I think the B1G Ten should still seriously consider banning them from conference play for a season. This is at least as bad as Baylor basketball's transgressions.

Reports are PSU will impose some sanctions of its own in addition to what the NCAA has imposed.

I don't understand why Posnanski went down there last year to chronicle a coach who is only 12th on the all time wins list.

:P

Seriously, I don't really see how Posnanski can go to print in August with his book. It needs a complete re-write now, not just a touch up.

'had all its victories from 1998 to 2011 vacated'

To me, it would have been better (for the cause of preventing the next one of these at University XYZ going forward) if only the wins from 2001-2011 had been vacated. In 1998, there was a criminal investigation into Sandusky's behavior and no charges were filed. Only in the 2001 incident was there a coverup by Penn State. If Penn State had fully encouraged and cooperated with bringing Sandusky to justice in 2001, I would think that the sanctions against them for 1998 would have been minimal. Starting the vacating of wins in 2001 would have highlighted the fact: "see, 2001, that's where you REALLY screwed up".

I usually think vacating wins/erasing facts is silly. But in this case it is warranted. Paterno, like it or not, is now a stain on the face of college football, and for his legacy to be rewarded by him being atop the wins list would feel wrong.

On the other hand, part of me thinks they should have kept his wins alone, because him staying at the top of the wins list would serve as a constant reminder of the snafu that is college football, where everyone gets paid market value except for the kids and the priorities are all out of wack and there is a cult-like behavior and there is a fiction that the athletes are being "educated" and the coaches are "leaders."

Beyond that I have nothing bad to say about college football.

The "keep his records as a reminder" argument would serve one legitimate purpose, but that purpose is at odds with what the NCAA wants - which is people NOT to be reminded that PSU enabled Sandusky.

The "keep the statue up as a reminder" argument doesn't work as well, though, because in that case the statue is just a local thing that the local cultists would derive joy from; the records thing is a much broader, national scope. So I see a difference.

Someone needs to investigate John Gagliardi before it's too late.

I think the B1G Ten should still seriously consider banning them from conference play for a season. This is at least as bad as Baylor basketball's transgressions.

Reports are PSU will impose some sanctions of its own in addition to what the NCAA has imposed.

I will say this: the idea of 110K cultists showing up every PSU home game and decrying the injustice of poor, put upon PSU galls me to no end.

Someone needs to investigate John Gagliardi before it's too late.

Absolutely! All those wins for 60+ years *AND* a focus on keeping his players healthy by not having contact practices? We must demand an investigation of this man who clearly does not stand for what football is all about!!!

Starting the vacating of wins in 2001 would have highlighted the fact: "see, 2001, that's where you REALLY screwed up"

I wanted to voice my support of this opinion, as well. 2001-2011 seems far more appropriate for vacating the wins.

Hmmm...though by starting in 1998, I guess that means we now had a 10-win season when we went to the Rose Bowl for the 2nd time. Our AD is probably going to have a field day with advertising materials that now include that.

Hmmm...though by starting in 1998, I guess that means we now had a 10-win season when we went to the Rose Bowl for the 2nd time. Our AD is probably going to have a field day with advertising materials that now include that.

Vacated wins do not suddenly become wins for the losing team. Its still a loss. The win is vacated.

Thats why they are vacated wins and not forfeits.

To me, it would have been better (for the cause of preventing the next one of these at University XYZ going forward) if only the wins from 2001-2011 had been vacated.

I'd have been happier if the NCAA had also vacated all the cash PSU made from its football program since 98. That way, since they did the coverup to protect the cash cow and keep the money flowing, the punishment would more fit the crime.

And I say this as a man whose GF went to PSU as well as five other family members, including one who is a pretty serious booster.

I wanted the death penalty. Nothing else seems appropriate.

I'd have been happier if the NCAA had also vacated all the cash PSU made from its football program since 98. That way, since they did the coverup to protect the cash cow and keep the money flowing, the punishment would more fit the crime.

Isn't that what they're trying to do with the $60 million fine?

NYT article regarding Posnanski's book

I assume with the vacated wins, Bowden becomes the all time leader?

That's correct.

Regarding Stanford, they have a great all-around athletic program, but the revenue sports of football and men's basketball are off and on. To me Michigan and Texas are more representative of football factories that also have excellent academic reputations.

Seriously, I don't really see how Posnanski can go to print in August with his book. It needs a complete re-write now, not just a touch up.

Everything I've read says this is the publisher's choice, and Poz has to play along or else. There was no way he could redirect his reporting on such short notice, and if he tried, at best he would only have regurgitated everything Sara Ganim reported.

In 2014 I expect him to write his mea-culpa memoir, self-published.

