To Moses' point on Thibs vs. Miami, really good article by Couper Moorhead on Thibs defensive scheming against Miami.

I'll take KG's side this time, that didn't look intentional. Good quote though.

They gave him a flagrant 2 and watching the replay several times, I doubt if it was even a flagrant 1. The foul itself was fairly mundane, if hard, hacking down on the ball as the shooter was about to go up. That happens 10 times a game, at least. He did follow through with an elbow but it appeared that he was just trying to extricte his arm rather than hit Hansbrough with it. Very dubious call.

What I remember mostly about Nelson and the post Nelson influenced years is that we've had guys who could rebound and score but they were superficial/not valuable because the scoring was low-percentage volume jumpshooting and the rebounding was all garbage defensive rebounding. Guys like Troy Murphy and Jamison come to mind, but Jamison was a pretty good offensive rebounder

Lasting image of NellieBall was bringing the ball up the court with less than a minute left down by two, hoisting up a three, miraculously getting the rebound, and hosting up another three. @$#*@*&&$#@&#@$))

Signs of life from the Celtics: down 15 at the half in Atlanta, they started playing serious defense for the first time in a while and outscored the Hawks 33 to 9 in the third. Ended up winning by 8. Their first back-to-back wins in 3 weeks.

Given the recent discussion, it's worth noting that Griffin had a pretty interesting game against the Warriors last night: 20 points in 30 mins, only 5 rebounds but 7 assists, 3 steals. David Lee had a very pedestrian night with 10/5, and the Clippers won by 26.

Rockets have won 11 of their last 14, they really do look bad against the Thunder / Spurs though.

Maybe a little bad blood brewing between the NBA's best California teams:

jadande J.A. Adande
Chris Paul is throwing lobs to DeAndre Jordan off the backboard and from halfcourt. Clippers are straight clowning the Warriors, 94-56 in 3Q

jadande J.A. Adande
Mark Jackson, on his glare toward Clipper bench "Just good old-fashioned, heavyweight championship staredown

,

Greivis Vasquez...who knew!?

Warriors may have invited some of that during their beatdown of the Clips earlier this week.

Lasting image of NellieBall was bringing the ball up the court with less than a minute left down by two, hoisting up a three, miraculously getting the rebound, and hosting up another three. @$#*@*&&$#@&#@$))

Agreed. Nelson never properly adapted to the rule change that brought in the 3. At first, it didn't matter than much because not that many of them were taken and Nelson had a fine decade in the eighties. But as the shooters got better and the 3 became an integral part of the NBA-style offense, he failed to make the proper adjustments.

Signs of life from the Celtics: down 15 at the half in Atlanta, they started playing serious defense for the first time in a while and outscored the Hawks 33 to 9 in the third.

Two reasons: having Bradley back and Sullinger's adaptation to the league. With Sullinger's emergence, I can see them trading Green around the AS break.

With Sullinger's emergence, I can see them trading Green around the AS break.

I'm sure teams are lining up to take on that contract.

Since the Warriors seem to be a topic du jour, how many wins do people see them ending up with? They're currently 22-11, which means to win 50 they'd have to go 28-21. I guess I can see them doing that, though I don't think they're as good as their record. I also expect the Lakers will get it together and make the playoffs, maybe even as a fairly decent seed.

50 wins does not seem at all out of the question for Golden State. The wildcard is Bogut. David Lee said on Bill Simmons's podcast that he thinks Bogut will be back this season (FWIW). They're 12th in Def Rtg now; Bogut probably pushes them into the top 7 or 8 at least.

And yeah, I also think the Lakers will start reeling off wins at some point and make the playoffs, though first-round homecourt appears to be fading from view.

I suspect the only way Jeff Green would have positive trade value is if he helped salaries match in a larger deal. In that case, a team might feel almost good about adding a semi-versatile player still on the right side of his prime who is by all accounts a good clubhouse guy. Otherwise, though, he probably has negative trade value, thanks to that crazy contract.

Brandon Bass is getting paid a little less and is on a shorter contract, so he might be easier to deal. And he *might* be giving Boston even less than Jeff Green right now. It's fairly close, anyway.

In that case, a team might feel almost good about adding a semi-versatile player still on the right side of his prime who is by all accounts a good clubhouse guy

RDF.

50 wins does not seem at all out of the question for Golden State. The wildcard is Bogut. David Lee said on Bill Simmons's podcast that he thinks Bogut will be back this season (FWIW). They're 12th in Def Rtg now; Bogut probably pushes them into the top 7 or 8 at least.

