Normally I'm happy when teams that usually suck finally have some success, but it's hard for me to get behind the Warriors when their shameless tanking last year cost the Jazz a draft pick. I hate rooting for players to get hurt, but if you fake injuries to weasel your way into a draft pick you don't deserve, it would almost seem karmic if your season came crashing down the following year due to some real injuries...

I think the Warriors have had about 30 years of karma. Its about time something went the right direction for them.

So Andre Drummond, pretty much on pace for the best teenage season ever.

You mean since last year?

BTW, per Play Index, a fun list: 20 guys have played 500 minutes in a season as a teenager and had a PER >= 15:

Three rookies this year (Drummond, Kidd-Gilchrist and Davis)
Irving last year.
A bunch of future HoFers and/or multiple All-Stars: Kobe, Garnett, Lebron, Bosh, McGrady (at 18 and 19!), Durant, Howard, Carmelo
Other all-world talents: Josh Smith, Andrew Bynum, Stephon Marbury
Cliff Robinson in 1979-80!
Thaddeus Young!?
Then: Anthony Randolph and Kosta Koufos! (in only 565 minutes)

Increase it to 18 PER and 1000 minutes and you get Irving, McGrady, Kobe, and Lebron.

So Andre Drummond, pretty much on pace for the best teenage season ever.

Yeah, I may have to eat my words on Drummond. It's early, though. It's hard to see a 40% free throw shooter being an NBA starter unless he's Ben Wallace/Dennis Rodman, but Drummond's rebounding numbers are terrific, especially for his age, and his defense is, by all accounts, shockingly good for a rookie. He's no Thabeet.

With the Knicks David Lee was a really bad defender. Is he any better now?

I've always been a really big fan of his; he was a rare bright spot on some depressing teams. When he left the Knicks I said I'd rather have signed him than Amare; I wasn't exactly sure how serious I was but in retrospect it would be a no brainer.

You mean since last year?

Kyrie is definitely in the conversation for that same accolade. That being said the difference between them defensively is huge. Then again Kyrie was playing 10 more MPG than Drummond is, it's a shame Drummond isn't getting more playing time.

I actually watched most of Minnesota-Utah last night, and a Utah announcer said that Love had supposedly said that he neglected his conditioning a bit during the hand injury. Love's shot looked flat to me, and yes, playing in the altitude without Rubio against a team that needed a win and is a pretty good team, Minnesota looked very ordinary and a little dead. Kanter and Pekovic are kind of fun to watch; huge, strong guys with some basketball skills, one of whom looks like Andre the Giant's lost son and the other of whom looks like the villain's enforcer from a Roger Moore-era James Bond movie.

Mo Williams will miss six weeks or more, and the Utah announcers were talking about it a lot.

one of whom looks like Andre the Giant's lost son and the other of whom looks like the villain's enforcer from a Roger Moore-era James Bond movie.

My favorite part is that I am not sure which is which. I assume Pek is the latter. Also, wouldn't Andre the Giant himself have been a great Moore-era Bond goon?

I think the Warriors have had about 30 years of karma. Its about time something went the right direction for them.

Indeed. I'm a Warriors fan who was too young to really enjoy the TMC days (although I did get to meet Chris Gatling once!), and - apart from the We Believe upset of Dallas, this is the most fun I've ever had watching them.

I barely remember when they won the title as I was 5 and those were the glory years of East Bay sports with the Raiders and the A's battling for the championship every year. I miss those days.

The C's talk has pretty much been non-existent in the threads this season. Especially compared to the Lakers high-profile troubles. What is the problem with the C's? Age? The annual regular season blues (aka turn it on in the playoffs)? I wasn't buying the C's in the preseason, despite the talk of the upgraded depth, but have barely seen them play.

Joe C answered in much more detail than I can, but to me the key is that the current record is only 1 game behind last year. Garnett knows he's only got so much left in the tank, and he's not going to waste his energy on the regular season. There has been a lot of turnover with this team, and my guess is it's just the new players a while to learn Doc's defensive system.

I fully expect them to be dangerous in the playoffs, because anytime you count these guys out they tend to make you look stupid.

