moses

ok

What are these insane trade rumors with Howard going to NJ, Kevin Love going to LAL, and Lopez going to Minnesota? Has Love's stock fallen that much that the Wolves would be happy to exchange him for Lopez? That seems way off to me.

Those rumors started with the Nets. Unless the Wolves had already traded Pekovic, that trade would be even dumber than it looks on its face. I will say that the problem with Lopez is health, not performance. His return to form and ability to stay in the lineup has been what has made the Nets good this year, and it is where I was most wrong in projecting them.

so i go to basketball reference and pull up per which sounds like a reasonable stat and list the point guards in descending order

chris paul
russell westbrook
tony parker
kyle lowery (limited time)
kyrie irving
jose calderon
stephen curry
kemba walker
jrue holiday
rajon rondo
deron williams
brandon jennings

This list seems incomplete, Eric Bledsoe, Ramon Sessions and John Wall are all higher as well. Wall and Bledsoe are both younger than Jennings.

This list seems incomplete, Eric Bledsoe, Ramon Sessions and John Wall are all higher as well. Wall and Bledsoe are both younger than Jennings.

I hate to be so predictable, but I'd at least consider Rubio.

Mike Conley belongs on that list, too. I'd take him above Jennings and I like Jennings.

Not sure I agree with your assessment of Kemba, Moses. He has made strides this year and seems to be starting to understand where he can get his shot. He has a chance to have a Jason Terry career, although I concede your point about his defense.

Those rumors started with the Nets.

That sounds right. Does that trade really work for anyone other than the Nets? Love doesn't seem like the player the Lakers need at all, particularly with D'Antoni in the fold, and what's the compelling reason why Minnesota would prefer Lopez over Love, unless if they're firing an extreme advance shot about Love leaving. (Though I agree Lopez seems to have greatly improved this year - given Love's injury woes and the fact that he's just not a great shooter, I think they're a lot closer in value than people think.)

####, yes, add Rubio and Conley ahead of Jennings. Bledsoe could be, but I would still like to see more out of him. I would not consider Sessions ahead of Jennings.

I was a little quick to dismiss Kemba. I hadn't realized he'd been *that* good this year. He's definitely been better than Jennings offensively. So now I don't know who'd I'd prefer between the 2 of them.

list courtesy of basketball reference website. there were guys with much fewer minutes listed who i did not include

and i went by designation of point guard. maybe site had some players listed incorrecly

or i read incorrectly

No, you read fine. Just the limitations of picking one stat.

Rubio was hurt (coming back from an ACL), so he hasn't played all season and hasn't been great yet. Conley's PER is a little lower than Jennings, but the main reason Jennings is higher is because of usage (Jennings plays 3 more minutes a game and shoots/scores more) and PER doesn't include defense (IMO, Conley is better). Overrating usage is one of the main criticisms of PER.

Wall was also hurt, so his minutes are lower. Bledsoe backs up Paul, so he's obviously not playing as much.

####, yes, add Rubio and Conley ahead of Jennings. Bledsoe could be, but I would still like to see more out of him. I would not consider Sessions ahead of Jennings.

I was a little quick to dismiss Kemba. I hadn't realized he'd been *that* good this year. He's definitely been better than Jennings offensively. So now I don't know who'd I'd prefer between the 2 of them.

By ahead on my comment I meant purely by PER. As for who I'd take over Jennings, I agree no to Sessions, but yes to Conley. Rubio has been poor this year, but was better last year, mostly because his defense. Bledsoe's minutes have been limited because of Paul, but he might be best defensive PG in the league, his block/steal/rebound numbers are insane for a guy his size, pretty much completely unprecedented in the history of the NBA and he's a good defender beyond those stats as well.

Kemba seems more a like a small SG, but he's been good this year.

Jennings is pretty good though, he's young and he's improved since coming into the league. Just a lot of good PGs right now.

Damian Lillard is another interesting one. It's his rookie year, but he's been really good so far.

Kemba seems more a like a small SG, but he's been good this year.

That was my initial thought as well, but his AST rate is actually higher than Jennings this year (both guys are higher than Irving).

So, uh, which starting PGs would get traded for Jennings in a heartbeat?

Love doesn't seem like the player the Lakers need at all, particularly with D'Antoni in the fold

He actually does. A long-range threat who also boards and is a good passer, in a system that de-emphasizes defense? That's got D'Antoni all over it. The thing with Love is that his skill set is good for so many teams, including Minny. There's no reason why they'd even consider trading Love right now.

