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Wednesday, May 01, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - May 2013

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posted on May 01, 2013 at 01:53 PM by Athletic Supporter gangnam style to basketball, nba, off-topic | 1283 comment(s)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about straight NBA players, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what this site is really about: gay NBA players and craft beer.

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201. Booey posted on February 08, 2013 at 09:51 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

flip

202. Maxwn posted on February 08, 2013 at 10:01 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

This is more what I want to hear from Lionel Hollins:

Lionel pregame today

If he'll shake this off and get them back to work, I think they'll be fine. Probably a lot of us fans and the local media were reading too much into a couple of losses and some of his comments.

203. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

posted on February 08, 2013 at 10:21 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

LAKERS WIN! LAKERS WIN! OH MY GOD THE LAKERS WIN!

204. Booey posted on February 08, 2013 at 10:33 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

LAKERS WIN! LAKERS WIN! OH MY GOD THE LAKERS WIN!

Damning with faint praise to be sure, but the Lakers can only dream of matching the 'Cats level of suckitude.

205. robinred

posted on February 08, 2013 at 10:40 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Beating 11-38 Charlotte is obviously nothing to get excited about, but the Lakers didn't quit even though I think many Lakers fans thought that they would, and Howard, who has been taking a lot of crap (not here, but in LakerLand) played well on D in the second half. They are 4-2 on the trip, with the Miami game still to go.

As to the Memphis deal, I think trading Gay makes some sense from a purely analytical perspective, but I think it is also quite understandable that Hollins and the core players would see Gay as a crucial part of the team and react to it emotionally. They did, of course, pull off the big upset over San Antonio that put them on the NBA map without him--something for all concerned to remember, perhaps.

206. Spivey posted on February 09, 2013 at 12:25 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Carlos Boozer is a tough customer when his 17 foot jumper is falling.

207. Meatwads stronger now, ready for the house posted on February 09, 2013 at 02:18 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

A nice win for the bulls to finish up the road trip, didn't watch it but any win is a nice one on the road

208. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 02:56 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Lebron had himself a nice little night: 30pts, 9/11FG, 4/5 from 3, 8/11FT, 5reb, 6ast, 2blk
So did Harden: 35pts, 13/16FG, 4/5 from 3, 5/6FT, 7reb, 11ast

That LeBron shoots "only" 74% from the line is his only real weakness.

209. PJ Martinez posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:59 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

STATS gave Grantland a bunch of data, and Zach Lowe wrote it up.

210. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 11:18 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

LAC 35-17
DEN 32-18
MEM 31-18

EDIT: In other news, MIA has moved up to tied for 10th in D-Rtg, which is the first time they've been in the Top 10 this season, I believe.

211. you got a STEAGLES? you're gonna need a STEAGLES. posted on February 09, 2013 at 06:07 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

STATS gave Grantland a bunch of data, and Zach Lowe wrote it up.

That’s the thing about Durant: Scroll through these categories one by one, and you'll say to yourself, “He should be doing this particular thing more often!” Then you realize you’ve said that for every category — drives, post-ups, elbow touches — and you just shake your head.

212. PJ Martinez posted on February 09, 2013 at 06:41 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I don't know if this means anything, other than just that Garnett is, as everyone knows, a great, great player, but: "Garnett is the only player ever with at least 25,000 career points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 blocks and 1,500 steals."

213. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 07:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Which of those stats are most exclusive for Garnett? The assists and steals separate him from other bigs, the rebounds and blocks from wings?

Is Hakeem the best other all-around comparable? Hakeem has > 25000 points, 12500 rebounds, 3000 assists, 2000 steals and 3500 blocks

214. robinred

posted on February 09, 2013 at 08:44 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Garnett IMO is a bit underappreciated by casual fans and the MSM, for three reasons:

1. He doesn't have nearly as much jewelry as Duncan and Bryant have.
2. A lot of people think he's a serious ########.
3. His best skill is probably team defense, which is IMO the least-understood and least-discussed aspect of the game in many quarters.

215. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:01 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I guess casual fans may not use bb-ref ELO rater, and the advanced stats presented there probably work in Garnett's favor. Here's the top 20, Garnett is 10th. Duncan is 7th, Kobe is 55th. Russell is probably way underrated at 20 though. Garnett, by this popular rating, doesn't look too far off. Is there an argument for him as a top-5 all-time player?

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Larry Bird
Julius Erving
LeBron James
Oscar Robertson
Tim Duncan
Karl Malone
David Robinson
Kevin Garnett
Moses Malone
John Havlicek
Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
Patrick Ewing
Elvin Hayes
Chris Paul
Scottie Pippen
Clyde Drexler
Bill Russell

216. Eric J can SABER all he wants to posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Garnett IMO is a bit underappreciated by casual fans and the MSM, for three reasons:

1. He doesn't have nearly as much jewelry as Duncan and Bryant have.

Garnett and Bryant seem like an interesting comparison to me, as a casual-at-best fan. Kobe, as mentioned, has an ever-so-slight advantage in titles won, but he's also had better supporting casts. KG's '03-'04, taking a team whose second- and third-best players appear to be Cassell and Sprewell to the 1 seed and the conference finals, seems like it should be worth at least as much as one of Kobe's titles alongside Shaq.

So how would some people who know a lot more basketball than I do rank Kobe/Duncan/Garnett against each other?

217. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:10 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

FWIW, there was a pretty extensive Garnett/Duncan discussion at some point. At least once :) Not that I wouldn't rehash it and throw Kobe in.

Also, their careers aren't over yet - I wouldn't be surprised by one of them surprising us.

218. bigboy1234 posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:13 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Duncan
Garnett
Kobe

I can see the argument for KG over TD if someone wanted to make it, but Kobe is clearly last for me and I personally think a tier below the other two. Most fans will likely tell you Kobe is the best and definitely better than Garnett though.

219. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:16 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Garnett playing for Popovich alongside Robinson, Bowen, et.al. on D, and Robinson, Parker and Ginobili on O would be a lot of fun to watch.

Edit: I think some of the Duncan > Garnett is "ringzzzz", which again goes back to teammates. I wonder how much perception swings if Garnett wins that second title with the Celtics.

220. bigboy1234 posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:26 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

In reference to #219, my ranking of TD over KG has nothing to do with "ringzzzz" and anyone who uses championships to determine how good a player is, isn't the brightest bulb in my opinion. This also coming from someone who thinks Manu is one of the most underrated players of his time. I also think Robinson is underrated and should be thought of on that same tier as TD/KG in my opinion.

221. robinred

posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:31 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Kobe is 55th

I think that is probably in part because of people making a point of voting against him, and I would also think that ELO rater is, as you suggest, a geek thing more than cazh fan thing.

222. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:31 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

[221] What's your reasoning for Duncan over Garnett? I really don't have a good idea of how to compare them to one another. I'm asking here, not arguing a point one way or another.

Duncan certainly has done a good job of deflecting reputation from his teammates, for whatever that's worth, positive or negative.

Edit: I'll admit, I have some ringzzz bias in my own thinking.

223. robinred

posted on February 09, 2013 at 09:40 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Duncan and Garnett are actually pretty even on most of the basic metrics. They have a BaskRef Sim Score of 90.4, and are third on each other's lists.

224. you got a STEAGLES? you're gonna need a STEAGLES. posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:11 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

i'd just like to point out that of the duncan/parker/ginobili triumvirate, parker scores the most points, gets the most assists, and shoots at the highest percentage. i think he is pretty clearly the best of the three at this point in each of their careers.

225. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:23 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

226. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I was recently discussing TD/KG/Kobe with a buddy of mine. After thinking it through I was certain of a couple things: (1) TD was the best of the 3 (2) KG/Kobe is going to depend on how you rate their defense/clutch/ringz. I think ringz matter in the NBA. I also think clutch does as well. My head says KG wins, but it doesn't feel "right."

227. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:25 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Huh. I keep thinking Tony Parker should be getting old by now. He's only 30. He's going to end up with a lot of counting stats by the time he's done.

228. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:33 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I also think clutch does as well.

I think there's value in playing a style that allows one to be "clutch" -- that is, getting your "best" player able to create their own shots when it matters.

229. robinred

posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:34 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

As smileyy said, we have talked about this before. If I were starting a franchise, and I could pick one of Bryant, Garnett, or Duncan, each 20 years old, I would probably take Duncan, since he anchors your D in a way that Bryant can't, and long-haul I would rather have his personality at the center of my team than Garnett's.

If I am bringing one of them onto an existing team, it depends on who else is on my roster and what my coaching hire options are.

Also, Nowitzki is not at all far behind Duncan and Garnett in terms of many of the basic metrics.

230. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:37 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think there's value in playing a style that allows one to be "clutch" -- that is, getting your "best" player able to create their own shots when it matters.

Yeah, this is what I meant.

231. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:42 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Really hope I'm not forgetting anyone, but these are pretty much the Top 6 guys to come into the league in the mid-late '90s, right?

EDIT: Looking through my link, still sure TD is the best of the era. Also sure that Pierce is 6 and Nash is 5. Bringing up Dirk just further complicates what is now a Kobe/Dirk/KG toss-up.

232. smileyy posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:44 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

rr - Is there something about Garnett's personality that prevents team-building? I haven't heard a rep for alienating teammates or burning out coaches, and he was certainly the face of Boston coming together in their championship season. "Team cohesiveness" credit is hard to separate between Popovich and Duncan, too.

In my head, I'm still writing Garnett/Robinson/Popovich fan-fiction.

Maybe the differentiating stat is Crazy-Eye-Glares Above Replacement? Nope. Too close to call there too.

233. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:47 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Is there something about Garnett's personality that prevents team-building?

Don't think he's saying there's anything necessarily "wrong" just that his preference is Duncan's.

234. you got a STEAGLES? you're gonna need a STEAGLES. posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

rr - Is there something about Garnett's personality that prevents team-building? I haven't heard a rep for alienating teammates or burning out coaches, and he was certainly the face of Boston coming together in their championship season. "Team cohesiveness" credit is hard to separate between Popovich and Duncan, too.

hasn't garnett been known to punch teammates in the face during practice?

235. NJ in NY posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

DEN runs their winning streak to 9 in a row and are now just 1.5 GB of LAC for the 3-seed.

236. robinred

posted on February 09, 2013 at 10:58 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

rr - Is there something about Garnett's personality that prevents team-building?

Nah. I am an actually an admirer of Garnett the player. But looking at 15+ years, I would prefer a less volatile/more bland guy at the center of the team.

237. puck posted on February 09, 2013 at 11:59 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I guess casual fans may not use bb-ref ELO rater, and the advanced stats presented there probably work in Garnett's favor. Here's the top 20, Garnett is 10th. Duncan is 7th, Kobe is 55th. Russell is probably way underrated at 20 though.

Magic's not in the top 20?

238. puck posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:01 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

DEN runs their winning streak to 9 in a row and are now just 1.5 GB of LAC for the 3-seed.

Amazingly, they just got even in home/road games. With tonight's win, they have played 1 more road game.

239. PJ Martinez posted on February 10, 2013 at 01:17 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

And speaking of Denver and traveling, I hear they may not make it into Boston to play the Celtics tomorrow?

As for where Dirk fits in that group, don't his defensive inadequecies knock him down a peg?

I'd probably go: Duncan, Garnett, Bryant, Dirk, Pierce, Nash.

Would love to put Garnett first, and I think it's very close. But it seems like Duncan's probably the best, if only just.