We really don't need a baseball version of Armond White (the film critic who lambasted the Toy Story movies and kvelled over That's My Boy)...

Bill James: 'I was wrong about Rickey; Vince Coleman did more to help his teams win'

From the NYT article linked above:

the publication of “Paterno,” which has emerged as perhaps one of the most unfortunately timed books of 2012.

Perhaps? Per freaking haps?

Depends on how you define "unfortunately timed". It'll probably sell way more now.

Perhaps? Per freaking haps?

Well, the article does point out that apparently several "Linsanity" books were in the pipeline.

Oops.

Books take too long to produce to cash in on something like "Linsanity". The guys who really made out were the ones who sold their autographed short-print Lin rookie cards on eBay. At the height of the madness, some of them sold for $2500+.

Talk about buy low, sell high.

Books take too long to produce to cash in on something like "Linsanity".

Depends, I guess. Over the last few decades we've had examples of what were pretty much "instant books"; I used to have one on Kent State that must've come out very shortly after the killings.

Well, the article does point out that apparently several "Linsanity" books were in the pipeline.

Oops.

The market for these books might have moved from New York to Houston (and, hence, shrunk), but Jeremy Lin still exists and he just signed a fairly lucrative free-agent deal. That's a pretty far cry from a guy who went from a legend and all-time winningest coach in college football history to being fired, having his statue torn down, and stripped of a decade's worth of wins to take away his record.

I know this is a terrible tragedy far more important than a biography, but I do fell bad for Pos. He is going to lose a lot because of the scandal.

I know this is a terrible tragedy far more important than a biography, but I do fell bad for Pos. He is going to lose a lot because of the scandal.

All too true, but I guess I'd say that Posnanski's far from the only one. Basically everyone who hitched their career to Paterno's star, and that's a whole lot of people, is going to lose a lot. The lesson could not be clearer about buying into something too deeply.

Isn't he leaving SI? Is that a case of bailing off a sinking ship or walking the gangplank?

Books take too long to produce to cash in on something like "Linsanity".

Lisa: This biography of Bart came out awfully quickly. It's not even about him!
Bart: Sure it is! Look at the cover.
Lisa: But inside it's mostly about Ross Perot, and the last two chapters are excerpts from the Oliver North trial.
Homer: Ah, Oliver North. He was just poured into that uniform.

Isn't he leaving SI? Is that a case of bailing off a sinking ship or walking the gangplank?

Who, Posnanski? He left months ago.

I'd have been happier if the NCAA had also vacated all the cash PSU made from its football program since 98. That way, since they did the coverup to protect the cash cow and keep the money flowing, the punishment would more fit the crime.

You really think PSU has a few hundred million just laying around? As it is, having to pay a fine of $12M/yr for 5 years on top of dramatically reduced revenue from the football program for the foreseeable future is going to impose a lot of collateral damage on the university beyond just the athletics programs.

Who, Posnanski? He left months ago.

I thought so. How many months? Was it before or after scandal broke?

Was it before or after scandal broke?

I'm pretty sure the news of it broke (i.e., reached here) after the scandal broke, because I'm pretty sure the discussion about it here turned into one of our dozens of discussions of Jerry Sandusky, Joe Paterno, and Joe Posnanski's reaction to all of that.

Earlier we were wondering why SI won't run excerpts of Posnanski's book. Turns out they have, as was conjectured, been working on their own JoePa story. Here's the forthcoming cover.

there is an audio of JP stating something to the effect that-- to paraphrase from memory--and it is on the record--"...then we were all fooled..." and I don't know enough of the inner workings of the groundswell of bureaucratic "efficiency" defacto...just a guy in the bleachers..but there are aspects of these crimes that we still do not know..the efficiency folks have brought us here...and "efficiency" is alluring at times like these......'let's drop a bomb on the 'mess'....it is a mess'...we have to gift wrap this ##########>> now
'what a mess'

This changes everything: Jerry Sandusky upset over sanctions.
From the article

even if people believe he is guilty of the crimes for which he was convicted in June, it would be "ridiculous" to think Penn State administrators engaged in a cover-up.

"He said, 'To do what they're doing to Penn State is so unjust,'" Amendola said. "He loves the program and he loves the university."

"He said, 'To do what they're doing to Penn State is so unjust,'" Amendola said. "He loves the program and he loves the university. And he loves young boys."

"He said, 'To do what they're doing to Penn State is so unjust,'" Amendola said. "He loves the program and he loves the university. And he loves young boys. And not necessarily in that order."

You really think PSU has a few hundred million just laying around? As it is, having to pay a fine of $12M/yr for 5 years on top of dramatically reduced revenue from the football program for the foreseeable future is going to impose a lot of collateral damage on the university beyond just the athletics programs.

