Clippers with 46. In the first quarter.

Really? [checks score online] Whoa

Chris Paul is so good.

that may have been the most sixerest lost of all sixers losses this season.

They actually got to the line more than 10 times, though. Progress!

Donatas Motiejunas is giving HOU some quality minutes tonight. Really have to wonder why HOU hasn't placed more of an emphasis on playing their young guys this season.

EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.

EDIT: I guess almost the entire team is young, but what I mean is that I don't understand why guys like Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, etc. weren't given more rope.

i would guess that has a lot to do with marcus morris shooting 38% from beyond the arc, and greg smith shooting 63% from the field.

just for a bit of fun, the rockets have 6 players (harden, parsons, patterson, delfino, asik, and morris) who've played 1000 minutes and have a higher TS% than anyone on the sixers roster (thaddeus young leads the team at .533). oh, and on top of those 6, you can also add the aforementioned smith who's shooting 63% but in only ~600 minutes.

Clippers with 46. In the first quarter.

The Bulls/C's game had a score of 49-43 at the end of the 3rd quarter. Boston scored 40% of their points in the 4th quarter.

Remember though, last night was the last game for all these teams before the All Star break. Those usually lead to some ugly scores.

---

Man, Rose is doing everything he can to dampen my optimism for this Bulls season:

“I really don’t know,” Rose said when asked about his return to the court. “I’m feeling good, but like I said, if it’s where it’s taking a long time and I’m still not feeling right, I don’t mind missing this year.”

When asked about what would signal to him personally that he was ready to play again, Rose responded, “Being able to dunk. I can’t dunk. I know that if I can dunk off stride, I know I’ll be out there playing, but I can’t.”

I feel for Derek. It's been almost 20 years since I was able to dunk.

I feel for Derek. It's been almost 20 years since I was able to dunk.

At least it's a good excuse. "AROM, why don't you play pro basketball?" "I can't dunk. Once I can dunk off stride, I'll be out there playing again."

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

I was about an inch or two off in terms of vertical, and my hands are a little bit too small to palm a basketball. My best attempts with a women's ball were able to get the ball over the rim, but not down into the basket. That was my senior year of high school. I don't think I ever really tried again when I got a little more athletic playing ultimate frisbee in college. I may have been able to get a women's ball in at that point. I'd need even more inches with a men's ball to make up for not being able to palm it.

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim? I was about 1" off in terms of vertical, and my hands are a little bit too small to palm a basketball. My best attempts with a women's ball were able to get the ball over the rim, but not down into the basket. That was my senior year of high school. I don't think I ever really tried again when I got a little more athletic playing ultimate frisbee in college.

+1 exactly. tennis ball, yes. women's ball kind of almost maybe with some blinking. men's ball never

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

Ha, no, never close. 5-10, not a leaper.

Could only rattle them in in college, so I never really counted it because I couldn't put it down clean. My problem* was that I jumped better off my right leg, but couldn't hold the ball as well with my left hand. I did give myself some seriously inflamed cartilage one summer working on it, though!

*Well technically my problem is that I'm not athletic enough, I was just trying to be more specific.

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

5'8.5". On a good day I can tap the rim.

And there's basically never been public suspicion of it, either. It's the most personality-driven, most "traditionally athletic" major league sport, and nobody seems to think that there's something going on there?

I've never bought the "doping wouldn't help at all in the NBA" argument, mainly because it's a load of horseshit, but I've never been very worked up about it. The comparison of stats across generations is a huge part of baseball, and a decent contact hitter being able to add 10% distance to most hits changes their competitive profile profoundly; but basketball relies on skill, creativity and height as much as athleticism. Quite a bit more than it, as long as you clear the (admittedly high) bar of minimum necessary athleticism. No steroid has been yet invented that can give you a good handle or a good FT%, let alone good peripheral vision, geometric creativity, spatial awareness, disciplined shot selection, or footwork in the post.

There's a quote from Hakeem in that youtube video of Dwight's workoutswhere he explains that, at the NBA level, getting shots off is just a matter of using your physical tools to get space. That is, the defender covers much of the space available for a potential shot release; you have to use deception and whatever combination of height, wingspan, speed, jumping ability, strength and ball handling you have to get your actual release somewhere beyond that. Cheating can only improve a couple of those tools; you still have to solve another puzzle every possession. Or, more briefly: steroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.

