87 total yards on 27 plays for the Pack in that 1st half. You don't see that too much anymore in the new video game NFL era.

I do not think it's a coincidence that the pass happy teams have come back to earth -- and in many cases starting running the ball -- in the era of replacement refs. While I don't think they really blow that many (more) critical plays [ I mean other than the well documented time out and crowd control shenanigans ], I do think they are "letting them play" and in particular DBs are "mauling" receivers (in video game era sense).

I also would not be surprised to see that holding on the OL on running plays is not getting called so much, but I think that they are calling it on the (more obvious) passing plays.

I sort of assume this is just an accident and not Pete Goodell Secret Enforcement Order.

That looked like an interception to me.

Goodbye, replacement refs.

I don't know if I've ever seen a group of referees ruin a game like they did this one.

The rule is that if a defensive and offensive player both have equal control of a ball, possession goes to the offense. It sure looked like the defensive player had more of the ball than the receiver, though.

It seems to me that since penalty calls are pretty much random now, it's led to players basically doing whatever they want and hoping they get away with it. Sometimes they do get away with it, sometimes they don't, and sometimes they get flagged for doing nothing, so you might as well go for broke. It sure makes for sloppy football.

This is the end of the replacement refs is very true...

They let Tate get away with offensive PI on the last play too

$20 says there's still replacement refs next week.

Good thing they had instant replay. Otherwise the NFL would get the calls wrong.

Money was heavy on Green Bay tonight in Vegas, reportedly. And, one presumes, with the illegal books as well. The house made out like bandits with this result. Hmmm.

Goodbye, replacement refs.

i doubt it.


the referees have no leverage. people are ######## about the replacements, yeah, but they're still buying tickets. they're still watching games on television. they're still writing about it on the internet and talking about it at the office the next day.

going back to last year, going back to the players' lockout, the NFL was willing to kill the entire season right up until the point where it would have cost them money. with the referees, there's no such penalty. the league is making more money than ever, so, really, what incentive is there for the league to cave on any of the referees demands?

It's open revolt about the replacement refs on Twitter from players, media, and fans.
The MNF crew was openly mocking the final ruling.

And I continue to not follow the NFL because it employes Michael Vick.

Stop using the euphemism "replacement" and call them what they really are -- non-union or scab refs. (Of course, this comes from someone who makes it a point to call those games in August "exhibition" games, not the silly term "preseason." Could you imagine MLB trying that?)

These dreadful officials distort the 2012 season every bit as much as the non-union players who were in three games that counted distorted the 1987 season.

Steagles has a point... it's actually become kind of an entertaining sideshow.
It was a 4 point spread, too, so GB was poised to cover.

At first I thought calling a TD instead of INT made sense because "scoring plays are reviewable"... but inside 2 minutes all plays are reviewable on the booth's decision.

@206 - the other thing is that every single incomplete pass results in a receiver making a beef about "where's the flag?" QBs have been doing this for a couple of years now in the "15 yard penalty... Touching the Brady" era, and WRs did it a bit, but not all the time.

That was the most bizarre thing in sports I have seen in my life. And even in my relatively short life, I have seen many bizarre things.

$20 says there's still replacement refs next week.

If there are, I'm not watching.

Why are people acting as if the regular refs are any good? The two ref camps seem the same to me.

At first I thought calling a TD instead of INT made sense because "scoring plays are reviewable"... but inside 2 minutes all plays are reviewable on the booth's decision.

I thought somebody (ex-ref?) on ESPN said that the actual possession question wasn't reviewable - that is, the booth couldn't change the call from catch to interception. All that was reviewable was whether the ball hit the ground (and, of course, it didn't, because it was nestled safely against Jennings' chest). Which is incredibly stupid if true. What's the point of reviewing the play if you're limited in how "right" you can get the play? I think I agree with Gamingboy - probably the most bizarre thing in sports I've seen: if not the play itself, certainly the aftermath, where the ENTIRE postgame conversation focused on the obvious wrongness of the final play.

The only thing that I can remember that was even close to this bizarre (and involved refs) was the 1972 Olympics. I wasn't around then, though.

What was so "bizarre" about this ending?

Gruden himself said that the refs never call the push-off from the offensive player on the game-ending hail marys. So that can't be a replacement ref issue.