(Though I agree Lopez seems to have greatly improved this year - given Love's injury woes and the fact that he's just not a great shooter, I think they're a lot closer in value than people think.)

I don't trust Lopez. You can't question his offensive value, but I don't trust his health, I don't trust his rebounding, and I don't trust his defense. You need pretty great perimeter defensive players to make up for defensive weakness at center contend for championships, and it's the rare team that has that.

So, uh, which starting PGs would get traded for Jennings in a heartbeat?

Going just off of talent (not contract or a team's scheme), I'd say: Chalmers, Jameer Nelson, Jeff Teague/Devin Harris, Ray Felton (probably), Brandin Knight, possibly George Hill, possibly Jeremy Lin, Darren Collison, Greivis Vasquez (probably), Mo Williams, Isaiah Thomas, possibly Dragic.

We forgot to mention Lawson on the list of guys who are better than him.

I don't trust Lopez. You can't question his offensive value, but I don't trust his health, I don't trust his rebounding, and I don't trust his defense. You need pretty great perimeter defensive players to make up for defensive weakness at center contend for championships, and it's the rare team that has that.

Yes, he is playing better, but trading for him now would be an archetypal "buy high" mistake.

You think getting Lopez now is buying high?

You think getting Lopez now is buying high?

In terms of on-court value, for sure. He hasn't played this well and remained healthy this long in, what, four years?

I'd argue that this is definitely his best year, but he's only 24 and not doing anything that seemed out of his skillset.

The point guard discussion makes it pretty clear we are in a good time for the PG. Jennings is a fine PG and no one is saying he isn't, but wow are there a bunch of as good and better PG out there. I love PG play, so I am a happy BBall fan. If only I had time to watch more games.

Greivis Vasquez

Wow. I didn't know he had a starting PG job. Yikes.

The point guard discussion makes it pretty clear we are in a good time for the PG. Jennings is a fine PG and no one is saying he isn't, but wow are there a bunch of as good and better PG out there.

This is what I find interesting -- he's very talented, but its looking like he's a below median starter. I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.

GV's having a very nice, albeit erratic, season. They'd take Jennings in a heartbeat.

I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.

I think it means, in part, that the job on offense has gotten easier (in the absolute sense) - what with no handchecking and all. Mind you, what matters is relative performance - right?

I'd argue that this is definitely his best year, but he's only 24 and not doing anything that seemed out of his skillset.

I am more concerned about his health, but you make a good point that his age is a big factor in his favor.

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.

The main problem the Bucks have is they have two guards who take the bulk of their shots and are inefficient scorers. It's basically like having two Iverson-lites in your backcourt - when those guys are both on, they are a blast to watch, but it makes it very hard to construct a team around them that will win. They are also very thin - Marquis Daniels has started 16 games this season! I like Dunleavy in his role, at least. Sanders D helps somewhat, and it goes a long way to making their defense as good as it is without a guard who can, well, guard.

As for Jennings' future - again, he's another in this class of Tyreke Evans type guys who need the ball in their hands to succeed but aren't consistent or efficient enough scorers for their teams to be successful with them in that role. Jennings has to go one of three ways - he has to figure out a way to score more efficiently (his 3P% imporvement this year not withstanding, hard to see that happening), or he needs to develop better playmaking skills (seems even less likely), OR, ideally, on a contender, he's a guy who comes off the bench for instant offense. He gives you 24 points in 30 minutes on the nights he's on, but when he's not, you don't have to give him 30 minutes. He also needs (ideally) to be paired with a taller guard who is better defensively - so, not Monta Ellis, basically.

Basically, if he's your starting point guard, I think your team is going to be limited unless you have just the right other pieces around him.

I was also surprised at how well Kemba was doing this year. Wow. But Moses is right - that guy will never be a good defender in the NBA.

Finally, I would also consider trading for Brook Lopez right now as buying high.

This is what I find interesting -- he's very talented, but its looking like he's a below median starter. I'm not sure what it means to have overall league talent at that high of a level...other than that being a very good thing for the NBA.

I think he is right around the middle. He scores a lot, so he looks superficially better than he really is. His biggest weakness is defense, which is a perpetually underrated part of the game. Is he better than an average starting PG from a prior era? If so, is it by a bigger margin than the average starter at another position compared to that of the corresponding era? I don't know, maybe, but the usual red flags about misperceiving a player are very present with him.

Again, feel like I should say that I like Jennings.