My dunking history is almost exactly the same as smileyy's, except I did manage to dunk a few women's balls and once got enough grip on a brand new leather men's ball to dunk it (juuuust barely) a handful of times.

I could dunk with no defense on a running start when I was in college. That is not much of an accomplishment since I am 6'4, but my ankle was shredded as a toddler, so I have always been a two foot jumper which doesn't help. I was also a vegetrarian then and weighed about 20 lbs less, so I have let go of the dream. I did put up one of my best performances in a lawyer league game last night.

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

Not even remotely close. I've got long fingers for my height (5'11) so I can palm a ball, but even at my athletic peak in my 20's, before my knee ligaments started ripping every 5 years like clockwork and before I put on my 30's...insulation...jumping was never one of my skills.

My 6'1 brother used to be able to dunk it occasionally.

[S]teroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.

I mostly agree with this, but think it ignores the issue of stamina/recovery. One of the big points you see in any of the (more honest) accounts of ex-doper cyclists is that PEDs raise your level of performance, but, arguably more invaluably, allow you to perform at that level day in and day out in a way your body couldn't bear without them. Everybody agrees that the NBA season is too long; I have no idea how pervasive the use is, but there are certainly drugs which would help guys bring it in the fourth quarter on the second night of a back-to-back, or in the playoffs after already logging 90 games that season.


Dunking-wise, I'm 6'2" but have never really been close. When I played ultimate fairly competitively in college I could just about touch rim, but I'm not really a leaper and don't have long arms, so dunking on a regulation rim has never been close to possible for me. (I also can't come close to palming a ball, but I'm not close to the point where that would be an issue.)

How many people in this thread could ever dunk on a 10' rim?

I'm 6 foot even, and in my "prime" I could grab the rim with one hand and just barely grab the rim with both hands. I've dunked a basketball exactly once, in college during IM league warmups, and could never repeat it. I just couldn't elevate enough to get my hand AND the basketball over the rim — my hands aren't big enough to grip the ball enough to control it.

That was nearly 20 years ago. I'm nowhere near the rim now.

I'm 6'3 and have been since I started high school. Hands not quite good enough to palm. Sort of, give me a minute to spread my fingers and postion the ball, and I can palm it, but that doesn't work off the dribble. First threw one down at age 17. I played every day in HS, and very often in college. At my best I was able to control the ball into the rim without palming or dunk 2 handed. Could hit my wrist on the rim. I was really skinny then, 140-150 pounds at that height, and it helps to not bring any extra baggage when trying for a takeoff.

Now I can hit the rim with the tips of my fingers on a good day.

Even if I could dunk, I'd be so far from NBA level that it's hard to fathom. I was very fast, decent ballhandler and OK shooter playing pickup ball or against guys on the HS team. But I saw early on how vast the jumps were in the abilities at different levels.

I watched a guy in my HS, 6'10, who was the star of the team, ran the floor well, good leaper, looked very athletic for his size. He went on to play for Duke in the late 80's. No, it wasn't Christian Laettner. It was his backup, and at Duke he barely got to play. When he did he looked like the prototypical big man stiff for the NCAA. The jump from there to the NBA has to be just as great, where the guys sitting at the end of NBA benches were generally star players in NCAA division I.

Basketball was always my worst sport, I'm 5-10 (and that's stretching it) in shoes and at my peak athleticism senior year of HS, I could scrape the rim. I ran a 4.8 forty that year too. Boy, those were the days.

Moses: hard to believe what Rose says sometimes. I think he's talking specifically about going up off of one foot on that knee but he's a two footed leaper 90% of the time anyways. Dunno, I just want to see him on the court, 90% of D Rose is better than 100% of most guys.

I could never quite get to the rim, though I tried hard before leaving basketball for distance running. It wouldn't have mattered anyway, as I can't palm a ball.

5'10 and I don't know that I've ever touched the rim. I seem to remember always being a couple of inches short.

Moses: hard to believe what Rose says sometimes. I think he's talking specifically about going up off of one foot on that knee but he's a two footed leaper 90% of the time anyways. Dunno, I just want to see him on the court, 90% of D Rose is better than 100% of most guys.

Didn't he tear his ACL playing at 90%? At this point, I think they'd be crazy to rush him - if he gets rushed back and gets hurt again, you could be well on your way to seriously ####### up his career.

