Monday, May 20, 2013
The Changing Gigantics of SF | Bill James Online
(www.billjamesonline.com)
Is this really true?
Read More...Baseball teams change at a glacial pace. I’m not talking about how a team does in a given season…that can change quite dramatically…I’m talking about what a team is: the broad scope of a team’s talents, their strengths and weaknesses. A team that’s good at converting a double play generally stays good at turning the double-play, just as a team with a terrible bullpen can’t make that bullpen a strength, at least not quickly. A team that gets lots of production ...
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1 2 >Not a truer sentiment has ever been posted on this site.
The counter arguement to this is that he wouldn't have had some of those hits if he wasn't breaking the rules (for PED's). If it was revealed that he had used a corked bat in every game, or had the groundskeeper install a short first base line for his AB's, then he still would have had to hit the ball and run, but he would not be adhering to the rules.
Whether the anti-PED clauses are good rules or not is a legitimate discussion, but everyone knows what the rules are.
Okay, but that's a really stupid argument.
That's enough to convince me that it must be.
* Lord only knows what poor Sean will do if they change the save rule at some point.
That was a weird one. To recap, for those unfamiliar, the rules used to be that for purposes of determining the ERA champion, partial innings were to be rounded to the nearest whole number. Thus, 1/3 would be rounded down, and 2/3 would be rounded up. The actual numbers from 1981:
McCatty - 185.2 IP, 48 ER 2.33 ERA
Stewart - 112.1 IP, 29 ER, 2.32 ERA
But when you add 1/3 IP to McCatty and subtract 1/3 from Stewart, you get 2.32 and 2.33 respectively. Thus, McCatty was recognized at the time as the champion. BBREF recognizes Stewart.
I'm not sure how Righetti figures into this. He didn't have enough innings to qualify, and AFAIK, was never recognized as the champion, and BBREF does not list him among the leaders.
I look forward to getting a chance to read the full article later.
Nothing changes with Melky's stats (or, obviously, the Giants' or their opponents'). He still hit .346. He just won't be recognized by MLB as the batting champion with that average.
The funny thing is, BB-ref will be stripping steroid-cheat Melky Cabrera of his 2012 NL Batting Championship and will present it instead to...Ryan Braun!
This is the first I'd heard of it either.
Wikipedia, FWIW, lists Dave Righetti as the leader, and their "source" is BB-REF....which tells me that at some point, BB-REF did state Righetti was the leader.
Except bb-ref isn't presenting it, they are just acknowledging what the MLB is saying is the winner.
Righetti pitched 105 innings, but the Yankees played 107 games, and thus not officially eligible. However, since some teams played 105 or fewer games (the Royals and Indians played 103), some pitches would be eligible with 105 IP, and maybe BBREF once recognized anyone with 103 IP or more as eligible.
Ding ding ding
If the saves rule is changed, I will likely respond with tears.
Ditto. Good call, Sean.
The most “recent” case is 1910 where Lajoie had a higher batting average than Cobb, but due to various shenanigans Cobb was given the batting title (though both got the winner’s promised automobile).
IMO that case was infinitely worse than any of the others, including Melky's. If I'd been Ban Johnson, I'd have voided every one of Lajoie's hits and given the batting championship to Cobb, with no further discussion. There's absolutely no reason why Lajoie should have been the beneficiary of a farce like the Browns pulled. Johnson did ban the Browns' manager and coach for life, but when he didn't void Lajoie's hits, he opened the way for Pete Palmer to lend legitimacy** to the idea that Lajoie was the actual batting champ.
**not that that was necessarily his intention, but that was the effect of revising Cobb's BA down, an adjustment that by itself was both benign and correct
Where did anyone say there wasn't precedent? There was precedent, and he listed what BB-ref did in the preceding cases.
Only if Braun heats up a whole lot in the last few games of the season; he'd have to pass Molina, Posey, and McCutchen, and two of those are at least 15 points ahead of him.
Don't forget Votto. He's currently at .338, but his 0 fers bring him down below Braun. But because of that, even a 1 for 5 brings his qualifying average up.
Bud Selig is an idiot.
You have absolutely no idea about that. None.
And what the penalties are. And this was not one of the penalties.
It's a not a penalty. He requested to withdraw voluntarily, and that request was granted to by MLB and the MLBPA.
But what happens if Melky writes you a letter next, requesting that you remove the batting title from his page? Will you oblige? :)
I wish the Pirates could withdraw from the September pennant chase. :(
I wrote about what the counter arguement is, not that I was advocating the counter arguement. I didn't want to get into this pissing match, but apparently you do. Whether PED's made a difference on any particular AB that Melky had this year is difficult to prove and is not the point. Just like it is difficult to prove a corked bat helped turn an out into a hit, but the batter found using a corked bat is called out.