I fully expect them to be dangerous in the playoffs, because anytime you count these guys out they tend to make you look stupid.

I expect this to be true for both the Lakers and Celtics. Older, talented teams with no back-to-backs to worry about and just one opponent to focus on can become much better than their regular season record make them out to be... or at least, that's what I believe.

As I have said several times, as long as Garnett, and to a lesser extent, Pierce, are around and effective, Boston should never be entirely discounted.

I am not sure about the Lakers; I think things are completely up in the air for them at this point. Boston has shown this pattern under Rivers before, but the Lakers have different core guys and a new coach who plays guys heavy minutes.

As I have said several times, as long as Garnett, and to a lesser extent, Pierce, are around and effective, Boston should never be entirely discounted.

I am not sure about the Lakers; I think things are completely up in the air for them at this point.

Mo Williams will miss six weeks or more, and the Utah announcers were talking about it a lot.

Yeah, and that makes me sad. Mostly cuz it means big minutes for Tinsley and Watson, who IMO should just be getting spot minutes off the bench in garbage time (though they were both pretty good last night). I'd still rather Corbin experiment with Foye or Burks at PG until Mo comes back. Plus then Hayward could take Foye's minutes at SG and get up to the 30+ minutes a game he deserves.

I am not sure about the Lakers; I think things are completely up in the air for them at this point.

I still expect the Lakers to figure things out and finish around 50 wins, but even if they're at the top of their game come playoff time, I think they'll have a much tougher time advancing past the first round than the Celts would just cuz of conference strength. Spurs, Thunder, Clips, and Grizz (in any order) are legitimately great teams and I'm having a hard time seeing any of the lower seeds pulling an upset, even one as talented as the Lakers. I think they'll need home court to do any damage in the playoffs (same with Nuggets, Warriors, etc).

The Wolves and Nuggs are in crunch time with Barea-Ridnour-Williams-Cunningham-AK (Love sprained a finger) against Miller-Lawson-Iggy-Faried-Gallo.

The guy had a bad game last night, it happens, especially on the second night of a road back to back. He also just had a stretch where his team went undefeated for a month and he shot 59% from the field. Duncan has had some bad games this year too, including a game where they got blown out by the Clippers and he had only 10 points and 6 rebounds, nobody is going to use that one game to judge him.

Duncan put up 11 and 6 with three turnovers tonight. I really don't care what the advanced stats say....

I really don't care what the advanced stats say....

Har har har. Except I wasn't talking about one game, and the entire comment was referencing other comparable PF's in the West vs. Griffin. Just stick to watching your Lakers crash and burn and pout and complain.

I mean, do you realize how annoying it is when people have the belief that stats tell you everything there is to know, and anyone who doesn't 100% fully subscribe to that is a moron? It's JUST as annoying as the opposite, the people who refuse to look at stats and make jokes about pocket protectors and living in your mom's basement. I know it's hard to believe but some people like to actually look at stats but not form their entire opinion from them. But hey- keep up the smug ####### attitude, it's pretty great.

I mean, do you realize how annoying it is when people have the belief that stats tell you everything there is to know, and anyone who doesn't 100% fully subscribe to that is a moron? It's JUST as annoying as the opposite, the people who refuse to look at stats and make jokes about pocket protectors and living in your mom's basement.

Personally I'm completely good with people using stats - I just think we're still in the very early infancy of basketball stats. We still don't really know much, though we're struggling toward enlightenment. At this point I don't really believe we can truly separate players in terms of value into anything other than very loose tiers, and certainly have no idea who the #8 player in the NBA is vs. the #9.

But, there's a lot of money to be made, so we'll get there.

Har har har. Except I wasn't talking about one game, and the entire comment was referencing other comparable PF's in the West vs. Griffin. Just stick to watching your Lakers crash and burn and pout and complain.

I gotta be honest, watching the Lakers tank has been awful. But I also watch a lot of Clipper basketball, and Griffin's pretty awesome.

I mean, do you realize how annoying it is when people have the belief that stats tell you everything there is to know, and anyone who doesn't 100% fully subscribe to that is a moron?