And as for the interception, I agree it was an interception - though it wasn't THAT clear, especially with the naked eye - but what makes people think the regular refs wouldn't have screwed it up?

If you were a replacement ref, what incentive do you have to NOT consort with gamblers and fix games?

You'll never work for the NFL again? Is it actually criminal? I guess you could be subject to a civil suit.

But how could you ever prove anything? It's all judgement calls... and what if you just said "Yeah, I blew that call. My bad." I guess all you have to do is document payoffs by a gambling interest - doesn't matter what actions you take/don't take during game.

Is there a reason Steve Young looks 30 instead of 50?

a true WWF moment. My favorites, the two refs making opposite calls standing two feet from one another. Then following the review, Pete Carroll acting like Jimmy Hart, sans the megaphone after the Ref announced the ruling on the field was a TD.

Ray, I think it would be hard to argue on a judgement call (i.e, PI, holding, some fouls and spots) basis that replacements are *empirically* worse. I do think they are getting intimidated by coaches and players, and they are screwing up "easy stuff" like number of timeouts, and edge-case rules.

And they do seem subjectively worse - i.e, more calls seem just pure randomness - but it's extremely hard to be objective about it. It's even worse in situations like this Monday Night Game where the ESPN announcers just rip into them.

Normally - I just assume the announcers are wrong and ignore them, but they can be persuasive in an emotional sense.

@225.. it was so WWF I am beginning to wonder if that isn't the NFLs intent. "Are you not entertained???"

What I'm wondering is whether the replacement refs are actually worse, or whether the spotlight is on them so people are complaining more.

Because the regular refs suck ass as it is.

The replacement refs are just making so many little mistakes about the rules. Lions-Titans game they mark off a penalty wrong (from the Detroit 44 instead of the Titans 44), spotting the ball in bad places, not knowing how many timeouts teams have, etc. Apparently if Aaron Rodgers was to be believed they gave him the kicking ball during the 2 point conversion. Things like that are not good. The judgement calls, eh whatever I agree-some of the regular refs are not much better. But they don't know the basics....

What I'm wondering is whether the replacement refs are actually worse, or whether the spotlight is on them so people are complaining more.

Well, to give you an idea of the quality of refs that are acting as replacements right now, I'll point out that some of them had been fired before for incompetence...

...by the Lingerie Football League.

Isn't that an example that the rules as is is actually too complicated?

I think your natural iconclasm is good in this instance Ray. I *think* the replacements have been worse. They *seem* worse to me. I am a pretty objective sports viewer... but I am not sure that I can untangle my knowledge that the refs are inexperienced, and the constant harping from the fans, players, and media - from my (as unbiased as possible) observations.

What's interesting is that with the all-22 (Coaches) film this year - some really bored person COULD go back and document all instances of holding/PI etc on every play this year... but ironically there's no film available from last year to compare it! I suppose you could make do with the regular TV feed (if you had all 256 games), but I think you couldn't possibly make an inference of all the NON calls that could occurring, and that might leave 1/2 the data or more "on the field".

I actually have not thought the regular NFL refs were particularly bad. I mean, they made some mistakes for sure. I don't think MLB umpires are in general really bad- although I think that robots should call balls and strikes (affirmative action just for you, Ray)

Heh.

@230 is a great example. Deadspin has been SHREDDING the replacements unmercifully. And in an entertaining manner.

Would they get as many hits writing articles like "Replacement refs not really that bad". I don't think so. I think they feed of the (perceived) failure.

Like I said - I cannot objectively tell whether the refs are worse. And if there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, it would look just like this. But how can you tell?

Stefan Fatsis@stefanfatsis
Ref who signaled TD does JUCO football and basketball in California. One who didn't has reffed Big 12, arena and NFL Europe.

@230 is a great example. Deadspin has been SHREDDING the replacements unmercifully. And in an entertaining manner.

Would they get as many hits writing articles like "Replacement refs not really that bad". I don't think so. I think they feed of the (perceived) failure.

Like I said - I cannot objectively tell whether the refs are worse. And if there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, it would look just like this. But how can you tell?

Things in the scab refs disfavor:

People are now aware of the poor resumes of some of them.

The procedural errors (awarding too many timeouts) that would be big news even once with the regular crew.

