for 2 or 3 years (we're currently playing the 1977 season) which allows me to use Keith Hernandez at 1B.
    26. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:22 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I recall Mattingly playing third base (two games in Seattle in '85); when did he play second?

    1983, only 0.3 innings.
    27. Crispix Attacks 2: Swag Airlines posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:26 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Once Kevin Millar was playing 3B for the Jays, and due to a shift, had to turn a double play. That was pretty hilarious (and as I recall he actually turned it)

    So that's why Kevin Millar had 50 dWAR that year.
    28. Uncle Willy posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:42 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Was Mattingly at 2B the resumption of the Pine Tar Game? IIRC, Ron Guidry played outfield in that game.
    29. esseff posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:44 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Cecil Fielder played seven games at 3B and two at 2B, albeit at a time when he was still under 300 pounds.

    gary sheffield began his career as a shortstop and made no good plays and many bad ones


    But . . . but ... he was just trying to get traded.

    When was the last time an outfielder had 3 errors in an inning?


    Willie Davis (a multiple Gold Glove winner) did it in the 1966 World Series.

    30. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:47 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Was Mattingly at 2B the resumption of the Pine Tar Game? IIRC, Ron Guidry played outfield in that game.

    Yes, it appears to be. Unless there was another suspended game against KC.
    31. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:58 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    If you guys want a good out-of-position story, there was a great one at Indy a couple of weeks ago. See here.

    Jose Diaz is the man.
    32. Harveys Wallbangers  posted on September 13, 2012 at 12:03 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    esseff

    gary waited until he got to third base before he put himself on the trade train

    but one of his justifications was that the brewers were racist as an organization because they put the white bill spiers at shortstop instead of gary.

    gary also accused robin yount and paul molitor of being racists because they nagged him to run hard all the time. i cannot make this stuff up.
    33. esseff posted on September 13, 2012 at 12:06 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I saw a game where Bob Brenly made 3 errors in an inning playing 3rd base for the Giants.


    You're waaay underselling this one, my friend.

    It was four errors, in the fourth inning of this game, which would end on Brenly's walk-off homer. It was his second homer of the game, in addition to a two-out game-tying single in the seventh.

    Depending on how such things are measured, it must represent the greatest divide ever between offensive and defensive value for one player in one game.


    34. AT-AT at bat@AT&T posted on September 13, 2012 at 05:33 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Not wanting to let all 7 fans in the stands down, I dutifully airmailed the throw home about 20 feet over the catchers head. Error #3.


    Shaving cream or Gatorade ? Both ?
    35. Drexl Spivey posted on September 13, 2012 at 05:59 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    gary also accused robin yount and paul molitor of being racists because they nagged him to run hard all the time. i cannot make this stuff up.


    Gary also got pissed off when veteran Brewer players hazed him as a rookie by making him wear a dress on an airplane. The veterans mistakenly thought that Gary wouldn't take the ritual personally.

    Some players are just militant by nature. Gary is one of them.
    36. John Northey posted on September 13, 2012 at 06:01 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I remember the various Fielder experiments. The Jays had Willie Upshaw at 1B, Fred McGriff as the DH, and couldn't find a spot for Fielder's bat. Then they moved their third baseman (Rance Mulliniks) to DH after Upshaw was traded leaving Fielder as a platoon DH still. Thus in spring the Jays kept trying Fielder in LF, 3B, wherever they could. It was quite bizarre to watch. Jimy Williams did go silly in this game though on May 2nd 1988 with Fielder and Kelly Gruber splitting time between 2B and 3B depending on the hitter. Fielder's line? 3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B.

    Gruber was involved in 2 double plays, no errors by the Jays that day, and the Jays lost despite all those moves.
    37. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) posted on September 13, 2012 at 06:04 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    When was the last time an outfielder had 3 errors in an inning?

    well there was this well-known game (Koufax's last)
    38. esseff posted on September 13, 2012 at 06:09 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I drink caffeine-free Diet Coke, jmac.
    39. Austin posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:21 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'd just like to say that this thread is awesome. Especially #3, 7, 11, 31, and 36.
    40. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) posted on September 13, 2012 at 11:30 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I drink caffeine-free Diet Coke, jmac.

    it's on the way
    41. PreservedFish posted on September 14, 2012 at 01:44 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    In 2004 the Sox started Doug Mientkiewicz at second base in September. His first play was a tough short hop that he converted for a tag and throw out 4-3 DP. Joe Castiglione on the radio went crazy.