This is the argument for why Penn State should have received the death penalty. They won't stop funneling cash into the football program just because the football program has been stripped of some of its major revenue-generating facets (B10 title game, bowl game, reduced opportunity to be competitive due to scholarship loss). Instead, other portions of the University will suffer.

What should have been done, instead, IMHO: do a basic accounting on what PSU spends on football over a 3-year span. Salaries for coaches, trainers, administrators, stadium personnel, stadium maintenance, and all the other things I'm not thinking of. Then shut down the program for 3 years and mandate that whatever the dollar figure from the basic accounting was be paid into some appropriate charity. That way, we don't directly impact other areas of the University. (I'm aware that there is a possibility that even with no bowl games and lost scholarships, PSU football would be profitable and that my plan still damages other areas of the University. To that, I say, too bad - my proposal is an effort at minimizing such impact, but it is likely not possible to avoid altogether.)

All the scholarship athletes are permitted to transfer with no penalty. All the coaches are permitted to pursue any other employment in the interim, should they desire, with their jobs more or less guaranteed* when the death penalty expires.

*Provided they don't, you know, commit any crimes. Or cover up any crimes.

Finally, I want to go on record, since it may well be a first, that after reading this thread, I agree with Ray's assessment of the GJ summary and Pos. He was flat-out lying. You can qualify the GJ summary in any way you like in your article, but to just ignore it and then misrepresent the state of "what we know Joe knew" is lying. No way around it.

[1080] Someone out there still thinks that Jerry Sandusky's opinion on anything matters, and that means that someone still hasn't learned anything about this.

Of course, Bill James seems like the type who would be able to compartmentalize Sandusky's opinions about young boys from the rest of his opinions. For me, its just not worth the effort.

George Mitchell hired to monitor PSU's compliance with NCAA sanctions. He's 79 now, and apparently has a five-year contract.

Finally, I want to go on record, since it may well be a first, that after reading this thread, I agree with Ray's assessment of the GJ summary and Pos.

It was for me, too.

I still feel unclean.

Probably Ray does, too.

All too true, but I guess I'd say that Posnanski's far from the only one. Basically everyone who hitched their career to Paterno's star, and that's a whole lot of people, is going to lose a lot. The lesson could not be clearer about buying into something too deeply.

Agreed.

Finally, I want to go on record, since it may well be a first, that after reading this thread, I agree with Ray's assessment of the GJ summary and Pos. He was flat-out lying. You can qualify the GJ summary in any way you like in your article, but to just ignore it and then misrepresent the state of "what we know Joe knew" is lying. No way around it.

I note also, regarding the theory/argument that Posnanski didn't want to give too much credence to a GJ summary of Paterno's testimony before seeing the actual transcript, that once the actual transcript was released - which, IIRC, was a few weeks later - Posnanski did not then say, "You know, now we do know for a fact at least some of what Paterno knew, and that knowledge makes Paterno look very bad."

It was always a remote chance that the GJ summary had mischaracterized Paterno's testimony, because (A) the summary of Paterno's testimony was consistent with McQueary's at least insofar as McQueary telling Paterno that the conduct was - at a minimum - "of a sexual nature," and (b) after the release of the GJ summary Paterno did not come out and say that the GJ summary had misrepresented his testimony. This is a far cry from the analogy David tried to use with regard to the infamous HGH conversation that Clemens/Pettitte had, where right away it was apparent that Clemens did not agree with Pettitte's account of it (or the summary thereof in the Pettitte affidavit), and right away Clemens said so.

With the GJ summary, there was absolutely nothing to indicate that it had mischaracterized Paterno's testimony.

so sandusky wants out of solitary and wants to be put in the general population? count the seconds until he gets shanked.

i just LUUUVVV pos and feel bad for him. i'm hope HOPING he's keeping mouth SHUT because he has to wait until after that stupid book is out and gone. i'm hoping that after that, he'll make things right.

but maybe he's like people just just can't bring themselves to believe the bad news they must know is true. there are more than a few of them. you know the story - but he's really a good guy, he brings me presents and tells me he loves me as soon as he stops hitting me and he is always sorry and that hot chick who he helps with her, uh, plumbing, they're just friends. REALLY.

i don't know what his new gig will do or pay, but it sure seems to be a huge step down from even the kansas city paper.

sigh

i just LUUUVVV pos and feel bad for him. i'm hope HOPING he's keeping mouth SHUT because he has to wait until after that stupid book is out and gone. i'm hoping that after that, he'll make things right.

BBC, am I reading you wrong, or is the new theory that Posnanski's new book will _not_ have an objective appraisal of Paterno, and for that people will have to wait until _after_ his book?

Hey, Paterno was framed! I didn't know that until this site was launched:


http://www.framingpaterno.com/