Ignore is dumb. That is all.

Tripon is wise. And yet I must confess to having 2 people on ignore; I just don't have the fortitude to even read what they type.

I have people on my ignore list, but it doesn't work when the site logs me out, so it's not all that efficient.

There's no point to ignore to me. I remember an IRC chat for a RPing channel when two people who hated each other had each other on ignore. They were both in the same game and forgot to take it off, and the whole session consisted of the two yelling at each other, not seeing it, and imagining vile things were being 'said' behind their backs. Meanwhile, the other people were telling them to ####### it ignore off. Eventually, the session was canceled.

Anyway, even if you dislike a person, or a viewpoint, its important to still see it, if only because you should know what a person is saying.

Is hating pants considered a hobby?


Do you devote 20+ hours a week to actively hating pants?

Do you make a parlor game out of it?

Sadly from what I have heard it is past being a hobby and become an obsession. I heard it even cost him his job at Levi.

Given your user name, you're not exactly an unbiased observer, sir.

If anyone out there is getting millions of dollars for playing Monopoly or Final Fantasy or whatever, my hat's off to him/her/them.

I hear that if you offer to move your operation to Rhode Island, you might get those millions.

Ignore is dumb. That is all.

Not nearly as dumb as bragging about it.

I hear that if you offer to move your operation to Rhode Island, you might get those millions.

You know who's based in Rhode Island? Hasbro! So in fact, someone in Rhode Island is doing pretty well off of Monopoly.

Being obsessed with video games strikes me as less silly than, say, being obsessed with collecting gum wrappers.

But that's just subjective. Who cares? And why gum wrappers and not stamps or comics or coins or lolcats or bird watching or trainspotting? They are all pretty dang silly when you think about it.

As for sex - I think there is a level that goes beyond the norm here. Like if you spend ~10 hours/week trawling date sites, craiglists and meeting people... I think that borders on an obsessive hobby. But hey, I don't judge!

I haven't been actively following this particular video game discussion. I've made my opinions known on the subject in quite a few of these threads over the past few weeks. I do have one comment though:

The intent of the video game producer is to entertain the participating consumer, which differs from the intent of movie and TV show creators. Up and The Simpsons bear a merely superficial resemblance to video games.

Maybe in the 80s and up till the mid 90s, games only entertained the person holding the input device. Starting in the PSone generation, and increasing in magnitude and frequency ever since, certain games have evolved to the point where they can be a pseudo-movie for an audience. I agree with Dan's #111, I've had just as strong, if not stronger, emotional investment and reaction to a game as I have a movie, but that can extend to the audience as well. My wife has watched me play a handful of games over the years, and she'll admit that watching Resident Evil 4, Bioshock, or Uncharted 2 were just as rewarding and engaging as watching a quality movie. I have only played a few hours of the PSone Final Fantasy series, but I really enjoyed watching the narrative unfold while other people played. I think Silent Hill games can be better enjoyed as a spectator, adds to the "weak and not in control of the situation" theme. This obviously doesn't work for all games. Watching someone play Fallout 3 or the Elder Scrolls series is like pulling teeth, those are clearly solo endeavors.

Games have a lot more and different tools available for establishing a scene, defining characters, delivering narrative, & entertaining an audience. Studios have become so good at this, they are able to captivate non-participating audience members.

In so many words. Whereas my position is that someone (a lot of someones, actually; certainly, CrosbyBird is not alone in this instance) is driven by some sort of compulsion to intellectualize a particular interest of his.

Wow, this came back. And that was my quote about the influence of videogames.

Think of television and the role it plays in American society, and tell me if you could say that it is possible to understand American culture without a passing familiarity of television. I'm not saying you have to own a TV or even watch TV (although it's hard to completely escape it; most bars and many restaurants have televisions), mind you. Just know something about it.

Videogames are currently an industry that is a bit more than a third of the size of television. They're literally that much a part of our culture. Not just that, but the medium itself allows artists to create and deliver works in a way that is entirely unique.

It's not about wanting to intellectualize my hobby. I love card games and board games, but I would not say that someone who didn't understand card games or Monopoly can't truly understand American culture. It's about recognizing a cultural force for what it is. I don't think that's subjective.

Because the medium is in its infancy, and the technology has been a significant limitation, we've barely scratched the surface of what video games can continue to do to transform our culture. It is a valid art form, even if that isn't the primary goal for many of the current users and developers.

Excuse me while I back slooooooowly away.

Go faster.

If anyone out there is getting millions of dollars for playing Monopoly or Final Fantasy or whatever, my hat's off to him/her/them.

This guy makes a good living playing Starcraft (and I suspect a few other top Starcraft players make a similar amount.) He's not really comparable to other sport stars in terms of earning potential, but he's comparable to a top chess player. Obviously poker players can make a good living as well.

