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BTW, on the 3 juicers, Fisk and Ryan are obvious, I've taken them as a given for at least 5 years now.
If that had been Kevin saying that about Barry Bonds, the responses would have filled several pages. And yet I guarantee there won't be a single objection here to scruff's comment. Why? Because as long as you don't care whether juicers get into the HoF, you get a free pass to say anything you want about any player you want, even if you'd be rightfully embarrassed to say it to his face. This is what passes for ground rules here on BTF.
Andy: Do you think it is very likely that there are steroids users in the Hall of Fame already? If so, then what is the sense of keeping players out just because they got caught?
No idea, but let me know when you can actually identify any specific names. You can call on Murray Chass anytime if you want to dig up some fresh innuendo. The funny thing to me about all this is that it's the same people who always prattle on about "witch hunts" who seem to be the most likely to want to jump to conclusions or make assumptions of guilt about just about any player whose name pops into their heads.
Cheating is any attempt to surrepetitiously gain an advantage not available to everyone else. Taking steroids and covering it up easily qualifies.
Yes. MLB agreed and adopted this proposition through the Mitchell Report.
Serious comment: If that had been Kevin saying that about Barry Bonds, the responses would have filled several pages. And yet I guarantee there won't be a single objection here to scruff's comment. Why? Because as long as you don't care whether juicers get into the HoF, you get a free pass to say anything you want about any player you want, even if you'd be rightfully embarrassed to say it to his face.
this is incorrect. fisk workout regimen was a hot topic with photos of fisk doing what was listed as his 500th situp and the like.
1. I don't want known juicers in the Hall of Fame.
Fisk is very likely to have used steroids.
If you think steroid use is entirely innocuous, it's not a big deal that you think someone used them.
Here's a little test: Would you or Bill James** repeat that accusation to Fisk's face? Why or why not?
It's not, but until they're known, then I'd rather not be throwing around random accusations and speculation. God only knows why this is such a difficult concept for some people to comprehend.
Whether it's intentional or not, you are completely missing the point. The point is not to point fingers at people without proof.
No, you're completely missing the point. It's too late for that. Fingers have already been pointed, without proof. One can no longer pretend that by no finger pointing they're somehow sparing anyone anything - all they're doing in endorsing the finger pointing that's already taken place. An "I'm Spartacus" moment would be best, but all we have is an opportunity for a "He's Spartacus" moment, or let people guilty of jaywalking be sentenced for murder.
BTW -- Auto-da-fé? What's an Auto-da-fé?
Once again, in English?
The last time I looked, "very likely" isn't quite the same thing as "a preponderance of actual evidence", but if that standard works for you, I can't stop you.
And this is what it's really all about, isn't it? You have no problem with tarnishing reputations without proof, for the purpose of framing the issue so that Mark McGwire is on the same level with whatever name you decide to pull out of a hat. I'm sorry if I don't choose to go along with that little game.
I would have loved to see what Barry could have done clean, competing against clean competition.
A friend of mine who just started watching baseball about a year and a half ago is absolutely horrified by MLB's stance on PEDs. He's blown away that Melky Cabrera is going to be allowed to play again.
But perhaps an alternate solution might be to try to educate people about the difference between speculation and real evidence, even if that's unlikely to produce instant results. I would think that this might appeal to fair minded people regardless of their views on the overall steroids question.
you've outlasted "Nieosporin", so congratulations on that. (smile)
So then I guess you'd be in favor of putting statues of known bribe takers on the floor of the Senate; you'd be in favor of sanctifying known child molesting priests as long as there are unidentified others like them still at large; and you'd be in favor of letting convicted DWI drivers keep their licenses as long as not all drunken drivrs get caught.
the only way forward is to convict them all, forcing us to pardon them all.
Auto-da-fé? What's an Auto-da-fé?
I believe it literally means "act of faith". A kind of theatre of penance for heretics by the Inquisition where the condemned would be marched out with great ceremony for the locals to gawk at, and then burned (or forgiven as the case may be).
Auto-da-fé? What's an Auto-da-fé?
I've been watching baseball for decades and I'm totally horrified by the MLB's "stance" (read "fold") on PEDs.
NO WAY Melky Cabrera should ever be able to play baseball again. What the MLB is doing - or, rather, not doing - is a disgrace.
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