    If Daniel Murphy can kind of play second, Mientkiewicz could definitely play second. His bat would have looked great there.
    42. zenbitz posted on September 14, 2012 at 02:28 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Aubrey Huff played 2nd this year for a couple innings. Blew the game when he covered the wrong base. Had to get anxiety therapy or something.

    43. Howie Menckel posted on September 14, 2012 at 07:16 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0


    Not only did Mattingly play second when Pine Tar Game resumed, Guidry played CF. Billy Martin's way of expressing his respect for the Commissioner's office.

    http://www.travel-watch.com/pinetargame.htm

    "To show their rage and annoyance at the whole turn of events, the Yankees for the final out of the top of the ninth played pitcher Ron Guidry in centerfield and outfielder Don Mattingly (a lefthander) at second base. Guidry played center field because the Yankees had traded away Jerry Mumphrey, who had come into the game for defensive purposes. New York's George Frazier struck out McRae for the third out. In the bottom of the ninth Royals' reliever Dan Quisenberry was able to retire the Yankees in order."

    44. AJM posted on September 14, 2012 at 07:34 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Aubrey Huff played 2nd this year for a couple innings. Blew the game when he covered the wrong base.

    I was going to mention this. He went to cover first instead of second on a DP ball...

    "It's just my natural instinct," he said. "My whole life, if the ball gets hit to my right, I'm going to first. That was my first move. I mean, I knew where I was, but that's just my natural instinct my whole career."
    45. JJ1986 posted on September 14, 2012 at 09:12 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    "My whole life" is odd phrasing for a guy who was a 3Bmen.
    46. DL from MN posted on September 14, 2012 at 09:40 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Mientkiewicz could definitely play second


    The Twins tried it in the minors and they didn't think he was good enough turning the pivot on the DP.
    47. AT-AT at bat@AT&T posted on September 14, 2012 at 04:05 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    everyone has their moments, even aubrey huff (and i´ll puff and i´ll reach first base) !
    yes, that was a quite remarkable moment !
    only other moment that beats huff or shall i say momentS ... every hunter pence AB !

    my prediction for the playoffs, if we make ´em ... scutaro for mvp !
    nuff said, play hard, make errors !
    48. PreservedFish posted on September 14, 2012 at 04:13 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Jimy Williams did go silly in this game though on May 2nd 1988 with Fielder and Kelly Gruber splitting time between 2B and 3B depending on the hitter. Fielder's line? 3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B-2B-3B.


    According to the box score, they switched before the leadoff hitter stepped in.
    49. Ron J2 posted on September 14, 2012 at 04:48 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I remember Bob Brenly saying (after he made 4 errors in an inning) something to the effect that it was lucky they didn't hit any more balls to him. Playing third (because it was a Giant tradition to have random right-handed throwers play third)

    Here's the Retrosheet summary of the inning:

    BRAVES 4TH: Horner reached on an error by Brenly [Horner to first]; Griffey singled to second [Horner to second]; Ramirez out on a sacrifice bunt (first unassisted) [Horner to third, Griffey to second]; Virgil was walked intentionally; Hubbard reached on an error by Brenly [Horner scored (unearned), Griffey scored (error by Brenly) (unearned), Virgil to third, Hubbard to second]; Puleo singled to left [Virgil scored (unearned), Hubbard scored (unearned)]; Moreno made an out to shortstop; Oberkfell singled to right [Puleo to second]; Murphy reached on
    an error by Brenly [Puleo to third, Oberkfell to second, Murphy to first]; Horner flied out to center; 4 R (0 ER), 3 H, 4 E, 3 LOB. Braves 4, Giants 0.
    50. esseff posted on September 14, 2012 at 04:59 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    The Brenly Game: Let's go the tape

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