Many video games don't really translate well to a competitive earning environment (for example, the only Final Fantasies that one could reasonably make a living off of are the MMO's). Professional leagues are more generally fighting games (Street Fighter/Tekken/maybe Brawl) and realtime strategy (Starcraft).

E-sports is hilarious. As for professional leagues, there's also the Madden series, which at one point ESPN was trying to promote.

What Crosby said.

Video games are one of modern culture's methods of storytelling. At its best, a well-written video game has the ability to convey ideas and leave open questions for the player to think about and do it on a very personal level. Yes, there are a lot of crappy video games, but there are also a lot of crappy films, crappy novels, crappy art, and crappy music out there. Even an artist as transcendent as Mozart has a lot of lesser works that are bland and uninteresting (see Mozart's endless sets of generic minuets and contredanses, that were essentially marketed as background music).

Videogames are currently an industry that is a bit more than a third of the size of television. They're literally that much a part of our culture. Not just that, but the medium itself allows artists to create and deliver works in a way that is entirely unique.

Porn is a massive industry as well (I think I read somewhere recently that the revenue from porn dwarfs that of the mainstream movie industry, though I could be wrong - but either way the point remains), but nobody speaks of porn in polite conversation, and nobody would claim that one couldn't understand American culture without it.

Video games are something that some people find cool. They might even be cool. Yay. But let's not overstate it. And it seems that a relatively small subset of the population is interested in this.

...but nobody speaks of porn in polite conversation, and nobody would claim that one couldn't understand American culture without it.

- raises hand -

People who have a grasp of things like porn, videogames, and domesticated animals have a greater knowledge and understanding of American culture - and the human race - than those who simply ignore them. And far greater than those who think they are not worth discussing at all.

Comic books are one of modern culture's methods of storytelling. At its best, a well-written comic book has the ability to convey ideas and leave open questions for the reader to think about and do it on a very personal level. Yes, there are a lot of crappy comic books, but there are also a lot of crappy films, crappy novels, crappy art, and crappy music out there. Even an artist as transcendent as Mozart has a lot of lesser works that are bland and uninteresting (see Mozart's endless sets of generic minuets and contredanses, that were essentially marketed as background music).

People who have a grasp of things like porn, comic books, and domesticated animals have a greater knowledge and understanding of American culture - and the human race - than those who simply ignore them. And far greater than those who think they are not worth discussing at all.

Dear everyone --

Please present your bona-fides in this context (Lassus certainly has them, IIRC); otherwise, please admit that you're seriously unacquainted with a vital component of modern American culture & have no business pontificating on who else does or doesn't meet that threshold.

(No, I'm not being particularly serious here. As I've noted elsewhere, as of about 8 years ago I'd cracked the covers of probably fewer than a dozen comics in the preceding 25 years.)

Regards,

Me

I haven't been paying much attention to this debate, but I'd say that video games could easily end up as large a part of American culture as comic books were. (Probably rather closer than I realize to that already, but I absolutely don't think it's there yet.) The one thing that is against this happening is that it seems as if the advances in media and technology happen so fast now that nothing is able to become as firmly entrenched as comics were in their rather long heyday.

People who have a grasp of things like porn, videogames, and domesticated animals have a greater knowledge and understanding of American culture - and the human race - than those who simply ignore them. And far greater than those who think they are not worth discussing at all.

American pulp culture. That's essentially what porn, video games, and comic books are.(*) Some would put things like detective novels in this category, but a (correct) consensus has developed that the best of the genre transcend pulp.

(*) Pro wrestling fits rather neatly into this category.

I've read through this thread and I'm a bit puzzled. Is there a dispute that video games are not a huge part of American culture in the 2000s? That seems obvious to me and I don't play video games in any serious way (unless Angry Birds while sitting on the crapper counts).

Porn is a massive industry as well (I think I read somewhere recently that the revenue from porn dwarfs that of the mainstream movie industry, though I could be wrong - but either way the point remains), but nobody speaks of porn in polite conversation, and nobody would claim that one couldn't understand American culture without it.

I would absolutely say that you can't understand American culture without having a basic understanding of porn.

Remember, I'm not saying that you have to consume porn or know specific details about individual movies or magazines or stars. But a person who has never heard of, say, Playboy? Or doesn't know that people can buy magazines or films, or download porn on the internet? That person might as well be living in a stone hut on top of a mountain.

Please present your bona-fides in this context (Lassus certainly has them, IIRC); otherwise, please admit that you're seriously unacquainted with a vital component of modern American culture & have no business pontificating on who else does or doesn't meet that threshold.

You think you're being clever, but you're really just being a jackass. You keep trying to shift the sense of the position from "having a basic understanding" to "being a consumer of." Between this thread and the last one, enough people have clarified the precise position for you that a reasonable person would conclude that you're not interested in a good faith discussion.