Yes. I do realize it. You may not know it, but I've at the front of the line mocking the statistical argument that Ben Wallace was the most valuable player in the NBA from 2001 to 2003, and regulars can attest to my arguments vs. True Hoop's anti-Kobe end-of-game statistical jihad.

I know it's hard to believe but some people like to actually look at stats but not form their entire opinion from them. But hey- keep up the smug ####### attitude, it's pretty great.

You're welcome. I should point out that your initial "I really don't care what the advanced stats say..." (which, FWIW, is in itself pretty smug) with "David Lee is beating Griffin in every significant offensive category right now...." Essentially, you're cherry-picking the per-game stats you like while ignoring stats you don't, and throwing on top of that a sample of one game to declare that Griffin is not only not a top-8 player, but that David Lee is at least his equal.

Now let me ask you, how many games have you watched Griffin play? Because I've watched at least, oh, 75 Clipper games over the last 2+ seasons. I don't know that Griffin is a top-8 player, but I know that (1) he's extremely efficient around the basket, (2) he's been stretching his offensive repertoire beyond 10 feet, and (3) he's clearly improved defensively. I also know he's been taking more than 2 fewer shots while playing 5 fewer minutes per game than Lee playing on a team with a slower pace, which would address some of those per-game stats you cited. I've been a big David Lee fan since his McDonald's All-American dunk contest win so I don't want to knock him, but I don't think it's a diss to say that Griffin is just flat out better than Lee because, if you exclude guards and swingmen, I don't think there are five guys in the NBA better than Griffin is right now.

but I don't think it's a diss to say that Griffin is just flat out better than Lee because, if you exclude guards and swingmen, I don't think there are five guys in the NBA better than Griffin is right now.

I don't see that one can really compare a power forward to a center at this point because they're completely different positions and we're not too sharp yet on equalizing them, but I do think we can compare power forwards to power forwards. That being said Griffin is currently #12 on WS/48. The non-guard non-swingmen ahead of him are Tyson Chandler, Tim Duncan, Tiago Splitter, and Marc Gasol (David Lee is one spot behind Griffin at #13). He's #11 in total Win Shares - the guys ahead are Tyson Chandler, David Lee, Tim Duncan, and Marc Gasol. So by either measure you could very well be right.

On a completely different note, as a Warriors fan I wonder where the other Warriors fans who were so up in arms over the Ellis trade are now (not that there were any as I recall on this site, more in the general sense). Classic addition by subtraction. Getting Bogut back eventually possibly some day is pure gravy.

On a completely different note, as a Warriors fan I wonder where the other Warriors fans who were so up in arms over the Ellis trade are now (not that there were any as I recall on this site, more in the general sense). Classic addition by subtraction. Getting Bogut back eventually possibly some day is pure gravy.

Well, it ended up being Ellis for Harrison Barnes (plus Bogut). :)

I should point out that your initial "I really don't care what the advanced stats say..." (which, FWIW, is in itself pretty smug) with "David Lee is beating Griffin in every significant offensive category right now...." Essentially, you're cherry-picking the per-game stats you like while ignoring stats you don't, and throwing on top of that a sample of one game to declare that Griffin is not only not a top-8 player, but that David Lee is at least his equal.

That comment wasn't meant to be smug at all- it was purely opinion coming from a moderate indifference to advanced stats I'm supposed to worship as God's truth, which I knew would draw ire from people here- which it did. I wasn't cherry picking because, as you quoted, all I said was "David Lee is beating Griffin in every significant offensive category right now." Which he is. You would have to cherry pick stats to find anything that, offensively, Griffin is beating Lee at. Look at the stats, both simple and advanced, and show me otherwise.

And this isn't even about being a Warriors fan, or a Lee fan, per se- my whole point was that I disagreed with the notion that Griffin was significantly better than other PF's in the West. I happened to use Lee as an example, and it didn't have much to do with that one game, though that certainly didn't help. Griffin looked silly out there.

Now let me ask you, how many games have you watched Griffin play? Because I've watched at least, oh, 75 Clipper games over the last 2+ seasons.

