Since we're discussing McCarver and Gibson, here is my favorite quote, when Gibson shooed McCarver away when he tried to make a mound visit:

"The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it."

How old is Harper now, 19? If McCarver can't appreciate a 19 year old playing Major League Baseball (to the tune of a 131 OPS+) who goes all out, and demonstrates some enthusiasm, the old fart should be euthanized.

I finally caught up with "Calico Joe"; read it in one sitting (about 180 short pages). It's only OK, but there was one bit I liked: when Joe is almost hit with a pitch one day, he waits until the pitcher releases the ball gain...then immediately charges the mound. Has anyone ever actually done this? I mean, when you think about it, it's the perfect way to do it: you charge the mound at the exact moment when the pitcher/catcher/umpire aren't expecting it.

Immediately on release? I doubt it. But if I had to select the player of my lifetime I'd consider most likely, I go Gary Sheffield.

You aren't seriously comparing Don Zimmer to either a hulking slugger or Sonny Liston, are you?

On that one day, Zimmer made the mistake of not leading with the steel plate in his head. He's more machine than man.

On the other hand, Ed Farmer put two Royals on the DL in the same game and he did have a rep.

What was the rep based on other than putting two Royals on the DL in the same game? It it couldn't have been based on how often Farmer hit guys.

Farmer had 12 HBPs in his big league career. To put that in rate terms, he did so at a much lower frequency than noted beanballer Greg Maddux.

No they'd just say he was another uppity ****** that was ruining baseball.

Ok, they wouldn't *say that*.

Well, maybe in Boston.

You aren't seriously comparing Don Zimmer to either a hulking slugger or Sonny Liston, are you?

The world would have been a better place if Zimmer had the foresight to coat his hands with heat salve and go straight for Pedro's beady little eyes.

Since we're discussing McCarver and Gibson, here is my favorite quote, when Gibson shooed McCarver away when he tried to make a mound visit:

"The only thing you know about pitching is you can't hit it."

Which matches almost word-for-word what another HoF pitcher said about his HoF manager:

"The only thing Earl knows about big-league pitching is that he couldn't hit it."

It'd be great if Gibson came out today and said McCarver still doesn't know anything about pitching.

There goes Harper again! Back-to-back home runs after another rookie smacked one to open the game against the Braves. In fact, the very next PITCH after Lombardozzi hit his HR. Who does this kid think he is, Tim McCarver???

O! the temerity!

This is why baseball gradually loses all its most colorful players. Do anything unconventional and everybody starts sniping.

It also doesn't help if, like Lastings Milledge, they really, really suck.

And now thrown out twice in two days going for that extra base. Argh...

Harper's .922 OPS now leads all MLB rookies, bridled or unbridled.

Harper's .922 OPS now leads all MLB rookies, bridled or unbridled.

Harper's OPS+ was 135 going into today's game, but since his OPS shot up from .873 to .922, it's safe to say that his OPS+ has also gone up in the past 24 hours.

A few other rookie OPS+ numbers for players who came up at 20 or younger:

Ty Cobb (age 18) 86, and 132 at age 19
Mel Ott (age 17) 120, and 139 at age 19
Jimmie Foxx (age 17) 255 in 9 AB, and 130 at age 19)
Ted Williams (age 20) 160
Willie Mays (age 20) 120
Mickey Mantle (age 19) 117
Hank Aaron (age 20) 104
Ken Griffey Jr. (age 19) 108
Alex Rodriguez (age 18) 16, and 72 at age 19 and 161 at age 20

Tim McCarver (age 17) 16, and 7 at age 18, and 47 at age 19

Tim McCarver (age 17) 16, and 7 at age 18, and 47 at age 19

Sure, but his intangibles were a poem.

A postscript to the game linked to in No. 32:

Gibson was ejected in the fourth with a 5-1 (soon to become 7-1) lead -- i.e., a game he figured to win. He would finish the '64 season with 19 wins. The ejection cost him his first 20-win season.

Al Kaline (age 18) 78 in 28 AB, 80 at age 19, 162 at age 20

I'm not sure why everyone uses Gibson as the defacto hit-batsman pitcher.

He plunked 102 batters out of the over 16000 he face. He hit one out of every 158 batters he faced.