All-Star talent looking for some durability, but his body won't hold up. Obviously, you could say that about a lot of guys, but it's always sad to see when it happens. I'd like to see Bogut and the Warriors do well. Run TMC was at its zenith (55 wins!) when I went to school up there, so I've always had a soft spot for that franchise, which is almost cruel coming from a Laker fan. Speaking of which...

And yeah, I also think the Lakers will start reeling off wins at some point and make the playoffs, though first-round homecourt appears to be fading from view.

Do people still think home court for the Lakers is still possible? It's not.

I suspect the only way Jeff Green would have positive trade value is if he helped salaries match in a larger deal.

It's sad to say, but a trade that involved Gasol and Green would help both the Lakers and Celtics, but Boston wouldn't be able to match Gasol's salary. It's particularly sad because that implies Green would help a team more than Gasol. Yuck.

It's sad to say, but a trade that involved Gasol and Green would help both the Lakers and Celtics, but Boston wouldn't be able to match Gasol's salary. It's particularly sad because that implies Green would help a team more than Gasol. Yuck.

Sounds like a challenge...

Well, Green and Bass can't be traded until 1/15 (so I can't confirm it with the trade machine), but I think Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol works (C's take on less than $400k in salary, perhaps the C's have to take a minimum body like Sacre back for roster space reasons). I see a few reasons for both teams to do that, but more reasons not to for each.

The Celtics would do Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol in a cocaine heartbeat, but LA would wisely turn that down just as fast.

Given the recent discussion, it's worth noting that Griffin had a pretty interesting game against the Warriors last night: 20 points in 30 mins, only 5 rebounds but 7 assists, 3 steals. David Lee had a very pedestrian night with 10/5, and the Clippers won by 26.

Griffin destroyed Lee last night, especially in first quarter, where he outscored Lee 14-0 (and Warriors as a whole 14-12) and the Clippers jumped out to a 23 point lead, basically ending the game right there. Griffin didn't do as much rest of the way, but he didn't have to, it was basically 3 quarters of garbage time, the Warriors were down by 39 at couple points of the game.

Obviously Lee is usually better than this, just like Griffin is usually better than his performance earlier in the week (although Lee didn't have to play in Denver the night before like Griffin did before his rough game against Lee).

I remember when Brandon Bass was the good Glen Davis. I haven't watched him, but what's going on there? My quick diagnosis from the stats is that he's not getting to the line, which means he's probably taking worse shots.

I grew up with an affinity for Golden State, after they drafted Tyrone Hill. I was too young to analyze basketball critically then -- it seemed like Run TMC wasn't built for the playoffs?

Similarly, I think Billy Owens was the start of me hating soft, underperforming forwards from Syracuse.

Bass signed a big contract and gained weight. He has notably poorer athleticism this year. He was never much of a slasher, but it is gone now. I hate to use such a simplistic explanation, but I think that covers it.

I grew up with an affinity for Golden State, after they drafted Tyrone Hill. I was too young to analyze basketball critically then -- it seemed like Run TMC wasn't built for the playoffs?... Similarly, I think Billy Owens was the start of me hating soft, underperforming forwards from Syracuse.

That was what everyone used to say, that Nelson needed a big man and if he ever got one they'd be unbeatable. Owens was supposed to be the guy who would give them an inside presence. Turns out not so much, but I remember being very, very excited during that first season he was there.

I remember Billy Owens as one of the "next Magic Johnson" types rather than an inside presence.

Yeah -- Owens was a big wing forward, IIRC. Kind of a classic pro tweener -- couldn't play down low, couldn't play on the wing.

My childhood fantasies revolved around Sam Perkins landing on the Warriors.

From the "Can I have this career over?" department, what would Billy Owens career look like if he came along 5-10 years later, when big men were starting to shoot 3-pointers? [edit: throughout their entire development]

Yeah -- Owens was a big wing forward, IIRC. Kind of a classic pro tweener -- couldn't play down low, couldn't play on the wing.

I think they saw him as the player Chris Webber would become. And of course, they went and got Webber, won 50 games, and then opened up a whole new chapter of pain by forcing a trade out of town. Assuming they make the playoffs this season (a safe assumption), the current Warriors will be just the second GSW team to do so since Webber left town.

