Whosa meesa? Whosa yousa?

Well, it depends on how you frame the question.

I don't know if you ever read Carl Sagan's novel CONTACT, but there's a good exchange in that book about who should sit in the machine which is being built at the behest of the alien civilization (*)

At some point, two of the scientists working on the Machine project wonder about who should go in the machine, since it could be that they are sending Decathletes to meet aliens and it turns out the aliens wanted to meet chess players.

Buffkin certainly was not the being to match up straight-up with Baba Yaga, but he was book smart enough to devise a number of traps to catch Baba Yaga unawares (Baba Yaga's humongous ego didn't help her either. In fact, the whole Empire was built on a foundation which disregarded the potential of the small and weak, as was proven by the NY/Arab Fables fantastically well thought out decapitation plan of the Empire's homeworld).


(*) For those who never read the book or may have only seen the Jodie Foster movie, Earth astro physicists pick up a signal from an alien civilization which is in fact, a palimpset.

Deep within the signal are instructions for building a machine, whose purposes are unclear (there is some conjecture in the book about this machine being a potential Trojan Horse).

The machine has 5 chairs in the book, so presumably 5 humans are supposed to sit in it.

Even though (as I just found out), Elrond was only half-elven, wasn't he afforded the same strength of character that other elves had? Not to mention that Elrond wouldn't have been trying to take the ring; he'd have been trying to thrust the ring away.

The elves were not immune to the temptations of the ring. For example, when Frodo offered the ring to Galadriel, she was deeply tempted, and wound up refusing, because she feared that if she took it, she would wind up as, essentially, an evil, insanely powerful, world-dominating tyrant.

There's a reason why Gandalf wanted a hobbit to do a dirty work, and not an elf (or a man or a dwarf or even himself): He thought that only a hobbit, meek and mild and pleasant and unassuming, would have a chance of voluntarily giving up the power of the ring. An elf wouldn't.

But even that turned out to be wrong: Frodo got the ring most of the way there, sure, but when it came down to brass tacks, he refused to destroy the ring, instead choosing to keep it as his own; his Precious.

Only an accident then saved Middle Earth.

Buffkin certainly was not the being to match up straight-up with Baba Yaga, but he was book smart enough to devise a number of traps to catch Baba Yaga unawares (Baba Yaga's humongous ego didn't help her either. In fact, the whole Empire was built on a foundation which disregarded the potential of the small and weak, as was proven by the NY/Arab Fables fantastically well thought out decapitation plan of the Empire's homeworld).

What is this stuff from? I have no idea at all what you are talking about in 105, but it sounds like my kind of nonsense.

Fables, a comic book series published by Vertigo, written by Bill Willingham and drawn (mostly) by Mark Buckingham.

The book starts off a little bit slowly (the first story arch was a bit lackluster), gets better in its second arch (Animal Farm) and REALLY BLASTS OFF from its third arch on (Storybook love).

The first 75 issues of the series are thematically one large, magnificent story.

The book is about to hit issue 98 in two weeks, and though it has probably meandered more than it should have since issue 75, I think that in retrospect (when read in TPB format), those issues will be much appreciated (well, except for the great fables crossover).

The Buffkin - Baba Yaga references are from what will be collected as Witches (TPB 14). The Frau T - Baba Yaga fight reference goes all the way back to TPB 4 (March of the Wooden Soldiers)

Buffkin certainly was not the being to match up straight-up with Baba Yaga, but he was book smart enough to devise a number of traps to catch Baba Yaga unawares

He's not even smart enough to refrain from throwing his own poop, this was a setup job from the beginning.

lst's all chip in and buy. could be a cool hangout for BTF NY city meetups ..

i've got 50!

I've read the books, and I read The Silmarillion nearly 30 years ago, but I have no idea what this "meet strength with strength" business is about. I don't merely mean that I don't remember it, I mean that I don't understand the concept. Could someone explain?

I have searched but I can't find the reference. Maybe I made it up, and because it's plausible it has evolved into some sort of truth.

What I mean is, Gandalf does use his power against other supernatural creatures, the Nazgul, the Balrog, Sauruman himself, but against Orcs and evil men he merely wields his sword. Gandalf probably had the power to win the Battle of Helms Deep singlehandedly, but instead he was a mere messenger sent to fetch the Cavalry.

Ah. Well, I do have some memory that the Istari were supposed to offer advice and counsel to elves & men, but not compel them to do their bidding. But I'm pretty sure that only applied to elves & men. Maybe Dwarves and Hobbits, too, I guess, though I don't remember that. 80 percent certain it didn't apply to their dealings with orcs and trolls and similar nasties, and it obviously didn't apply to confrontations with Balrogs & jackass power-mad Istari.

In any case, I'm pretty sure it was an instruction rather than an actual limitation. (Which is why Saruman was able to build an army -- and, for that matter, why Gandalf was able to transition from "adviser" to "leader" throughout the trilogy.) Which is to say, Gandalf *could* have just killed Denethor and Theoden and assumed command of their armies; he just wasn't *supposed* to. (Not to mention that doing so would have been self-defeating, given that he was trying to help the "free people of Middle Earth" remain free.)

EDIT: Meant to say also: Thanks for the explanation.

In any case, I'm pretty sure it was an instruction rather than an actual limitation. (Which is why Saruman was able to build an army -- and, for that matter, why Gandalf was able to transition from "adviser" to "leader" throughout the trilogy.)

