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    • Thursday, April 04, 2013

    April 4, 2013 Omnichatter

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    posted on April 04, 2013 at 12:07 AM by Gamingboy to baseball, game recaps, omnichatter  |  271 comment(s)

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    1. AJM posted on June 09, 2012 at 07:54 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    It should be noted the Dodgers did not get a hit on June 28, 2008 against the Angels, but since the Dodgers won that game at home it is not recognized as a no-hitter since the Angels didn’t pitch nine innings.

    What the #### is that ####?
    2. thok posted on June 09, 2012 at 08:04 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'm amused that the least effective pitcher (Stephen Pryor) for Seattle ended up getting the win. That's going to be a fun trivia question: what pitcher won a no-hitter by pitching 1/3 of an inning and walking 2?
    3. TerpNats posted on June 09, 2012 at 08:57 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    AJM, call it the "Andy Hawkins rule."

    And since Millwood already has a no-hitter to his credit (2003 at the Vet), having to leave the game, while unfortunate, wasn't that big a deal for him given his health (and age).
    4. cercopithecus aethiops posted on June 09, 2012 at 09:36 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    call it the "Andy Hawkins rule."


    True, but didn't it also take away Pedro's five-inning perfect game?
    5. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 09, 2012 at 09:47 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0


    True, but didn't it also take away Pedro's five-inning perfect game?


    You're conflating two different lost no-hitters. Pedro threw nine perfect innings against San Diego with Montreal, but lost the perfect game, no-hitter and shutout in the 10th. A lesser Haddix, if you will.

    Boston's Devern Hansack pitched a five-inning, rain-shortened no-hitter on the final day of the season against the O's in 2006.

    All of the above were wiped out (either retroactively or in the future) during the great no-hitter purge of 1991.

    6. Guapo posted on June 09, 2012 at 09:50 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I had completely forgotten that Millwood had thrown a no-hitter before.
    7. bobm posted on June 09, 2012 at 10:16 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    On MLBN, Mitch Williams called a six pitcher no hitter after Millwood came out of the game last night.
    8. TerpNats posted on June 09, 2012 at 11:10 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Boston's Devern Hansack pitched a five-inning, rain-shortened no-hitter on the final day of the season against the O's in 2006.
    Dean Chance pitched a five-inning, rain-shortened perfecto for the Twins in 1967 (IIRC, it was against Cleveland).
    9. Howie Menckel posted on June 09, 2012 at 11:20 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0


    I think David Palmer lost a baby no-no (perfect?) as well
    10. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 09, 2012 at 11:54 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Besides the rain- or rule-shortened no-hitters and extra-inning contests that got excised, the other notable gem wiped out in 1991 was Ernie Shore's perfect game. Ruth walked the leadoff hitter, got tossed for arguing the call, and Shore replaced him. The leadoff runner was erased trying to steal, and then Shore set down the next 26 batters.

    For years, it was considered a perfect game. Now, it's merely a combined no-hitter.

    11. boteman posted on June 09, 2012 at 12:15 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    OK, I'll fall on my sword to find out: what happened in 1991 that affected no-hitters?

    You may now commence mirthful laughter.
    12. Kurt posted on June 09, 2012 at 12:39 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think there were quite a few rain shortened no-hitters that were reclassified by the rule change. I'm almost positive Melido Perez had one also.
    13. Johnny Slick posted on June 09, 2012 at 12:48 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Wasn't Melido Perez's no-no the one where the team behind him committed an error and led to his losing the game 4-0 or something like that? I think he might have just gone 8 as well a la Andy Hawkins.
    14. Gold Star - just Gold Star posted on June 09, 2012 at 12:54 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    OK, I'll fall on my sword to find out: what happened in 1991 that affected no-hitters?
    MLB decided a true no-no had to go at least 9 innings*, and had to end with no hits on the board**. The exact rhetoric: "A game in which a pitcher or pitchers complete a game of nine innings or more without allowing a hit;"

    * - Down go all the wx--shortened games.

    ** - Bye-bye, Kitten Haddix.
    15. Gamingboy posted on June 09, 2012 at 02:02 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Millwood and Friends, coming soon to a Saturday Morning near you!
    16. vortex of dissipation posted on June 09, 2012 at 02:07 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'm amused that the least effective pitcher (Stephen Pryor) for Seattle ended up getting the win. That's going to be a fun trivia question: what pitcher won a no-hitter by pitching 1/3 of an inning and walking 2?