OR, ideally, on a contender, he's a guy who comes off the bench for instant offense. He gives you 24 points in 30 minutes on the nights he's on, but when he's not, you don't have to give him 30 minutes. He also needs (ideally) to be paired with a taller guard who is better defensively - so, not Monta Ellis, basically.

You're describing Jamal Crawford, but smaller. I think he could excel in that role.

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.

Link. Knicks and Lakers over $1 billion. Knicks $83mil in profit by their calcs. Teams in the red: Portland, Philly ($0.8mil), Memphis, Minny, Hawks ($19mil - the high), Charlotte and Milwaukee ($0.5mil).

The average operating income (earnings before interest, taxes, depreciation and amortization) for the league’s 30 teams during the lockout-shortened 2011-12 season was $11.9 million, the most since Forbes began tracking the finances of NBA teams in 1998.

The NBA’s record profitability last season was a function of the new CBA and player costs (owners’ biggest expense) being slashed 20% due to the 66-game season. Yet revenues only fell 7% as teams were locked into long-term media and sponsorship deals that in many cases did not require teams to refund any money from lost games.

Wow.

Greivis Vasquez



Wow. I didn't know he had a starting PG job. Yikes.

3rd in the league in assists this year! He was a hell of a college player-a big guard and a fierce competitor.

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.

the sixers were just sold about a year and a half ago, and if they sold the team again right now, they'd make ~$130 million in profit.

You're describing Jamal Crawford, but smaller. I think he could excel in that role.

Exactly, Moses. Or Nate Robinson for the '10 Celtics. Or JR Smith, ideally.

Greivis Vasquez

I like Vasques a lot. He's not the athlete a bunch of the other aforementioned guards are, but he's smart, he doesn't get rattled, and he can hit an open 3. I don't know that you can contend for a title with him as your starting PG, but you can certainly be respectable with him.

Lakers getting blown out in Memphis, and now even the refs don't respect them. Has there ever been a team that's fallen so short of expectations? I can't think of one.

mchale - awful coaching again, running harden into the ground when the team's down 20 most of the 4th quarter. and stopped the passing/picking in the 2nd half.

didn't watch the lakers game - how bad was howard's injury? it would be pretty funny if orlando winds up the winner in that deal from last year.

Crazy ending to Bulls/Pistons game. Bulls down 17 in the 3rd, come all the way back. Tied game under 10 seconds left, Bellinelli takes a bad jumper from about 20 feet on the baseline, way short. Noah somehow saves the rebound - looks like he was trying to hit it off a Piston - right to Bellinelli for a layup and 1. I have no idea how Noah didn't land out or how he kept the ball from hitting the ground. Tough loss for the Pistons.

Jimmy Butler with another good game - 46!!!min, 18pts, 9reb, 4ast, only 1 TO (and a steal and block).

I was impressed with what I saw of Drummond - raw, but great rebounder already and moves well for someone his size.

mchale - awful coaching again, running harden into the ground when the team's down 20 most of the 4th quarter. and stopped the passing/picking in the 2nd half.

They need to stop putting Harden in so much that's for sure. he turned it over 7 times this game, meanwhile, in a rare game where both Patterson and Morris actually played pretty well, they decided to keep both's playing time down while Parson couldn't hit any shots .

Also, Greg Smith actually DIDN't run into foul trouble this game but they kept Asik in basically 3/4 of the game, why?

I guess McHale's main concern is that Harden doesn't technically have a backup? who the F cares? just put in Lin + Douglas or Beverly or Delfino, most of the team is sort of the multi purpose type anyway.

They need to have a better plan B / C for their half court set, right now it's.... pass it to Harden and everyone waits for the corner 3 95% of the time (and it's not like they have several Ray Allens out there)

because asik is the key to their defense?

Zach Lowe and Bill Simmons discuss the Lakers.

I have been deliberately staying off the thread, and, obviously, the Lakers have a massive, gunky web of interrelated problems. But with almost everybody, including even the players now, it seems, focused on the Goetterdammerung aspects of the narrative, I have one basic point that I want to make. The main tangible, specific issue is still the perimeter defense. Memphis is #2 in the NBA in DRTG; Chicago is #4, so the fact that the Lakers couldn’t score that much against them is not that surprising, but these are teams that you can actually beat scoring 80-90. Both of them are below average in ORTG (19th and 20th) and have at times struggled mightily to score. Memphis lost 82-81 to Indiana at home on Monday; Chicago barely beat Detroit 85-82 tonight at home.

