He claims he and George Brett became good friends.

Sadly, George claims the same thing.

You did not go around publicly claiming that your adversary was a whore

1884 political cartoon

And in response

"Blaine, Blaine, James G. Blaine, the continental liar from the state of Maine, 'Burn this letter!'" (About what you'd think it meant. Blaine denied being corrupt, some old and very damaging letters surfaced and Blaine had thoughtfully included instructions to burn the letters)

Actually Cleveland's supporters had a pretty effective comeback to, "Ma, Ma, Where's My Pa?"

"Gone to the White House. Ha! Ha! Ha!"

19th Century politics was plenty nasty.

If Ryan Zimmerman and Jordan Zimmermann were septuagenarians in a golf cart, it would be a charity tournament in 2060.

Arthur Zimmermann was 52 when he tried to get Mexico to declare war on the US. I don't know if he was in a golf cart.

I don't believe in Zimmerman, I just believe in me.

provided that we know that the guilty man is the one being executed.

That's the rub, isn't it?

The worst came during the best game I've seen in person, game 163 of the 2009 season in which the Twins beat the Tigers to win the Central. The four... women... three gals in their 30s and one of the aforementioned's mother (who had the worst mouth of the four) seated directly behind myself and my three friends arrived to an afternoon game stumbling into their seats and proceeded to make advances towards every male in the area.

Wait don't tell me....

I know! Sex and the City season 2, am I right?

Bill James take on the rise of Olbermann and Limbaugh is 100% off target, IMO. There were strong reasons why that style was not the airwaves from the 1940s until the 1980s, but it had little to do with the threat that "somebody would have kicked your ass."

You can't really talk about the "rise of Olbermann and Limbaugh" because:
1. Olbermann's show is a response to Limbaugh, et. al, not a concurrent event.
2. Olbermann is relatively marginal compared to Limbaugh

Yes, finally, someone points out the complete idiocy of lumping Olbermann and Limbaugh together. But even 56 doesn't go far enough. Not only is Olbermann far less influential, he's far far far less offensive. His schtick is smarmy and angry, not incredibly sexist, racist, and vile. But hey, one guy is on the left and one is on the right, so gosh, they must be pretty much the same, because everyone who's reasonable knows both sides do it!

in 1929 most of those men would have been in prison for bootlegging or smuggling alcohol

And in 2012, most of them would be in prison for drug smuggling or distribution.

In 2009 53% of state prison inmates were serving time for violent offenses, 19% for property, 18% for drug, and 9% for public-order.

Federal prisons are where the majority are drug related.
.

Warden Lawes wasn't creating an environment where if prisoners stepped out of line they were beaten or at least not by the standards of the day. He promoted the "square deal" with prisoners and treated them with empathy. Sing Sing was largely saved from the prison riots in NY in the mid to late 1920's (caused in large part by the "four strike" law) and in large part it was credited to Lawes and his "soft" handling of the inmates.

I think what Bill is saying is generally true, but it certainly seems like the SkyDome has gotten a lot drunker and rowdier the last few years

It's gotten to the point where I don't want to take my nephew to a game with tickets in the 500 level. I'm not going to any games this year, and I don't think I'll miss it that much because of how bad the security/ushering/alcohol control/general atmosphere's gotten. It's not dangerous, but it's often unpleasant because the staff just seem to be completely unwilling to cut anyone off who's shitfaced drunk. It's disappointing because it's been a problem for years but they've done (AFAIK) nothing to fix it.

Yes, finally, someone points out the complete idiocy of lumping Olbermann and Limbaugh together. But even 56 doesn't go far enough. Not only is Olbermann far less influential, he's far far far less offensive. His schtick is smarmy and angry, not incredibly sexist, racist, and vile. But hey, one guy is on the left and one is on the right, so gosh, they must be pretty much the same, because everyone who's reasonable knows both sides do it!

That might work, for people who haven't actually watched Olbermann.

Limbaugh used to work for the Royals.

?!

Yeah, I think Rush was a KC Royals promotions director from around 1979 to 1983. He claims he and George Brett became good friends.

I heard Limbaugh tell a story some years back about how the Royals' staff played a game of touch football once and some of the Royals' players joined in, and Jamie Quirk opened the game by throwing an absolute bomb to George Brett for a TD - and Limbaugh immediately saw just how high up in the stratosphere the athletic talents of the players were compared to the average person.

I've run into athletes who are incredibly talented on occasion - in basketball, football, softball, and tennis - and when you see a player that is just on a completely different plane, it does give you an appreciation for how talented some of these athletes can be.

That might work, for people who haven't actually watched Olbermann.

You watch a lot of Olbermann, eh?

@60
We have apologized for Sabr 05.