240. Booey posted on February 10, 2013 at 01:34 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I've always thought of KG and Kobe as being pretty comparable players value-wise. When they've had similar supporting casts, they've even had similar team results. Neither had anything to work with from 2005-2007, and both were good examples that not even a superstar in his prime can do everything by himself. From 2008-2012 they both had very good teammates and very good results. The difference in their rankings by the casual fan and MSM obviously is due almost entirely to the first half of their careers when Kobe was winning titles and KG kept losing in the first round. But Mamba had Phil Jackson and Shaq. Garnett had Flip Saunders and Rasho Nesterovic. It always seemed really unfair to me that so few people seemed to take that into consideration.

And yeah, Duncan is in the same boat as Kobe. Great as he was, Popovich, Robinson, Parker, and Ginobili are a lot more than KG had until he got to Boston.

241. andrewberg posted on February 10, 2013 at 02:43 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The thing about KG's personality that makes him hard to build around is the personality trait that made McHale draft him.

You all forgot Kidd. I'd slot him ahead of Pierce and Nash.

242. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim

posted on February 10, 2013 at 02:54 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Not that I think he's better than the guys already named, but Ray Allen came into the league the same year as Bryant, and among active players, Allen's 5th in Win Shares ahead of Kidd, Pierce, and Nash.

243. robinred

posted on February 10, 2013 at 04:50 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Garnett wasn't "hard to build around." As NJ said, I would simply prefer a guy more like Duncan for the long haul.

244. bigboy1234 posted on February 10, 2013 at 05:53 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Dirk>Kobe.

Kobe isn't quite as overrated as Carmelo and Iverson to me, but I do think he gets rated higher than he should. Maybe I'm crazy though.

245. RollingWave posted on February 10, 2013 at 08:45 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think Dirk > Kobe is a stretch, Kobe can be overrated to some extend but he's been very healthy and has played since he's 18, the overall career value is very very high.

It's clear that he's not say.... David Robinson or Michael Jordan, but the difference between him and Garnett is relatively minimal at best even if you think it goes in favor of Garnett. (those 2 are the most interesting to compare though, both were highschool draft in very close succession, and both are kinda similar personality wise.)

246. NJ in NY posted on February 10, 2013 at 09:56 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Kidd was drafted in '94 so he missed my fairly arbitrary '96 and after (mid to late 90s) cut-off. I considered Ray Allen, but I made the subjective judgment that the 6 guys I mentioned were all better than him.

247. thok posted on February 10, 2013 at 10:07 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I don't know if this means anything, other than just that Garnett is, as everyone knows, a great, great player, but: "Garnett is the only player ever with at least 25,000 career points, 10,000 rebounds, 5,000 assists, 1,500 blocks and 1,500 steals."

Garnett is the only player with at least 80% of that value in each category, although the inclusion of blocks and steals limits it to recent players (neither was measured until 1973).

Karl Malone and Abdul-Jabbar each beat Garnett in 4 of the 5 categories (Garnett has more blocks than Malone, and more steals than Abdul-Jabbar).

248. PJ Martinez posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:05 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Allen is another guy who's never been a great defender. Nash, too. Kobe has declined, but at his best he was capable of excellent defense. Obviously Duncan and Garnett are on another level in terms of impact on that end.

If we include Kidd he's definitely up there, too. Seems a little underrated, though maybe that's changing as he continues to contribute in the latter stages of his career.

249. Der_K posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

My favorite (not best) Euroleague player is Kyle Hines. Here's a shot of him getting hit by a flare, 45 min before the Greek Final:

Argument against int'l expansion by the NBA

250. Der_K posted on February 10, 2013 at 12:57 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

244, I agree.

Not sure on Duncan v Garnett. Think I take Big Fundy, but you can't go wrong - both amazing dudes.

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Wednesday, May 01, 2013

OT: NBA Monthly Thread - May 2013

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