6-0, but blew up my knees as a 11-year old. At my post-injury peak, got halfway up the net. I was also slow, couldn't pass, dribble, or shoot. Probably my best sport. (sigh)

AROM, not Erik Meek - was it? (wait - now I forget if you are from California or Maryland.) If so, he was a NBA draftee, at least.

I watched a guy in my HS, 6'10, who was the star of the team, ran the floor well, good leaper, looked very athletic for his size. He went on to play for Duke in the late 80's. No, it wasn't Christian Laettner. It was his backup, and at Duke he barely got to play. When he did he looked like the prototypical big man stiff for the NCAA. The jump from there to the NBA has to be just as great, where the guys sitting at the end of NBA benches were generally star players in NCAA division I.

It is truly amazing. A friend of mine shot with Kurt Rambis a few times and said Rambis would just stroke 20 footers and kill people in HORSE...and in the NBA his job was never to even consider taking a shot.

I helped coach a team that played against Marcus Camby in high school and he hit threes on 2 of the first 3 possessions...and averages 1 made 3-pointer a season in the NBA.

At every level the leaps are so large. A family member was a ridiculous high school scorer--broke 50 and is the top scorer in our county history, went to a low-level D1 school and started...as the defensive specialist whose job was to move the ball on the perimeter until someone else got open.

6'2", long arms, decent-sized hands (could sort-of-barely-sometimes palm the ball), no injury excuses...and I could never come close. Just hilariously bad jumping ability. At my peak I could touch the rim with my fingertips, maybe the first knuckle, but that's it.

So, googling around some forums (terribly inaccurate, I know) suggests that a 6' person will have a standing reach of around 8'. Figuring that you need to get your fingertips to 10'6" to dunk, that's another 30" of vert that's required to dunk. Every little inch of height below the shoulder helps a whole lot when it comes to dunking.

I was probably 6'2" in basketball shoes (6'0.5" barefoot), and probably getting a max vert reaching 10'3". I guess I'm a little impressed by my probable 20-24" vert at that point.

this is an actual, real life advertisement for the penn state-illinois basketball game.


now, the ad was sent in an email by illinois and the pic is of the coach and his son following illinois' win over #1 ranked indiana, but even so, i'm gonna say that it is not a great idea to kick that particular hornet's nest.

now, the ad was sent in an email by illinois and the pic is of the coach and his son following illinois' win over #1 ranked indiana, but even so, i'm gonna say that it is not a great idea to kick that particular hornet's nest.

this is why you pay someone to look over your work and say, "i know why you think this is a good idea but it's actually a very very bad idea"

5-foot-7. I could barely touch the net.

6' on the nose, could get rim consistently in my youth, but could never come close to actually throwing down. Played PG; sort of a HS version of Steve Blake (sad, I know).

6' or 6'1", but with freakish length. Known for long, spidery arms and could get up pretty well. The best I could do, which peaked in graduate school, was dunk a woman's ball. I can still occasionally grab the rim if all is right: right shoes, feeling right, good floor, but otherwise, I miss grabbing the rim more often than not. I could only dunk jumping off my right leg and using my left hand. I lost the pinky on my left hand as a kid, so holding the ball was always the problem. The girl's ball was easy.

Did any of you ever measure your jumping ability? I can remember this contraption we had to jump and tap as high as we could. The highest I got (10th grade) was 26".

Or, more briefly: steroids are not a huge deal in basketball for the same reasons Anthony Randolph is not an All-Star.

I don't really have an issue with decrying the usefulness of steroids, and I'm definitely a subscriber to the idea that a juiced ball was what was the most important thing in changing the offensive climate in baseball. So I don't particularly care about PED use in terms of how it has RUINED the game. (Believe me, I have other terrible theories to explain the changes in basketball that I don't like, like how the three-point line is what brought about the death of the "white gunner".)

But there's always, always the elephant of "intent" when discussing PED usage. It's about how these players are perceived, as the most extraordinary pure athletes in sports, yet steroids just don't come up as a root. Plus, the NBA has been )at least in my lifetime) the sport most marketed towards the youth market, because of the obviousness of the skills displayed and players on offer. If any sport should actually come under the scrutiny of its effect on THE CHILDREN!, shouldn't it be basketball? But there's nothing. It's just bizarre.

i don't think this has been mentioned here, but something interesting happened last night:

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Points
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. Michael Jordan* 32292
...
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791

At my best I probably had a 24-27 inch vertical, had to be around 30 inches in a running jump since I could get my wrist up to the rim. A few years ago the gym at work did a vertical contest. Mine was only around 20. The best anyone did out of maybe 100 guys was 27. Now compare that to Draft Express. Doubt you'll find many guys there under 30.

