BBTF.org/m/dodgers : Eric Gagne: Me, ‘80 percent’ of Dodgers used HGH

Monday, June 17, 2013

Numbers For Dodgers Do Not Add Up As Baseball Takes More Of Team’s TV Money

(www.forbes.com)

posted 12 hours ago by pthomas to dodgers | 12 comment(s)

Forbes article discussing how the Dodgers will realize much less money from their TV contract than they expected.

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1. smileyy posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:00 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'd be curious to hear the negative health impacts he's attributing to HGH.

2. crict posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:06 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Just submitted it also. Articles in french provide a bit more details:

-According to Gagne, his three dominant seasons were tough physically: a cocktail of painkillers were needed to get through the seasons. He started using "in the second half of his career". Quotes are not clear, but he mentions using HGH to get over a minor knee injury. I believe that was in spring training 2005.
-He thinks they didn't work, believes it worsened his joint problems.
-The quote about the 80% is as follows in french: he believes that 80% of teammates used a substance or another.

3. Gamingboy posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:07 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Wonder if there are any plans for a English release.

4. Best Regards, L.M. posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:09 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

People who use always think that "everyone is doing it".

5. crict posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:24 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

I just read a few more articles in french on this:

-one claimed the 3-year period that he admits using is 2002-04. Not clear from the actual quotes of the book I've seen.
-he openly discussed his use with a team doctor while with the Dodgers. Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.
-claims his career was cut short (4-5 years) because of his use.

6. Walt Davis posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:28 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

1. Unless recent studies have found otherwise, the evidence is that HGH doesn't enhance performance.

2. He is admitting use AFTER his period of dominance. Of course I haven't read the book, maybe he discusses actual PED use earlier in his career as well.

3. The cocktail of painkillers is quite believable and is reminiscent of Clemens' use of Vioxx late in his career (before it was taken off the market -- I assume he just switched to another powerful painkiller). Nobody seems to consider these PEDs although it seems they are often considered essential to take the field.

4. Regarding the 80%, "substance" is awfully broad.

EDIT: 5. Surely it should be "I, 80 percent of Dodgers used HGH." Also since he's talking the last 3 years of his career, his teammates were Dodgers only for the first of those years.

EDIT 2: Now I see #5 so maybe he is talking about his dominant period. That would at least be a story.

7. morineko posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:28 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Oh, great, a book about a Brewer that I can't read. Wrong second language. Help. Anyone know if he discusses anything about the 2008 team in there?

8. Dale Sams posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:55 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Can we have David Murphy back now?

9. crict posted on September 25, 2012 at 10:56 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

To clarify post #5, from what I can gather, he admits that he started using after a minor knee injury, during his great stretch. Most likely during 2004 season or in 2005, when he suffered a knee injury in ST, modified his motion and blew his arm.

10. spycake posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:04 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Maybe HGH means something different in French? Le HGH?

11. Random Transaction Generator posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:12 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

-he openly discussed his use with a team doctor while with the Dodgers. Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.

This is the money quote that the owners/Selig don't want to be true/heard.

If the teams were HELPING the players use the evil drugs...

12. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:19 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Maybe HGH means something different in French? Le HGH?

Probably le AJWE, pronounced "HGH". For no other reason than so they can correct you when you say it wrong.

13. ShoeGrit posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:21 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

This is the money quote that the owners/Selig don't want to be true/heard.

If the teams were HELPING the players use the evil drugs...

If ? If ?

I'm sure plenty of guys used PED's without help from any club personnel. I am equally sure that plenty of guys used PED's with assistance from some club personnel. Does anyone really believe any differently ?

I guess it is pretty big news to have that accusation out there in a book though.

14. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:27 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

The ultimate PED: HGH is the perfect drug because it doesn't do anything and it's evil

15. crict posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:37 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Ok, found an excerpt from the book (in french).