"I have no wish to win an award that would be tainted. I believe it
would be far better for someone more deserving to win. I asked the Players Association and the league to take the necessary steps to remove my name from consideration for the National League batting title.
"I am grateful that the Players Association and MLB were able to
honor my request by suspending the rule for this season. I know that changing the rules mid-season can present problems, and I thank the Players Association and MLB for finding a way to get this done."
Batting averages can stay in the records, for historical reasons. Melky would keep his black ink, which would remain every bit as prestigious as leading the league in triples or plate appearances or hit-by-pitch.
Actually, we do have an idea, but it's beside the point. He cheated in the midst of "achieving" his .346 average.(*) You don't reward cheating. You penalize it -- harshly. This is understood in practically every other sport.
Other sports expunge the "accomplishments" of PED users from the record books -- that's the precedent to which I'm alluding.
(*) And, as I noted in the other thread, Cabrera only conditionally hit .346, just as the Belarussian woman only conditionally finished first in the 2012 Olympic shot put. The condition failed.
Withdraw from what?
Consideration for an honor he knows he doesn't deserve.
And as I've been pointing out in other threads, MLB isn't expunging anything. Every hit made by Melky stands; the runs he scored count against pitchers' ERAs, and the ones he drove in count as Runs Scored for his teammates; the Giants' victories stand. The only "expunging" being done is in terms of the extreme sophistication of pretending not to see with one eye what you're officially counting with the other.
Now, it's obviously more than OK for MLB to dock Melky some pay, sit his ### down, and prevent him from getting any of the little perks that might come with being named Batting Champion, if there are any, like making him go to bed without ice cream and not allowing him to take Ellen Blonsky to the Fall Mixer or borrow the car past ten o'clock. The rules are the rules. But nobody's expunging.
Sean, if this happens, I hope you'll have a whole section of the site devoted to showing that the saves rule is bogus and against the interest of baseball. Have a page where a random reliever's photo pops up and we can throw virtual darts at it.
The NFL didn't take away Brian Cushing's sacks.
And it's ludicrous - as BDC explains - to suggest this is about "cheating." If those hits weren't real and fairly earned, then the runs driven in with them, and the runs he subsequently scored, were not real and fairly earned, and the resulting wins were not real and fairly earned. And yet the Giants continue to get the benefit of all of them, to the point that they're going to the playoffs. That's a far bigger undeserved "honor."
Citing the NFL as an example of anything but rank incompetence & corruption is probably not a very good idea.
IMO, Sean should reply with a polite letter back with the explanation he gives above. As I understand what Sean says above, Cabrera will not be listed as the "Batting Champion", but as the player with the highest batting average in the NL - and both of those will reflect the actual situation.
-- MWE
I too am thinking about writing a letter stating that I am not the batting champion.
Not all of the Olympic Games. Wrestlers have had medals stripped due to drug usage, but FILA didn't redo any Olympic draws to allow the wrestlers they defeated back in the competition. (They couldn't, since the competitions had already concluded when any tainted results were discovered.) In that way, they're being consistent with the Melky situation. What happened on the field (or on the mat) stands, but any resulting awards from those actions can be removed.
Precisely, and this is why the comparisons to individual sports like track and field and cycling don't make sense. Individual sports can expunge records all they like because those records affect only the individual. But as long as professional team sports don't require forfeits when a team uses a player who is in violation of the rules, then penalizing said players while leaving their team's records intact makes little sense.
-- MWE
EDIT: Gary's point in #45 is duly noted.
That makes no sense. His batting average happened. It's fact. And the "fix" to this imaginary problem is cartoonish.
I really don't see what the problem is. He tested positive during a year in which he won the batting title. So?
And while Braun is not likely to catch him, the silliness of this can be easily seen by what would happen if Braun did catch him. Or if Posey fails a test. Or if any number of things happen with future races with respect to suspensions and what not. What if this happens next year - Jeter wins the batting title but fails a steroids test and then refuses to withdraw? It's a can of worms that has no need to be opened up. There's wasn't any problem before, but there is one now. Silliness abounds.
Just make sure that they include a Certificate of Authenticity.
Right. In baseball, no one's expunging. In other sports, they are.
Michigan played with ineligible players in the 1993 NCAA basketball tournament, but you can't go back and replay the games with them not in the tournament. So you do the best you can by vacating their wins and wiping them from the record books.(*) Such is life.
(*) The school, to its eternal credit, actually did more than the NCAA required. The Fab Five have been vaporized from the school's basketball history, as have the 1992 and 1993 seasons. No banners, no mention. They happened -- I saw them -- but they didn't really happen. Simple.
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