I would guess in the past two years I've watched around 40 Clippers games, which leads me to this...

but I don't think it's a diss to say that Griffin is just flat out better than Lee because, if you exclude guards and swingmen, I don't think there are five guys in the NBA better than Griffin is right now.

I don't understand how you can exclude teammates. I'm sure you understand how much of a HUGE advantage Chris Paul is to Griffin. Can you imagine how much Aldridge's or Love's stats would go through the roof playing with Chris Paul? Or Lee's, or Cousin's, or Anthony's...

Here are five players better than Griffin: LeBron, Durant, Paul, Westbrook, James Harden. And Carmelo didn't even make that list and his PER is over four points higher than Griffin's right now...

it was purely opinion coming from a moderate indifference to advanced stats I'm supposed to worship as God's truth, which I knew would draw ire from people here- which it did.

Naw. One thing I have learned about BTF: for the most part, you get what you give. The tone you used and the way you did it pretty much locked you in for a little blowback, and the "worship advanced stats as God's truth" thing is not the case with this crowd. People here have talked about the limits of advanced stats many times, particularly PER, which you use as part of your case.

As to the issue itself, looking at Griffin's BaskRef Page, his EFG has jumped since Paul came to the Clippers, but a lot of his other statistical gains have actually been on D and many of his metrics have stayed pretty constant; he put up a 21.9 PER as a rookie, and it is 22 on the nose today. I don't like Griffin much; I am not a fan either of his style of play or of the personality he projects. But Griffin was an All-Star the day he showed up in the NBA and would be with or without Chris Paul.

Due to the aerobatics and to playing in LA, Griffin gets more MSM/endorsement attention than some other guys who are arguably more or less as good as he is, like Lee and Aldridge. But the guy is clearly an elite player. I would personally take Griffin over either of those two guys, but the gap is certainly not huge.

That comment wasn't meant to be smug at all- it was purely opinion coming from a moderate indifference to advanced stats I'm supposed to worship as God's truth, which I knew would draw ire from people here- which it did.

So "advanced stats" are to be disregarded, but unadjusted per-game stats are to be taken at face value? Hm.

"David Lee is beating Griffin in every significant offensive category right now." Which he is.

This is what I have a problem with. You junk the rate stats, but hug the per-game stats, and label them as "significant" while ignoring the fact that Lee is playing more minutes on a team that plays a faster pace. Per 36 minutes, Griffin actually scores slightly more, gets three times more blocks and a half-steal more per game. Lee grabs about a rebound more. There's almost no difference in their per-minute offensive numbers, so the argument that Lee's per-game stat advantage should mean something significant doesn't work. And of course, Griffin is the better defender, and I don't think there's a debate on that end.

But the argument as to who the better player is goes beyond who's getting what per game this season. Lee's having a terrific season, but there's no reason to think his season is any better than Griffin's is right now. Furthermore, Griffin was better last year, and he was better the year before that. Given their relative ages, it's a safe bet Griffin's going to be better next year, too. He's just better. I'm not saying that there's a yawning canyon of difference between the two — there's certainly not a statistically significant difference between the two this year offensively — but Griffin's better. A fraction of a point here or there shouldn't alter that evaluation.

I don't understand how you can exclude teammates.

RR answered this one. Griffin's gone from a defensive liability to a solid, and sometimes pretty good, defender. Besides, Lee's teammates aren't exactly pikers. They're 22-10, and Lee has Curry and Jack feeding him and spreading the floor, so it's not like Lee's had to do it all on his own.

Here are five players better than Griffin: LeBron, Durant, Paul, Westbrook, James Harden. And Carmelo didn't even make that list and his PER is over four points higher than Griffin's right now...

I specifically excluded guards and swingmen in my post. (I guess LeBron can count, but LeBron sort of defies categorization.) If I were to make a list of the best players in the league...

James
Durant
Paul
Bryant
Anthony
Harden
Duncan
Howard (when healthy)

And after that, I can see an argument for Griffin. Maybe he's not in the top 10, but I'm having a hard time leaving him out.

