BBTF.org/m/basketball : OT: NBA basketball July Thread 2012

Wednesday, May 01, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - May 2013

(www.baseballthinkfactory.org)

posted 3 weeks ago by Athletic Supporter gangnam style to basketball, nba, off-topic | 937 comment(s)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about straight NBA players, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: gay NBA players and craft beer.

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 1 of 50 pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 > Last ›

1. Monty posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:06 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Edgy!

2. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:34 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Reponding to Jimmy from June thread: yeah, I don't really see why Williams plays in BKN unless Howard is there with him. Otherwise, seems like he tries Dallas. Good org willing to spend, Nowitzki can still play, conference is deeper but James is not in it.

3. Bruce Markusen posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:45 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The Nets can offer him more money under NBA rules. Also, the Nets have a much younger team than the Mavs, who may be past their window of title contention. Depending on what happens with power forward and two-guard slots, a lineup with Howard, Wallace, and Williams is likely a playoff team.

4. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:49 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

a lineup with Howard, Wallace, and Williams is likely a playoff team

.

__

Sure, but the Nets are talking about closing a deal for Joe Johnson, who has four years and over 90M on his deal. That is the headline story at ESPN NBA right now. That is why we are having this discussion.

Chris Broussard tweeted that of Nets trade for Johnson, they are "out of the running" for Howard.

5. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

RT @chadfordinsider: With Hawks-Nets deal on verge … waiting for Dwight Howard to increase # of teams on his list in 3, 2, 1

6. Bruce Markusen posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:53 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Still, a team with Lopez at center, Wallace at SF, and Williams and Johnson in the backcourt is potentially a playoff team. And then there's the money. Always the money. The Nets can offer Williams $25 more than the Mavs.

7. Tripon posted on July 02, 2012 at 06:54 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Williams' is 28. He's not waiting for another youth's movement.

8. Der_K posted on July 02, 2012 at 07:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

crosspost w/ june:

DeShawn Stevenson sign-and-trade as part of Nets-Hawks Joe Johnson swap is 3 years, $6.9 M. Only 1st year ($2.3M) guaranteed.

Exactly what I wanted to hear - thanks! Sign and trade deals have to be at least 3 years - the other two are a technicality / we're paying him extra in year 1 to do this for us.

So... am I delusional or are we now potentially a player for Howard next year? He's from Atlanta, is friends w/ Morrow (we'll have his bird rights) and Josh Smith (same, if we don't trade him first). In that pie in the sky scenario: Dwight + Horford + Smith? + some two guard who can hit threes + Teague ... interesting. Granted, there's a lot of ifs in this notion.

Oh, we also swapped Marvin Williams for Devin Harris (one year left in his deal).

9. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle posted on July 02, 2012 at 07:29 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think it is solid. They may get as high as 4-5 in the East. Wallace will likely crater since he has limited skills outside of his dissipating athleticism. Lopez remains a question mark due to health, rebounding, and defense (probably in that order). They are also pretty thin up front for a team without dependable starters.

So, basically the Nets just traded to become the Hawks, and the Hawks just traded to get cap room and a lottery pick in 2013?

10. andrewberg posted on July 02, 2012 at 07:32 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh, we also swapped Marvin Williams for Devin Harris (one year left in his deal).

Harris has played like crap recently, but Harris at his best is a lot better than Marvin at his best.

11. Tripon posted on July 02, 2012 at 07:39 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

So Billy King traded for the guy who was his big time mistake with the Hawks.

12. JJ1986 posted on July 02, 2012 at 07:54 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

So... am I delusional or are we now potentially a player for Howard next year? He's from Atlanta, is friends w/ Morrow (we'll have his bird rights) and Josh Smith (same, if we don't trade him first). In that pie in the sky scenario: Dwight + Horford + Smith? + some two guard who can hit threes + Teague ... interesting. Granted, there's a lot of ifs in this notion.

What if they trade Horford for Howard now? Would they then have enough cap room next year to add Paul to Smith + Howard.

13. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:03 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

What if they trade Horford for Howard now? Would they then have enough cap room next year to add Paul to Smith + Howard.

Would Paul/Smith/Howard be notably better than Teague/Smith/Horford/Howard?

14. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The Nets can offer Williams $25 more than the Mavs.

Sure, and and with JJ they can offer Howard $0. Maybe Williams takes the money and plays on a team that will likely be locked into the 5th seed or so. And maybe he doesn't.

DK-

Howard is from Atlanta, so that may be exactly what Ferry is trying to do.

15. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:29 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

.

Would Paul/Smith/Howard be notably better than Teague/Smith/Horford/Howard?