American pulp culture

I realize this is some manner of hierarchy you're trying to posit; but as America has a very very very short history and culture comparatively to everywhere else, I would really disagree this makes any difference whatsoever.

You think you're being clever, but you're really just being a jackass. You keep trying to shift the sense of the position from "having a basic understanding" to "being a consumer of." Between this thread and the last one, enough people have clarified the precise position for you that a reasonable person would conclude that you're not interested in a good faith discussion.

In other words, you're woefully & astonishingly ignorant about comics & are understandably defensive about it.

Got it.

I haven't been paying much attention to this debate, but I'd say that video games could easily end up as large a part of American culture as comic books were. (Probably rather closer than I realize to that already, but I absolutely don't think it's there yet.)

Dunno; probably depends on the age group. Certainly, with the generation after mine, I'd say that video games, gaming culture, etc. are far more entrenched than comics are. (Offhand, I have no idea what the sales/rental/use/whatever figures for the more popular games are, but today's top-selling comics would've been cancelled posthaste when I was a kid; I strongy suspect that a newly released, really popular game sells more on the first day that the No. 1 comic sells in, hell, probably a year's worth of issues, though obviously there are numerous differences in the sales & industry model, to the point that an apples-vs.-oranges setup no doubt applies.) The fact that I'm not interested in the subject, while obviously a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge sociocultural failing of mine, doesn't change that.

Now, as to whether something will come along to affect tht development in light of

The one thing that is against this happening is that it seems as if the advances in media and technology happen so fast now that nothing is able to become as firmly entrenched as comics were in their rather long heyday.

is anybody's guess, I suppose.

Is there a dispute that video games are not a huge part of American culture in the 2000s?

Not by me. I'm just extremely dubious about how implicitly valid a ... for lack of a better term ... cultural signifier they are, & what lack of interest in them says about the observer who's characterized by such. Reality TV is also a huge part of American culture in the 2000s. I don't pay any attention to it, either. Which isn't to say that they occupy the same level by any means (I have infinitely more respect for any gamer on BTF than I do for anyone who can name a single Jersey Shore or American Idol or Dancing with the Stars participant), but merely to say that being "a huge part of American culture in the 2000s" is not in & of itself necessarily something wondrous & stimulating, IMHO.

Where I come from, huntin' & fishin' are a huge part of culture in the 2000s, & 1900s, & 1800s, etc. They're not for me. The end.

Whether that means that, despite having lived around 98 percent of my life in the South, I'm somehow profoundly disconnected from the culture that I grew up & continue to exist in, I'll leave for the CrosbyBirds of the world to decide.

Some would put things like detective novels in this category, but a (correct) consensus has developed that the best of the genre transcend pulp.

If you don't think this same thing will happen for video games (as it already has for "graphic novels," which are rampant in the English department where I currently work) you're kidding yourself. I'd already call something like EarthBound, a game that's just made for some pretentious jackass to apply auteur theory to, art in the same way a good movie is art.

Porn is a red herring in this discussion; it's a genre of TV show or movie (or book or video game) with a very particular aim, not a separate medium. So is "pulp," really. "Pulp" and "video game" aren't in the same set of classifications—it's like saying a pulp novel is different from a book. There are pulp video games and there are video games and there are video games that strive toward the same things art has always strived for in every popular medium.

You can say they aren't a great medium for transmitting art—and I'd agree with you, much as I love EarthBound, inasmuch as a lot of recent games owe too much to movies and too little to the act of playing a game—but to say that they are definitionally "pulp" is nonsensical, and should be setting off the alarm in your wrong-side-of-history-ometer given how identical it is to the claims people made about the novel, and film, and popular music, and every other cultural medium that's been invented in the last 500 years.

In other words, you're woefully & astonishingly ignorant about comics & are understandably defensive about it.

It happens to be the case that I know quite a bit about comic books.

I'd be similarly skeptical of how much a person who has never heard of Superman or Batman is in touch with mainstream American culture.

....The fact that I'm not interested in the subject, while obviously a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuge sociocultural failing of mine, doesn't change that.

I wouldn't call it a failing so much as a condition that distances you from understanding a good deal of American culture. Not enjoying video games doesn't make someone some sort of terrible human being. Not knowing some basic information about video games and their significant influence on society will make a person a bit culturally deficient.

Not knowing some basic information about video games and their significant influence on society will make a person a bit culturally deficient.

In which case I again plead guilty. The basic info I have probably doesn't extend much beyond "they exist." (I wouldn't, for instance, have any real clue of what an X-Box is if you put one here on my desk, unless it was clearly labeled.) Oh, well. There's already too much info rattling around in my head; if I were to try to cram expanded knowledge of this particular subject in there, I'd probably no longer have room for, I dunno, Matter Eater Lad's real name.