Replacement authority figures are treated differently than other sorts of replacements.

The NFL has chosen to keep them nameless on screen. Trying to protect them I guess, but it reduces sympathy if they are just anonymous. Real refs have names.

I'm surprised they've lost the broadcasters. Hard to do. I did not watch the 1987 scab games, but I don't think they lost the broadcasters back then. Of course that was a strike and you had players crossing, different situation. This is a lockout, plus with this particular group of guys (refs) all of them have full time jobs anyway, so they are not going to be missing the paycheck all that much.

it doesn't seem that far-fetches to me if the current officials say to h8ck with it

unless the league has promised something extraordinary why take all the abuse?

green bay should have scored more points

#### the NFL owners. They want to destroy the pension plan for the players, and beating the officials is just laying the groundwork. They can take their 401k proposals and shove them up their asses.

Reffing the Big 12 and NFL Europe seems to pretty much make you qualified in my book. That's about as good as non NFL experience gets.

if the info is accurate several of the refs on the field had been fired by the pac 10 which is infamous for its low reffing quality

Any one of these calls could have occurred with the old refs. Folks remember Hochuli screwing up the overtime coin toss. It''s the consistently nonsensical calls, the total lack of control of the game, the fact that the outcome of any reasonably close game is no longer being determined by what happens on the field, that has rendered the NFL unwatchable. Time to take a stand and turn it off.

the qb roughing call on walden that nullified an interception was curious

the pass interference that got the seahawks out of first and forever was odd

the league has an advantage here in that the packers don't have a single owner of note capable of complaining and folks noticing

Not a football fan here but gotta weigh in after seeing the highlights. Just venting and forgive me if this ground has been covered;

1. I thought instant replay fixed everything. I'm confused.

2. I don't know who TJ Lang is but if I were a guard on a team that allowed my quarterback to get sacked 8 times in the first half I think I'd keep my trap shut about anyone else not doing their job properly.

The one real effect may be that even if these refs aren't significantly worse, they don't have the respect of the players/coaches, and so chaos has ensued.

jose

don't know if point 1 was sarcasm or not but on that last play they are not allowed to determine possession.

by my count neither lang nor sitton were responsible for any sacks. 3 were clearly on bulaga who was going against a rookie who only has a single move which is to fly off the edge. bulaga was destroyed last night and i think should have been benched briefly to get his head back in the game. 3 were on rodgers desperate to pass the ball deep which in that setting was dumb but that is how he is coached. one on newhouse. one on john kuhn the fullback.

last night you saw the best and worst of mccarthy.

mccarthy is ridiculously stubborn and desperate for big plays so in the first half despite the offensive line getting whipped, the seattle defense playing at fever pitch and the noise not helping the packers kept trying to throw the deep ball when every defense so far has put their safeties 20 yards down field and dare green bay to run the ball and/or dink and dunk.

mccarthy, after 10 quarters of being embarrassed, finally woke up the packers did what was needed and drove the ball down the field in the second half. but instead of scoring 17 points they got 12.

the green bay defense whipped the seattle offense most of the night as the seattle offensive line was overmatched in pass protection. their guys are good run blockers but can't move their feet in pass blocking. shame on dom capers only rushing three at the end and double shame on the one green bay guy for playing pattycake versus really rushing

Not allowing for review of who has the ball on a scoring play in football is inexplicable. I mean, either have video review or don't, but don't prevent it from actually determining something important. Apologies for posting the bloody obvious :)

I'm not especially a Packer fan, nor for that matter -- much of an NFL fan either... and 8 sacks in the first half certainly didn't help - but it's hard for me to see how that wasn't one of the most horrendous hose jobs in NFL history. It was more than just the last play, there were multiple critical calls that looked terribly blown.

I don't buy any grand conspiracies, but it sure seemed like the Packers were playing against the Seahawks AND the officials for most of the 4th quarter.

At this point, why bother with the regular season? Between NFL parity and the 'officiating' wildcard, might as well just draw 12 teams out of a hat, then have them roll dice to determine who plays in the Superbowl.

The one real effect may be that even if these refs aren't significantly worse, they don't have the respect of the players/coaches, and so chaos has ensued.

That's it, in a nutshell. They also seem unsure of themselves, and the reviews are more frequent, and taking longer.