Well, depending on who else you get, but yes. Paul is an enormous boon to an offense.

16. King Mekong posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:35 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think williams/johnson/wallace/humphries/lopez is more than a 4-5, I think they become the favorite for the two seed next year, and perhaps even going forward depending on what happens with D-Rose. I don't think it's enough to beat the heat full force, but on paper they look better than that core with the Pistons who won a title and lost to the spurs. (Though of course that's on paper, and I've got little idea how they'd be on defense, though Avery Johnson is a defensive minded coach...)

17. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:40 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Johnson and GWallace are both over 30; Lopez has injury issues and is slow anyway. Humphries is just OK. The 04-05 Pistons had one of the great defensive teams of all time, with Rasheed, Ben and Prince. So, I'm not seeing it.

18. King Mekong posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:46 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Johnson is 31, and Wallace is 29; they have a recent history of being above average players. Johnson is a bad contract and not likely to get better, but I don't think he's likely to fall off a cliff the next year or even really do anything other than be roughly the same player playing with a much better point guard and likely a more inventive offense. I'm higher than most on Lopez, even though he was injured this year with a foot injury. I think if they sign that euro player and keep humphries, along with Marshon Brooks they have the inside track on the 2 seed.

19. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 08:50 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

That is probably how Billy King sees it as well, but I think he's wrong. Also, Williams may decide he would like Dallas better. And that group has very little flexibility going forward.

Wallace turns 30 in three weeks; I was a year off on him. But the Nets will be paying those guys big money when they are 32-33-34 years old (counting DWill if he stays).

20. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:06 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

But you may be right; we will see.

21. King Mekong posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:08 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Agreed, definitely not the best plan going forward, unless they keep Williams. Neither was trading the #6 for Gerald Wallace, unless they keep Williams. I think if they get Williams this would all be worth it (because I think that would make them a contender) (assuming these decisions are what sold him) if not then they relegated themselves to garbage bin for at least 5 years. I think that they will get Williams, because otherwise this whole chain of events is insane.

On a different note, any chance they can get Howard for Joe Johnson?

22. Der_K posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:10 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

If Atlanta wanted to acquire Howard now (and Howard was interested), they could make a reasonable offer. However, if they're willing to risk waiting a year... they can build a much better team by not getting Howard through a S/T - if Howard's willing. And, honestly, I think more superduperstars should be willing to do that - it leaves their new club in a significantly better position (though it hurts both their old one and their pocketbook). IIRC, I thought that the new CBA made that a more attractive proposition to the top class of stars.

tripon: It was Billy Knight, not Billy King who used to run the Hawks.

I've seen some criticism of ATL picking up Harris, saying 'they don't need two point guards!'. This:
1) misses the point of the deal
2) ignores that Harris might be the better player
3) also is predicated on ATL not playing both Harris and Teague at the same time, which I think could work (relative to other likely options).

That NJ roster does not look to be particularly good defensively.

23. Zipperholes posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

You have to assume the Nets offered the Magic at least the same package that they're giving the Hawks and were rejected, right? So it would be strange for the Magic to prefer Johnson to that.

24. GregD posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:21 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think williams/johnson/wallace/humphries/lopez is more than a 4-5, I think they become the favorite for the two seed next year, and perhaps even going forward depending on what happens with D-Rose. I don't think it's enough to beat the heat full force, but on paper they look better than that core with the Pistons who won a title and lost to the spurs. (Though of course that's on paper, and I've got little idea how they'd be on defense, though Avery Johnson is a defensive minded coach...)

Maybe I'm a glass half-empty person, but I can't see that as a 2 seed. Let us count the ways. Who on that team is a good defender? I guess Wallace has moments because of his atheleticism. Who's going to stretch the defense other than Johnson? Can you really win with one legitimate rebounder in Humphries? Can you actually sign Humphries and still have a bench at all? What if Johnson plays like 2010-2011 Johnson? What if Deron Williams wasn't tanking or bored last year but just slipping as he hit age 27? What will Wallace do as he loses athleticism, since that's the core of his game and he's 30 years old? Can you win with a power forward who's a .467 shooter and not much of a defender, even if he is a tough rebounder?

Every team has questions, but these seem like fundamental ones. You're not asking whether Johnson will fall off a cliff; you're asking whether he'll play like he did two years ago.

We'll see what shakes loose, but I would not want to bet them to be #2 in the East. That 4th/5th prediction seems sound if many (not all) things work out for them.