If you want to reference a pitcher who hit batters (since 1950), then use Jim Bunning (every 98 batters faced), or Don Drysdale (every 92 batters faced), or even Jamey Wright (every 57 batters faced..the plunkiest pitcher ever (in a per batter faced measurement)).

Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Randy Johnson...there are lots of other pitchers that hit batters more frequently than Bob Gibson.

The point isn't the sheer amount of HBPs. It is the potency of the threat of the HBP. If you look at what McCarver said, it is actually the lack of the HBP that is the evidence that the hitter fears the pitcher properly. In the real world, Fielder showed off, and got hit in retaliation. But if Gibson was on the mound, he wouldn't have showed off in the first place, so no HBP necessary.

Maybe Gibson didn't really need to hit people very often because he scared the #### out of everyone, and nobody ever showed him up.

You want a hard throwing guy who loved to hit batters? Kerry Wood. 1 out of every 59 battesr got plunked by one of his pitches.

If you look at what McCarver said, it is actually the lack of the HBP that is the evidence that the hitter fears the pitcher properly

So by not hitting batters, he made them worried about being hit?

Is that similar to Ichiro not hitting home runs, he puts the fear of home runs in the mind of pitchers?

Maybe Gibson didn't really need to hit people very often because he scared the #### out of everyone, and nobody ever showed him up.

So what would have happened if Jim Rice faced Bob Gibson?
Heart attacks for everyone viewing the at-bat?

There were probably (no way to really tell unless you go over a lot of vintage TV footage) more brush-backs and chin music in the 60s than today, even with the fewer HBP. Consider that hitters stand much closer to the plate these days and wear that body armor that allows them to wait that extra split-second before getting out of the way. Whereas back in the day, hitters had to be more ready to hit the dirt. You see hitters bailing out much less frequently these days.

Daniel Bard is old school.

Has anyone ever actually done this? I mean, when you think about it, it's the perfect way to do it: you charge the mound at the exact moment when the pitcher/catcher/umpire aren't expecting it.

Best I've heard of is Al Cowens vs Ed Farmer. Farmer had broken Cowens' jaw (and put Frank White on the DL in the same game). Cowens waited until he had healed fully and then when Farmer got Cowens to ground out to short, Cowens headed to the mound. The perfect time since everybody on the defensive team has a job to do and nobody can come to the pitchers aid immediately.

The Chicago police filed an assault charge, but Farmer refused to press charges (initially he had said that he would) provided Cowens shook his hand.

Before the mid-50s generally speaking if a batter and pitcher wanted to fight, generally speaking nobody interfered. The last time I heard of teammates not getting involved was Joe Adcock/Ruben Gomez. Story goes that Adcock took exception to the way Gomez had been pitching him and headed out to the mound. Gomez wanted no part of Adcock and Adcock chased Gomez all over the park (with both sets of teammates laughing). Supposedly Gomez went back to the clubhouse and came back with a knife, ready for round two. Again, the story is that Willie Mays talked Gomez into giving up the knife. No idea how much of the story is true, but I can't think of a batter/pitcher fight since then where nobody got involved.

#69 Hank Aaron's name has come up in the thread. He said the only pitcher that truly worried him was Stan Williams. Williams supposedly kept a notebook of players he felt he owed one to. He's also the only pitcher who had a rep for the one pitch intentional walk (no idea if he actually used a HBP for an IBB but that was his rep) and unlike the other tough guys of the day his rep was that he genuinely didn't care if he hurt players with his beanballs.

So what would have happened if Jim Rice faced Bob Gibson?

Frank Robinson was known for a number of things when it came to attempts to intimidate him. If you knocked him down he'd make a show of digging in in the precise same spot. If you hit him he'd take first base and then try to plant the second-baseman on the left field fence. Gene Mauch came to the conclusion that it was a waste of time trying to intimidate Robinson -- just made him mad(der -- he was pretty intense at the best of time) Eventually Mauch forbade his pitchers from throwing above the waist inside on Robinson.

Anyhow, Gibson faced Robinson 96 times. Hit him only once but held him to a .229/.316/.410 line. The HBP doesn't seem to have been intentional -- at least it didn't make any particular game sense. Top of the 3rd, 2 out, bases empty. scored tied (4-4, IOW Gibson had a rough start). Robinson had singled and scored in his previous PA. (Robinson had an opportunity for a hard slide following the HBP since Coleman followed with an infield single. Probably did slide hard.)