Well, Green and Bass can't be traded until 1/15 (so I can't confirm it with the trade machine), but I think Green/Bass/Lee for Gasol works (C's take on less than $400k in salary, perhaps the C's have to take a minimum body like Sacre back for roster space reasons). I see a few reasons for both teams to do that, but more reasons not to for each.

with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.


thoughts?

Speaking of the Warrior, I'm a bit surprised that Chris Mullin is a HOFer... I remember that he was a good player and all, but HOF? though maybe that's because he's one of those white guy that hits a ton of 3s and not the highlight reel dunk kind of guy.

Admitted I'm a much more casual basketball fan than baseball, looking it up, Mullin 's WS is on the lowish end of the HOF but actually wasn't undeserving, wow (and it's really only on the low end because the 90s saw a crazy awesome collection of players)



The western conference is very intriguing this year, as of today Wolf / Jazz / Laker / Mavs are all on the outside looking in, you'd figure at least half of them would make a run at it before all is said and done.

At this point, Clipper / Spurs / Thunder are essentially locks, and Warriors / Grizzly should be too baring catastrophic 2nd half. the 6/7/8 at this point is Rockets / Portland / Denver, all rather exciting young teams (especially Portland and Houston, as is the Wolfs). it's going to be mighty interesting to see how that plays out.

Still, if Mullin's low 90s WS is a bar for the HOF, but I don't see how some of the active player either around or probably would be around that when all's said and done would make it...

Can you clarify whether a player being a top-5 player in the league merely by being in the Sixers starting lineup carries over after they're traded? Or do they become mortal again, with the incoming player taking their place as All-NBA?

I think that has a lot of impact on any Sixers trade analysis.

Can you clarify whether a player being a top-5 player in the league merely by being in the Sixers starting lineup carries over after they're traded? Or do they become mortal again, with the incoming player taking their place as All-NBA?

I think that has a lot of impact on any Sixers trade analysis.

that's actually not as much of an issue as you'd think because the only sixers starters in this trade are lavoy allen and jason richardson.

[129] Mullin has a lot of narrative going for him. NYC / Big East star. The most mediagenic of Run-TMC -- (?) there's probably some of my own childhood institutional racism here. Dream Team'er, thoughh e strikes me as the weakest of the at-large pool of pro-Olympians*, but someone has to be, and I'm not sure Reggie Miller would be a huge step up.

Anyway, looking at his career on bb-ref, I see a durable, high-minute, efficient medium-volume scorer. Also, his career at St. John's factors into the Basketball Hall of Fame.

*I'm positing that there was no way to leave Bird or Magic off the roster.

with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.

Wait just a second... the Sixers are getting Kobe Bryant and Kevin Love and Ricky Rubio and getting rid of Andrew Bynum, and you think they're getting pretty solid value back? The Wolves are going to trade Love and Rubio for Bynum? The Lakers are going to trade Kobe for a bunch of guys who, put together, aren't the player Kobe is?

Yeah, that trade isn't going to work.

I think that trade was dripping with some sort of blend of sarcasm and STEAGLESasm.

The Lakers are going to trade Kobe for a bunch of guys who, put together, aren't the player Kobe is?

well, that's just not true. if you put all of the guys the lakers are getting together, their PER is double what kobe's is.

that actually seems like the exact opposite of what you're saying.

My childhood fantasies revolved around Sam Perkins landing on the Warriors.

Mine revolved around Lynda Carter. I say I win.

Lynda Carter can't protect the rim or participate in a unique fast-paced offense. I mean, I'm sure Nellie floated an Alton Lister for Lynda Carter trade, but its probably best that it didn't go through.

There was always a lot of "what if" talk about Nellie getting a center, but even if he got one outside of an all-time stud he probably wouldn't have known what to do with him. His system, as noted above, just wasn't meant to work with a center who needed touches. What he really needed was a guy like Ben Wallace, hyper athletic and fast who could run, block shots, rebound, and play great D, but would be happy with 7 shots a game. The problem being that there is an extreme shortage of Ben Wallaces.

Billy Owens was seen as an athletic power forward when he came into the league but what he turned out to be was a small forward. That stymied him early in his career when he was put down on the blocks but couldn't hang there. Then later in his career when teams moved him outside his feet were too slow to play on the perimeter, particularly on defense. Owen's primary problem was that he either needed to be a little taller or a little faster. 6'6"-6'9" can be a real no-man's land in the NBA unless you're blessed with extreme quickness.

6'6"-6'9" can be a real no-man's land in the NBA unless you're blessed with extreme quickness.