On a completely different note, as a Warriors fan I wonder where the other Warriors fans who were so up in arms over the Ellis trade are now (not that there were any as I recall on this site, more in the general sense). Classic addition by subtraction. Getting Bogut back eventually possibly some day is pure gravy.

I was ok with the Ellis trade. The move that sent me into Warriors hibernation after putting up their ineptitude my entire life was, ironically, the Lee signing. I hatged two things about that signing: 1. Lee's lack of defense 2. The timing. They were just about to sell the team and then they signed Lee to that humongous contract which just infuriated me. I wanted the old admin flushed out and new people brought in and then, before the new people could be brought in, the Warriors crippled them with the Lee signing. At least that was my logic at the time. After suffering through Cohan's attempt to kill the team that was just too much for me. As a Warriors junky I couldn't help but watch the from afar, though, so when they hired Mark Jackson that just also seemed like sheer idiocy. That seemed like a very dumb Warriors thing to do but I've been proven to be very wrong on that one as Jackson is the first coach since I started following the team in 1980 that has instilled some kind of defensive plan. Mark Jackson! So, yeah, getting rid of Ellis was a brilliant move even though I think of Bogut as a lottery ticket at this point. I'm never optimistic about big men with foot or ankle problems. If he does come back, then jeez, the Warriors will have the best team I've ever seen to make a playoff run. That is just crazy to think about. After 32 years they finally may have a real team. We've had fun teams before, but never anything like this.

Via @treykerby of TBJ, one more reason to shake your head at the Bulls announcers.

Bear in mind with the Warriors they've played one of the league's easiest schedules so far. Still, though, everyone's points generally stand. I also like having a good Warriors team around - top five playoff crowds there, fun to watch.

[78] What's great about it, is not only don't they get it, they kind of give Gibson a half-hearted defense on the second foul: "Hey, this is the NBA, he's just trying to deny the ball!" No, he's intentionally fouling, but you don't get it.

Nice win by NY last night over a tired SA team. Amar'e had no ups. His shot got blocked by everyone from Gary Neal to the Fat Man. I remain in love with the way J.R. Smith is playing. Prigioni was good as well.

I know my girlfriend is a kind soul, because she didn't murder me last night while I was playing with the Stacey King soundboard last night.

http://www.nba.com/bulls/stacey-king-soundboard.html

That boy is good Funk!

Via @treykerby of TBJ, one more reason to shake your head at the Bulls announcers.

Thankfully I missed watching that game (totally forgot about the 2pm local start on New Year's Day). Oddly enough, Stacey King has noticably improved this year. Maybe it's because the team just isn't that exciting or expected to be that good, but he's toned down his act* and has actually spent a fair amount of time being an analyst. Funk has gotten worse (or maybe it's just he seems worse next to a less bad King), and he's misidentifying players, plays, and calls more often than ever now.

In a very weak attempt at defending them, it's the first time ever I've seen Thibs use the hack-a strategy and it probably completely caught them off guard.

*Not sure the last time that soundboard was updated, but I had a ton of fun with that during the 2011 playoffs.

@kobebryant: The antisocial has become social #mambatweets

@kobebryant: The antisocial has become social #mambatweets

39min. 54K followers and counting...

So...do the end of game hackathons bug anyone? Does this happen less in the NBA than in college ball?

In the college game, it seems so bad it's a broken aspect of the game. I guess the argument would be if a team makes its free throws, it's not a problem. But I just hate the clock stopping so much, the interruption to the flow of the game. I guess it doesn't bother basketball fans...except I used to be a big basketball fan but this is a big reason I can only take so much now.

Would the NBA rule where timeouts allow you to advance the ball to half court help the college game in this respect? I guess the fouling would just continue.

Would it be so bad to impose a harsher penalties on fouls in the backcourt with 2 minutes or less remaining? Like, make them all 2 shots with possession of the ball? When teams press, it doesn't seem like they unintentionally foul that often.

On a completely different note, as a Warriors fan I wonder where the other Warriors fans who were so up in arms over the Ellis trade are now (not that there were any as I recall on this site, more in the general sense). Classic addition by subtraction. Getting Bogut back eventually possibly some day is pure gravy.