25. The District Attorney posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

if they're willing to risk waiting a year... they can build a much better team by not getting Howard through a S/T

You're of course not technically allowed to pre-arrange a signing with someone who is currently under contract to another team... and at this point, even if Howard did tell me he would be willing to sign with me next year, I certainly wouldn't believe him, as he appears to have gone utterly insane. If ATL can get him on a given day, they need to do that before he changes his mind the next day.

I am thoroughly unexcited by these Brooklyn moves because A) I find it hard to believe that they have enough information to have ruled out Howard and B) it feels more like an extension of the Devin Harris era than an actual new start. It's bland players, bad contracts, and I feel like losing in the first round in the NBA playoffs is basically nothing. I may be overly picky. (I'm sure we all agree that Deron leaving would render it a disaster, so I'm not even considering that.)

26. Spivey posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:28 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've got to agree with robinred. I don't know that I'd take the Nets at any position. The Gerald Wallace that averaged 2 steals and 2 blocks a game ain't walkin' through that door. Brook Lopez is a total wild card. Prime Sheed was able to cover Duncan one-on-one in the Finals, and prime Ben Wallace was able to guard Shaq pretty admirably.

27. King Mekong posted on July 02, 2012 at 09:36 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Good point, I'm making optimistic assumptions.

The Euro that they are rumored to be signing with the MLE would be a good candidate to stretch the floor (takes a lot and hits around a .360 of threes) other than that, you've got Johnson and Williams. So if the Euro becomes their crunch time 4 then you've got 3 out of 5 that can hit uncontested 3's.

Defense is definitely a problem, and likely the reason that a 4/5 pick is safe. I am assuming that Johnson can implement a decent defense. Anyway, we'll see.

Edit: Spivey, you'd have to take Williams over Chauncey

28. Spivey posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:17 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Edit: Spivey, you'd have to take Williams over Chauncey

No I don't. Chauncey's prime PER and WS are both better than Williams prime, Williams hasn't been very good in 2 years, and Chauncey was the better defender.

29. The District Attorney posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've heard Billups for the Hall of Fame talk. I'm pretty sure it's crazy talk, but I have heard it...

30. robinred

posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:41 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've heard Billups for the Hall of Fame talk.I'm pretty sure it's crazy talk,

Disagree. There is no "NBA HOF" of course, but I think you can make a good case for Billups in Springfield.

31. GregD posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:48 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've heard Billups for the Hall of Fame talk. I'm pretty sure it's crazy talk, but I have heard it...

I don't understand the HOF's standards, but you can make a Billups case. If he plays 2 more years, he'll be top 25 in all-time assists, top 45-50 in minutes and games played, likely still top 5 in 3 pointers, top 30 in Win Shares. I can't parse who should go in and who should be out of such a strange HOF, but you can see how he belongs in the conversation.

32. Tripon posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:54 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Its the basketball half of fame, they take the totality of a person's career, from college, NBA, and in some cases, coaching.

33. thok posted on July 02, 2012 at 10:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've argued Chauncey is better than Nash (once you adjust for pace and defensive ability), and Nash for HOF is certainly not crazy talk.

A Wallace/Williams/Johnson/Lopez Nets teams feels like the Mutumbo/Laettner/Smith/Blaylock Hawks teams. A lot of decent players and possibility for a 50-55 win season, but it's not getting you a title.

34. PJ Martinez posted on July 02, 2012 at 11:12 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

kpelton's take on ATL/BK. Zach Lowe on same.

35. Kurt posted on July 02, 2012 at 11:18 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

It's come up here before, but for a team moving to Brooklyn and trying to generate some buzz, 50-55 wins and a 4-5 seed seems a lot better business plan than winning 25-30 games a year for the foreseeable future and trying to hit the lottery. Whether they made these moves or not, the chances of winning a title in the next ten years are really low.

36. tshipman

posted on July 02, 2012 at 11:31 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Rather than kill Billy King, let's take a moment to celebrate Danny Ferry.

Smart moves, Danny Ferry! You got yourself freedom to turn this team into a contender! You've got a guy (Horford) who fits in pretty well on a championship team. You got yourself the flexibility to pick up an elite player next year (Paul or Howard). Now, a lot of bad things can happen between now and then, but it's not like the Hawks were going anywhere anyways!

So congratulations, Danny Ferry! You traded the guy with the worst contract in the league and you got a couple guys in the deal who don't completely suck. Nice way to start things off.

37. Tripon posted on July 02, 2012 at 11:40 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I remember Danny Ferry to be a terribad GM when he was with the Cavs.

38. Athletic Supporter gangnam style posted on July 03, 2012 at 12:06 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

As for Billy King: Good job, good effort!