But against the Lakers, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Nate Robinson, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, and Troy Wroten all had good-to-very good-to great games. Belinelli and Robinson are good bench scorers, Bayless is OK as backup 1, and Conley is a pretty good starting 1. But none of them is as good as the Lakers made each of them look, and both Chicago and Memphis each sailed past their usual ORTGs playing the Lakers.

This draws a line under three things:

1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.
2. Kupchak’s inability to provide the Lakers with decent backup perimeter players. Whether Meeks is more of a D’Antoni or a Kupchak problem is debatable, but either way, Meeks has not been as helpful as I had hoped he would be.
3. That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history” comes with a real downside, particularly when your starting 3 is 33, and and your best bigs are a slow 32-year-old and a guy with a bad shoulder and a bad back.

There is more to it--OREBs, TOs. But I think it starts with perimeter D.

But against the Lakers, Kirk Hinrich, Marco Belinelli, Nate Robinson, Mike Conley, Jerryd Bayless, and Troy Wroten all had good-to-very good-to great games. Belinelli and Robinson are good bench scorers, Bayless is OK as backup 1, and Conley is a pretty good starting 1. But none of them is as good as the Lakers made each of them look, and both Chicago and Memphis each sailed past their usual ORTGs playing the Lakers.

This draws a line under three things:

1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.
2. Kupchak’s inability to provide the Lakers with decent backup perimeter players. Whether Meeks is more of a D’Antoni or a Kupchak problem is debatable, but either way, Meeks has not been as helpful as I had hoped he would be.
3. That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history” comes with a real downside, particularly when your starting 3 is 33, and and your best bigs are a slow 32-year-old and a guy with a bad shoulder and a bad back.

One of the most interesting things to me about the Lakers season so far is how much Nash is let off the hook- he isn't even mentioned by name in this post. Instead, #1 is D'Antoni's poor coaching of the defense...as if 2-3 guys that are terrible on defense are somehow terrible as a result of his coaching. I mean, Hinrich (who is LONG GONE) had a career game with Nash guarding him...yet it's D'Antoni's fault. No Laker's fan wants to discuss Kobe's defense either...it's all D'Antoni and Howard's fault.

One of the most interesting things to me about the Lakers season so far is how much Nash is let off the hook- he isn't even mentioned by name in this post. Instead, #1 is D'Antoni's poor coaching of the defense...as if 2-3 guys that are terrible on defense are somehow terrible as a result of his coaching. I mean, Hinrich (who is LONG GONE) had a career game with Nash guarding him...yet it's D'Antoni's fault. No Laker's fan wants to discuss Kobe's defense either...it's all D'Antoni and Howard's fault.

That as cool as it sounded, having what I and others noted in preseason is “the oldest starting backcourt in NBA history”

Who exactly did you think I was talking about in that sentence? Further, I mentioned, by name, every opposing backcourt player on Memphis and Chicago who torched the Lakers, starting with Hinrich. I kind of figured that people would make the connection.

Also, I have specifically talked about Kobe's D here on the thread more than once, I linked to and endorsed a Zach Lowe piece calling out Kobe on his D, and as to the fans, the guys who run the SB Nation and True Hoop Lakers blogs both ran lengthy pieces, with video, specifically talking about how bad Kobe's defense has been. On the Lakers blog I hang out at, people talk about Kobe's D, along with all the other problems, pretty much every day.

Finally, of course, the entire post was about perimeter D--and had nothing to do with Howard.

A lot of Lakers fans are of course pissed off at Howard, and to some extent rightly so. My point, however, was that I think perimeter D is the worst of all the problems--which obviously means Kobe and Nash, among others. People are mad at D'Antoni because he seems to be making the team's weaknesses worse (and because he is not Phil).

Forbes released its franchise valuations today. the average team is worth 30% more than it was a year ago as the lockout was coming to an end.

To be fair, the Dow/Nasdaq/S&P 500 have all had similar increases during the last year (especially if you go September-September; a 15-20% increase is basically the norm for that time period.) A lot of the change may just be the economy getting better.

Edit: I'm sort of impressed that the Warriors have improved enough that beating two of the Western powers back to back doesn't even merit a comment.

Edit: I'm sort of impressed that the Warriors have improved enough that beating two of the Western powers back to back doesn't even merit a comment.

Something I was wondering while watching last night's NBAtv doubleheader, which team deserves to be taken more seriously, Warriors or Nuggets and why? At this point, it's clear that LAC, SAS and OKC are the class of the WC with MEM-GSW-DEN a level below (I suppose some might have MEM on a middle tier by themselves) so how do people sort it out?