I feel like a lot of roads to NCAA titles and Final Fours are paved with these guys.

Lynda Carter can't

There's nothing Lynda Carter can't do. She's goddamned Wonder Woman! Besides, who can think about basketball when she's around? For guys around my age (40), her running around in a once-piece pretty much defined womanly perfection for us.

-- Concur on Lynda Carter. Also Erin Gray.

-- Mullin would be in the HOF if he never played in the NBA.

-- Do we have a handle on exactly how good James Harden is yet? It's no surprise that he is having a great year, but with the Rockets playing the highest pace in the league, I guess there is some air in his numbers that need to be accounted for. One thing's for sure, he has a lot of games where he just wrecks teams by drawing 6+ fouls a game and going 14 for 15 at the line.

I remember when Brandon Bass was the good Glen Davis. I haven't watched him, but what's going on there? My quick diagnosis from the stats is that he's not getting to the line, which means he's probably taking worse shots.

You're right that he's not getting to the line as much. But it's not like he got to the line a ton before. He's really looked like a mess this year, and it's a bit of a mystery as to why. He went from being the good Glen Davis to being the bad Glen Davis kind of suddenly.

I think in the case of the Rockets and Harden it's an example of a system that works great for the team / player . Rockets play a fast pace yeah but their limited presence down low makes it much more logical for them to play this way, Asik's number is also inflated to some extend if you think of it this way, because a. they're other forwards can't rebound for shite, and b. because they do such a large spread offense that it ends up drawing the opposing team out so much which gives Asik a lot of room to work both in scoring and rebounds.

Speaking of Run-TMC, the current Rocket system is alot like that no? though Asik would have been the big man Nelson probably needed. He's not the most ideal Ben Wallace type obviously, but he can create a good enough presence on his own with most of his team spread out helps a lot.

with all of the lakers trade talk, and with the sixers sucking, how does this one sound to everybody? the sixers are really giving up a lot (too much?), but i think they're getting pretty solid value back.

I think the Hollinger analysis pretty much sums it up:

Lakers - lose 11 wins
Wolves - lose 21 wins
Sixers - gain 19 wins


Yeah, I'm not seeing the upside for two of the three teams...

-- Mullin would be in the HOF if he never played in the NBA.

That feels right to me though I've given up on understanding the Basketball Hall of Fame. Nor have I figured out what to do with the Collegiate Basketball Hall of Fame. Mullin is in both. Christian Laettner is only in Kansas City, so maybe it's right to say that Mullin needed some NBA supplement to get to Springfield.

The fact that Mullin was player of the year over Ewing kind of states how big, how important he was in college hoops. He and Ewing basically put the Big East on the map. Those games were titanic.

I guess it's fair to say that you have to do about as much as Bill Bradley as a pro to get in with that type of college career. Mullin clearly is above that line. I think he's probably a decent HOFer on his own NBA merits. Laettner probably deserves to be in as well.

asik's rebounding % isn't that different than what he posted last year (less orb, more drb, bit more total reb)

I think in the case of the Rockets and Harden it's an example of a system that works great for the team / player . Rockets play a fast pace yeah but their limited presence down low makes it much more logical for them to play this way, Asik's number is also inflated to some extend if you think of it this way, because a. they're other forwards can't rebound for shite, and b. because they do such a large spread offense that it ends up drawing the opposing team out so much which gives Asik a lot of room to work both in scoring and rebounds.

This is funny to me because by advance metrics (outside of PER), Harden is playing worse than he was last year. To me, this points out the flaws in basketball advance statistics. To other people, maybe not so much.

so what's wrong with the Lakers now? Nash is back, Howard.. if he isn't healthy then the stats certainly aren't showing much (seeing that he had a wooping 26 rebound today). Kobe is still largely Kobe, and I really don't get what's all the fuss with Gasol. Artest...errr Worldpeace is a flawed player but as a role player in this sort of rotation he seems fine... so what's up? is it the second team getting beat too badly?

I mean if they're going to make the playoffs, they really should stop losing at home to one of the most likely team they can knock off ... (aka Denver)

The one plausible what-if for the TMC Warriors getting a center is if they do the Billy Owens for Mitch Richmond trade before the draft (so they pick up the third pick rather than Owens), then draft Dikembe Mutumbo instead of Billy Owens.

Of course, I don't think Nelson would have had a clue of how to make Dikembe/Hardaway/Mullin work.