Minaya can go to hell. I still haven't forgiven him.

I'll always say that Minaya's focus was always to put his name in the news as much as he could to get another job. It was always clear that contraction was never going to happen.

The second Bartolo trade was even worse. After tons and tons of rumors, he went to the White Sox for El Duke, Jeff Liefer and Rocky Biddle. Minaya had insisted on "major-league ready" players...

Holy crap. I forgot that Cliff Lee was also part of that deal.

The WAR differential for the four players involved since that trade has been 67-14.

The second Bartolo trade was even worse. After tons and tons of rumors, he went to the White Sox for El Duke, Jeff Liefer and Rocky Biddle. Minaya had insisted on "major-league ready" players...

Oh god, I had forgotten that. I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Oh god, I had forgotten that. I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Duque never played for the Expos. By WAR, that makes him the most valuable Expo of the three.

I think Liefer and Biddle were out of baseball within a year.

Of course, a few years after the trade while playing for the Brewers AAA team, Liefer got locked in the bathroom during a minor league game.

Yeah, I don't really believe that GMs from around the league actually thought there was going to be contraction. I don't even think Bud really believed that was going to happen.

The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

How the heck is that even allowable? I know Bolshevik Bud's interpretation of "best interests of baseball" was largely focused on using Mr. Steinbrenner's hard-earned money to "make it rain" for his homies but surely stealing all of a team's developmental system reports and giving them to a competing franchise has to be afoul of any honest interpretation of the clause..

I don't see why those scouting reports would be all that valuable. All they said in the reports were "will look good in pinstripes" over and over again.

How the heck is that even allowable?

Because Minaya didn't object to it, apparently.

Minaya had been named GM just a few days before spring training started. The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

Loria is worse than Castro.

Loved that trade, but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did. We got basically nothing for a future All-Star 2nd baseman because he wanted Ramon Vazquez as his utility infielder and Brandon Phillips wouldn't play the humble, carry your bags rookie.

Eric Wedge is a bit of a baby. Its his way or the highway, but he hasn't even proven that his #### works like Tony LaRussa has.

Loria also got in the "deal" most of the staff (well, all those that he wanted) and the spring training complex in Jupiter completed in 1998, just before he arrived.

And thanks to Loria and Minaya's machinations, Washington was left holding the bag by decade's end.

How the heck is that even allowable?

That was a complete joke, everyone even said so at the time. How to you even have the balls to ask for that, I wonder?

He still needs to explain why he couldn't have done better.

but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did

Phillips certainly didn't help his case with his 48 OPS+ over almost 500 major league plate appearances up to that point, and putting up a decent, but not great .740 OPS in AAA despite repeating the level 3 times. You can piss off your manager after you play like an all-star, but it's tough to get away with that when you barely look like a utility infielder.

Of course, about ten years earlier, the Expos traded Randy Johnson, Gene Harris and Brian Holman for a few months of Mark Langston. I remember thinking at the time that the deal was great for the Mariners, because i was convinced that Gene Harris was going to be the closer of the '90s.

Minaya is lieing. No-one really thought tat contraction was going to happen. And he didn't give a damn about the Expos - this was just his chance to make aspash so that he coud land a real job somewhere else. And even f he did believe that contraction was coming, that doesn't excuse massively overpaying for Colon. If he thought contraction was coming and that Expos minor leaguers had no value to the franchise and that it was all or nothing for the team, at the very least he could have made sure that he got good value for te players he did trade, instead of throwing away all his chips for Colon. Don't forget that Minaya also threw away Jason Bay for Lou "about to be released by the Mets" Collier at the end of spring training. Imagine how much better off that franchise would have been with Sizemore, Bay, Lee, and Phillips a few years later. Or in Minaya had been able to get fair value for those players. Incompetent self-promoting #######.

I remember thinking at the time that the deal was great for the Mariners, because i was convinced that Gene Harris was going to be the closer of the '90s.

That's funny because I thought Brian Holman was the real catch. I thought he was going to be a workhorse - consistent 15 game winner, 225 innings-eater. He had like two "meh" years as a back of the rotation guy. I thought Randy Johnson might be an okay reliever if he could ever learn to throw strikes.

Eephus,

The Langston/Johnson trade was defensible,because the Expos thought they were close to contending, ans acquired one of the best SPs in the game at the time (and he actually pitched very well for the Expos). And Johnson didn't turn into Randy Johnson Awesome Pitcher for 4-5 years after the trade. The Expos also drafted Rondell White with one of the picks they gt when Langston left as a free agent, which helped mitigate the sting a little bit.

You know, if Randy Johnson had figured out the flaw in his delivery that Nolan Ryan pointed out when he was 21 instead of when he was 28, he might have broken Ryan's strikeout record.

Imagine how much better off that franchise would have been with Sizemore, Bay, Lee, and Phillips a few years later.

They also gave Jake Westbrook and Ted Lilly away for Fat Toad Irabu (pre-Minaya), although in fairness both bounced around before becoming decent. Not to mention all the MLB talent they gave away.