I actually don't hate this move for NJBKN, but it had to be said.

39. robinred

posted on July 03, 2012 at 12:44 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

It's come up here before, but for a team moving to Brooklyn and trying to generate some buzz, 50-55 wins and a 4-5 seed seems a lot better business plan than winning 25-30 games a year for the foreseeable future and trying to hit the lottery.

40. robinred

posted on July 03, 2012 at 01:01 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Both the Lowe and Pelton pieces are very solid, as usual with those two guys.

41. baudib posted on July 03, 2012 at 03:24 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

When you have a franchise-changing player who wants to play for your team, I can't see how you throw that away by signing Joe F. Johnson.*

This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

* I don't have the foggiest clue as to how the amnestying business works, but I assume the Nets can't amnesty Johnson after trading for him.

42. robinred

posted on July 03, 2012 at 03:59 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

baudib,

Correct--you can only amnesty guys who signed with you pre-CBA. About three days ago, I was BSing with a Lakerfan pal about Howard and I told him that since Smith and Howard are buddies and Howard is from ATL, that maybe Ferry would try to position the Hawks for a run at Howard and Paul in 2013--get the hometown hero and correct the huge drafting error all in one shot, and turn the franchise around. I said, "Of course, they will have to amnesty Joe Johnson." Didn't see this trade coming at all.

43. robinred

posted on July 03, 2012 at 07:04 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Broussard:

There is still a chance that Orlando Magic star Dwight Howard could become a member of the Brooklyn Nets, according to league sources.

The Nets and the Orlando Magic are discussing a trade that would send Howard to the Nets for Brook Lopez, Kris Humphries, MarShon Brooks and the Nets' first-round picks in 2012, 2014, 2016 and 2018, sources said.

44. robinred

posted on July 03, 2012 at 07:08 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Broussard has now corrected it to 2013, 15, and 17.

45. baudib posted on July 03, 2012 at 07:34 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

thanks rr

this is a pretty stunning development.

46. Kurt posted on July 03, 2012 at 07:58 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I might be on board with this if Howard had been quoted as saying that his lifelong dream was to play for Mark Cuban, or to don Celtic Green, Bulls Red, or Laker Purple-and-Gold. But since Howard specifically said "Brooklyn" I can't see trading for Joe Johnson on the same day those quotes hit the internet. Perhaps events will prove me wrong.

Sure. The only way this makes any sense at all is if they determined for whatever reason that they couldn't get Howard (or if, per Broussard, they could get Howard anyway). No argument that choosing Joe Johnson over Howard is lunacy.

47. PJ Martinez posted on July 03, 2012 at 08:08 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Yeah, if King pulls that off then we all have to seriously tip our hats to him. But until then... not so much.

48. jmurph posted on July 03, 2012 at 08:09 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

this is a pretty stunning development.

Absolutely, and I love it. I say that as no fan of the Nets, or certainly of Howard, but this is fun stuff. I hope they pull it off. I have absolutely no idea how they're going to fill out the rest of the roster. Anyone smart enough on the salary cap to explain that?

49. jmurph posted on July 03, 2012 at 08:10 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Also, is it too late to back out of the Wallace deal? Looks to me like they're going to need that 10 million for spots 4-12.

50. Der_K posted on July 03, 2012 at 09:43 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Yeah, if King pulls that off then we all have to seriously tip our hats to him. But until then... not so much.

Exactly. The ORL/BRK proposal makes a ton of sense for Brooklyn, but for Orlando?
1) How much do you pay Lopez and Humphries so that this makes sense for them (the latter presumably takes a megabucks deal with only the first yr guaranteed - Lopez would want something firmer)?
2) If you've met that criteria, how do those guys make sense for Orlando? Do they get rid of easily their #2 guy, RFA Ryan Anderson (who's limited to the four spot)? If not - Lopez/Anderson is pretty rough defensively and you've got an exceptionally expensive backup four. (EDIT: I guess Kris could be s/t'd to a third team)
3) The picks - how valuable are 3 picks at the bottom of the first round (as a Nets club w/ Howard-Wallace-Johnson-Williams should be very, very good, aging or no)?
4) Brooks is nice, but not a sufficient enticement for ORL to do something.

My guess is that this is, in part, a bluff to get other clubs to raise their bids (on Orlando's part - I'm sure Brooklyn does this deal).

****

In the environment we're talking about, Brooklyn needs to keep Wallace - though maybe not for quite so much money.

Page 1 of 50 pages 1 2 3 4 5 6 > Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

/m/basketball

Wednesday, May 01, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - May 2013

Reader Comments and Retorts

Basketball Think Factory