    Not only that, but it's his first MLB win.
    17. asinwreck posted on June 09, 2012 at 03:26 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0


    OK, I'll fall on my sword to find out: what happened in 1991 that affected no-hitters?


    A pompous, stupid panel put together by Fay Vincent redefined no-hitters as games of nine innings or more that ended with no hits. This eliminated such wonderful games as the Andy Hawkins 0-4 no-hitter and Harvey Haddix's loss after 12 perfect innings from the record books.
    18. Dan posted on June 09, 2012 at 03:32 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I can understand taking out rain-shorted games, but an 8 inning no-hitter in a loss is a legitimate complete game.
    19. madvillain posted on June 09, 2012 at 03:35 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This is front page, "Japan Invades Pacific" style news here in Seattle. This town seems starved for a competitive baseball team. Maybe the M's will give it to them one of these years.
    20. Kiko Sakata  posted on June 09, 2012 at 03:36 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This eliminated such wonderful games as the Andy Hawkins 0-4 no-hitter and Harvey Haddix's loss after 12 perfect innings from the record books.


    As well as (half of) the only double no-hitter in MLB history: Hippo Vaughn v. Fred Toney (May 2, 1917 - BB-Ref/Retrosheet doesn't have box scores quite back that far or I'd link it)
    21. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 09, 2012 at 03:39 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I can understand taking out rain-shorted games, but an 8 inning no-hitter in a loss is a legitimate complete game.


    Yeah, I think that's the least defensible change (sadly, the Haddix game is the most defensible - he did allow a hit). Those guys threw as many no-hit innings as the rules allowed.


    22. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond posted on June 09, 2012 at 04:15 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think what the Vincent panel did was correct, but maybe that's just me.
    23. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 09, 2012 at 04:27 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I think what the Vincent panel did was correct, but maybe that's just me.


    In a vacuum, I'd say they were right on the extra-innings games (Haddix), wrong on the 8-inning losses (Hawkins) and I could go either way on the rain-shortened types (leaning yes).

    The bigger question is whether it was necessary. Was it really important for MLB to give its imprimatur on such things, or could it simply allow them to exist as they had for 100-plus years and let the fans determine what kind of significance to place on each type of performance? I'm not sure what purpose the official sanction served.
    24. Lassus posted on June 09, 2012 at 04:47 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This is front page, "Japan Invades Pacific" style news here in Seattle.

    I could be wrong, but I think any army on earth that invades the Pacific Ocean is going to lose, and badly.
    25. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:00 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    So you can't have a losing no-hitter on the road, and the news at the time was the players who were no longer credited with no hitters. You can still lose a no-hitter at home, though, right? Has that happened?
    26. Greg (U)K posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:29 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I could be wrong, but I think any army on earth that invades the Pacific Ocean is going to lose, and badly.

    Hey, Caligula fought the English Channel to a draw. I would think a modern army with tanks and stuff could do better.
    27. Greg (U)K posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:30 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I say, since when does Fay Vincent or a bunch of ninnies in a board room have control over something as sacred as a no-hitter?
    28. AJM posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:36 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    In a vacuum, I'd say they were right on the extra-innings games (Haddix), wrong on the 8-inning losses (Hawkins) and I could go either way on the rain-shortened types (leaning yes).

    That's my feeling.
    29. Ned Garvin: Male Prostitute posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:38 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    This should not be hard. Ask yourself this question:

    Did the team get a hit?

    If the answer is no, then a no-hitter has occurred. If the answer is yes, then a no-hitter has not occured.

    The number of innings is not relevant.
    30. Kurt posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:54 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Wasn't Melido Perez's no-no the one where the team behind him committed an error and led to his losing the game 4-0 or something like that? I think he might have just gone 8 as well a la Andy Hawkins.

    No. Oddly enough the pitcher he beat in his six inning no-hitter was...Andy Hawkins.
    31. Sweatpants posted on June 09, 2012 at 05:55 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    You can still lose a no-hitter at home, though, right? Has that happened?
    Yes. Ken Johnson lost one in 1964 on two ninth-inning errors (one his own).