Just imagine - in 1999, the Expos had Jose Vidro, Orlando Cabrera, Rondell White, Michael Barrett, Vlad Guerrero, Javy Vazquez, Dustin Hermanson, Ugueth Urbina, Carl Pavano all in their primes, with Jason Bay, Milton Bradley, Jamey Carroll, Ted Lilly, Jake Westbrook, Brian Schneider, Brad Wilkerson, and Brandon Phillips in the minors. No one thought this was a valuable asset to buy? The Royals or Pirates didn't think "hey, we'll buy the Expos and relocate them and you can contract our sorry-ass franchise"?

I'll always say that Minaya's focus was always to put his name in the news as much as he could to get another job. It was always clear that contraction was never going to happen.

Even if it was clear that the Expos weren't going to be contracted, and it wasn't "always clear," what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

The Expos fans didn't care about the franchise's future, because any future the team was going to have wasn't going to be in Montreal. The franchise wasn't owned by anyone in particular at the time, just MLB. MLB wouldn't even let the Expos spend 50k on bringing up September call ups in 2003. Minaya knew that even if the team wasn't contracted, the future of the team wasn't something anyone wanted to be a part of.

Why not just go nuts and trade for Bartolo? Who did he really screw over by doing that?
He didn't screw Washington fans, since the Expos weren't their team when he made the trade. He didn't screw over Montreal fans, because Lee and Phillips weren't ever going to play in Montreal. He didn't screwed MLB, because that trade didn't affect the value of the franchise.

MLB was screwin the franchise, go for broke and stick it to 'em by trading everyone away and trying to win all the games you can before the end.

I would have done the same thing.

How the heck is that even allowable? I know Bolshevik Bud's interpretation of "best interests of baseball" was largely focused on using Mr. Steinbrenner's hard-earned money to "make it rain" for his homies but surely stealing all of a team's developmental system reports and giving them to a competing franchise has to be afoul of any honest interpretation of the clause

Because, to repeat myself, no one cared about the long term prospect of the Expos (as far as talent goes), thus it was unreasonable to expect Minaya to care.

The Expos were an old ship. You gut the inside, rip anything useful out of there and take it with you.

Because, to repeat myself, no one cared about the long term prospect of the Expos (as far as talent goes), thus it was unreasonable to expect Minaya to care.

But what about the man charged with protecting the best interests of baseball?

what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

I'll agree that Minaya was no worse than everybody else in how he treated the franchise. There's still no excuse for not getting the most out of his trading chips. The franchise was not going to self-destruct in the next 24 hours.

To me a better job audition would have involved a competent performance in the GM chair. By giving away gift baskets only a few other teams were ina position to appreciate the generosity of spirit. In fact, the other organizations in the division where these guys played for the next six years were probably a little chapped.

To me a better job audition would have involved a competent performance in the GM chair.

Ended up not mattering, right? Minaya was hired back by the Mets after the Zambrano/Kazmir debacle, with Wilpon under pressure to name a GM to unambiguously lead the confusingly organized front office. Not totally convinced that he really needed to do that, he just picked someone he was familiar with.

pedro trade to the a.l. no picnic for those guys either

The Twins have nothing to show for the Santana trade.

Deolis Guerra is still hanging around at AA

Even if it was clear that the Expos weren't going to be contracted, and it wasn't "always clear," what WAS always clear is that no one really cared about the long term health of the Expos franchise.

I agree. I don't know what everyone else in this thread was hearing back in 2002, but the only thing that was clear re: the Expos franchise was that they were screwed. There was definitely a point where it looked like they were going to be contracted, then there was a point where it looked like they were going to be moved or someone was going to buy them, there were points when it looked like they were going to continue in Montreal with lame duck status. When the trade occurred people thought the Expos were giving up a big package (though Brandon Phillips's stock was down - he was considered to have an attitude problem, deserved or not), but were largely applauded for going for it because there was no future anyway, the team had started out "hot" (not actually, they were .500 but were only a few games out after having been doormats for the last previous 5 years), and there was a what-the-hell-we're-goin'-down-swinging feel to the move, which people tend to like.

The primary objection people raised at the time was less that Minaya had given up a ton and more that he had made the move a month or so too late - the Expos were only a few games out early on and were the Story Of Baseball - by the time they got Colon the team had fallen back (BBRef says they were 6.5 games out when they made the trade, whereas they spent most of May a game or two out) and it was clear the magic had cooled. What people said on June 27 was that they should have made the move in May so they would have had an ace to ride all year long and keep it alive.

It was a prospect trade. And a weird one at that. Phillips had been highly regarded in the minors, but some of the luster was off. He's since become a star. Sizemore was a star, then got hurt and is now nothing. Lee looked like he was on the long path out at 28, then overnight turned into a frigging stud. Colon pitched well for the Expos, got everyone excited when he ripped off a string of complete games (when Sabathia was traded to the Brewers and started throwing CGs every time out he reminded me of Colon for the Expos in 2002, though of vastly, vastly, vastly higher quality), and the Expos finished with a winning record after being a 68-win team the year before.