-Started using prior to 2002 season. Really wanted to make the team that year, had a plan to try out as a reliever after failing as a starter, but had a knee injury and wanted to be ready for spring training.
-Got them from a teammate.
-Mentions he had two experiences with PED before: in 2000, a teammate put a greenie in his coffee after he complained of tired legs. In 2001, while in the Dodgers clubhouse, heard a discussion between a trainer, a team doctor and an unidentified third person about HGH: Third person (player?) asked about HGH, their effects. He was told that that were undetectable, legal and able to cut recovery time in half.

16. Gold Star - just Gold Star posted on September 25, 2012 at 11:43 PM # hit 0 | hit 0

Wasn't it already known the Dodgers were heavy into PEDs at that time? LoDuca, for one. Todd Hundley, IIRC, was sort of the team's Patient Zero when it came to that thing.

17. Tripon posted on September 26, 2012 at 12:19 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The scuttlebutt is that DePo and the Dodgers front office at the time knew about the steroid culture and tried to clean it up as much as they could. Not because they thought it was morally wrong, but because they didn't want to be caught with declining players when they juice off. Of course, these moves got Bill Plaschke and T.J. Simers to go nuclear on DePo.

18. ShoeGrit posted on September 26, 2012 at 12:23 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The scuttlebutt is that DePo and the Dodgers front office at the time knew about the steroid culture and tried to clean it up as much as they could. Not because they thought it was morally wrong, but because they didn't want to be caught with declining players when they juice off. Of course, these moves got Bill Plaschke and T.J. Simers to go nuclear on DePo.

Plaschke and Simers articles blasting Depo for allowing culture of drugs in clubhouse in 3.2.1.....

19. cardsfanboy

posted on September 26, 2012 at 12:30 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think the 80% number is massively high, people are horrible at estimating percentages unless they take the time to really think about it. On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using? That just seems like an absurdly high number.

20. ShoeGrit posted on September 26, 2012 at 12:48 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

People said the same thing when Caminiti said it was at least half.

21. cardsfanboy

posted on September 26, 2012 at 12:52 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

And I think people are right.

22. ShoeGrit posted on September 26, 2012 at 01:27 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think when Caminiti said it he was right.

23. ShoeGrit posted on September 26, 2012 at 01:28 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

double

24. boteman posted on September 26, 2012 at 01:33 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Is it still OK to listen to Vin Scully at least???

25. KT's Pot Arb posted on September 26, 2012 at 02:00 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.

Isn't this the way it should be? A Doctor's job is to advise you in how to protect your health. If you are going to undertake any drug regime you would think any Doctor, whether on team payroll or not, would do their best to ensure you do it as safely as possible. Even if it was non-prescription. Even if it's against MLB rules, especially during a period where the MLB did not have the right to test or punish players for using PEDs.

I would think the Doctor offering correct medical advice is morally correct in doing so even the drugs are illegal. Doctors can't stop patients from doing many things, but they can try to help and protect them as best as possible.

26. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong posted on September 26, 2012 at 02:55 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

A Doctor's job is to advise you in how to protect your health.

In that case shouldn't the doctor have advised against the use of HGH and greenies?

27. Robert in Manhattan Beach posted on September 26, 2012 at 03:09 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think the 80% number is massively high

I love it when people do this. "I have no way of knowing anything about it, but I'm going to say that the guy who was right in the middle of the situation is completely wrong". Self confidence: A blessing and a curse.

28. AJM posted on September 26, 2012 at 03:38 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

In that case shouldn't the doctor have advised against the use of HGH and greenies?

Who said he didn't?

29. BrianBrianson posted on September 26, 2012 at 04:27 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using?

Assuming PEDs actually improve performance, when you were functionally allowed to use them, you'd have to be stupid not to. I could believe only 5 of the 25 Dodgers were stupid, though it does seem like a low number.

30. Walt Davis posted on September 26, 2012 at 05:16 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I could believe only 5 of the 25 Dodgers were stupid, though it does seem like a low number.

10 dogs >> 5 Dodgers >> 1 LaSorda

31. Walt Davis posted on September 26, 2012 at 05:26 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

On percentage usage, it depends on usage of what.