    Edit: MLB.com lists the official no-hitters, and Johnson's is on there.
    32. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond posted on June 09, 2012 at 06:19 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Rain-shortened no-hitters are meteorological oddities - nothing more.
    33. bunyon posted on June 09, 2012 at 06:21 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Eh, I think throwing 9 innings of no-hit (or perfect) ball is what should count. We all are up in arms about pitching wins being credited with a lot of value; well, the fact that your team hasn't yet scores (or committed errors behind you) isn't on the pitcher.

    It may not be a true perfect game because he gave up a hit in the 10th, but what Pedro did that day is equally as impressive as what any of the other perfect pitchers did.
    34. cercopithecus aethiops posted on June 09, 2012 at 07:23 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I could be wrong, but I think any army on earth that invades the Pacific Ocean is going to lose, and badly.


    Well, how about a navy?
    35. bobm posted on June 09, 2012 at 07:32 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    [20] As well as (half of) the only double no-hitter in MLB history: Hippo Vaughn v. Fred Toney (May 2, 1917 - BB-Ref/Retrosheet doesn't have box scores quite back that far or I'd link it)

    ESPN Classic - Classic Box Score: May 2, 1917


    http://espn.go.com/classic/s/quiz/6/14.html#

    Reds 1, Cubs 0 (10 innings)

    Reds pitcher Fred Toney and Chicago hurler Hippo Vaughn each throw no-hitters through nine innings. Vaughn gives up two hits and a run in the 10th, but Toney is able to keep the Cubs hitless and scoreless in the bottom and the Reds win 1-0. It remains the only dual no-hitter in history.


    http://baseballcincy.com/2012/05/02/this-date-in-reds-history-may-2/
    36. Walt Davis posted on June 09, 2012 at 09:23 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    It remains the only dual no-hitter in history.

    Apparently ESPN didn't get the memo.

    I assume that if some guy pitches, say, 12 innings of perfect/no-hit ball then has to be lifted for a reliever who gives up a hit that we're not giving that first guy credit either.
    37. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 09, 2012 at 09:29 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Eh, I think throwing 9 innings of no-hit (or perfect) ball is what should count. We all are up in arms about pitching wins being credited with a lot of value; well, the fact that your team hasn't yet scores (or committed errors behind you) isn't on the pitcher.

    It may not be a true perfect game because he gave up a hit in the 10th, but what Pedro did that day is equally as impressive as what any of the other perfect pitchers did.


    And Kerry Wood's game was more impressive than the lot of them. But Kerry Wood's wasn't a no-hitter, and Pedro's wasn't a perfect game. I don't think the impressiveness of the feat is the issue. To me, Ned Garvin's question is at the heart of it. Pedro and Haddix gave up hits, thus they didn't pitch no-hitters.

    Of course, the official sanction is kind of meaningless. In baseball history, there is only one "perfect" pitching performance more well-known, more significant than Haddix's, and that's only because it happened in the World Series. How baseball classifies it is beside the point.

    I assume that if some guy pitches, say, 12 innings of perfect/no-hit ball then has to be lifted for a reliever who gives up a hit that we're not giving that first guy credit either.


    It's not us, it's MLB. But no, it's no longer considered a no-hitter.

    38. Ebessan posted on June 09, 2012 at 11:57 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'm going to come in and say that I don't like non-shutout no-hitters (so Ervin Santana's last year), and then quietly leave.
    39. SoSHially Unacceptable posted on June 10, 2012 at 12:03 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I'm going to come in and say that I don't like non-shutout no-hitters (so Ervin Santana's last year), and then quietly leave.


    I've asked this before, but I've never gotten an answer: Does the grating term "no-no" come from the idea of no hits/no runs, or is it just a horrible nickname for no-hitter with no other origin?

    40. The Long Arm of Rudy Law posted on June 10, 2012 at 01:42 AM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    Andy Hawkins had one start between his no-hitter loss and his loss in Melido Perez's no-hitter. In that one, he pitched a shutout for 11.2 innings and then lost.
    41. Karl from NY posted on June 10, 2012 at 11:07 PM #  hit 0 | hit 0

    I can understand taking out rain-shorted games, but an 8 inning no-hitter in a loss is a legitimate complete game.

    There's a somewhat legitimate argument for discounting this sort of no-hitter. Suppose the pitcher is pitching the bottom of the 8th, tied at 0-0, no hits for the home team yet. The pitcher actually has incentive to walk the bases full and a run in, to eliminate his ninth inning and the chance of losing the no-hitter then.

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