But that's precisely why Saruman had to build an army. Otherwise he could just ride to Edoras, sweep away all who stood in his way with his staff, and set himself up as king. Saruman built and army, Gandalf rallied armies, but neither used their powers directly, except against each other or other supernatural beings.

I don't remember the instruction being that they couldn't use "their powers," but rather that their role was to advise rather than coerce or lead. To vastly different degrees, both Saruman and Gandalf did more than advise at various times. If my memory about the instruction is correct*, there's no doubt that Saruman's behavior ran seriously afoul of it. (Gandalf's late-story leadership -- rather than mere rallying -- of armies is probably little more than jaywalking.)

It's probably futile to debate a passage neither of us seems to remember clearly, but I think the prohibition was neither as broad nor as binding as you suggest. So why didn't they just "magic away" any problem they were faced with? Probably because** it wouldn't have made for a very good book, just as nobody would be talking about the books nearly a century later if Gandalf had just had his eagle buddies fly Frodo from his front door to Mount Doom. Even a narrative as densely and thoroughly crafted as LOTR involves some things that don't seem to make sense; you just have to accept them. I think this is one of them, and explanations that the Istari "couldn't" do certain things are just rationalizations for things that don't seem to make sense, not actual limitations established in the text.

But it's totally possible that you're right and I'm wrong. I don't remember broad and binding prohibitions, but I always struggled to stay focused on the supporting texts, and may have missed something.


* Big "if."

** Or because Gandalf/Saruman just weren't powerful enough to wipe out 5,000 adversaries before one of them put an arrow in his neck, which is totally plausible. Wasn't Gandalf exhausted in Moria after the confrontation with orcs in the cave? I don't tend to assume he could defeat an entire army by himself; not while inhabiting a physical body that could be killed.

Gandalf does use his power against other supernatural creatures, the Nazgul, the Balrog, Sauruman himself, but against Orcs and evil men he merely wields his sword.

Gandalf used magic against the goblins of the Misty Mountains. Killed several of them with "a terrific flash like lightning".

He also used magic to blind his (non-supernatural) enemies at, I think, the Battle of Hornburg, but it's possible that that was only in the movie - I don't remember if it was in the book or not. But the "killed goblins with lightning" one definitely is in the book.

Or because Gandalf/Saruman just weren't powerful enough to wipe out 5,000 adversaries before one of them put an arrow in his neck, which is totally plausible. Wasn't Gandalf exhausted in Moria after the confrontation with orcs in the cave? I don't tend to assume he could defeat an entire army by himself; not while inhabiting a physical body that could be killed.

Along these lines, after the Battle of the Five Armies, he has one of his arms in a sling.

Wasn't Gandalf exhausted in Moria after the confrontation with orcs in the cave?

That was after his first confrontation with the Balrog, when he tried to put a shutting spell on a door, the Balrog placed a counter spell, and the door shattered, leaving Gandalf spent.

I don't tend to assume he could defeat an entire army by himself; not while inhabiting a physical body that could be killed.

Well, a guy operating a machine gun can be killed also, but if well protected from enemy fire, he can wipe out a whole hell of a lot of them. I'm picturing an unfettered Gandalf sweeping away hordes of orcs with his staff while perched high atop a tower.

That was after his first confrontation with the Balrog, when he tried to put a shutting spell on a door, the Balrog placed a counter spell, and the door shattered, leaving Gandalf spent.

Wow. Was that the Balrog? I thought it was a bunch of orcs and a troll.

I just re-skimmed, and though I think it's ambiguous, it does seem likely that it's the Balrog. (And various wiki pages & the like seem to think it is.) Wow. I do see why I didn't interpret it that way on my initial read, and that presumably guided my interpretation on subsequent reads, but I have little faith in that interpretation now.

Wow. Was that the Balrog? I thought it was a bunch of orcs and a troll.

From FOTR:

" Suddenly from the top of the stair there was a flash of white light...Well well, that's over, said the wizard, struggling to his feet. I have done all I could, but I met my match and was nearly destroyed...You will have to go on without light for a while, I am rather shaken."

Later

"What happened way up there at the door? (Gimli) asked. Did you meet the beater of the drums?

"I do not know, but I found myself faced by something I have not met before...What it was I cannot guess, but I have never met such a challenge. The counter spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant, the door left my command and began to open. I had to speak a word of command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst into pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside and I was thrown backwards down the stairs."

I just re-skimmed, and though I think it's ambiguous, it does seem likely that it's the Balrog.

It's not ambiguous at all. Something I didn't quote was that Gandalf related that prior to the confrontation, he heard the orcs go silent and utter the word gash, which means fire. So, you have references to fire and shadow, and some being who's kung fu is just as good as Gandalf's. What else could it be?

I grew up in southeastern Rockland County, NY.
Northern Bergen County, NJ people would often expect me to get much more snow than them - since I lived so far north in "upstate NY."

Except that they lived further to the north than I did.

NJ does not have a flat, level head, a la some northern Plains states.
It top slopes diagonally.
Greenwood Lake is a bit west, so it's also further north. Still not really upstate, but not as bad an example, at least.

This thread is so confusing

When I was a kid I thought Star Wars got it right and Star Trek got it wrong in that Star Wars had more of a aircraft carrier mentality while Star Trek had a battleship mentality. But then as I got older I realized that the fighters are pretty much useless in the Imperial galaxy.

Yeah they're all on the water right? The equivalent in navies would be little gunboats you send out from the main ships.