People say things in public all the time now for which, if you had said them 40 years ago, somebody would have kicked your ass. We’ve regulated the ass-kicking, so the rudeness is out of control, and we wind up with Keith Olbermann and Rush Limbaugh doing political commentary that falls in the same general class as drunken, shirtless bellowing…

It's impossible to know anything about fact, fiction, rhetoric, or politics and think Olbermann belongs in Limbaugh's gutter; TFA will remind me to feel relief every time in the future James avoids discussing politics. Olbermann was (is? I don't keep up with his show) a very smart, sharp provocateur whose work was, for the most part, scrupulously researched; at least it was when he was with MSNBC. Limbaugh, on the other hand, is an unprincipled turd who aspires to the moral fiber of Karl Rove.

Olbermann read Thurber on the air. Case closed.

Olbermann read Thurber on the air. Case closed.

The monster.

Limbaugh used to work for the Royals.

Schuerholz writes at length about how they became friends in his book.

Shorter Something Other: "It's okay to be a jackass if you attack people I don't like."

You watch a lot of Olbermann, eh?

Well, not since he was exiled to whatever local cable access channel he's on now.

From Bill's most recent mailbag:

It was just a silly article; it's real purpose was that the previous article I had written for Grantland (the Dwight Evans article) had been rather dry, so I wrote something kind of silly to assure readers--and myself--that I wasn't becoming a dry writer...

In the process of making some silly points, I stumbled onto a serious point, so I followed that because I didn't really have anywhere else to go; I was just trying to be entertaining...

But to follow up on the serious issue since we're here. . .the key to managing the discussion is NOT to do what people are trying to do with Limbaugh now, and were trying to do to Olberman a year ago: Don't try to force them off the air. Remember back in the steroid era; people wanted a lifetime ban for everybody who ever touched steroids. That just makes the problem worse. What works is a system of SMALL penalties for SMALL transgressions, not a system of large penalties for accumulated transgressions. But trying to kill the career of somebody who says something you don't like, as was done to Jimmy the Greek and Al Campanis. ..that just makes the problem worse...

Invite Limbaugh to do better; encourage him to be a little more sensitive. Don't threaten him or pressure him...

And it works best if the government isn't in charge of the penalties and rewards.

But trying to kill the career of somebody who says something you don't like, as was done to Jimmy the Greek and Al Campanis. ..that just makes the problem worse...

Not sure how killing Campanis and the Greek's careers made the "problem" (presumably racism) worse...

EDIT: Upon re-reading, maybe the "problem" is "managing the discussion"? Still don't understand the point.

Not sure how killing Campanis and the Greek's careers made the "problem" (presumably racism) worse...

Likewise, I'm not sure how well Limbaugh and Keith will be swayed by gentle encouragement. It seems the amount of success each has enjoyed by taking the loudmouth path has been all the encouragement they've needed.

And it works best if the government isn't in charge of the penalties and rewards.

Has anyone seriously suggested this? Limbaugh's remarks cost him sponsors. It won't force him off the air, but it cost him.

When I made my (admittedly-long) post above taking on the structural reasons why opinion commentators like Limbaugh and Olbermann have proliferated recently but were largely absent during the 1940s - mid 1980s, I accepted TFA's lumping together of Limbaugh and Olbermann precisely because I did not want to get into a series of recriminations about whether Limbaugh and Olbermann really were comparable in their level of ad hominem attacks that in Bill James' view would have gotten their "asses kicked" back in a prior era. Since I am only slightly more liberal than the average Daily Kossack, I think my views on this subject might differ from others.

The basic point is: If you are in a natural monopoly setting, there are strong economic incentives to have bland, non-partisan broadcasters who engender little passionate opposition, but if you are in a niche broadcasting environment, the exact opposite is true.

Invite Limbaugh to do better; encourage him to be a little more sensitive.

"Mr. Limbaugh, would you mind spending just a couple minutes to find out the truth behind something before you spend a couple hours spouting off on it? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks."

I'm a big Bill James fan, but this is just nonsensical. You don't have to listen to Limbaugh for very long to know that he is utterly unprincipled, and will say anything to keep his listenership excited and his ratings up. He doesn't care about "doing better," unless you mean raking in even more money.

You don't have to listen to Limbaugh any TV or talk-radio personality for very long to know that he is utterly unprincipled, and will say anything to keep his listenership excited and his ratings up. He doesn't care about "doing better," unless you mean raking in even more money.

Fixed.

Post 76 is not completely true, but it is sadly close.

Well, the principled ones get weeded out. Bill Moyers comes to mind.

Moyers was the White House press secretary for LBJ. He's done a lot of good work over the years, but he's not entirely neutral or dispassionate.

"Principled" does not equal "neutral" or "dispassionate."

"Principled" does not equal "neutral" or "dispassionate."

Just the opposite, one would think.

Moyers obviously isn't a screamer or an unabashed shill, but I never saw him as a ratings-be-damned guy. Limbaugh does things to grow his audience and Moyers does (or did) the same, albeit in a much different manner.