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Page 3 of 12 pages
I'm really shocked that people think Duncan/Garnett is a toss-up.
Duncan has slight statistical edges in PER as well as WS/48.
Of course, Duncan didn't play in the NBA when he was 18,19, 20, or 21.
Also, Duncan's just closer to being a center, right?
My gut says Kobe, but I'd have to really look at it
Is it sexist to claim that women's basketball has better fundamentals than the men's game? I think it is - which is not at all a knock on that game, but a function of resources, history, and so on.
What are fundamentals: not dunking is probably part of it. Um, making the right pass, boxing out, shooting form, and so on. Part good technique, part code for playing like it's 1958. (Meant as joke, critique of WBB, and slam on male commentators - a capacity I'm acting in with this post)
MT @JADubin5 "The Knicks are not playing defense like they did the first two months."-Magic Johnson. D-Rtg first 2 months: 102.7 ... Since: 102.8
I also am not sure that comparing Kobe to three 6'11" guys is the best way to evaluate him, although I of course did it myself.
Is it sexist to claim that women's basketball has better fundamentals than the men's game?
I was going to say as much in light of my personal belief that Dream is the greatest C ever, but...the stats are HEAVILY in Robinson's favor even acknowledging Hakeem playing almost half a decade more at a high level.
I don't think people truly appreciate how bad his supporting cast was pre-Duncan. It was an awful team. They were a 20 win team before he joined and they were a 20 win team when he missed the full season. They were a 50-60 win team in between. None of the other all-time greats have something that drastic on their resume. I wish there were +/- stats back then. He carried that team. Olajuwon had a pretty weak cast as well, but it felt better to me at the time.
1. He's bigger. In his prime, he was able to often guard Shaq. Garnett is a great interior defender, and got the max out of his slight frame. But I think in one-on-one low post defending, I'd take Duncan.
2. Better playoff resume. Garnett I think had a fairly earned reputation as being a guy who would play hot potato with the ball in the late stages of the playoffs. I think that Boston is/was a perfect team in that he never had to have the offense run through him in late game situations.
as a non-basketball fan i suspect the legend of hakeem is somewhat traced to the fact that he was incredibly elegant and fluid in his play. he was really pleasant to watch
if that makes any sense
duncan is kind of clunky
I'm not sure where I'd put Karl Malone here. But to me, the fact that he didn't consistently have better teams than Robinson/Olajuwon despite having John F'n Stockton is enough to know I'd rank him below both of them.
Not as good a fit as Robinson's success from his rookie year though I suppose.
I think a lot more of the playoffs is randomness that is after-the-fact turned into narrative. I'm not saying the playoffs don't matter - but I think if Robinson had Stockton and Malone had Avery Johnson, whatever minimal gap that now exists would have been much wider.
Robinson > Olajuwon > Shaq > Duncan > Garnett
I think if I were playing the game that rr proposed, of which 20-year old you'd want to built a team around, knowing their career arc, I think Shaq takes a serious hit because he'll get fat and bored. I'd put below the other 4 listed, and maybe even a bit lower, despite his clear physical/skill superiority.
Edit: and I'd still probably take LeBron over all of them. Has anyone checked out his month of February?
I'll take prime Shaq over Robinson or Hakeem as well, simply because he was completely impossible to defend other than to Hack A Shaq him (which wasn't that effective anyway), which you couldn't do with a Hakeem or Robinson on the floor. He used to destroy other good centers because they couldn't just rack up fouls on him and put him on the line. He used to dunk all over Robinson in particular. He was probably the worst basketball player of the three in a fundamentals sense in that he depended on his physical gifts (tremendous size and insane quickness for that size) more than they did to be effective, but nonetheless he did have that size and quickness.
But really, people were saying 3 weeks before they won it all in this thread that they weren't balanced enough to beat the Pacers.
Shaq's offensive moves are underrated. This dunk on Robinson--not the All-Star game one--is a fairly complex set of moves. If it finished with a fallaway bank shot, it'd be remembered for the footwork.
I don't know that they're underrated. At least not on this thread. But I'm not going to just hand wave away all the crap he got away with because he happened to also have good footwork.
His genetic credentials are impeccable. Mitchell Wiggins played in the NBA for six seasons and played professionally for nearly 15. Marita Payne-Wiggins won two silver medals for Canada in the 1984 Olympics. Andrew Wiggins flashes sprinter speed in the open floor, boasts a 44-inch vertical and his dunking ability has made him a YouTube sensation. His Go-Go Gadget arms and quick feet give him the tools to become an elite-level NBA defender.
Sure. The reason why I hated him was how well a team was going to do in the playoffs against the Lakers mattered more on how refs were going to call the Shaq postups than on anything about how well people were playing.
Speaking of Kidd, ABC just pointed out that 1994-95 co-ROYs Kidd and Hill are going head to head on the court in 2013.
what do people think about positional adjustments in ranking basketball players? Since even a great defensive guard or small forward can't anchor an entire teams defense like a center can, it seems that a disproportionate amount of the greatest players ever (say top 20) are centers or tall PF/C's - Robinson, Duncan, KG, Olajuwon, Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, Moses. Should this be adjusted for in the rankings, or is that just the way things are?
(semi-related, but from someone who doesn't follow football much, aren't a disproportionate amount of the best players/MVP's quarterbacks? Maybe I'm wrong)
This guy is perhaps the next big thing:
Wiggins, a senior at Huntington (W.Va.) Prep, is choosing between Florida State, Kentucky, UNC and Kansas and is said to be leaning toward Florida State.
i'm gonna go out on a limb and say that he's probably not going to florida state.
Has anyone ever shot 55% overall and 40% from three?
Since even a great defensive guard or small forward can't anchor an entire teams defense like a center can
I'd say both Pippen and LeBron did just that from the SF spot (though LBJ does get plenty of minutes of PF these days).
A great defensive wing can shut down his man, but he can't shut down a teams entire inside game the way a center can.
I still take Shaq over KG, knowing all of that.
I'm not going to argue this point, but I feel like there's a lot of value in a guy like Pippen or LeBron who can be a shutdown defender at any of 4 positions. That gives you a lot of match up flexibility. IIRC, both Pippen and LeBron are pretty fearsome help-side defenders too.
Then again, he got to that level so infrequently that it would be impossible to rationally take him over guys like Duncan or Olajuwon for a career. It was almost like he was guaranteed to win 3 or 4 titles with his physical skills and got EXACTLY that many.
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