Loved that trade, but I still want to fight Eric Wedge for forcing out Brandon Phillips when he did. We got basically nothing for a future All-Star 2nd baseman because he wanted Ramon Vazquez as his utility infielder and Brandon Phillips wouldn't play the humble, carry your bags rookie.

Eric Wedge prefers that his players be A. white and B. WSU graduates.

Minaya had been named GM just a few days before spring training started. The Expos didn’t even have scouting reports on their own minor leaguers; their previous owner, Jeffrey Loria, had taken them to his new team, the Florida Marlins.

How is this even possible? Was there only one typed copy?

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

The truly amazing thing about the trade was how well the three prospects turned out. I'd wager that this was the only trade in major league history where a team got three guys who had never played a game in the big leagues that later went on to be All-Stars.

The truly amazing thing about the trade was how well the three prospects turned out. I'd wager that this was the only trade in major league history where a team got three guys who had never played a game in the big leagues that later went on to be All-Stars.

Didn't the O's get Rick Dempsey, Tippy Martinez and another good player from the Yankees for somebody like Ken Holtzman?

Edit: Here's the trade.

June 15, 1976: Traded by the New York Yankees with Tippy Martinez, Rudy May, Scott McGregor and Dave Pagan to the Baltimore Orioles for Doyle Alexander, Jimmy Freeman, Elrod Hendricks, Ken Holtzman and Grant Jackson.

Close but no cigar. McGregor fits the bill, but Dempsey and Martinez had cups of coffee with the Yankees, and Dempsey never made an AS team, which shocks me. How the hell do you play 24 years as an average to better C, and never make even a token AS game appearance?

The Yankees traded Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan (who was technically in the majors, but still young) and Dave Collins for something called Dale Murray...

Why not just go nuts and trade for Bartolo? Who did he really screw over by doing that?
He didn't screw Washington fans, since the Expos weren't their team when he made the trade. He didn't screw over Montreal fans, because Lee and Phillips weren't ever going to play in Montreal. He didn't screwed MLB, because that trade didn't affect the value of the franchise.

He screwed fans of the White Sox, Twins and Tigers.

Didn't the O's get Rick Dempsey, Tippy Martinez and another good player from the Yankees for somebody like Ken Holtzman?

Dempsey and Martinez were both in the majors at the time. They did get Scott McGregor in that trade, who fills the bill.

The Yankees traded Fred McGriff, Mike Morgan (who was technically in the majors, but still young) and Dave Collins for something called Dale Murray...

Collins was a long-time major leaguer at the time of the trade, and was never an All-Star.

Twins got Liriano and Nathan -- plus Boof Bonser, who was supposed to be the best of the three -- for AJ Pierogi...

There's the infamous Glenn Davis trade (Finley, Schilling, and someone else... though - the Astros didn't technically get all the WAR out of the bounty they got).

EDIT: Pete Harnisch... who if memory serves, actually gave the Astros the most direct value

Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Salty and Matt Harrison for Teixeira?

Randy Johnson for Freddy Garcia and Carlos Guillen comes close.

I was discussing this trade with a friend just the other day.

Me: Who would have thought in 2007 that Lee and Phillips would be way more valuable than Sizemore?
Him: Who would have thought that Colon would be way more valuable than Sizemore?
Me: LOL

But what about the man charged with protecting the best interests of baseball?

Worse than Castro, who at least doesn't look like Stephen Hawking after a beating.

How is this even possible? Was there only one typed copy?

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

At least according to some reports back then, Loria took everything with him to the Marlins. Even things which would be useless to Florida, like lifesized standup cardboard cutouts of Vlad Guerrero in an Expos uniform. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they just took all the PCs with them too, including any servers and every hard copy of any file they could get their hands on.

He really did everything he could to completely gut the Expos when he left.

At least according to some reports back then, Loria took everything with him to the Marlins. Even things which would be useless to Florida, like lifesized standup cardboard cutouts of Vlad Guerrero in an Expos uniform. It wouldn't surprise me at all if they just took all the PCs with them too, including any servers and every hard copy of any file they could get their hands on.

He really did everything he could to completely gut the Expos when he left.

Wow!

Still hard to believe none of the remaining employees had a hard copy. He didn't take absolutely everyone. You'd think one of the leave behinds would have seen what they were doing, and taken some critical materials home with them.

Surely the reports existed on a PC somewhere in Expos' HQ. Or someone had a hard copy laying around that they could xerox.

Expos' HQ was literally emptied by Loria when he left. He left with everything: staff, computers, files, etc. When the new management got in, they found empty desolated rooms. They had to start from scratch. It was sad, really. Well, the whole saga was sad. I don't even know who to blame anymore.

[Edit: Coke to RJ]

Elvis Andrus, Neftali Feliz, Salty and Matt Harrison for Teixeira?

Andrus and Feliz fit the parameters already, so all we need is for Matt Harrison to make an All-Star team for this trade to match up. (Salty had already played in the majors before he was traded.)