636 - i didn't mind smith not playing so much because asik was the only way to (somewhat) keep denver's bigs off the board. i also didn't mind parsons so much, since houston's got four players with significant upside (parsons, lin, harden, asik) and don't mind them playing through bad games, if they're playing 28-32 minutes each.

only problem is that mchale is quicker on lin than larussa with a platoon situation, and asik often doesn't get to play through his bad games. and everything else you said is spot-on.

about the dow/stock valuations - part of that also is because the fed rates / interest rates are so low. when times don't look terrible and rates are low, money travels to anything that looks like it might be a decent investment.

kobe wasn't looking good on defense the past couple years; what i'd see is someone who could pump it up for a couple plays and play really good defense, but mainly looked as if he was either saving himself (for offense) or just was getting older. no idea which, but kobe the-all-world defender is long gone.

and no fan of d'antoni (i think he's only marginally better than mchale) but the lakers bench roster (as stated above) is awful. you've got an old starting unit (when gasol was starting), and you know that they're going to need quality backups OR good youthful sparkplugs, and have neither. chris duhon? jamison and meeks should be the lower end of what they get off the bench, not the higher end. kobe can't run 38 every night, and nash shouldn't be running more than 30.

I agree with robin about the Lakers D. I saw a comment yesterday from Pau where he said basically the same thing: their single biggest problem is their defense. Sure, the talent is old or sucky, so that makes it hard to play D. But the blame for D'Antoni rests on at least two common complaints: they're not slowing the game down to help relieve some pressure on their D, and he's not making situational adjustments that might help the defense. To put it another way: were the Lakers playing better defense under Brown than they are now?

I remain a huge Pau fan. I just don't know how you run this guy's psyche and game into the ground the way LA seems to have done. He is going to help you win/get better, even limited as he is now. He is not the problem. I'd kinda like to see Dwight out for 6 games while they play Pau at C and see what happens.

I also feel for D'Antoni a bit. His interviews read more and more like every other coach. The humor is straining under the weight of unmet expectations, I guess.

1. As noted ad nauseum in many quarters, D’Antoni’s poor coaching, both in terms of the D and arguably WRT usage of Meeks.


ESPN's really pushing the narrative that D'Antoni is the reason for everything, and if Phil were around this team would challenge OKC. Because what the Lakers need now is another huge ego that's more concerned with his money and off court issues while only working part time.

What's really amusing is every analyst and coach they bring on says the same thing: The D is terrible, Dwight and Nash are hurt, they haven't played together enough and D'Antoni needs to adjust.

A basketball observation not related to the NBA. NCAA ball is horrible to watch. Too many teams are winning without hitting 60. If you can't score 60 with a shot clock and 3's, you don't deserve a W.

I think it's useful to point out that everyone expected that the Nash-Bryant combo would not be good defensively. Not only that, but the Lakers were only a mediocre defensive team last year with an aging Pau and MWP (Def Rtg: 104.4, 13th of 30) and the entire point of bringing in Howard was to have his all-world defense make up for the overall team defensive slide. Obviously, Howard's health has affected his defense, but his attitude has been rightfully criticized. I'd like to see the Lakers trade him. He's a Hall-of-Fame level player when he's healthy, but damn, he's just too hard to root for. Coming from someone who roots for Kobe Bryant, that's saying a lot.

ESPN's really pushing the narrative that D'Antoni is the reason for everything, and if Phil were around this team would challenge OKC

--

Some fans are falling back on that as well, and it is obviously wrong. People, me included, overrated this roster. This team was based on the premise that the Core Four could play at recent levels and play well together; they have not been up to it, either mentally or physically, and that has exposed the rest of the team. A lot of that is not MDA's fault.

But at the same time, JC is correct. I backed the Pringles hire, but I specifically said, in more or less these words both here and and at a Lakers blog, that "I think D'Antoni will be smart enough to make some adjustments." I think he has kind of tried to do that, but I really haven't seen enough of it. The pace is too fast; the D is bad in large part due to athletic limitations, but also has execution and intensity problems. Some of that has to fall on the coach.

In Phoenix, MDA had Golden Retriever Nash and four greyhounds. Here, he has an older Nash and a Doberman, an Afghan, a Pit bull, and a Mastiff with a bad shoulder, as well as several shelter mutts. He needs to run the kennel diffently.