It was a plus just not to have to listen to the insufferable Bob Fitzgerald try to make the point during broadcasts that Ellis was an "All-Star" every frickin year.

And for the record I am just happy as a Warriors fan to have someone like Lee that can rebound and score because for the longest time it seemed like we could only have one or the other and not both thanks to Nelson.

In the college game, it seems so bad it's a broken aspect of the game. I guess the argument would be if a team makes its free throws, it's not a problem. But I just hate the clock stopping so much, the interruption to the flow of the game. I guess it doesn't bother basketball fans...except I used to be a big basketball fan but this is a big reason I can only take so much now.

I think NBA teams are more confident in their ability to get stops. Anecdotally, I watched the Nuggets play straight up defense against the Wolves down 5 with 40 seconds to go last night.

In the college game, it seems so bad it's a broken aspect of the game. I guess the argument would be if a team makes its free throws, it's not a problem.

Without looking at the numbers, I'm reasonably sure no college player has ever hit a free throw in the history of the NCAA in a close and late situation. So, perhaps unfortunately depending on your view, I think it's the right strategy to foul.

Along the same lines as Kobe Bryant on Twitter, Phil Jackson and Jeannie Buss are now engaged.

Maybe we can have a discussion of the best-dressed guys in the NBA or something.

UCLA is starting to do better; I saw part of their win over Cal.

I've also assumed it has something to do with the shot clock being 11 seconds shorter in the NBA, so there are more possessions to be had.

And I would also think that in college, since you have the 1 and 1 before 10 fouls,s o teams are probably more willing to foul if one missed shot gets them the ball back as opposed to having to face 2 no matter what

FT shooting at the end of games was the first topic in the original NBA Thread (RIP, big guy). I guess this means there's nothing more to talk about. Unless robin wants to start linking to his NBA fashion blog. Quick question, does wanting to go by another name fall under your blog's coverage, robin?

This might be better than fashion, although since the newest entry is "JR Smith's girlfriend K Michelle and the new booty shot" it may be NSFW.

www.playerwives.com/teams/nba/

As to the link in 91, if the player in question is serious, that will immediately make him one of my favorite players. But I assume he was just joking around.

And for the record I am just happy as a Warriors fan to have someone like Lee that can rebound and score because for the longest time it seemed like we could only have one or the other and not both thanks to Nelson.

What I remember mostly about Nelson and the post Nelson influenced years is that we've had guys who could rebound and score but they were superficial/not valuable because the scoring was low-percentage volume jumpshooting and the rebounding was all garbage defensive rebounding. Guys like Troy Murphy and Jamison come to mind, but Jamison was a pretty good offensive rebounder

Maybe we can have a discussion of the best-dressed guys in the NBA or something.

Worst dressed would be funnier. I suspect draft day uniforms from the 80's would make up a lot of the nominees.

I always thought Jordan's sense of style throughout his career and even after was...amusing.

Daequan Cook has been released and is going to sign with the Bulls

Asked if Garnett apologized, Hansbrough said: "KG apologize? Are you from here?"

I always thought Jordan's sense of style throughout his career and even after was...amusing.

Say one thing for Jordan, he could wear bright shiny neon blue or green or that orange-pink-red wash like no one else.

some fun with numbers from tonight's sixers game:

FT/FTAs:
oklahoma city: 21/27
kevin durant: 9/10
nick young: 6/8
the entire rest of the sixers roster: 0/0

Asked if Garnett apologized, Hansbrough said: "KG apologize? Are you from here?"

I'll take KG's side this time, that didn't look intentional. Good quote though. Of course, I can't see Hansbrough's name or face and not think of this.

---

Of course the Bulls won in Miami last night. Of course they outrebounded them by 20 (15 on offense). Which only makes me wonder what the heck happened the last week during their mini-slump - it's shocking to see a Thibs team coast for that long. And of course, the win only makes me wonder what could have been last season... Bulls and Heat just match up so well, it's almost guaranteed to be a close game (Bulls are 7-6 against MIA since the Big 3 signed/Bulls got Thibs).

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