AROM, not Erik Meek - was it?

Nope. Clay Buckley. Not drafted by the NBA.

i don't think this has been mentioned here, but something interesting happened last night:

NBA & ABA Career Leaders and Records for Points
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar* 38387
2. Karl Malone* 36928
3. Michael Jordan* 32292
...
34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791

You shut your mouth when you're posting here STEAGLES!

Nah, what are you gonna do. Longevity, being the guy for a number of years on some bad teams (rather than being the guy among other great guys on some great teams), etc. Plus, let's be honest, Vince was a damn fine scorer for a few years there in Toronto. That Sixers/Raptors series with Iverson and Vince taking turns piling up points was good times.

34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791

Yeah, Vince has scored a ton of points. Career point totals are not what people usually cite as evidence of Bird's greatness, and it's pretty much exhibit A for Carter, so I don't know if that proves much.

It is probably fair to say that he has become somewhat underrated for his career. He left Toronto on such bad terms and many never forgave him.

Ack! Buckley was my first thought (for some strange reason), but I remembered him being from Pennsylvania or Delaware or something.

I told a Celts fan about Vince this morning, then laughed at his sour reaction.

I would imagine that Simmons Tweeted about Carter and Bird.

34. Vince Carter 21796
35. Larry Bird* 21791

Should VC make the HOF? I'd like to say no, but he probably deserves it, right?

Edit: What about TMac?

VC in a hypothetical NBA HOF makes for a very big hall, doesn't it?

I think this tells a good story of why VC shouldn't be in the HOF:

# of seasons with WS > .15*G Basically, the number of 12WS/82G seasons a player had. Vince's career says "High-volume NBA starter".

Edit: Am I setting too high of a bar there?

I can't even dunk in my (very) occasional basketball dreams, though at least a couple of times I've gotten a helluva lot closer than in real life (5'10ish, screwed up my left knee about the time I turned 13, small hands). I'm also slow, shoot much better (though not very well at all) from 3-point land than inside & can't dribble for crap ...

... but by god can I foul. I once scooped out an opponent's contact lens without actually touching his eye (which I guess wouldn't technically have been a foul).

Should VC make the HOF? I'd like to say no, but he probably deserves it, right?

I would think so. He's not inner-circle, obviously, but I think he fits quite comfortably into the somewhat-lax standards of the HoF.

VC in a hypothetical NBA HOF makes for a very big hall, doesn't it?

The basketball HOF IS very big, and not even limited to NBA players.

The basketball HOF IS very big, and not even limited to NBA players.

Just for starting the February thread, The District Attorney is considered a pretty strong candidate for induction.

5'11" on the driver's license, smallish hands, generic wingspan, touched the rim ONCE.

but god damn it I TOUCHED that rim!

5'11" on the driver's license

I lived the lie for years -- decades -- that I was 5'11" 1/2. Not sure why I thought so ... or if I truly was, how I wound up at a bit less than 5'10" by last time at the doctor's office.

I know people shrink as they get older, but dammit I'm only in my early 50s.

*sigh*

TMac is much better than Vince Carter. TMac was a legit superstar for a few years there.

Edit: Stats don't totally back me up here, but McGrady did have a year where he led the league in WS/48. I'd still take his peak.

I had a front-row seat (literally) for T-Mac's time in Orlando, and his 2002-03 season was the best I had seen from any wing not named Jordan. He was AMAZING. Here's a great stat combo: For as much as T-Mac dominated the ball (Usage Rate of 35.2) that year, he almost never turned it over (career-low TOV% of 8.4).

I lived the lie for years -- decades -- that I was 5'11" 1/2. Not sure why I thought so ... or if I truly was, how I wound up at a bit less than 5'10" by last time at the doctor's office.

From my experience 5'9" and 5'10" are generally the "suspicious" heights for men. I've met a lot of "5'9" men who are probably really around 5'7", and 5'8" and 5'9" men often say they're 5'10". I meet very few guys (unless it's really, really obvious) who will admit to being shorter than 5'9" (unless they're like 5'5" or 5'6", in which case they usually say 5'7").

Women are the opposite. My 5'11" or 6' sister always says she's 5'9".

And to bring all this back to basketball, I suspect many NBA heights aren't any more accurate.