The thing you're leaving out, though, is that the Cubs posted those below-average OBP numbers despite being above the league average in batting average:

So having a good batting average is somehow bad?

Walks are important. They should't be fetishized.

So, because Fuld's a bad hitter, that makes him a liar?

It's just another data point for the proposition that "encouraging" something doesn't produce it. (And, conversely, "not encouraging" something doesn't necessarily inhibit it.)

It's just another data point for the proposition that "encouraging" something doesn't produce it. (And, conversely, "not encouraging" something doesn't necessarily inhibit it.)

Even if that were true (and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle between plate discipline being teachable vs. "innate"), actively discouraging walks is still a sign of a horrible organization.

Even if that were true (and I think the truth is somewhere in the middle between plate discipline being teachable vs. "innate"), actively discouraging walks is still a sign of a horrible organization.

And even if that's not what they were doing, there is, to state the obvious, a shite-ton of grey area between "fetishizing" walks and "actively discouraging" them.

And even if that's not what they were doing, there is, to state the obvious, a shite-ton of grey area between "fetishizing" walks and "actively discouraging" them.

SBB doesn't recognize gray. Witness his response to the refutation of his claim that Fuld was the centerpiece of the Garza trade:

Do you think Hendry said to Friedman, "Why don't you guys take Fuld, we actively discourage walks and look how much he walked ... just think how much he'll walk for you guys?"

So having a good batting average is somehow bad?

Well, no. It's pretty clear that wasn't the claim being made, if you had any interest in having a discussion in good faith. I was merely distinguishing between the concepts of "plate discipline", which was what Theo was actually talking about, versus "OBP", a different concept which you pretended that Theo was talking about in an effort to make him look stupid (which you failed at, because you were so blatantly cherry-picking your data).

Another argument in which SBB has had his ass handed to him on a plate but can't resist digging the hole deeper. It's like a pathology.

(which you failed at, because you were so blatantly cherry-picking your data).

When he wasn't making it up....

Well, no. It's pretty clear that wasn't the claim being made, if you had any interest in having a discussion in good faith. I was merely distinguishing between the concepts of "plate discipline", which was what Theo was actually talking about, versus "OBP", a different concept which you pretended that Theo was talking about in an effort to make him look stupid (which you failed at, because you were so blatantly cherry-picking your data).

OBP was part of the way Epstein himself defined and explained "plate discipline." He also used walks. Walks are, of course, part of OBP, so I'm not sure how to interpret the construction, "We didn't walk enough. We didn't get on base enough." I do know that getting on base is more important than walking and that there are other ways to get on base than by walking.

What more is it you want? They're Epstein's words, so I tested them. If he'd used other words, I would have tested them. Did he define "plate discipline" in any other way but OBP and walks? (He also mentioned pitchers walking too many people.)

What more is it you want? They're Epstein's words, so I tested them.

No, you didn't - you went searching for data that would make him look wrong, and came up with a highly ridiculous* data set that could be very charitably described as an extremely superficial response to what Epstein actually said. And you didn't even prove what you thought you proved, as others pointed out, and as I pretty definitively demonstrated when I showed that the team had posted below-average OBP in each season but 2 over the 10 years preceding Epstein.

* - like in #8 when you averaged out the outlier 2008 season over the next few following seasons, to make it look like the team had been above average in OBP for an entire 4-year period, as if OBP carries over from year to year or something.

No, you didn't - you went searching for data that would make him look wrong, and came up with a highly ridiculous* data set that could be very charitably described as an extremely superficial response to what Epstein actually said. And you didn't even prove what you thought you proved, as others pointed out, and as I pretty definitively demonstrated when I showed that the team had posted below-average OBP in each season but 2 over the 10 years preceding Epstein.

I did nothing like that. I worked back in OBP from 2012 to 2008, saw that the Cubs had been a tad shy of league average in 2010 and 2011, above average in 2009, and first in the league in 2008, realized Epstein's claims were preposterous on their face, and said so.

If Murray Chass had said what Epstein said, he'd be getting savaged. That's the rule around here -- all inferences are drawn against Murray Chass; to spare Theo Epstein from even minor criticism, people bend over backwards to make up things Theo Epstein said.

I prefer the no sacred cow approach.

If Murray Chass had said what Epstein said, he'd be getting savaged. That's the rule around here -- all inferences are drawn against Murray Chass; to spare Theo Epstein from even minor criticism, people bend over backwards to make up things Theo Epstein said.

And here you are making up things Cubs fans have said.

I worked back in OBP from 2012 to 2008, saw that the Cubs had been a tad shy of league average in 2010 and 2011, above average in 2009, and first in the league in 2008, realized Epstein's claims were preposterous on their face, and said so.

Right, that's called "selective endpoints". And it confirms what I said - that you looked at the question just long enough to find some data insinuating that Epstein was wrong, and then stopped. That's from your own description.

If you had worked a little further back, you'd have seen that the 2008 season was plainly an outlier. They've been an above-average OBP team exactly 5 times since 1986, when I started following the team (2009, 2008, 2001, 1998, 1989). That's over a quarter century. Only you could say that it's "preposterous" for the team president to talk about their "institutionalized" OBP problems under those circumstances (which again, isn't really what Epstein was saying, but my point is that even if we frame the discussion on your terms you're still plainly up a creek).

That's the rule around here -- all inferences are drawn against Murray Chass; to spare Theo Epstein from even minor criticism, people bend over backwards to make up things Theo Epstein said.

This might be a more forceful complaint if Cubs fans hadn't been saying the same thing as Epstein since way before Epstein ever arrived on the scene. For example, Dusty's infamous "walks clog the bases" line happened before Epstein won his first title in Boston. It's hardly as if the Cubs fans in this thread have pivoted their opinions of the organization to match what the almighty Theo has said.

But then again, this way of putting words in your opponents' mouths in the course of an argument - blatant, undisguised strawman building - is pretty much the hallmark of bad faith ... which is utterly typical of you, regardless of the topic.

The top 4 levels of the Cubs minor league teams imprived from the bottom 7% in walks to nearly average in one year. Thats pretty amazing.

When Theo produces a World Series team SBB will become his biggest fan, even though SBB won't understand how Theo did it.

I count at least 14 posts in this thread that are variations on the theme "the level of emphasis an entire organization places on plate discipline can't be measured solely by looking at the OBP of the major league team." Is SBB going for the BTF record for the number of times ignoring the same extremely simple point? Because he's still got a lot of ground to make up from, say, a few Ichiro threads.

He'll never catch Ray, but dishonesty and blindness are pretty standard argumentative tactics for him.

Ugh. This thread is a trainwreck. Why feed the troll?

Please just ignore sbb. He doesnt know what he is talking about. Its bad when a the cubs fans are unified as one but that means that its a pretty solid truth if we band together like this.

This might be the most asinine thing SBB has ever said. More than any of the Jack Morris nonsense.

I still think the Jack Morris stuff was more asinine.

10. SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 24, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4282147)
...
It got worse in 2012 on his watch.


12. SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 24, 2012 at 09:32 PM (#4282229)
It doesn't matter whether it got worse on his watch

You just simply CANNOT make this stuff up (sorry if I owe Cokes; yes I did stop reading the thread at that point).