I assume roughly 100% of professional athletes use anything and everything they think is legal and effective.

I assume a good chunk of the stuff they thought was legal wasn't.

I assume a good chunk of the stuff that was legal had some nasty #### in it -- because that's an unregulated industry not to mention all the guys getting stuff in the DR.

I assume an extremely high percentage of baseball players used greenies. They were ubiquitous, they had special players' coffee for crying out loud. Anybody who didn't use them probably didn't use them because they had a bad reaction. And note we still have a fairly high number of exemptions for ADHD prescriptions.

Then you get steroids, etc. on top of that.

Now I assume Gagne means "illegal" substances but I don't expect Gagne to know what's legal or not nor do I expect him to really know what guys were on.

32. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong posted on September 26, 2012 at 05:56 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Who said he didn't?

Who said the doctor was a "he"? Obviously the doctor didn't stop at "I advise you not to use these things", if the doctor of indeterminate gender also said that if you plan to use these things you should follow protocol. The very fact that there was a "protocol" for performance enhancement is telling.

Assuming PEDs actually improve performance, when you were functionally allowed to use them, you'd have to be stupid not to.

Only if you think caring about your long term health is stupid

33. Lassus posted on September 26, 2012 at 08:04 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Human nature being what it is, I'm more inclined to believe Gagne is covering his ass, than his figures. Consciously or subconsciously.

34. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit posted on September 26, 2012 at 08:28 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Is it still OK to listen to Vin Scully at least???

His career has been curiously long and with an unusually high peak.

And don't even get me started on that rather suspicious hair.

35. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:04 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think the 80% number is massively high, people are horrible at estimating percentages unless they take the time to really think about it. On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using? That just seems like an absurdly high number.

Not that he's the most reliable source, but this is the same figure Jose Canseco pegged total PED usage at. Basically, 4 out of every 5 ballplayers are doing *something* to get ahead. The rest either look it but somehow aren't (Frank Thomas) or were hyper-athletic freaks (Ken Griffey Jr.)

36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:25 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

37. cardsfanboy

posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:49 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I love it when people do this. "I have no way of knowing anything about it, but I'm going to say that the guy who was right in the middle of the situation is completely wrong". Self confidence: A blessing and a curse.

The guy in the middle of it, unless he has trained himself to be objective, is probably the last guy you want to ask that question from. I know people who swear that 80% of the people on the planet are habitual pot smokers, because the group they hang with, that is the case. I can grab another group and they'll say less than 10%.

I do not think for a second, that in a group of 25 or so people, that one person is privy to all 25 drug habits, to the point that they could make a definitive number. Heck, I doubt that Gagne could name even 8 people who he knew for a fact that used(talking about first hand knowledge he had while he was playing, not after the fact knowledge) . People don't hang in larger groups than that frequently enough to know that type of information.

If I'm doing enhancements, I sure as hell don't let the rest of the team know in case they get traded, or if there is a personal fight with them etc. Even if the doctors are helping, unless it's my workout partner, I'm not going to be advertising my use to everyone on the team. I know athletes are dumb, but generally nobody is that dumb.

38. Matt Clement of Alexandria posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:50 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm fairly confident that if I told my doctor I was going to start using cocaine, the only advice would be "Don't"

A doctor won't advise you on how to take illegal drugs b/c they'd open themselves to liability in the case that you follow their advice, and have bad health effects.

I should ask the doctor in the house, as I think this is broadly correct, but there's a significant difference between illegal drugs that have bad health effects, and illegal drugs that don't. She's never advised someone (other than psych patients) against taking marijuana because, well, it isn't bad for you to any meaningful degree. But she has a very pointed "cocaine kills people" speech. HGH looks a lot more like marijuana than cocaine to me.

(This doesn't mean she has or would advise a certain protocol of marijuana use, so your basic point is correct. But there's a distinction to be made here between cocaine and HGH.)

39. Shooty is in the Trust Tree

posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:57 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

My GP told me to have a good time when I went off to college regarding alcohol and drugs. His advice was moderation, but that if I didn't go overboard drugs wouldn't hurt me. This was a doctor at Kaiser Permanente, too, not some quirky independent practice. I didn't do any drugs normally so I thought his advice was pretty funny.

If I'm doing enhancements, I sure as hell don't let the rest of the team know in case they get traded, or if there is a personal fight with them etc. Even if the doctors are helping, unless it's my workout partner, I'm not going to be advertising my use to everyone on the team. I know athletes are dumb, but generally nobody is that dumb.

I think at the time we're talking about, the PEDs were so ubiquitous and banal no one cared. I doubt the players were keeping these things secret from each other. I wouldn't be surprised if they were exchanging regimen tips.

40. Nasty Nate posted on September 26, 2012 at 09:57 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm fairly confident that if I told my doctor I was going to start using cocaine, the only advice would be "Don't"

A good doctor would both tell you "Don't" (and explain why) but also be willing to offer harm-reduction advice if you insisted on ignoring his recommendation and planned on using.

41. The Long Arm of Rudy Law posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Gagne's drug use has ruined "Welcome to the Jungle" for me.

42. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

A doctor won't advise you on how to take illegal drugs b/c they'd open themselves to liability in the case that you follow their advice, and have bad health effects.

This is a very very naive claim. I have a great doctor too, one who would never condone something like this, but to believe that all doctors act this way in order to profit is to deny a fundamental (if morally dubious) aspect of human nature to a whole profession. Do you also think no lawyers instruct their clients to act illegally?

43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:24 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Do you also think no lawyers instruct their clients to act illegally?

Sure, but then they're acting as co-conspirators, not lawyers.

I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.

44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:26 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Is he removing himself from consideration from the Rolaids Relief Man Award?

45. Nasty Nate posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:26 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.

well, not illegal ones...

46. depletion posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:27 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

Here's a tip. If you want to sell a lot of copies of a baseball book, write it in a) English, b)Spanish or c) Japanese.

47. bunyon posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:28 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.

A reputable doctor will also advise moderation if one insists on smoking. Or eating fried foods. Doctors are supposed to help you, not lecture to you or preach to you. They say "you shouldn't" but, if you do, then, for the love of god, don't do it "this way".

48. Greg Schuler posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think the distinction needs to be made between a Doctor and a Team Doctor. A Team Doctor will do whatever the team needs to keep players on the fields - I would guess the attitude does not differ much between sports. Isn't the competency of some medical staffs routinely called into question? It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a Team Doctor did whatever it took continue as the Team Doctor, as I believe it has a measurable impact on their practice and income. Therefore, a player receiving advice from a Team Doctor about using illegal drugs or substances doesn't surprise me one bit. I am happy to proved wrong, but the public knowledge of the actions of Team Doctors in other sports doesn't lead me to believe that those associated with baseball teams are moral paragons of the Hippocratic oath.

49. Shooty is in the Trust Tree

posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

The best team doctor story comes from rugby in England. I don't know much about rugby but evidently there is a rule against substitutions at some point except in the case of injury. In one game, a particular team wanted to sub a guy when they had no subs left so the player feigned an injury and when the team doctor went out to check on him, the team doctor cut the player open so they could sub the player off. Unfortunately for all involved it was caught on tape and the doctor ended up losing his license to practice.

50. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) posted on September 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM # hit 0 | hit 0

I think at the time we're talking about, the PEDs were so ubiquitous and banal no one cared. I doubt the players were keeping these things secret from each other. I wouldn't be surprised if they were exchanging regimen tips.

The steroid firestorm began in earnest in '02 with the Caminiti revelation (a decade later and we're STILL trying to clean this mess up in the court of public opinion!) The entirety of Gagne's big run took place during the steroid wars, which only really began to recede after the publication of the Mitchell Report and the step back towards historically normal run levels.

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Monday, June 17, 2013

Numbers For Dodgers Do Not Add Up As Baseball Takes More Of Team’s TV Money

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